Hello.

[Cariad]

Hi Cariad, be patient and I will be your teacher!


Since I am an Arabic guy and I master the language, no one can fool me with my language.
I have copied these 2 paragraphs from that link:

"Remember, this is a name, a proper noun. In this case, since there is no equivalent, we had better keep it as is (note: the Jews never changed YHWH�s name to �Adonai�, meaning �Lord�. They simply substituted �Adonai� for it when reading aloud, initially out of not wanting to desecrate the sacred Name, but later out of tradition)
�..
In summary, ArabBible uses the definite, common noun, �al-ilaah� to refer to God, rather than the Islamic proper noun, �Allah�. We believe this is based on good Biblical and linguistic precedents. Though this will certainly cause some shock waves�
�.."
The second part is not right. The Arabic Christian believe the name of their god is "Allah". So if you as a Christian do not believe in Allah as a name of your creator then you are contradicting your fellow Arabic Christian. I think you must know how Allah is written in Arabic. Read the link below from a page in the Arabic Bible and see how many times have been mentioned:
http://www.injeel.com/Read.aspx?vn=1,3&t=1

Also you can try the dictionary of the Aramaic language on line, Jesus's language, write the word god and read the results:
http://www.atour.com/ go down a little in the page to see the dictionary window


About the first part, pls read these 2 articles in the links:
http://www.answering-christianity.com/allah1.htm and
http://www.answering-christianity.com/moongod1.htm

Also I have a question for you: Is that easy to change the words of god in the Bible by people? And you still call it the word of God


Exodus 20:07 "You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name".

Also the word "YHWH" are 4 capital letters, this way is not used in the English language, which it means they are abbreviations of something, or just a simple.



The concept of Trinity is very easy to be understood. The Amazing thing about Christians is that: the Jews (who believe in Moses), Sabea Mandae (who believe in John) and Muslims (who believe in Mohammed), they are all on the opposite of you in their concepts of faith.


Which verse(s)?


Y not, an academic one


Thats fine for me... You can call me for Christianity, but I need a book that has not been changed by mankind to follow ((This is my condition)).

Peace to you
BRMM

Salaam Alaikom, we make assumptions about each other, ya. hope you are not offended by the link as not all muslims have Arabic I speak some but writing not so good. I don't know how you work those quotes in posts so I will try and address your points as made.

Firstly the name. What's in a name? Yahweh used by Hebrews to mean God..not name of God. Jehovah is a mistranslation of Hebrew. Yahweh is the secret name of the Jews revealed to Moses. El is the head of the Babylonian Gods (Elohim; plural for God. Meaning the "Gods.")

El, made a covenant with the Jews and in doing so they promised to worship only him in exchange for some land. Originally the Jews were Henotheistic. They worshiped one god out of many.
You will find God called by many more names in the bible. In many cases these are compounds of 'El."
"El the great." "El the mighty." and so on.

Eloi's actual meaning is "My God" "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" which means, "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?" I have never heard Eloi spelled Aloi..so you see it as Allah. But even that is the case Allah is not name but title, meaning God. Do you think God needs to be called by name? God knows himself and he knows who is true to him not by what name they call him by but how they perceive him in their hearts.

�Jehovah� is the best known English pronunciation of the divine name but is not correct. �Yahweh� is favored by most Hebrew scholars. The oldest Hebrew manuscripts present the name in the form of four consonants, commonly called the Tetragrammaton (from Greek te‧tra-, meaning �four,� and gram′ma, �letter�). These four letters when transliterated into English as YHWH (or, JHVH). The Hebrew consonants of the name are therefore known, but which vowels are to be combined with those consonants? Vowel points did not come into use in Hebrew until the second half of the first millennium also because of a religious superstition that had begun centuries earlier, the vowel pointing found in Hebrew manuscripts does not provide the key for determining which vowels should appear in the divine name. So it is commonly represented by the four consonants YHWH.

Your question why we trust the Bible, easy answer because God promised he would keep the scriptures safe. It doesn't matter how many people penned the words those words were penned under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Gods promise is good enough for me and you cannot prove the claims you make.

Regarding the divinity of Christ New Testament is full of references to the divinity of Christ.
(Titus 2:13) (Philippians 2:5-8) (Hebrews 1:8). Jesus is directly referred to as the Creator Himself (John 1:3; Colossians 1:16-17). Other biblical passages teach Christ's deity (Revelation 1:7, 2:8; 1 Corinthians 10:4; 1 Peter 5:4).

By His actions (Mark 2:3-12). Jesus also receives worship several times in the Gospels (Matthew 2:11, 28:9, 17; Luke 24:52; John 9:38; 20:28).

By fulfilment of prophecy. (1 Corinthians 15:3-7; Matthew 28:9; Luke 24:36-43; John 20:26-30, 21:1-14; Acts 1:3-6). Many of these witnesses were willing to die for this belief, and several of them did!

There is not a book on earth which has been penned by men that will not bear the mark of men. You make the claim for the Quran yet how can you prove? It has to be a matter of faith. How do you know that the Quran is unchanged as Mohammed gave it? What is the destruction of the Uthman Qurans, possible something was lost. One only has ones faith in God that the essence of his word is true. God is not in a book he writes his message on the hearts of men he guides where he wills.

 

[Cariad]

Sister Cariad, Assalam-o-alikum, Peace be upon you,

As you and I agree that discussing name is not important. It is a fruitless discussion and waste of energy in writing the posts. Last year I met a official of a Jehovah witness church. He was very adamant about the name Jehovah. He said all other names are incorrect and only Jehovah is the right name. I said OK, and asked him to pronounce a couple of middle eastern names... He couldn't pronounce any one of them correctly. So I said to him "You couldn't pronounce any of these names correctly and yet you are telling me that your European tongue can speak this middle-eastern name of God most accurately?". He couldn't answer. I then said "Here in US we say Japan, in India-Pakistan they say Jaa-Paan, in Arab world they say Al-Aiyabaan, and the Japanese people call their country name as Nee-phon (or a similar sound). And if you call Jesus when he was around he would not have turned towards you as his name was Yeshue or Eshue or Eessa, he would never have recognized as Jasus as hid name. And here you are stuck on the sound coming from your own mouth as the only correct sound for God Almighty's name."
I then said to him "If I have to chose a name it will be Allah as this is the name in Quran and in Hebrew they refer God as Ellohim (Christians prefer to write this name with E instead of A) and in this name Elloh (or Alloh) is the name and "him" is for respect. And in Matthew 27:46 Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?". In older version of Bibles it was written Alloi but lately it is written with E.

Having said all this, I believe this is not a very beneficial point to discuss. And I will end my part of discussion by saying that when the concept of God will be in place then all other things will also fall in right places.

Now, the main discussion: Sister I hope you will not get offended as I do not mean to offend anyone but I have to say what is needed. And if you do get offended then I apologize in advance.

As far as the original sin and blood atonement is concerned, you are wrong sister that this existed before Paul. I know Christians try to stretch some verses of OT to try to prove these points. You see this is the beauty of human mind. We see it happening all the times in the court rooms when lawyers try to stretch and shrink interpretation of laws to fit so that a guilty person can go free or vise versa. Same thing Christians do... In the presence of clear and unambiguous verses they prefer to take some ambiguous verses and then stretch them to try to fit for their purpose.
In Old Testament it is written:
Ezekiel 18:19 �Yet you ask, �Why does the son not share the guilt of his father?� Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live.
Ezekiel 18:20 The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.

And if we look at what Jesus says even in these existing Gospels which we don't know who wrote (sister don't get upset as this is true) this whole concept of original sin and blood atonement just vanishes.

If these two things were the most important things for which Jesus came then he pretty much failed to communicate it.
When he was asked �Of all the commandments, which is the most important?� He didn't say my blood atonement will remove your sin. Instead he said: "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength."

When he was asked �Good teacher,� what must I do to inherit eternal life?�
Jesus said: �Why do you call me good? No one is good�except God alone. You know the commandments: You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, you shall not defraud, honor your father and mother."

In this respect Jesus really goofed didn't he? He blew away the perfect opportunities to tell the world that he came to remove the original sin by blood atonement and people needed to believe in it in order to get salvation. But he didn't tell anyone that.

Instead what he told them:
In Matthew 15 Jesus did not want to help a gentile woman.
Matthew 15:22 A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, �Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.�
Matthew 15:23 Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, �Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.�
Matthew 15:24 He answered, "I was sent only to help God's lost sheep--the people of Israel."
Matthew 15:25 The woman came and knelt before him. �Lord, help me!� she said.
Matthew 15:26 He replied, �It is not right to take the children�s bread and toss it to the dogs.�
Matthew 15:27 �Yes it is, Lord,� she said. �Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master�s table.�
Matthew 15:28 Then Jesus said to her, �Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.� And her daughter was healed at that moment.

This is the God Almighty who was sent only to the Jews. And a woman softens his heart by saying �Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master�s table.� Some 'sacrificial lamb' ... Haan!

Then when he sends his disciples:
Matthew 10:5 These twelve (disciples) Jesus sent out with the following instructions: �Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans.
Matthew 10:6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.


And as per your Gospels Jesus said the following (and these are just samples):
Matthew 10:34-37
Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn �a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law, a man�s enemies will be the members of his own household.� Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

Luke 14:26 If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.

Luke 22:36 He said to them, �But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don�t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.

Why I presented these verses and other quotations from Jesus above is to show that how clearly Jesus has expressed things. This shows that he certainly knew how to forcefully say things. But the things which were most important, millions of times more important, which was the key reason for which he was here, as no one can get salvation until that person believes that Jesus was son of god and believe on the original sin and blood sacrifice (as per church and Paul). Jesus didn't make any clear statement about these things. If this was the key reason for which he was here then instead of making unambiguous and crystal clear statements on other not so important subjects he would have and should have made unambiguous and crystal clear statements on original sin and blood atonement, so that Christians wouldn't have to struggle and twist and turn and stretch other ambiguous and non related statements to try to fit.

And if Jesus was god, then who was he praying to?
Matthew 26:39 Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."

So my dear sister, read Quran where you will find your creator and His words. You don't need to buy one. Just go to this website where it has Quran and the explanation of verses also.
http://www.tafheem.net/tafheem.html
(This is a Quran explanation website. One nice feature is the "Intro" button which provides the background of each Surah/Chapter).

And this site is where you can read the background and life history of our Prophet Mohammad (PBUH)
http://mohammad.islamway.com/
(This website appears like a book and provides the life history of Prophet Mohammad (PBUH).)

Peace.

Salaam Alaikom Munawar.

I'm thinking the issue of names is done now, ya. I tend to be in agreement that the same name can be portrayed differently in different tongues but the meaning is the same, which is important point. If I were you I would not take to much account on Jehovah's witnesses, they interpret the scriptures in their own way. Which is not always mainstream belief. That is their business and they will answer for themselves. I believe God judges by intentions and will forgive if a persons intentions were good but they were misguided.

I am not offended by your words, you mean well by them. I can only use as my reference the Holy Bible which is quite clear that God of Old Testament and Torah did require Blood sacrifice to cover for sin. Abraham was asked to sacrifice his son Isaac. But where you are wrong this sacrifice that Christ gave for us, his blood as the sinless lamb of God was not that we are absolved of sin, we are all each responsible of our own sin and will be judged by almighty God and by his Grace and love may receive salvation. God is Holy, every sin we commit is a wound to him, it creates a veil between us, because of Gods love for us he removes that veil by the blood atonement on our behalf..through Christ. So we can have relationship with God. Otherwise we all fall,short of his glory.

Jesus prayed to God.. as we all do. God is the father there is no one greater than he, it makes sense to me as I have read over the years three coexist in essence each being part of the whole..not separate individuals. How else does God demonstrate his love for us? To love one has to know love a unitary entity cannot know love, I believe God, Christ and the Holy Spirit coexist in all eternity in a community of love, which we can be part of. I know this is hard for you to read, sorry for that.

I don't ever belief Jesus "goofed" as you say. Why do you think Jesus taught in parables? Yes he could have said the words direct and said Mohammed would come after him to redo all he had said and done. He did not, because he did Gods will, the speaking in parables means people have to think for themselves and reason for themselves and understand for themselves. When that happens one knows that the truth is found. It is never a struggle to search for the truth and when you have it you know in your heart that's you have a great treasure that is yours.

I have read the Quran, I have a copy on the shelf next to my Bible. Personally I did not find God as I understand him to be in the Quran. I thought maybe that I needed to be shown how to interpret it by a scholar or something then I thought if that were so and the message within could not be easily found then it was maybe not the right message.

Thank you all for the time you take replying to my posts. It has been interesting for me so far.

Peace and blessings.

 

[Cariad]

Can I ask a question here? It is about your perception of Allah. I do not want to break rules or upset people here. I never have had answer to this question which has always been a puzzle for me tho I ask it many times.

 

[Munawar]

Can I ask a question here? It is about your perception of Allah. I do not want to break rules or upset people here. I never have had answer to this question which has always been a puzzle for me tho I ask it many times.

Sister Cariad, Assalam-o-alikum,

Sister you didn't answer the points I raised, but I will answer your this question.

The best definition of Allah (SWT) is given in Quran itself. So I will quote several verses from different chapters of Quran. Our perception of Allah comes from Quran as this is the book of Allah (SWT) Himself.

Allah says in chapter Al-Ikhlas:
112:1 Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
112:2 Allah, the Eternal, Absolute (Who is in need of none and of Whom all are in need);
112:3 He begets not, and neither is He begotten;
112:4 And there is nothing that could be compared with Him.


Allah says in chapter Al-Hadid:
57:1 All that is in the heavens and the earth glorifies Allah; and He is the Mighty, the Wise.
57:2 His is the kingdom of the heavens and the earth; He gives life and causes death; and He has power over all things.
57:3 He is the First and the Last, and the Manifest and the Hidden, and He has knowledge of everything.
57:4 He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six days (periods) and then established Himself on the Throne. He knows all that enters the earth and all that comes forth from it, and all that comes down from the heaven and all that goes up to it. He is with you wherever you are. And Allah sees all that you do.
57:5 His is the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and to Him are all matters referred (for decision).
57:6 He causes the night to pass into the day, and causes the day to pass into the night, and He fully knows all that is hidden in the hearts of people.

Allah says in the end of chapter Al-Hashr:
59:22 He is Allah, besides whom there is no god, the Knower of the unseen and the seen. He is the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful .
59:23 He is Allah, besides whom there is no god, the Sovereign, the Holy One, the Source of Peace (and Perfection), the Guardian of Faith, the Preserver of Safety, the Exalted in Might, the Irresistible, the Supreme: Glory to Allah! (High is He) above the partners they attribute to Him.
59:24 He is Allah, the Creator, the Evolver, the Fashioner. To Him belong the most excellent Attributes. Whatever is in the heavens and the earth extols His Glory. He is the Most Mighty, the Most Wise.

Allah defines His powerful Attributes in the middle of 2nd chapter, Al-Baqrah:
2:256 Allah, there is no God but He, the Ever-Living, the Eternal, the Sustainer of [all] existence. Neither drowsiness overtakes Him nor sleep. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. Who is it that can intercede with Him except by His permission? He knows what is before the people and also what is hidden from them, and they encompass not a thing of His knowledge except for what He wills. His Kursi (throne) extends over the heavens and the earth, and their preservation tires Him not. And He is the Most High, the Supreme.

These are not all but a small sample. Hopefully this gave you the Muslim perspective of God All-Mighty Allah (SWT - Glorious and Most-High).

In the end I would like to quote the following important verses in which Allah says:

(27:83) On the day when We will resurrect and gather from every nation a company of those who rejected Our revelations, and they will be [driven] in rows.
(27:84) When they will be brought [at the place of Judgement], He will ask them, "You rejected My revelations while you did not comprehend them with knowledge. Is this not what you did?"
(27:85) And the decree will befall them for the wrong they did, and they will not [be able to] speak.


Wassalam.

 

[Cariad]

Sister Cariad, Assalam-o-alikum,

Sister you didn't answer the points I raised, but I will answer your this question.

The best definition of Allah (SWT) is given in Quran itself. So I will quote several verses from different chapters of Quran. Our perception of Allah comes from Quran as this is the book of Allah (SWT) Himself.

Allah says in chapter Al-Ikhlas:
112:1 Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
112:2 Allah, the Eternal, Absolute (Who is in need of none and of Whom all are in need);
112:3 He begets not, and neither is He begotten;
112:4 And there is nothing that could be compared with Him.


Allah says in chapter Al-Hadid:
57:1 All that is in the heavens and the earth glorifies Allah; and He is the Mighty, the Wise.
57:2 His is the kingdom of the heavens and the earth; He gives life and causes death; and He has power over all things.
57:3 He is the First and the Last, and the Manifest and the Hidden, and He has knowledge of everything.
57:4 He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six days (periods) and then established Himself on the Throne. He knows all that enters the earth and all that comes forth from it, and all that comes down from the heaven and all that goes up to it. He is with you wherever you are. And Allah sees all that you do.
57:5 His is the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and to Him are all matters referred (for decision).
57:6 He causes the night to pass into the day, and causes the day to pass into the night, and He fully knows all that is hidden in the hearts of people.

Allah says in the end of chapter Al-Hashr:
59:22 He is Allah, besides whom there is no god, the Knower of the unseen and the seen. He is the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful .
59:23 He is Allah, besides whom there is no god, the Sovereign, the Holy One, the Source of Peace (and Perfection), the Guardian of Faith, the Preserver of Safety, the Exalted in Might, the Irresistible, the Supreme: Glory to Allah! (High is He) above the partners they attribute to Him.
59:24 He is Allah, the Creator, the Evolver, the Fashioner. To Him belong the most excellent Attributes. Whatever is in the heavens and the earth extols His Glory. He is the Most Mighty, the Most Wise.

Allah defines His powerful Attributes in the middle of 2nd chapter, Al-Baqrah:
2:256 Allah, there is no God but He, the Ever-Living, the Eternal, the Sustainer of [all] existence. Neither drowsiness overtakes Him nor sleep. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. Who is it that can intercede with Him except by His permission? He knows what is before the people and also what is hidden from them, and they encompass not a thing of His knowledge except for what He wills. His Kursi (throne) extends over the heavens and the earth, and their preservation tires Him not. And He is the Most High, the Supreme.

These are not all but a small sample. Hopefully this gave you the Muslim perspective of God All-Mighty Allah (SWT - Glorious and Most-High).

In the end I would like to quote the following important verses in which Allah says:

(27:83) On the day when We will resurrect and gather from every nation a company of those who rejected Our revelations, and they will be [driven] in rows.
(27:84) When they will be brought [at the place of Judgement], He will ask them, "You rejected My revelations while you did not comprehend them with knowledge. Is this not what you did?"
(27:85) And the decree will befall them for the wrong they did, and they will not [be able to] speak.


Wassalam.

Please accept my apologies, I did not realise you wished me to answer each point individually. This forum keeps timing me out and I keep losing stuff I have written. Maybe I am doing something wrong?

Ezekiel 18:19 �Yet you ask, �Why does the son not share the guilt of his father?� Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live.
Ezekiel 18:20 The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.

And if we look at what Jesus says even in these existing Gospels which we don't know who wrote (sister don't get upset as this is true) this whole concept of original sin and blood atonement just vanishes.

This is problem when taking a verse out of context the meaning is lost. This has nothing to do with blood atonement absolving sin. It is about following Gods law and Gods justice.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel+18-19,James+4&version=NIV

See whole in context may make more sense.

I thought I had addressed the issue of why blood atonement was required in the Old Testament, it does not wipe our sins away and give us a clean slate, we still answer for our sins before God on judgement day. It removes the veil we place before Gods holiness because our sin makes us unworthy. God is perfect if we are to stand before God we have to be likewise. We can never be this by righteous deeds alone.

God gave us his laws to live by and requires perfect obedience, if God did not require perfect obedience then why does he require repentance? why would repentance be necessary if God didn�t expect us to perfectly carry out his instructions? doesn�t the need for repentance prove that God expects man to live in perfect obedience?

BTW in answering these points does this constitute an interfaith discussion? Is this within forum rules? Maybe I could have some clarification on this. I do not wish to cause dissent.

 

[Cariad]

If these two things were the most important things for which Jesus came then he pretty much failed to communicate it.
When he was asked �Of all the commandments, which is the most important?� He didn't say my blood atonement will remove your sin. Instead he said: "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength."

When he was asked �Good teacher,� what must I do to inherit eternal life?�
Jesus said: �Why do you call me good? No one is good�except God alone. You know the commandments: You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, you shall not defraud, honor your father and mother."

In this respect Jesus really goofed didn't he? He blew away the perfect opportunities to tell the world that he came to remove the original sin by blood atonement and people needed to believe in it in order to get salvation. But he didn't tell anyone that.[\QUOTE]

I think I have the quote function now.

So, The Christ was not just sent to die for us, although that was Gods ultimate plan. Christ's mission was to bring a new covenant with God. Jesus said he did not come to abolish the law, meaning Gods law the 10 commandments given to Moses. You could check out the sermon on the mount explains this. Jesus Came to fulfill the law and he did exactly that, showing the holy, spiritual intent, and the purpose which people had lost. He met the law's requirements by obeying it perfectly in thought and deed, he led by example.

John 14 6-7

6 Jesus answered, �I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.�

Jesus did not "goof" he made it very clear that belief in him and his teachings was the way to the father.

Peace to you.

 

[Cariad]

Maybe the quotes not sorted.

 

[Cariad]

In Matthew 15 Jesus did not want to help a gentile woman.
Matthew 15:22 A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.”
Matthew 15:23 Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”
Matthew 15:24 He answered, "I was sent only to help God's lost sheep--the people of Israel."
Matthew 15:25 The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.
Matthew 15:26 He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”
Matthew 15:27 “Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”
Matthew 15:28 Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment.

This is the God Almighty who was sent only to the Jews. And a woman softens his heart by saying “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.” Some 'sacrificial lamb' ... Haan![\QUOTE]

It's interesting you choose above verses from Matthew. I remember years ago these troubled be greatly at Bible study I asked the meaning. I will say to you what I was told you must make of it as you
will, but it then made sense to me.

All the Bible we are to learn a lesson, by Jesus action there is a lesson to be learnt of how we can improve ourselves and be righteous. The Cannanite women at the time of this is a pagan women a non believer, like you say in your Quran, no worse people than non believers, I was not taught that at my class, but my observation ya. Also like in Quran dogs derogatory ya. Disciples of Jesus prejudice against this women and her people because that is the belief of the Jews at that time, they are Jews yes. Jesus here uses harsh language exposing their prejudices but at the end claims that this woman has great faith, grants her request and heals her daughter. Later verses claim that Jesus goes on to feed a multitude of pagans as he also did the multitude at the sermon. This shows that God is inclusive NOT divisive in his love and his wish for all no matter what kind of people can come to know his love.

That is best I can do to explain as I understand it. As I said parables are for people to seek for themselves the truth many find different meanings to words and so do not all come to God in the same way.

Peace to you

 

[Cariad]

Sister Cariad, Assalam-o-alikum,

Sister you didn't answer the points I raised, but I will answer your this question.

The best definition of Allah (SWT) is given in Quran itself. So I will quote several verses from different chapters of Quran. Our perception of Allah comes from Quran as this is the book of Allah (SWT) Himself.

Allah says in chapter Al-Ikhlas:
112:1 Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
112:2 Allah, the Eternal, Absolute (Who is in need of none and of Whom all are in need);
112:3 He begets not, and neither is He begotten;
112:4 And there is nothing that could be compared with Him.


Allah says in chapter Al-Hadid:
57:1 All that is in the heavens and the earth glorifies Allah; and He is the Mighty, the Wise.
57:2 His is the kingdom of the heavens and the earth; He gives life and causes death; and He has power over all things.
57:3 He is the First and the Last, and the Manifest and the Hidden, and He has knowledge of everything.
57:4 He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six days (periods) and then established Himself on the Throne. He knows all that enters the earth and all that comes forth from it, and all that comes down from the heaven and all that goes up to it. He is with you wherever you are. And Allah sees all that you do.
57:5 His is the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and to Him are all matters referred (for decision).
57:6 He causes the night to pass into the day, and causes the day to pass into the night, and He fully knows all that is hidden in the hearts of people.

Allah says in the end of chapter Al-Hashr:
59:22 He is Allah, besides whom there is no god, the Knower of the unseen and the seen. He is the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful .
59:23 He is Allah, besides whom there is no god, the Sovereign, the Holy One, the Source of Peace (and Perfection), the Guardian of Faith, the Preserver of Safety, the Exalted in Might, the Irresistible, the Supreme: Glory to Allah! (High is He) above the partners they attribute to Him.
59:24 He is Allah, the Creator, the Evolver, the Fashioner. To Him belong the most excellent Attributes. Whatever is in the heavens and the earth extols His Glory. He is the Most Mighty, the Most Wise.

Allah defines His powerful Attributes in the middle of 2nd chapter, Al-Baqrah:
2:256 Allah, there is no God but He, the Ever-Living, the Eternal, the Sustainer of [all] existence. Neither drowsiness overtakes Him nor sleep. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. Who is it that can intercede with Him except by His permission? He knows what is before the people and also what is hidden from them, and they encompass not a thing of His knowledge except for what He wills. His Kursi (throne) extends over the heavens and the earth, and their preservation tires Him not. And He is the Most High, the Supreme.

These are not all but a small sample. Hopefully this gave you the Muslim perspective of God All-Mighty Allah (SWT - Glorious and Most-High).

In the end I would like to quote the following important verses in which Allah says:

(27:83) On the day when We will resurrect and gather from every nation a company of those who rejected Our revelations, and they will be [driven] in rows.
(27:84) When they will be brought [at the place of Judgement], He will ask them, "You rejected My revelations while you did not comprehend them with knowledge. Is this not what you did?"
(27:85) And the decree will befall them for the wrong they did, and they will not [be able to] speak.


Wassalam.

Salaam, thank you for this post it is good information, but it was not my question, I had not asked yet. I know what the Quran tells of Gods attributes, they are same for me anyway, well most of them.

My question, if Quran is word of God as in the words are Gods words ...is this right ya. What puzzles me is why Allah refers to himself in plural pronoun? If Allah is unitary being? I never had answer to this question when I ask it.

Peace to you.

Now I am tired with all the logging in this forum for every post cos it takes me too long. Hahaha.

 

[Munawar]

Salaam, thank you for this post it is good information, but it was not my question, I had not asked yet. I know what the Quran tells of Gods attributes, they are same for me anyway, well most of them.

My question, if Quran is word of God as in the words are Gods words ...is this right ya. What puzzles me is why Allah refers to himself in plural pronoun? If Allah is unitary being? I never had answer to this question when I ask it.

Peace to you.

Now I am tired with all the logging in this forum for every post cos it takes me too long. Hahaha.

Salam Sister,
Thanks for all your replies.... I know it is a hard work to construct a good post, and it is time consuming too.

Sister the so-called plural you are asking about is because of the language. I know that in Urdu, in Arabic and even in English there is something called "Royal We". This is the way kings used to address people. So Allah (SWT) is using the same "Royal We" as He is the King of all kings. This is as simple as that. Otherwise the Quran and the whole teaching of Islam is crystal clear about the oneness of God Almighty.

May Allah (SWT) help you and guide you towards the truth, and bless you with His mercy. Ameen.
Peace to you sister.

 

[Cariad]

Blessings Munawar, this is answer I had once before. Yes the concept of the royal we. But what still caused me to puzzle, why would Allah refer to himself in this manner? Who does not doubt that God is above everyone. Also when for example, Queen of England refers to herself in the Royal WE, she is addressing her subjects as the monarch as such there are other who work alongside her in order for her to carry out her duties as Queen as the monarchy. When she is herself a private person she would say I, singular. Do you see what I mean? That is what puzzled me.

Thank you again for your reply. Peace to you.

 

[um muhammad al-mahdi]

Hi Cariad,

welcome to TurnToIslam!

Are you finding a way to dislike Islam? Lots of people take single verses from the Quran and use them against Muslims to push the hate against our perfect religion. When I read the Quran for the first time I didn't understand anything (I was Christian Catholic) and it took some time to learn the meanings etc also because I was reading a 'translation' of the Quran and reading it now in Arabic makes lots of sense to me alhamdulillah!

I will post now a little explanation about the use of 'We' in the Quran but I don't expect a positive answer from you 'cause at the end it's Allah who guides, not us here in TurnToIslam, alhamdulillah - "As for those who have rejected (these truths), it is all the same whether or not you warn them, for they will not believe." [Surat al-Baqarah ayah 6]

It is a feature of literary style in Arabic that a person may refer to himself by the pronoun nahnu (we) for respect or glorification. He may also use the word ana (I), indicating one person, or the third person huwa (he). All three styles are used in the Qur'an, where Allaah addresses the Arabs in their own tongue. ( Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa'imah, 4/143).

"Allaah, may He be glorified and exalted, sometimes refers to Himself in the singular, by name or by use of a pronoun, and sometimes by use of the plural, as in the phrase (interpretation of the meaning):'Verily, We have given you a manifest victory" [al-Fath 48:1], and other similar phrases. But Allaah never refers to Himself by use of the dual, because the plural refers to the respect that He deserves, and may refer to His names and attributes, whereas the dual refers to a specific number (and nothing else), and He is far above that."
( Al-'Aqeedah al-Tadmuriyyah by Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah, p. 75).

These words, innaa ("Verily We") and nahnu ("We"), and other forms of the plural, may be used by one person speaking on behalf of a group, or they may be used by one person for purposes of respect or glorification, as is done by some monarchs when they issue statements or decrees in which they say " We have decided…" etc. [This is known in English as "The Royal We" – Translator]. In such cases, only one person is speaking but the plural is used for respect. The One Who is more deserving of respect than any other is Allaah, may He be glorified and exalted, so when He says in the Qur'an innaa ("Verily We") and nahnu ("We"), it is for respect and glorification, not to indicate plurality of numbers. If an aayah of this type is causing confusion, it is essential to refer to the clear, unambiguous aayaat for clarification, and if a Christian, for example, insists on taking ayaat such as
"Verily, We: it is We Who have sent down the Dhikr (i.e., the Qur'an)"
[al-Hijr 15:9 – interpretation of the meaning] as proof of divine plurality, we may refute this claim by quoting such clear and unambiguous aayaat as (interpretation of the meanings):
"And your god is One God, there is none who has the right to be worshipped but He, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful" [al-Baqarah 2:163]
and
"Say: He is Allaah, the One" [al-Ikhlaas 112:1]
and other aayaat which can only be interpreted in one way. Thus confusion will be dispelled for the one who is seeking the truth. Every time Allaah uses the plural to refer to Himself, it is based on the respect and honour that He deserves, and on the great number of His names and attributes, and on the great number of His troops and angels.

(Al-'Aqeedah al-Tadmuriyyah by Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah, p. 109).

I'm in UK as well, feel free to PM if you like.

 

[Cariad]

Are you finding a way to dislike Islam? Lots of people take single verses from the Quran and use them against Muslims to push the hate against our perfect religion. When I read the Quran for the first time I didn't understand anything (I was Christian Catholic) and it took some time to learn the meanings etc also because I was reading a 'translation' of the Quran and reading it now in Arabic makes lots of sense to me alhamdulillah!

I will post now a little explanation about the use of 'We' in the Quran but I don't expect a positive answer from you 'cause at the end it's Allah who guides, not us here in TurnToIslam, alhamdulillah - "As for those who have rejected (these truths), it is all the same whether or not you warn them, for they will not believe."(Surat al-Baqarah ayah 6) [\QUOTE]

Whoa..sister, I never push hate to anyone. I do not dislike Islam, it is just not my way to God. Really it just make me upset when I see bad things said about christian faith and wish to say the other side. But now I join such discussions no longer happen. Sad cos I think more talk means better understanding of each others and respect for all people. Accept my apology if you feel I have overstepped the mark of what is acceptable.

Thank you for your explanation. Peace to you.

 

[Munawar]

Blessings Munawar, this is answer I had once before. Yes the concept of the royal we. But what still caused me to puzzle, why would Allah refer to himself in this manner? Who does not doubt that God is above everyone. Also when for example, Queen of England refers to herself in the Royal WE, she is addressing her subjects as the monarch as such there are other who work alongside her in order for her to carry out her duties as Queen as the monarchy. When she is herself a private person she would say I, singular. Do you see what I mean? That is what puzzled me.

Thank you again for your reply. Peace to you.

Salam Sister,


Now this is hair splitting for no reason. Allah choses how He want to address His subjects, in singular, plural or as He. As He is the supreme. Some people ask why He choses the word Him or He? Is God a male? The answer is NO. Allah is neither male nor female. Actually Allah is the inventor of gender. It is because of the deficiency in the human languages that God Almighty choses to use He. But if someone is determined to just concentrate on that then no one can help.

Our sitser um muhammad al-mahdi has provided a great explanation too. Please read the posts above for the Quranic verses regarding the Oneness of Allah, and there are many more in Quran and in Hadith, and therefore in the presence of such extremely clear verses of Quran who can try to split hair and say "hmmm... why Allah used 'Royal We' here? hmmm... I am really puzzled". Sister, this is neither fair nor wise. This is kind of hurtful to me, so if you don't mind sister then after what you wrote above made me wonder/understand why some who gained knowledge still stay with Christianity. It looks like it is because they love to split hair and concentrate on ambiguity and ignore the clearity and straight forward commands.

On the Day of Judgement when the disbelievers will see the fires of Hell, they will be extremely mad at themselves and at those who they used to listen to and follow, because of the horror of the day and after knowing what awaits them, they will be saying to themselves "why did I do that?" "why I didn't listen?" etc. They will be so terrified that they will chew on their hands and won't even feel it. And so Allah (SWT) as a mercy provides these glimpses to us so that we take corrective actions today and protect ourselves. Allah says in Chaprer 40 (Al-Ghafir):

10. Those who disbelieve will be addressed (on the Day of Judgement): "Allah's anger was greater towards you (in the worldly life when you used to reject the Faith) than your anger on yourself (and one another), when you were called to the Faith but you used to reject."

11. They will say: "Our Lord! You have made us to die twice (i.e. we were dead in the loins of our fathers and dead after our deaths in this world), and You have given us life twice (i.e. life when we were born and life when we are Resurrected)! Now we confess our sins, then is there any way to get out (of the Fire)?"

12. (It will be said): "This is because, when Allah alone was invoked you disbelieved, but when partners were joined to Him, you believed! So the judgement is only with Allah, the Most High, the Most Great!"

13. It is He, Who shows you His Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) and sends down (rain with which grows) provision for you from the sky. And none remembers but those who turn (to Allah) in obedience and in repentance (by begging His Pardon and by worshipping and obeying Him Alone and none else).

So, please sister stop splitting hair and come towards the clear and unambigous statements of Jesus (PBUH) and the full of wisdom signs/revelations from Allah (SWT) in Quran.

Peace to you.

 

[Cariad]

Munawar, blessing to you. Truly I do not wish to hurt by my posts but I am sensing we reach an impasse ya. I am happy in my life I do wish all are happy in their life, we are all free to make our choices. I love God with all my heart and soul and shall continue till I die.

This is where we are big different I see God as love and forgiveness for all people who hold him in their hearts. You I think believe this is conditional by also accepting Mohammed pbuh as final prophet. This I seek to know but it is not clear to me why God puts conditions that all his people from the Jews must change everything God sent us by all the prophets like that God make big error, which is most rediculous notion!!!

Christ was messiah even Quran says this fact, if God sends messiah to do his work would God not also will that the work be completed. God is lord and master of everything, nothing is made or unmade by his will alone. I believe in all my heart that Gods will was done through Christ. Yet the Quran shows us a Christ as a pale imitation of what he is.

I feel we all will never agree and best to agree to differ with respect and the spirit of friendship. Because before we are Christian, Muslim, Jew, Hindu, Sikh, Buddhist or whatever way we find God ...we are all part of the human race that make up the world we live in. I would wish we all share that world in peace and love each other as God would wish us to love him. God shows us the example of love to follow yet so many are blind to it and making the world a painful place sometimes.

Maybe this thread has reached it's end ya.. Very long for introduction. I have enjoyed exchanging posts here I thank you for your time.

Peace love and blessings all.

 

[Munawar]

Assalam-o-alikum,
I found this interesting video. I sent toi Cariad via private message. But then I thought to share it with all of us.
It contains some really critical information.

I hope people will watch it and then ponder about it.
Wassalam.

 

[Cariad]

Thank you for sharing this Munawar. I have sent you a reply. I don't feel the information is that critical to change ones point of view as its not new stuff.

However I cannot stress strongly enough my dismay at the way this book, if it was as old and valuable as they implied in the video, was handled!! If this was a genuine book it would have been handled and stored in very different circumstances. I can only assume it was a modern copy, I hope so.