Being muslim..

[Al-Kashmiri]

:salam2:
Akhi and Ukhti dont worry you both are correct i think its just that you two are looking at things differently. I think sister is correct cuz to me fitrah or haneef here means simple monotheism and that people are born monotheists and with a tendency to follow the will of God and this is the base of Islam and Islam as a way of leading life is to be learned as sister said. We are not born learned. We gradually learn the deen but the basic monotheism and the belief in oneness of God is there from birth. Fitrah doesnt tell you how to perform salaah and how much zakaat you have to pay and how to fast, which month etc. etc. All this you learn gradually

Take care,
Ma'assalaam

JazaakAllah khayr. It is not about me or the sister or you being correct. What matters is the ijmaa` of ahl ul-`ilm (after the Qur'aan and sunnah). And like i said, it supports my view (unless you can show me with authoritive `ilm, without saying "I think"). I'm just waiting for the evidence for the opposing view.

Haneef means monotheistic but refers to the way of Islaam, look back at the ayah. Shaykh At-Tamimi famously said "That Hanifiyyah is the way of Ibraheem, it is to worship Allaah alone, making the deen sincerely for him" So what is making the deen sincerely for him. Likewise in the fatwa the Shaykh (Al-Barraak) inclined to the same opinion. As does Ibn Kathir and those he narrated upon in his tafsir etc.

Akhi, I did not at all say we were born learned. However there is a BIG difference between being born learned and being born Muslim. Just because the former isn't the case, it doesn't mean the same applies for the latter. That is, because we aren't born learned it doesn't mean we are not Muslim. No rather we were born upon the fitrah, which is Islaam, "Laa tabdeela likhalqillaah!"

"So set your face towards the religion..." - Islaam
"...as a haneef..." - To worship none but Allaah
"Allaah's fitrah with which he created mankind." - I think it's clear.

Look back at the fatwa I quoted and I ask this, what did the Shaykh say? He said that the meaning of fitrah is Islaam, it goes inline with the ayah.

Islaam is based upon the Qur'aan, the sunnah, the ijmaa`, not a lay man's opinion. This is why I have quoted evidence from the aforementioned sources. However, all I'm asking for is the daleel of the other side, because in my research it doesn't seem to exist among the people of sunnah and knowledge, and it doesn't agree with the aforementioned ayah (or at least this tafsir of it). It is also in opposition to the second hadeeth (the qudsi hadith seems crystal clear, we were created haneefs and shaytaan mislead some of us from our religion; so is Islaam other than that religion Allaah mentioned?), from what is apparent.

When I initially made my statement, and the sister made hers, I asked for where this understanding comes from. Alhamdulillaah, may Allaah reward her she gave me somewhere to check back. However it is not enough and isn't strong enough for me to except, as it hasn't been expressed. I've done my share and brought the proofs in many ways (for this position). I could type up the full tafsir of the ayah, but that would be lengthly and probably pointless, since it may be somewhat redundant.

 

[Mohsin]

Assalamu-alaikum

:salam2:
Akhi i think there is a confusion or manybe some misunderstanding because we are confusing a state of being with practices ans rituals. I agree with this completely that a child is born monotheist ( haneef ), i agree to it completely but when we say Islam as a complete way of life, bro then its these practices and rituals that are to be learned,

Ibrâhim was neither a Jew nor a Christian, but he was a true Muslim Hanifa (Islâmic Monotheism - to worship none but Allâh alone) and he was not of Al-Mushrikûn (67)
Aal-e-Imran

So i was saying that every child is born on fitrah, Islamic belief, haneef i.e. Islâmic Monotheism - to worship none but Allâh alone and this is the fitrah and i said in my previous post that you are talking about this belief with whcih a child is born and its the simple Islamic belief

Now about sisters view, she is looking at Islam in terms of practices as are prescribed to the Muslims by Allah SWT

Umar Ibn Al-Khattab reports: One day when we were with Allah's Messenger (saw), a man with very white clothing and very black hair came up to us. No mark of travel was visible on him, and none of us recognized him. Sitting down beside the Prophet (saw), leaning his knees against his and placing his hands on his thighs, he said: “Tell me, Muhammad, about Islam.” He replied: “Islam means that you should testify that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad (saw) is Allah's Messenger, that you should observe the prayer, pay the Zakat, fast during Ramadan, and make the pilgrimage to the House if you are able to go there.” He said: “You have spoken the truth.” We were surprised at his questioning him and then declaring that he spoke the truth. He said: “Now tell me about Iman.” He replied: “It means that you should believe in Allah (swt), His angels, His books, His messengers, and the Last Day, and that you should believe in the decreeing both of good and evil.” Remarking that he had spoken the truth, he then said: “Now tell me about Ihsan.” He replied: “It means that you should worship Allah (swt) as though you see Him, for He sees you though you do not see Him.” He said: “Now tell me about the Hour.” He replied: “The one who is asked about it is no better informed than the one who is asking.” He said: “Then tell me about its signs.” He replied: “That a maid-servant should beget her mistress, and that you should see barefooted, naked, poor men and shepherds exalting themselves in buildings.” [Umar] says: He then went away, and after I had waited for a long time, [the Prophet] said to me: “Do you know who the questioner was, Umar?” I replied: “Allah and His Messenger know best.” He said: “He was Gabriel who came to you to teach you your religion.”
(Muslim)

Though the simple Islamic belief - to worship none but Allâh alone is what a child is born with but Islam as practices and rituals is to be learned.

Ma'assalaam

 

[samiha]

:salam2:

I think this thread is going off topic. We cannot accept anyone else's opinion if it goes against the Qur'an or Sunnah. In this matter, brother Al-Kashmiri is right, and he has provided evidences to back his claim, along with the explanations of scholars; I do not see why there would be confusion afterwards.

A child is born a Muslim. That's all there is to it. They are in submission to the complete monotheism of Allah (swt) and therefore perhaps more Muslim then some of us! . The duties of Islam are not obligatory upon them; they are only children! For us, who are now given guidance and see the truth and are now able to understand, we must follow through with our actions, yet in this we are just following that innate original fitrah given to us.

I'm not sure if that makes sense, but if anyone would like, they may refer to this thread:

The Definition of Fitrah

Hamza Yusuf is not a scholar. He is a Sufi and upon deviences. We must take sources from the actual scholars of Islam. He has been recorded to have said:
"This concern with `aqeedah is a sickness in the minds of the Muslims", and "I can go to the desert in Mauritania and learn Tawheed in five minutes"

Tawheed and Aqeedah sicknesses? May Allah forgive him. Without those two fundamental blocks, what is Islam?

I don't want to comment further on these subjects, yet this is only to warn and insha'allah, keep ourselves away from misguidance.

From the Admin:

I edited the video because Hamza Yusuf and people from Zaytuna are not permitted on this website. I do not want to go into big discussion or argument over these things, but it is important that we only seek knowledge from those who follow the Quran and Sunnah. People who have sound Aqeedah.

Unfortunately these people (Zaytuna, Hamza Yusuf etc) have grave errors in Aqeedah, matters of belief in Allah. They are Sufi. They do not believe in Allah's attributes like a Muslim should. They twist the meanings of the Quran and do not believe in them literally. They practise evil acs of of worshipping graves, asking help from the dead such as their Sufi saints etc.

believe in erroneous beliefs such as Wahdatul Wujood (everyone has part of Allah in them, and Allah is part of his creation) and other Sufi things.

Oh and they partake in those trance sufi dances and dhikr sessions. These are innovations in our Religion. We only Worship Allah (subhana wa ta'ala) as the Prophet worshippeded him.

As for Hamza Yusuf he often says modernist and unIslamic statements, for example he said that all the firefighters who died in the twin towers were shaheed, as tragic as it may have been, they were not Shaheed. A Shaheed is a Muslim who dies in the way of Allah.

Also, he stated every religion (including Hinduism) has some truth. I remember he stated that on a show on arabic satellite TV station MBC. How can polytheist religion have any truth? Astaghfriullah.

Hamza Yusuf is very popular in the West, partly because of the limelight that the US and UK establishment gives him and people of similar modernist viewpoints. They dilute the true Islam, and present their own modernist corrupted interpretations. This is why the establishment likes them.

Islam is always the middle way, we are against all forms of terrroism, hatred and violence against people. We are on correct way by following the Quran and Sunnah. By sticking to Islam as the Prophet and his companions followed. There is no room in Islam for these Sufi modernist groups just as there is no room for extremists and other evil people.

Furthermore, it is important for people to hold on to the true beliefs a Muslim must have. Make your foundations firm. The only reason Muslims are weak in this day and age is because they have neglected understanding Tawheed, understanding what a Muslims belief must be. Tawheed and Aqeedah are the most important things a Muslim must know. From this foundation other things grow and is the only way for our success and unity.

Importance of Tawheed in Reviving the Ummah

Why Muslims are Weak Today

Fundamental Beliefs in Islam Tawheed and Aqeedah

Wasalam.

Now if enough has been said...

Thread Closed.

(sis, if you feel that some of your latter questions were not addressed properly, please create a new thread )

wasalam