Is Jesus God?

Iprofessshirk

New Member
You have probably inferred from my username that I am not muslim, and you are correct. I do not mean it in an offensive way, its simply a factual statement about me, I do profess shirk...I believe in the Christian trinity, and in Islam, this is considered "shirk".

I stated a basic conversation about Biblical accuracy, and specifically about whether or not Jesus was crucified. It was off to a good start, but located in the wrong place. If you'd like to catch up, please check the thread here:
http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=89395

My question boils down to the reliability of the Biblical texts. And why or why not muslims belive in them. I feel there is good reason to believe in the Bible in its current state, but muslims seem to disagree.

My real concern is that the Bible warned of false teachers and false profits who would decieve many....and Muhammad seems to fit the description very well. Does that not concern any of you?

I'm not saying I'm right and you're wrong....I'm just wondering if you've considered both perspectives?
 

IbnAdam77

Travelling towards my grave.
You have probably inferred from my username that I am not muslim, and you are correct. I do not mean it in an offensive way, its simply a factual statement about me, I do profess shirk...I believe in the Christian trinity, and in Islam, this is considered "shirk".

I stated a basic conversation about Biblical accuracy, and specifically about whether or not Jesus was crucified. It was off to a good start, but located in the wrong place. If you'd like to catch up, please check the thread here:
http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=89395

My question boils down to the reliability of the Biblical texts. And why or why not muslims belive in them. I feel there is good reason to believe in the Bible in its current state, but muslims seem to disagree.

My real concern is that the Bible warned of false teachers and false profits who would decieve many....and Muhammad seems to fit the description very well. Does that not concern any of you?

I'm not saying I'm right and you're wrong....I'm just wondering if you've considered both perspectives?

First, I am not offended with your username. :)

Well, in the very beginning, we have stated that we do not believe the Bible to be the word of God, and we do believe its corrupted by men. If you want proof, please ask us specifically. Therefore how can we be concerned if such a book claims Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) to be a false Prophet?

Yes we have considered the both perspectives. Guess what? Islam is the only non-Christian faith which has an article of faith to believe in Jesus Christ (peace and blessings be upon him). We believe he is the Messiah! We believe he was born with no intervention of a male, which many modern day Christians do not believe. We believe when he placed his hand on the blind, they were cured with the permission of Allah. etc etc.

I strongly doubt that you have watched the video I posted on the other thread. I hope you watch it, and comment on it.

Here I am posting another video which I strongly urge you to watch and comment on.

[video=youtube;sREemKFBJX8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sREemKFBJX8[/video]

Moreover, I would like to ask you a simple question. Do you believe Jesus (peace and blessings be upon him) to be the begotten son of God?
 

Tabassum07

Smile for Allah
My real concern is that the Bible warned of false teachers and false profits who would decieve many....and Muhammad seems to fit the description very well. Does that not concern any of you?

Actually, Islam also warns that there will be false teachers and false prophets. The biggest one to come is someone mentioned in the Bible too. You know him as the Anti-Christ. We call him Dajjal. He's basically going to be the biggest trial for the entire world ever since the beginning and end of this Earthly life.

The Bible and the Torah also actually have mentions of a Prophet to come, and a request to believe in him when he does. That Prophet was Muhammad (peace be upon him).

Here's a link that details how our Prophet is mentioned in the Bible and the Torah:

http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/muhammad_bible.htm
 

a_stranger

Junior Member
Logic :

It is not (possible) for any human being to whom Allâh has given the Book and Al-Hukm (the knowledge and understanding of the laws of religion) and Prophethood to say to the people: "Be my worshippers rather than Allâh's." On the contrary (he would say): "Be you Rabbaniyyun (learned men of religion who practise what they know and also preach others), because you are teaching the Book, and you are studying it." (79) Nor would he order you to take angels and Prophets for lords (gods)[]. Would he order you to disbelieve after you have submitted to Allâh's Will? (Tafsir At-Tabarî). (80

Translation of the meanings of Quran , 3
 

Casiva

A Servant of Allah
All your questions can be answered in this video:

[video=youtube;YW99U4JWNEc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YW99U4JWNEc[/video]

Tell me what do you think about it after watching it fully
 

Hajjerr

He is Dhul-Jalali Wal-Ikram
Jesus said, "Surely, Allah is my Lord and your Lord"

(Qur'an 3:51) Surely, Allah is my Lord and your Lord; so serve Him alone. This is the straight way.'

As with other Prophets, the fundamental points of Jesus' mission were the following:

(1) Man should acknowledge- the exclusive sovereignty of God which demands absolute service and obedience to Him, and Him alone. This principle serves as the basis for the entire structure of human morality and social behaviour.

(2) Man should obey the Prophets since they are the representatives of the true Sovereign.

(3) The Law which should regulate man's conduct by elaborating what is right and what is wrong should be none other than the Law of God. The laws devised by others should be abrogated. There is, thus, no difference between the missions of Jesus, Moses and Muhammad (peace be on them all). Those who think that the missions of the Prophets differ from one another and who believe that their objectives vary have fallen into serious error. Whoever is sent by the Lord of the Universe to His creatures can have no other purpose than to dissuade God's subjects from disobeying Him and assuming an attitude of vanity and disregard towards Him, and to admonish them against associating anyone with God in His divinity (that is, either holding anyone to be a partner with the Lord of the Universe in His Sovereignty or recognizing others beside God as having a rightful claim on part of man's loyalty, devotion and worship), and to invite them all to be loyal to, and to serve, obey and worship God alone.

Have you read any translation of Quran ? If yes, what you think about its content ?
I am revert and i embraced islam with great joy.
 

strive-may-i

Junior Member
Be careful of clicking on any links in internet. When one moves the mouse over the link, the actual address is shown in bottom of browser

The link in comment #5 may not be the youtube.com we all know.
 

Casiva

A Servant of Allah
Be careful of clicking on any links in internet. When one moves the mouse over the link, the actual address is shown in bottom of browser

The link in comment #5 may not be the youtube.com we all know.

No, that is a REAL youtube link. I am NOT spammer. You can prove it yourself. If it leads to another site instead of youtube, you can ask the moderator to ban me.
I just haven't figured out how to make it fully embedded. I have tried to upload video from editor, but it still didn't work. I have pasted the embedded code from youtube but it didn't work as well. So if anybody knows how to do it, please tell me.
Be careful for any provocators who can mislead you from the truth!
 

Iprofessshirk

New Member
Thank you everyone for your replies. I'll take them one at a time :)

First, I am not offended with your username. :)

Well, in the very beginning, we have stated that we do not believe the Bible to be the word of God, and we do believe its corrupted by men. If you want proof, please ask us specifically. Therefore how can we be concerned if such a book claims Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) to be a false Prophet?

Yes we have considered the both perspectives. Guess what? Islam is the only non-Christian faith which has an article of faith to believe in Jesus Christ (peace and blessings be upon him). We believe he is the Messiah! We believe he was born with no intervention of a male, which many modern day Christians do not believe. We believe when he placed his hand on the blind, they were cured with the permission of Allah. etc etc.

I strongly doubt that you have watched the video I posted on the other thread. I hope you watch it, and comment on it.

Here I am posting another video which I strongly urge you to watch and comment on.

[video=youtube;sREemKFBJX8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sREemKFBJX8[/video]

Moreover, I would like to ask you a simple question. Do you believe Jesus (peace and blessings be upon him) to be the begotten son of God?
I only watched the first 20 minutes of the other video you posted. I would like to watch the whole thing, but I don't have the time right now. I'll let you know when I do. I did watch this one thouhg, my thoughts follow.

Yes, I believe Jesus is the begotten son of God. I heard and undersood the teacher's reasoning for his disbelief of this truth. But I disagree, and so do the majority of translations, the Revised Standard Version one of only a few modern translations which removes "begotten"...but it does say "only" son, something not mentioned in the video. The original Greek does use a word which describes this son as unique, which is why the RSV says "only son". So I completely disagree with his arguement, and I think if you look critically at the arguement, it falls flat on its face.

The concept that the Bible has been corrupted by man, has been largely debunked over the past couple centurys. And there is a vast reasource of very old manuscripts with which we can verify the accuracy of very early writings. I'd also like to point out that I believe that only the original Greek and Hebrew texts were actually the "inspired word of God", the modern translations are only that: translations of the inspired word of God. Just like how you would likely say that English translations of the Koran are not the word of Allah, only the original Arabic version of the Koran is Allah's word.

Actually, Islam also warns that there will be false teachers and false prophets. The biggest one to come is someone mentioned in the Bible too. You know him as the Anti-Christ. We call him Dajjal. He's basically going to be the biggest trial for the entire world ever since the beginning and end of this Earthly life.

The Bible and the Torah also actually have mentions of a Prophet to come, and a request to believe in him when he does. That Prophet was Muhammad (peace be upon him).

Here's a link that details how our Prophet is mentioned in the Bible and the Torah:

http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/muhammad_bible.htm
Thanks for the link, I've already addresses some of these points in the previous thread. Basically, I don't see these references as explicit indicators of Muhammad, and they could very easily be attributed to the other prophets or even Jesus.

Logic :

It is not (possible) for any human being to whom Allâh has given the Book and Al-Hukm (the knowledge and understanding of the laws of religion) and Prophethood to say to the people: "Be my worshippers rather than Allâh's." On the contrary (he would say): "Be you Rabbaniyyun (learned men of religion who practise what they know and also preach others), because you are teaching the Book, and you are studying it." (79) Nor would he order you to take angels and Prophets for lords (gods)[]. Would he order you to disbelieve after you have submitted to Allâh's Will? (Tafsir At-Tabarî). (80

Translation of the meanings of Quran , 3
I think my responses to the video (below) will address your comments as well :)

All your questions can be answered in this video:

http://youtu.be/YW99U4JWNEc

Tell me what do you think about it after watching it fully
Great video, thanks for posting. I did watch the whole thing and there are some very interesting arguements given. I'll address them in the order given:
10) God can not be born.
Well, I understand why this is confusing. It would seem to our human minds that it might not be possible for God in His supreme nature to be born in human form (however, consider that humans were created in God's own image). But Islam gives no alternative explaination as to why Jesus had no father. Why do you believe God gave Jesus so much more power & wisdom than the other prophets? Something about Jesus was very unique, and Islam does not explain what that something is.

9) There is no explicit Biblical reference claiming Jesus is God.
The claim in the video is that only by taking verses out of context can you show the Bible claims Jesus is God. I beg to differ, please read all of John chapter 13, there are several specific references to Jesus' divinity. When read in context, I find them quite convincing, and this is only one of many examples. Here is a list of many references: http://carm.org/jesus-god Please read them in context...

8) No one has ever seen God
I struggle with this one as a Christian as well. Even before Jesus came on the seen, the Bible states that Moses saw God as one sees his brother. I don't understand how the Bible could make both claims, and there seems to be an inconsistancy to me. However, they are applying the truth to Jesus, and I believe the reference is only with God the Father, not Jesus. So it does not apply.

7) The doctrine of the trinity is not taught by Jesus or his followers.
There are many references, but I think this one is most compelling:

Matthew 28
16 Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. 17 And when they saw him they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.”

Please check here for more: http://carm.org/what-trinity

I'd also like to point out that I think Joshua is being pretty deceptive with his argument here. He says that the verse 1 John 5:7 has been thrown out of most modern translations....but I looked around and could not find a shred of evidance to support this claim, so I'm left a bit stumped on where he got that from, any more insight would be appreciated.

6) Jesus ate slept & prayed.
If you believe Jesus is God in human form, this is not difficult to accept, so I don't really see it as a seperate argument, but simply an add on to #1.

5) Jesus claimed God's knowledge was greater than his own.
This seems to me to be the most powerful arguement, and I don't have any good answer. But I will definitely be looking into this more, thanks!

4) Jesus says He is not God
Joshua highlighted several verses to refute his claim on this, but I would argue that they are taken out of context. Read John 17:1-5...Joshua only picks out verse 3 (which really doesn't support his claim even out of context in my opinion), but when put in context, especially with verse 5, its a pretty solid arguement for Jesus' divinity.

3) The phrase "son of God" is not exculsively used for Jesus.
No, that is correct, but the phrase "only son of God", or "begotten son of God" is exclusive to Jesus.

2) God cannot change.
I agree, God cannot change His nature, but that does not mean He cannot manifest Himself to us in various ways. I believe God is all powerful, and He can do this, just as it was promised in the old testament that He would.

1) God is the object of worship.
Again, I have to call bluff on Joshua. He picks Matthew 15:9 as his reasoning about this point. However, it is taken out of context, please read from verse 1 to verse 20 and see if you still agree with him. This one he claims is his strongest arguement, but to me it is the weakest one, built on straw.

Have you read any translation of Quran ? If yes, what you think about its content ?
I am revert and i embraced islam with great joy.
I read it at http://www.quranexplorer.com/quran/
I find it very tedious to read, and difficult to understand the context. Earlier this year I picked up a commentary on the Koran, and the author said it very well, so I'll echo his sentiment:

"The Koran is less a collection of historical narratives, as is much of the Bible, as it is a collection of sermons in which historical material is not told for its own sake, but is used to illustrate various points. It makes no attempt at linear history, either as a whole or, generally, within the individual chapters. While the Bible contains historical books that are more or less in chronological order, and in broad outline follows a coherent historical trajectory, the focus of the Koran's suras often moves from subject to subject, with various historical incidents recounted only in fragments........
...To be sure, much of the Koran is perfectly clear, but there are numerous passages that refer to incidents in Muhammad's life of an event in early Islamic history without providing key elements of the story - as if taking for granted that everyone who hears the Koranic account will know the omitted details. That makes reading some passages of the Koran rather like listening in on a converstaion between two people you don't know, who are discussing events in which you were not involved - and they are not bothering to stop and explain to you the details of what they are discussing."
- pages 16-18, "The Complete Infidel's Guide to the Koran", by Robert Spencer
 

xAllahKnowsBestx

Junior Member
10) God can not be born.
Well, I understand why this is confusing. It would seem to our human minds that it might not be possible for God in His supreme nature to be born in human form (however, consider that humans were created in God's own image). But Islam gives no alternative explaination as to why Jesus had no father. Why do you believe God gave Jesus so much more power & wisdom than the other prophets? Something about Jesus was very unique, and Islam does not explain what that something is.

Hello there :)

I haven't read your entire post yet but I just wanted to reply to this.

Actually, Islam does give an alternative explanation as to why Jesus (peace be upon him) had no father. Allaah says in the Qur'an:

"Verily, the example of Jesus to Allah is like that of Adam. He created Him from dust; then He said to him, "Be," and he was." (Qur'an 3:59)

If Jesus (peace be upon him) is considered the begotten son of God on the sole basis that he had no father, then how would we explain the creation of Adam (peace be upon him)? Does that mean Adam is the greater son of God because he had neither a father nor a mother? :)
 

xAllahKnowsBestx

Junior Member
6)Jesus ate slept & prayed.
If you believe Jesus is God in human form, this is not difficult to accept, so I don't really see it as a seperate argument, but simply an add on to #1.

If Jesus is God, why would he pray? And to whom would he pray? Just curious as to what your reasoning behind this is.
 

Iprofessshirk

New Member
If Jesus is God, why would he pray? And to whom would he pray? Just curious as to what your reasoning behind this is.

Assuming God took on human form in the man Jesus...the package included the sins of the flesh. Jesus prayed to the father for strength to overcome the sins of the flesh. It was also done in order to set an example of how we ought to seek the father in our weakness.
 

alf2

Islam is a way of life
Well hi there *waves*

You will be surprised to find there are MANY ex-Christians here. Including myself. So just because people are Muslims does not mean they haven't read about Christianity. I find MANY born Muslims are knowledgeable about Christianity.
Also, Muhammad is not a false Prophet, you should read more about him. If it doesnt scream "this man was chosen by God" then I think you should get your brain checked.
 

ShahnazZ

Striving2BeAStranger
Assuming God took on human form in the man Jesus...the package included the sins of the flesh. Jesus prayed to the father for strength to overcome the sins of the flesh. It was also done in order to set an example of how we ought to seek the father in our weakness.

If God took on a human form as Jesus, then whose He praying to? Himself?
 

xAllahKnowsBestx

Junior Member
Assuming God took on human form in the man Jesus...the package included the sins of the flesh. Jesus prayed to the father for strength to overcome the sins of the flesh. It was also done in order to set an example of how we ought to seek the father in our weakness.

So God (Jesus) prayed to God (the Father as you say)? Why? He could have forgiven himself. And when God took on the form of a human (Jesus) did he stop being God because of the sins of flesh? God can't be sinful.

You see this is way too confusing. I just don't understand why faith has to be this complicated. Islam is simple. Surely God wouldn't want to confuse His creation to the extent that they don't even know who He is, don't you think?
 

Iprofessshirk

New Member
So God (Jesus) prayed to God (the Father as you say)? Why? He could have forgiven himself. And when God took on the form of a human (Jesus) did he stop being God because of the sins of flesh? God can't be sinful.

You see this is way too confusing. I just don't understand why faith has to be this complicated. Islam is simple. Surely God wouldn't want to confuse His creation to the extent that they don't even know who He is, don't you think?

I agree this is a bit strange. And I don't fully understand how God can pray to God. But I don't think our lack of complete comprehension on the point negates the truth of the scripture as a whole.

I find Islam really quite confusing, can you tell me what is required for the guarentee of salvation?
 

a_stranger

Junior Member
Sincere faith in the creator and good deeds following the example of the prophets peace be upon them including ( Jesus : ISA peace be upon him ).
 
Top