Is poker haraam if played without money?

[Umair.]

I'm very, almost 100% certain that it isn't. It involves a certain amount of 'skill' and I have nothing to lose except time so it's not any different from other games such as chess or ludo or something.

If it is haraam because "you're still gambling something" i.e. plastic chips which you arent going to lose anyway cos its probably your boxset... then a large amount of other things would also have to be called haram for example; studying at school/university because you're actually putting your real money on it but you may not come out with anything - no degree or qualifications. Then an investment of time in something uncertain would also have to be called haram, and we invest time in something uncertain A LOT.

From the hadith I've come across about gambling, they specifically mention gambling money away so there isn't any support I've come across for it. So finally, I'd like to ask here for an expert opinion or quotations from the Qur'an or Hadith regarding this matter.

 

[Parvaiz]

:salam2:
Hope helps you in clearing your doubt
http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/120806

 

[Umair.]

That's one scholar's opinion which doesn't seem to be based on much other than his own thinking therefore I can't agree with it. Sometimes you don't need to be a scholar to have common sense. I'm not gambling anything except time by playing it.

If it is haram though then you are telling me; I'm gambling money by going to university, I'm gambling my time right now because I may not get an answer. And what about the raffles and draws they have at islamic gatherings - this would make them also haram too. I don't think Allah or the Prophet s.a.w ever intended Islam to be so difficult as to have made all these things haram. He intended for us to sometimes enjoy ourselves too and these 'scholars' give too many fatwas anyway. I'm just waiting for a fatwa on breathing cos "some germs can enter and harm the body"

 

[alf2]

:salam2:
Hope helps you in clearing your doubt
http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/120806

oh wow, playing any game with dice is like dipping ones hand in the blood of a pig? O__O I did not know that.

I do not understand the statement, "Everything that is based on conjecture is haraam." What is conjecture is this context?

 

[Astrugglingsoul]

That's one scholar's opinion which doesn't seem to be based on much other than his own thinking therefore I can't agree with it. Sometimes you don't need to be a scholar to have common sense. I'm not gambling anything except time by playing it.

If it is haram though then you are telling me, I'm gambling money by going to university, I'm gambling my time right now because I may not get an answer. And what about the raffles and draws they have at islamic gatherings - this would make them also haram too. I don't think Allah or the Prophet s.a.w ever intended Islam to be so difficult as to have made all these things haram. He intended for us to sometimes enjoy ourselves too and these 'scholars' give too many fatwas away. I'm just waiting for a fatwa on breathing cos "some germs can enter and harm our body"

:salam2: brother
it seems like you really like to play poker. i think it is haram when it distracts you from doing obligatory duties such as praying. in this sense playing chess is also haram because normally a chess game lasts for 3 hours. think about it if you play a game for that long and neglect your prayer it should be haram and i think it is also common sense.

 

[xAllahKnowsBestx]

No more Monopoly.. nooo I read that chess is haram as well. Wait, so what about playing these games *online*, if that makes a difference? lol.

 

[Astrugglingsoul]

No more Monopoly.. nooo I read that chess is haram as well. Wait, so what about playing these games *online*, if that makes a difference? lol.

as-salamu alaikum sister

playing online? don't waste too much time on it and don't neglect your prayer because of a online game.

i wish no one tells me now that playing games like modern warfare is also haram because it has killing people

 

[Umair.]

Some people need to chill with launching fatwas on everything. It's like saying "sleeping is haram cos it might distrupt you from your prayer". There's a such thing as an alarm. And most people have sense as to go pray when it is time. Playing chess or poker doesn't make them intoxicated - it's not very hard at all to leave to pray when it is time. I don't love the game of poker that much, I've just played it a couple of times online. Only thing I lost is time and trust me I'm not stupid enough to ever play it for money.

I'm just irritated by people saying everything is haram based on nothing but their extreme views. There should be a fatwa against that

 

[xAllahKnowsBestx]

as-salamu alaikum sister

you can play monopoly i think because the whole money thing on that is fake and it is not gambling either but usually a monopoly game lasts sooooooo long,lol

and playing online? don't waste too much time on it and don't neglect your prayer because of a online game.

i wish no one tells me now that playing games like modern warfare is also haram because it has killing people

Walaykum assalam.

I'd think that it'd be haram, when playing poker without money is haram as well, if that makes sense.. I have no idea..

But I've got to admit, I used to be *addicted* to a WWII game that involves killing and all that.. Glad I got rid of it before I became insane. xD

I think it's okay to play games once in a while as long as you don't obsess over them or neglect prayers or whatever.. That's just my opinion, I don't know the rulings.. :/

 

[Astrugglingsoul]

i used to play monopoly a lot :'(
i think i gotta stop doing that now

 

[Parvaiz]

That's one scholar's opinion which doesn't seem to be based on much other than his own thinking therefore I can't agree with it. Sometimes you don't need to be a scholar to have common sense. I'm not gambling anything except time by playing it.

If it is haram though then you are telling me; I'm gambling money by going to university, I'm gambling my time right now because I may not get an answer. And what about the raffles and draws they have at islamic gatherings - this would make them also haram too. I don't think Allah or the Prophet s.a.w ever intended Islam to be so difficult as to have made all these things haram. He intended for us to sometimes enjoy ourselves too and these 'scholars' give too many fatwas anyway. I'm just waiting for a fatwa on breathing cos "some germs can enter and harm the body"

:salam2:
Brother are you addicted to poker so much that you have forgotten what religion you belong tk as you have already spoken your mind up ill just add my words to it.Allah says eating pig is haram,now dont tell me you will make a soup out of it and drink it as Quran doesn't say you cannot drink it.Yes the religion is easy but mind it when Allah says something is not good for you it means its not and Allah is all knowing.Did you forget the scholar were base of Islam?Arguing on an matter and including your own thoughts to prove your point has no base in Islam.
Raffeles are haram unless the person dint know about it in the first place doesn't matter its Islamic or not ,dont judge Muslim on the base of people you see on tv.:astag: These scholars are helping you out atm and you say they give to many fatwas?if you live by the time when Allah will take the knowledge away before Qayamah(referring to taking away is knowledgeable people),you will realize what you had said in the past.They make your life easy so you dont have to go through millions of book finding 1 answer.

I hear the same word everyday from the people i know.Qouting hadith that Allah has made the religion easy to follow.But that doesn't mean your allowed to listen to music,you can smoke,you can make pictures,you can waste time.

Brother i request you think twice before speaking Devil can lead you to hell fire without even noticing.

If you need more scholars opinion on this,ill give you invitation to Saudi scholar conference you can ask most of them there about this matter.

 

[sister herb]

Some people need to chill with launching fatwas on everything. It's like saying "sleeping is haram cos it might distrupt you from your prayer". There's a such thing as an alarm. And most people have sense as to go pray when it is time. Playing chess or poker doesn't make them intoxicated - it's not very hard at all to leave to pray when it is time. I don't love the game of poker that much, I've just played it a couple of times online. Only thing I lost is time and trust me I'm not stupid enough to ever play it for money.

I'm just irritated by people saying everything is haram based on nothing but their extreme views. There should be a fatwa against that

:salam2:

I agree with that. Also unfortunately in some places people whose listen too much those kind of scholars and they endless fatwas are even ready to kill those whose play something or for example are looking for some kind of programs or sport from TV...

:shymuslima1:

 

[Ershad]

oh wow, playing any game with dice is like dipping ones hand in the blood of a pig? O__O I did not know that.

I do not understand the statement, "Everything that is based on conjecture is haraam." What is conjecture is this context?

Dear sister,

Conjecture is something that is proposed and assumed to be true but it hasn't been proven. That is the context in mathematics. Here, I would assume it means all "Games of chance". In a conjecture, you make a conclusion without having all the information or proof beforehand. In a game of chance, when you throw dice, you don't have everything to know the result of the game. That is, the outcome of the dice is required for the result of the game. This would mean that the outcome of the game is not completely dependent on the your own skill and intelligence (Of course, given by Allah). If there is a part of luck in it, it becomes a game of chance. However, say for instance, basketball - If you throw the ball right on the correct trajectory, it will go into the basket. If you employ a robot, keep it at a mathematically calculated distance and trajectory and make it throw the ball right into the basket, it will fall into the basket every time no matter how many times you do it. However, You can`t make a robot to throw dice in such a way that it has the same result every time. It will also depend on the roughness of the playing surface ( a 100 % smooth is practically unachievable). Considering all this, there is always a probability in games of chance, no matter how much you automate or program it.

I hope it makes it a little more clear (or even confuses more?)

Jazakallahu Khair!

 

[Parvaiz]

oh wow, playing any game with dice is like dipping ones hand in the blood of a pig? O__O I did not know that.

I do not understand the statement, "Everything that is based on conjecture is haraam." What is conjecture is this context?

:salam2: sister
Not necessarily according to major scholars its just waste of time ,instead of which a person can use the time in Allahs way.In normal state person playing dice wont make in fall under haram but small evils lead to major .Like we had many cases people playing for fun but due to one loosing as someone has to ,get into fight which in the end leads to even death.Rest a person can do research in quran and Hadith if they think following the fatwa given by right guided Scholars is waste of time.

 

[islamirama]

Some people need to chill with launching fatwas on everything.

I'm just irritated by people saying everything is haram based on nothing but their extreme views. There should be a fatwa against that

You can either follow Islam and give up haram or you can follow your nafs/desires and diss those who call you to Islam and the Truth.

Sunan of Abu-DawoodHadith 3677 Narrated byAbdullah ibn Amr ibn al-'As The Prophet (peace be upon him) forbade wine (khamr), game of chance (maysir), drum (kubah), and wine made from millet (ghubayrah), saying: Every intoxicant is forbidden.
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[/FONT]...So take what the Messenger gives you, and refrain from what he prohibits you. And fear Allah: for Allah is strict in Punishment. [59:7 ]

"It is not befitting for a believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Apostle, to have any option about their decision, and if anyone disobeys Allah and His Apostle, he/she is clearly on the wrong path." [33:36]

The Prophet (saw) said: “The Ulema are the inheritors of the Prophets”

We know that they cannot be the inheritors in Prophethood as this ended with the final Messenger Muhammad (saw), rather it means they are inheritors in the sense of responsibility of spreading the Deen, working to remove munkar and upholding the truth.

I don't love the game of poker that much, I've just played it a couple of times online. Only thing I lost is time and trust me I'm not stupid enough to ever play it for money.

If this game is played for money, then it is gambling which is haraam...

If it is not played for money, it is still haraam according to a number of scholars, because it is akin to dice in its dependence on conjecture and guesswork, and playing with dice is haraam, because of the report narrated by Muslim (2260) from Buryadah ibn al-Husayn (may Allaah be pleased with him), according to which the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever plays with dice, it is as if he were dipping his hand in the flesh and blood of a pig.”

So are you going to obey Alalh and His Messenger or are you going to whine and make excuses for your own short comings?

I don't care either way, it's your life but you need to ask yourself what's worth more to you, some stupid poker or your deen?

 

[Umair.]

I have no problem with not playing poker because it's not even like I'm addicted or anything, I was just curious on finding out this answer. But the reason the prophet s.a.w was banning the games of chance was because people were gambling in them with REAL money that's why he said to not gamble your money away on games which are played with a dice.

Now you tell me what harm it is going to do to me if I'm playing for nothing, I don't win or lose anything.

And if I accept it, you're ignoring what I said, if something which is haram just because time is wasted on it then this also makes about 80% of the things we do haram because we do invest in things without knowing the outcome for sure i.e. going to a university like I mentioned above.

 

[Umair.]

Oh, and scholars can be wrong too. Some of you act as if they aren't humans and are perfect in every thought.

 

[complex_man]

:salam2:Brother, follow Sahih Hadith and Quran. fatwas are only based on opinions. until and unless they prove it from Quran and Sahih Hadith. i see no harm in playing games if you can also perform your duties very well. i also get irritated by these people who say everything is haram. you can play any game until it doesnt involve gambling and untill it keeps you away from your duties as muslim and good human being. Allah is not going to throw you into hell because you played some game for enjoyment. there are bigger things that will decide the fate not these.

 

[Ershad]

I have no problem with not playing poker because it's not even like I'm addicted or anything, I was just curious on finding out this answer. But the reason the prophet s.a.w was banning the games of chance was because people were gambling in them with REAL money that's why he said to not gamble your money away on games which are played with a dice.

Now you tell me what harm it is going to do to me if I'm playing for nothing, I don't win or lose anything.

And if I accept it, you're ignoring what I said, if something which is haram just because time is wasted on it then this also makes about 80% of the things we do haram because we do invest in things without knowing the outcome for sure i.e. going to a university like I mentioned above.

:salam2: Brother,

Eid Mubarak!

I hope I can give the answer you expect, Insha Allah. Allah says in Surah Al-Baqarah (http://quran.com/2/219):
They ask you about wine and gambling. Say, "In them is great sin and [yet, some] benefit for people. But their sin is greater than their benefit." And they ask you what they should spend. Say, "The excess [beyond needs]." Thus Allah makes clear to you the verses [of revelation] that you might give thought.

So, lets give it a deeper thought. Of course, you invest time and skill in things without knowing the outcome for sure. But, what is extra thing you need other than time and skill in those activities? It is the blessing of Allah. For e.g., examination or applying to a university. You can prepare well for them, invest time and use your intelligence (given by Allah) and rely on Allah for a positive outcome.

But what happens in online poker, or dice games or card games? There is less skill involved there. Now, in a card game, you depend on the card you get. In a game involving dice, you rely on dice. In online poker, you rely on the random card generation algorithm of the game of poker. So, I think it is a form of Shirk. You don't rely completely on Allah or his gifts like intelligence or skill.

One more thing is the Dominant Factor Test (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominant_Factor_Test). Some courts in US has ruled poker has "Game of chance" by this test. And most states have accepted this test. Some courts have also ruled poker as a Game of skill but I wouldn't advice you to take a chance on this. I don't know what the court of Allah has to say. In my case, whenever I have a doubt if something is haraam or halal, I just avoid it. I think that will be for good.

Allah clearly says "In them is great sin and [yet, some] benefit for people. But their sin is greater than their benefit." So, you might think there is fun in it. But, only Allah knows, there might be some sin involved. And I wouldn't take a chance if I were you.

I hope that helps.

Jazakallahu Khair!

 

[Astrugglingsoul]

:salam2: Brother,

Eid Mubarak!

I hope I can give the answer you expect, Insha Allah. Allah says in Surah Al-Baqarah (http://quran.com/2/219):
They ask you about wine and gambling. Say, "In them is great sin and [yet, some] benefit for people. But their sin is greater than their benefit." And they ask you what they should spend. Say, "The excess [beyond needs]." Thus Allah makes clear to you the verses [of revelation] that you might give thought.

So, lets give it a deeper thought. Of course, you invest time and skill in things without knowing the outcome for sure. But, what is extra thing you need other than time and skill in those activities? It is the blessing of Allah. For e.g., examination or applying to a university. You can prepare well for them, invest time and use your intelligence (given by Allah) and rely on Allah for a positive outcome.

But what happens in online poker, or dice games or card games? There is less skill involved there. Now, in a card game, you depend on the card you get. In a game involving dice, you rely on dice. In online poker, you rely on the random card generation algorithm of the game of poker. So, I think it is a form of Shirk. You don't rely completely on Allah or his gifts like intelligence or skill.

One more thing is the Dominant Factor Test (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominant_Factor_Test). Some courts in US has ruled poker has "Game of chance" by this test. And most states have accepted this test. Some courts have also ruled poker as a Game of skill but I wouldn't advice you to take a chance on this. I don't know what the court of Allah has to say. In my case, whenever I have a doubt if something is haraam or halal, I just avoid it. I think that will be for good.

Allah clearly says "In them is great sin and [yet, some] benefit for people. But their sin is greater than their benefit." So, you might think there is fun in it. But, only Allah knows, there might be some sin involved. And I wouldn't take a chance if I were you.

I hope that helps.

Jazakallahu Khair!

:salam2: brother
Eid Mubarak!!
how about we just leave this topic right now. we all understand your point. couple of days ago someone shared a video of brother nouman ali khan and in which he said we are not the kind of person who will dwell over halal and haram. we are not qualified for that and he also mentioned that we have to be careful from people who actually label everything as haram. another thing he mentioned is when we discuss something we should think whether it is a major priority or not. i don't think playing poker, monopoly or something is a huge issue to dwell right now because our youth have much bigger problems to solve. and everyone in this forum don't have the same understanding either. i hope you understand what i mean. okay here are the two videos
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCysR2YyxIs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNcTvKVaAIc&feature=related