Islam as a political ideology

[TiLK]

Hello.

I was looking for this and Im sure its talked somewhere in this forum already but I couldnt find. If it really is there, please post me a link or some other source of informations. If its not there yet, lets talk about it here.

Is Islam only a religion (personal ideology, way of life) or also a political ideology (some political scientists talk about islamism).

To be honest, from what I learnt about Islam until today it seems to me that being muslim is a personal decision of every man, moreover it is prohibited to force somebody to be muslim. But my understanding if Islamism is, that it is a kind of government of a whole state and its laws are used for every citizen of this state, if its muslim or not. Please, let us discuss a bit about this difficult matter.

 

[a_brother]

:salam2: brother TiLK

brother TiLK, can any one be just as can Allah be... there is no doubt that Allah's way is the right way... following what he tell us is for our own good... you, me or anyone else would have different ideas of different subjects, therefore there would be many arguments, if we follow Allah, then there is no arguments and all people would be at peace... Salam brother

 

[TiLK]

To be honest, I didnt really get your answer. What does it have to do with my question? I dont want to talk about ways of life, I just wonder if it really is said in Islam that there should be muslim gowernment. As you surely know, there is many things now certain said in Islam and there is place to discuss. And that is what I would like to do here.

 

[al-fajr]

...I just wonder if it really is said in Islam that there should be muslim gowernment. As you surely know, there is many things now certain said in Islam and there is place to discuss...

Yes, it does say there should be an Islamic State, with Islamic Law, AKA Khilafah.

 

[a_brother]

To be honest, I didnt really get your answer. What does it have to do with my question? I dont want to talk about ways of life, I just wonder if it really is said in Islam that there should be muslim gowernment. As you surely know, there is many things now certain said in Islam and there is place to discuss. And that is what I would like to do here.

:salam2:

Brother TiLK, how can one differentiate between way of life and an islamic government??? a government is set according to the community/people of that area... if people wants to practice islam and have it as a way of life, then they would want to have a group of people (government) to act up-on islam....

assume the word having only 100 people, they want to practice islam and have it as a way of life... they would elect 10 people to take care of the community affairs... the community would conduct business and have families... there would be problems rising and solutions needs to made... problems such as riba, stilling, killing, zina/sex-abuse, and so on and so forth... those 10 people need to make decisions and the Quran and sunnah tell them how to deal with these things. if they follow the Quran and sunnah, then they have islam as a way of life and they will succeed...

 

[TiLK]

:salam2:

Brother TiLK, how can one differentiate between way of life and an islamic government??? a government is set according to the community/people of that area... if people wants to practice islam and have it as a way of life, then they would want to have a group of people (government) to act up-on islam....

Although this could be really correct if everybody in that area are muslims, its only a dream because there is not any state in the world where would live only muslims. Countries are mixed and people are free to decide where they want to belong. So if the goverment is islamic, they are not free to glorify religion they choossed, moreover they are forced to keep rules which they do not believe in.

There is big difference between way of life and government. Government gives us laws, borders, tells what is allowed and what it not. They are duty for every member of the state. No matter if he is muslim, christian, hindu or so. No matter if he is male or female, black or white. With way of life I mean personal ideology. Your own rules which you gave to yourself, your view of the world, which you choose. Even Islam says that you can not force this view to others. You can teach them Islam, tells them how you pray, why you believe Allah, but you are not allowed to force them or to use violence. And this is problem of islamic states. Why would one christian woman have to wear scarf or practice some other duties of religion which she doesn't believe in?

 

[a_brother]

Hi Tilk

you are right, Islam teach us that no muslim can force islam to someone else, there is no compulsory in Islam...

if you want to come to US and work, then you agree to the rules that US has in its land (paying tax, going to jail for a crime, and so on)... like wise, if you go to an "islamic country" you would agree to their rules as well... if you not going to abide to the rules of that community (US, "Islamic state", or any other community), then don't go to it!!! each community enforces certain rules. if you want to go to that community, then you need to respect their rule... hope it's clear now... Peace

 

[abu'muhammad]

brothers,

I pardon the mercy of Allah. and appreciate your talk

To myself, there is no concept such as Islamic government. government is for all whether may be of any religion. To perform the fards of islam, muslim countires have made certain regulations for muslims. So tht doesn't mean, they are distracting or boycotting others. truely,it isnt the case. Islam is complete religion - has given knowledge from pen to pin and politics to zoology.so the rules and regulations of islamic countries have impact of Islam . There isn't any compulsion for non muslims to be at such rules that are laid for muslims.


We can see people living in saudi arabia without doing Hajj . Islam has never made Hajj compulsion for anyone. Neither forced anyone to be muslim.If someone is embracing islam its for his/her benefit of akhirah.

 

[a_brother]

:salam2:

i put "" in islamic government because i don't know of a country that practice and enforces islamic rules... However, by looking at the time of our Prophet Mohammed (SAW) and generations after him, Islam made its people rich in material and spiritual sense, there was JUSTICE and PEACE because muslims were practicing Islam... May Allah protect us

 

[TiLK]

Hi Tilk

you are right, Islam teach us that no muslim can force islam to someone else, there is no compulsory in Islam...

if you want to come to US and work, then you agree to the rules that US has in its land (paying tax, going to jail for a crime, and so on)... like wise, if you go to an "islamic country" you would agree to their rules as well... if you not going to abide to the rules of that community (US, "Islamic state", or any other community), then don't go to it!!! each community enforces certain rules. if you want to go to that community, then you need to respect their rule... hope it's clear now... Peace

You are right that when one goes to a country he should accept its rules. But there are things which can not be accpeted, although people in that country agree with that. For example german people elected Hitler before 2nd world war. He has legitimity of the citizens. Many of things he did against jews were supported by a lot of citizens in Germany. But that does not mean that it was acceptable, or that it was fair. So the election and sympaty of the citizens is not everything.

I dont know much about laws in Islam. But one of them says, that one man witness is equal to two women witnesses at the court. But the chart of human rights says that every person on the world is equal at the court. So, when muslim woman accept rules of her religion, its all right when she is not equal to man, if it goes to muslim laws at the court. But what if christian woman is being judged in islamic country? Her voice has half of power of the mans one. And it is against her rights.

So, what I want to say is that rules in Islam are in some ways against human rights as they are understood in western world. And so I think they should not be used for those who are not muslims. Islam tells to respect other religions. It also means not to judge them as muslims. But islamic government judge every citizen of its state, if they are muslims or not. Thats why it seems to me that islamic government in fact doesnt respect the teaching of Islam. At least all islamic countries there are at this time in the world. If there would be area where every person whould wish to be leaded by muslim government, it would be all right. But there is no such a country at this time.

 

[a_brother]

Hi Tilk

you stated: "So the election and sympaty of the citizens is not everything."
that's why i said: "brother TiLK, can any one be just as can Allah be... there is no doubt that Allah's way is the right way"

about women witness. Please read these threads
Equality of Witnesses: http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showpost.php?p=194587&postcount=29

ISLAM IGNORES HUMAN RIGHTS ???? :
http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showpost.php?p=196508&postcount=1

other misconception: http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31326&highlight=witness

best example are the muslims during our prophet Mohammed (SAW) and his generation... i would encourage you to read about our Prophet Mohammed (SAW) and the companions who ruled the muslim (abu-bakr and umar (alayhim-salam)):
http://www.anwary-islam.com/

good having this conversation with you TiLK

 

[TiLK]

Thank you for the links you gave me. I dont want to talk here about equality of withnesses in Islam, I mentioned it as an example because I dont know many of Islam laws. I dont judge this equality/inequality, it is completely right when woman and man accept it. But those who are not muslims should not be judged with such a law. Their opinion should be respected.

I also didnt say that Islam ignores human rights. It surely does protect many of them. But I said some of things in Islam (for example equality of withnesses) is against human rights, as they are understood in west (for example as UN define them).

Btw thanks for the last link. I am really interested how this event used to be solved during the age of Mohammed.

 

[a_brother]

you are more than welcome TiLK, hope you enjoy your reading

 

[xSharingan01x]

Although this could be really correct if everybody in that area are muslims, its only a dream because there is not any state in the world where would live only muslims. Countries are mixed and people are free to decide where they want to belong. So if the goverment is islamic, they are not free to glorify religion they choossed, moreover they are forced to keep rules which they do not believe in.

There is big difference between way of life and government. Government gives us laws, borders, tells what is allowed and what it not. They are duty for every member of the state. No matter if he is muslim, christian, hindu or so. No matter if he is male or female, black or white. With way of life I mean personal ideology. Your own rules which you gave to yourself, your view of the world, which you choose. Even Islam says that you can not force this view to others. You can teach them Islam, tells them how you pray, why you believe Allah, but you are not allowed to force them or to use violence. And this is problem of islamic states. Why would one christian woman have to wear scarf or practice some other duties of religion which she doesn't believe in?

:salam2:
TLK I believe you're criticizing only the trivial details of a society. The example of a Christian women you gave in your post applies to a Muslim living in United States or let's say France (where head scarves is banned in public institutions) When a Muslim decides to live in a foreign land for livelihood or whatever is reason he/she must obey the laws of the state so long as it does not interfere in practicing Islam. Likewise when the Christian women decides to live in a majority Muslim country she has to obey the law of the land, and if the law of the land is not satisfactory for her, she can migrate to elsewhere.

I don't really see a problem in that.
I don't think minority groups like Christians and Jews in the Middle East had problems practicing their religion in majority Muslim countries.



Shoaib

 

[xSharingan01x]

Thank you for the links you gave me. I don't want to talk here about equality of witnesses in Islam, I mentioned it as an example because I don't know many of Islam laws. I don't judge this equality/inequality, it is completely right when woman and man accept it. But those who are not Muslims should not be judged with such a law. Their opinion should be respected.

I also didn't say that Islam ignores human rights. It surely does protect many of them. But I said some of things in Islam (for example equality of witnesses) is against human rights, as they are understood in west (for example as UN define them).

Btw thanks for the last link. I am really interested how this event used to be solved during the age of Mohamed.

:salam2:

Ok it seems though you're going in a circle, and I'm becoming confuse along with you. lol
Ok I Understand what you were trying to highlight by giving the example of the witnesses, however I would like to think you sincerely gave a weak misinformed example which is a bit unfair to the Muslims, especially because the example and your point are two different issues as you stated.

That being said, I believe a brother earlier answered you when he made the statement something along this line "if you choose to live in a country then it is understood you made a social contract with the government of the country and must abide by its laws and rules". The moral legitimacy of the laws and regulations of a nation state is relative according to what you believe.
These are minor details and rights of a minority that ultimately do not effect their day to day life.

Similarly a Muslim can ask, why should I pay tax to Uncle Sam, when I'm only commanded to pay the obligatory zakah to the poor?
As you and I know such argument is invalid because I had already given up that right not to pay taxes when I made the social contract with the United States government.
That is like asking when two Muslims engage in a civil dispute and the matter needs to be settled in court, now which court do they follow,
the United States court or the Sharia Court?
Why should a Muslim accept the ruling of the United States court?
Similarly you should ask why should the Christian women accept the ruling of the Islamic government.
We are going to keep running in a circle.
The differences in human morals and behavior will always exist.
The Nuremberg Laws might have been deemed necessary and just to the eyes of the Nazis at the time, just like the discrimination against the Japanese in United States.
Such scenarios could never take place if one implements Islamic law in a society, and hence why We Muslims are happy to sign such social contract with an Islamic government. (but there isn't such government lol ).

Wasalam.

p.s. I get the impression you're not a Muslim? Thank you for asking, hopefully the replies you received were helpful.

Shoaib

 

[TiLK]

Your arguments are reasonable and fair. This is clearly problem of these days. What to do with muslims in France or German? Shall they accept the rules there or should they keep their own isalm rules? And its maybe the same about islam countries. But there is also no doubt that we can not accept the behaviour of some government - for example China, Nord Korea and so on, although they behave so to its own citizents. So the question is, where is the border. And its really difficoult one.

But let me come back to the beginning. Is it Allah or Muhammad who said that there should be established a musim government in a area where muslim lives? Or its only one of opinions? Is there any text in Koran or Hadith saying that this is one of goals of muslims?

to xSharingan01x: No, I am not muslim at this time.

 

[tabaria]

:salam2:

In the Islamic state non-muslims aren't required to adhere to the sharia. Rather they are Dhimmi and follow their own laws.

There are examples where the prophet (pbuh) judged between jews at their request and used their own laws rather than sharia.

 

[TiLK]

Oh, thank you very much! This is importnat information. Does it work so also in islamic states like Iran, Egypt, Pakistan and so on?

 

[nyerekareem]

:salam2:

islam is more than a religion it is a way of life. we are to live under the laws of the shariah. most of us do not live in a nation that rules by shariah, however that does not mean that we aren't able to impose shariah upon ourselves.

most importantly, we as muslims should believe that shariah is the law of ALLAH SWT, who is perfect in justice. i believe in my heart of hearts that the world needs, for it's own benefit, to follow the laws of shariah. it was really the laws of shariah that drew me towards embracing islam.

 

[tabaria]

Oh, thank you very much! This is importnat information. Does it work so also in islamic states like Iran, Egypt, Pakistan and so on?

First off, they are not islamic states, and even Iran which receives so much criticism actually allows churches to import wine for their ceremonies.