Dialogue with a Trinitarian

Discussion in 'Muslim <---> Christian Dialogue' started by عبد الواحد الصقلي, Apr 8, 2014.

  1. عبد الواحد الصقلي
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    In the Name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful​

    What follows is a short debate took place between myself and a student of Economics (University of Bologna) follower of Giacinto Auriti, an Italian lawyer, essayist, politician and a fervent Catholic who became famous for his monetary theory on seigniorage and the many public initiatives led against private banking system and the Bank of Italy. This debate clearly shows the complete inconsistency and groundlessness of the arguments of the Catholic and his hatred for the truth. Muslims regard Jesus Christ as a Servant of God, His Messenger, and His Word, which He bestowed on the Chaste Virgin Mary and a Spirit created by Him. He is held in honor in this world and in the hereafter, and will be one of those who are near to God. In addition, Muslims describe Jesus Christ just as God does; they neither exaggerate in his status like the Christians, nor do they demean him like the Jews.

    Muslim: Auriti says: «We have a mathematical certainly that Christ is truly the Son of God.» We have a mathematical certainly that Christ is the Son of God because Christ is the Son of God! A tautology follows from all propositions: it says nothing.

    Trinitarian: Well it's clear that you don't read all the words, Auriti do not make any tautology as you declare, maybe you have to read the words better.

    Muslim: In the Gospel we read that Christ is the Son of God. The Auriti's conclusion is that Christ is the Son of God because Christ is the Son of God. The premise and conclusion are the same. There is no difference between the two at all! The term 'Son of God' means that Christ is not God. God gave each of us reasoning and logic. Your Bible is altered and full of contradictions. A rational mind just can't fail to recognize that.

    Trinitarian: 1. the term son of God means that Christ is God himself. 2. the Son and the Father are One, nobody knows the Father only the son, the son is from the same nature of the Father, the son is the biblical word wich from the Father or Primary Cause not caused by anything make all things, that is rational because of energy space and time, consciuousness (God) has to make all things from the son, and the son is theperfect imprint of the Father, the Son and the Father are One, cannot be anything else

    Muslim: Peace be upon on who follows the right path. You have no knowledge [of Him], nor had your forefathers. Exalted is God and high above what you associate [with Him].

    Trinitarian: Look better you aren't right in what you try to say. I say this: God is human, God is consciousness (I am who I am), not energy, not matter, not space, not time, but consciousness. So if a man live the consciousness of God, how can you possibly say that's not possible? and this man was God himself because he live the consciousness of God, he is the Christ because he lived entirely what you are also, so God became human in Jesus Christ, and if you denied, I'm sorry you are not in the truth

    Muslim: You do not have any evidence; Christ never claimed to be God! You follow nothing but conjecture, and conjecture is of no use against the truth. Exalted is God, above anything that men may devise by way of definition!

    Trinitarian: Let be clear, I have the evidence of the human being, and the gospel, I am right certainly with the truth and evidence, I'm right. If you don't understand what I I wrote you don't know God just for nothing, because God and human being are not separate. Human being has spirit, soul and consciousness and body, there is a reason for all that. Exalted is God in Christ, in the living human is the glory of God

    Muslim: Your claim that the Divine Entity is the Word of God, which is united with the human entity, is totally false for the following reasons: 1) This Word is God or an attribute of His Divine Entity. 2) Or that this Word is not His Divine Entity or one of His Attributes. 3) Or that it is the Attribute and the Entity together. If it is not God or one of His Attributes, it must be a created thing separate that is from Him. And if the Word is the Divine Entity or an Attribute of God, then it is the Lord of the Universe. It represents the Father in Christian theology. If that word is an attribute of God, then the attribute of God in itself is not the Creating Lord. In addition to that, an attribute of God is dependent on His Entity and cannot be separated from Him, incarnated with Him, or united to another entity.You do not have any textual or rational evidence. You do not have any reliable authentic transmission from Christ concerning the exact wordings of the Bible. Indeed, you believe in a religion innovated by your religious leaders. You have taken your scholars and monks, as well as the Christ, the son of Mary, for your lords beside God. And you were not commanded except to worship one God, besides whom none has the right to be worshiped. Exalted is God and high above what you associate [with Him].

    "Jesus felt pure and calmly thought

    Only the One God;

    Who made himself to be a god

    Offends his holy will.

    And thus the right(ness) has to shine

    What Muhammad also achieved;

    Only by the term of the One

    He mastered the whole world"

    (West-östlicher Divan)

    O Christ-worshipers! We want an answer!
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 8, 2014
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  2. Cariad
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    What answer could any Christian give that you as a Muslim would ever be happy with? There is none. :) you should listen to your Christian.. He speaks from a knowledge of his belief and if you were interested at all in understanding why he believes such then you would have an open heart. I am guessing you only wish to refute him and show him to be in error, in doing this you may seem to bolster your own belief in Islam being the right way and the only way. This is not so.. It is your way and the way of millions of muslims. God has revealed Himself in His Glory to others in different ways which you should respect. There is no right or wrong way...only Gods way. Which maybe different to each of us.

    Make peace with yourself. If you are happy with your belief that is good leave others to theirs.
  3. AsSiqilli
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  4. massi
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  5. Mabsoot
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    Why does he wear a balaclava on his head? Seems really strange and possibly scares a lot of people away.
  6. massi
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    :D I don't know , but I think he is an atheist ! The video is a bit funny as how to explain the trinity to no-Christian !
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  7. sister herb
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    I think he uses it because he doesn´t want that his friends will recognize him making kind of videos full of nonsense.

    o_O
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  8. TheSyd
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    In the 1800 the Unitarians attacked the traditional Christian view of the Trinity. They built universities and had their own experts in ancient languages. There followed decades of debates, articles, counter articles, books, etc. In the end, the Unitarian conceded that the Bible taught the Trinity. Instead of abandoning their version of monotheism however, they abandoned the Bible. Unitarian accepted all sacred writings as containing some truth about God.
    The point though is, don't mock Trinitarian theology as being not well thought out, or poorly documented. It has been examined and debated by our best and brightest for 2000 years. There are some very good minds who completely accept the Bible's teaching on the Trinity
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  9. massi
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    :rolleyes: who cares about Unitarians or anyone else while the truth is very obvious. The trinity comes from pagan religions , and the bible has no relationship with it . You need to read the history of the councils which shaped the Christianity of nowadays. start with the council of Nicaea by the Roman Emperor Constantine I in AD 325.;)
  10. sister herb
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    We don´t mock anybody´s religions here but better to remember that we are not here to discuss about them. This is discussion forum about Islam.

    Only what we can do for them is to help them (if they come here) to understand better the only right path to live - Islam.
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  11. Cariad
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    I think he wears a balaclava because maybe he is embarrassed and did not want his friends or family to know he is possibly a fool and not a very funny one.
  12. Cariad
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    Why the need to explain the trinity? For those without spiritual discernment to understand it or for those who do not believe it.. No point. I never met a muslim who could explain the concept of Tawheed to me.. But it does not matter .. Because muslims accept it by faith.
  13. Cariad
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    Hello Sister Herb. Hope you are well. :) are you still cooking delicious food to tempt the tastebuds. :D
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  14. sister herb
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    Yes I am fine and busy with cooking but I think this comment is totally off topic. :rolleyes:

    Funny how every of my comments will bring sweet things to others mind...
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  15. Cariad
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    Ha.. Yes, off topic. But thinking of nice food is more productive than discussions on the trinity. :) and certainly more pleasurable. For me Lent is almost finished and I shall resume eating the sweet things, yet now I have no yearning for them. I will have to check out your sweet recipes and get my "yearning" back :D
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  16. jennifer_709
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    .. This site can help you better understand the Trinity, Jesus is one in all, He's God, the holy spirit, and the son!

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