Islam as culture

[Multiculti]

Hello, I'm a guy that tries to promote Islam to many people on the internet. I believe, based on my life in the Netherlands, that the West needs to change its foundation to Islam, because it would make life so much better, and would solve most of the typical current Western problems. I talk about a modern Islam though, because Islamic countries also sometimes have their problems, as you know because issues are often discussed, the society in Saudi Arabia, Iran, issues like Taliban etc. Things that put the hairs of Western people straight up, and it prevents them from seeing what good Islam would do to them.

Today I had a new thought about all this, as I have new thoughts about what I'm doing every day. As I'm an atheist myself, which is about half the people in the West, I can't be a Muslim. Because I care about people, I would want them to benefit from Islam though, the tidy behaviour, the rules you can learn from, the respectful manner, the male circumcision, the dynamic social life, etc. I'm thinking about promoting Islam not only for believers, but also as a culture that atheists can benefit from. Because they are also people, and they also need an improvement in their life, and the best I can think of, is Islam! Seriously. And it's a very good solution to all the problems that Western people have, it's sad to see it. People are unhappy, their life a disappointment.

Anyway, I would like to ask you, how do you consider people that don't believe in God, and even Christians, to benefit from Islam by like "letting it influence their culture", to make something as an Islamic culture? Thanks.

 

[cmelbouzaidi]

Hello there. Most interesting post.... I kind of see where you are coming from, there are a lot of the practicalities in Islamic practices that are beneficial to follow and I am happy that you can see it.... A good Muslim peforms ritual ablutions (wash)five times a day before prayer, the way halal meat is slaughtered is cleaner and a very fast method which is not as cruel as conventional methods to the animal.... In fact, cleanliness is half of our religion. Even the way we pray in prostrating is good for the circulation.

However, all of these things that we do came with divine revelation from God (Allah) and without Him we would be truly lost. I am very used to atheists as most of my family in Ireland are really non-believers, which as you say is the norm in the West. Please understand, however, that Muslims believe that we were put on this earth with one main purpose only, and that is to worship the only One God. This is the base of Islam.

I would ask you if you have read Qur'an and if not, I would recommend that you read it and keep in touch on this forum in the discussions and with your questions and see what develops. I appreciate that you want Islam, from a cultural perspective, to influence other people's cultures, as many would not want this so you are open-minded. However, bear in mind that Islam means submission to the One God and everything that we have learned through Qur'an and the example of our prophet Mohammed, peace be upon him, is from divine inspiration in our estimation.

Good luck to you and keep in touch

 

[palestine]

well we already as muslims consider islam as our culture. so it's already out there. as for your post- i think by heart you already are a muslim. and no i'm not trying to make you convert, but if you already accept the practices of islam why not become a muslim instead of beating around the bush. i believe that if anyone looks at islam closer like you have, then they would see that there is no doubt in believing in the one god Allah. and that they would turn their life around and become muslims( submitters to Allah). peace.

 

[Aapa]

Salaam,

An atheist is one who does not accept God. Unlike an agnostic who questions the concept of a divine being. Thus an atheist has understood in his mind that there can never be God. An agnostic is simply in a state of unknown i.e. ignorance and selecting not to do anything about it.

Given your question it is hard to understand why you would consider yourself an atheist. A person who denies God can not promote a religion. Please understand that I am not attempting to judge you nor am I trying to be coy. I am serious.

The heart of Islam is Allah subhana talla. The universe of Islam is submission to Allah subhana talla. The dictates of culture and society are based on fear and devotion to Allah subhana talla.

Islam is not to be taken in piecemeal. It is a totality. As long as individuals do not submit to Allah subhana talla their lives will reflect conflict and confusion. This is the simple truth.

 

[TheHumbleWun]

Hello Multiculti,

We certainly appreciate your outlook on Islam. There are many people that don't receive this blessing. Take advantage of it. The Quran is just one book, read it like any other, and see what the 1.8 billion around the globe are following.

One of the most important things Islam differs from other religions is that Islam is a culture of shame and guilt. Etiquettes and respectable manners are built around this idea. In many Western societies, people can drink, use profanity, dress provocatively, make out with their partner openly without any shame.
Read what Islam offers and make sure that it always answers your questions. I believe your on the right path and on the verge of becoming the epitome of a good Muslim.

Here is an quote from a former atheist that a brother on here posted:

"You cannot simply read the Qur'an, not if you take it seriously. You either have surrendered to it already or you fight it. It attacks tenaciously, directly, personally; it debates, criticizes, shames, and challenges. From the outset it draws the line of battle, and I was on the other side."

Thus he found himself in an interesting battle. "I was at a severe disadvantage, for it became clear that the Author knew me better than I knew myself."

It was as if the Author was reading his mind. Every night he would make up certain questions and objections, but would find the answer in his next readings as he continued his readings in the accepted order. "The Qur'an was always way ahead of my thinking; it was erasing barriers I had built years ago and was addressing my queries."

Source: www.readingislam.com

Were they created by nothing? Or were they themselves the creators (of themselves)? Or did they create heaven and earth? Nay, but they are not sure.” (Quran 52:35-36)

 

[Multiculti]

well becoming Muslims would be a solution for us, but it's not possible if you don't believe in God. I only want to make a decision that others could also make. So for now I can't be a Muslim, or I need arguments or an example for other people that have found a solution for this problem. Because there's millions of Muslims in Islamic countries, and very few agnosts/atheists. So their solution may be good enough for Western people. But I have a hard head in it, maybe the culture itself needs to adapt to non-believers. And accept non-believers, in the Islamic life. I mean, the Chinese are doing well right, and they're mostly atheists, so there's other explanations for how everything's working.

Personally for example I believe that there's two problems that cause the degraded Western society, two main problems, Christianity and not being circumcised. Christianity puts the world on its head, it tells the men to be like women, to be sweet and soft, and walk away in a confrontation. Also to be lazy, and to follow. Because Paulus said you need only believe, works are not necessary. I have reasons to doubt the intentions of this man Paulus, who so much seems to have changed the message of the prophet Jezus. Too bad that we may never know a satisfactory amount of the truth.
Not being circumcised has a similar effect, it keeps men down, it keeps them from developing into men, and they have a dirtier mind. So there's 2 forces working against the unfortunate Western people, and the two combined makes it complicated, and keeps Christians and Muslims apart! They don't really mix, and people don't understand the reasons, and the Christian guys can't bridge the gap. This is mostly because noone knows about the circumcision.

So this is the problem of a non-believer, he can find out that his own Christian system has shortcomings, and that Islam has many solutions. Still Islam also has shortcomings, for example it may hold back science, and there seems to exist some prejudice against non-Muslims, mostly Jews. I'll have to read the Quran to know more about it though.

So if you know solutions for this problem, please let me know. Should the Middle East accept atheists into its culture (remember that more than half the world population is atheist, think of the Chinese), should atheists find a way to believe in God, should Western people have an alternative to Islam that would still improve atheists' lives and be a system with many similarities to Islam, or is there another solution. A solution to solve the Western social problems, and to bring the Western and Middle Eastern people together?

 

[cmelbouzaidi]

Dear Sir,

This is more complicated than I had first thought! Thanks for sharing your thoughts with us..... I will take another look and try to come up with an intelligent and civil response

Take care.

well becoming Muslims would be a solution for us, but it's not possible if you don't believe in God. I only want to make a decision that others could also make. So for now I can't be a Muslim, or I need arguments or an example for other people that have found a solution for this problem. Because there's millions of Muslims in Islamic countries, and very few agnosts/atheists. So their solution may be good enough for Western people. But I have a hard head in it, maybe the culture itself needs to adapt to non-believers. And accept non-believers, in the Islamic life. I mean, the Chinese are doing well right, and they're mostly atheists, so there's other explanations for how everything's working.

Personally for example I believe that there's two problems that cause the degraded Western society, two main problems, Christianity and not being circumcised. Christianity puts the world on its head, it tells the men to be like women, to be sweet and soft, and walk away in a confrontation. Also to be lazy, and to follow. Because Paulus said you need only believe, works are not necessary. I have reasons to doubt the intentions of this man Paulus, who so much seems to have changed the message of the prophet Jezus. Too bad that we may never know a satisfactory amount of the truth.
Not being circumcised has a similar effect, it keeps men down, it keeps them from developing into men, and they have a dirtier mind. So there's 2 forces working against the unfortunate Western people, and the two combined makes it complicated, and keeps Christians and Muslims apart! They don't really mix, and people don't understand the reasons, and the Christian guys can't bridge the gap. This is mostly because noone knows about the circumcision.

So this is the problem of a non-believer, he can find out that his own Christian system has shortcomings, and that Islam has many solutions. Still Islam also has shortcomings, for example it may hold back science, and there seems to exist some prejudice against non-Muslims, mostly Jews. I'll have to read the Quran to know more about it though.

So if you know solutions for this problem, please let me know. Should the Middle East accept atheists into its culture (remember that more than half the world population is atheist, think of the Chinese), should atheists find a way to believe in God, should Western people have an alternative to Islam that would still improve atheists' lives and be a system with many similarities to Islam, or is there another solution. A solution to solve the Western social problems, and to bring the Western and Middle Eastern people together?

 

[dianek]

What does circumcision have to do with Western problems??????????? And how does it equate to men in the West not being "manly"....on the contrary....I find western men as being VERY masculine....more so than my Arab husband. I like a man who can change a tire, fix an engine, build a deck, has knowledge that apparently they don't teach very many foreign men. I would say that foreign men are LESS masculine than Western men but have bigger egos!

Haha! I do like though that as an atheist you are able to sit back and openly view all religions.......I was Christian, turned "muslim", now agnostic in that I have a hard time balancing a lot of what I have read on islam though I agree with the morals of the faith completely........

 

[cmelbouzaidi]

What does circumcision have to do with Western problems??????????? And how does it equate to men in the West not being "manly"....on the contrary....I find western men as being VERY masculine....more so than my Arab husband. I like a man who can change a tire, fix an engine, build a deck, has knowledge that apparently they don't teach very many foreign men. I would say that foreign men are LESS masculine than Western men but have bigger egos!

Haha! I do like though that as an atheist you are able to sit back and openly view all religions.......I was Christian, turned "muslim", now agnostic in that I have a hard time balancing a lot of what I have read on islam though I agree with the morals of the faith completely........

I agree with you, dianek What does circumcision have to do with Western problems?!!! Also, it is worth noting that nearly all baby boys in the USA are circumcized shortly after birth, regardless of religion, just as a matter of hygeine. I did not like where the gentleman was going with these "manly men" comments.... I fear that this person has a wharped view of Muslims and thinks of Muslim men as chauvinist (spelling?) macho men that mistreat women. This is far from the teachings of Islam and from the example of our beloved prophet, Mohammed, peace be upon him. Don't forget that Islam gives women the right to keep all of the money she earns and she is not answerable to her husband for how she spends it, the same goes for her dowry. Islam was the first religion to grant women the right to inheritance. Marriage is a partnership, as outlined yet again in the Prophet Mohammed's last sermon, we are here to compliment and support each other, not for one to have supreme authority over the other.

I do disagree with you that Western men are more "manly" than arabs, dianek! My father, Irish, cannot even change a plug, the poor thing. My husband, on the other hand, an arab from Morocco, is the handiest guy I know! He can paint, lay tile, change a tire (lol), run computer and telephone cables hidden in the wall, and he is also an excellent cook! He is also maticulous with keeping things in a clean and orderly manner and far from the slobs of Western husbands in my blood family!! This is my own personal experience. My brother-in-law in Ireland doesn't even know how to throw on a laundry and he accused my husband of coming from a culture that disrespects women, what a joke!! But God forbid if his (b-i-l's) meal is not on the table when he gets home from work.... just who is being disrespectful of women?!

 

[TheHumbleWun]

Still Islam also has shortcomings, for example it may hold back science

Hello Multiculti:

I appreciate your thoughts and inquiries. You are talking about many different issues here. I will try to tackle it one at a time. Islam has answers to every day life situations. The only way to know this is to read & study what the Quran says. It's the religion of logic and it is only the wise ones that accept it as their creed.

There are no shortcoming of science in Islam. There are ample of scientific miracles in the Quran, and many atheist like you have reverted to Islam. However, it's important to note that the Quran is NOT a book of science but a book of signs & guidance.

If one is trying to seek truth, peace and happiness to their life then it requires patience and effort. Inshallah (God willing) you find what you are looking for.

Please see the following threads regarding scientific miracles in the Quran:

http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9130

http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_index.html

http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21173


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2z73ohM_Rjw&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2z73ohM_Rjw&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21Ak-mNpF3Q&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cy6MIGQSvk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFjCfcASMeU&feature=related

Best wishes,

TheHumbleWun

 

[dianek]

Haha! I had to teach my husband (tunisian) how to change a tire, drive a stick, start a lawn mower, patch drywall, and he still won't do them....won't change the oil as he doesnt' know how to do that either...

My father and brother....there is NOTHING they can't do or won't figure out....build things, carpet, ceramic tile, electrical, car repairs, they are my manly men in my life......I guess I would like my husband to be more "Good Old Boy" and be interested in learning and doing.....and none of his friends do "manly" work.....they all drive ice cream trucks!!!! Haha!!! Sorry...but that is such a pathetic occupation for grown men! He owns his own truck so he gets all the money but still! I have no wussie men in my family and I can't stand it that he is. He is too "pretty boy" to get his hands dirty.

As for laundry, my husband doesn't know the difference between which one washes and which dries.

 

[TheHumbleWun]

and none of his friends do "manly" work.....they all drive ice cream trucks!!!! Haha!!! Sorry...but that is such a pathetic occupation for grown men!

Salaam Diane,

Who are you to determine if that is "manly" or not? You're failing to realize that men should be the provider of their home. You're sometimes letting your emotions get the best of logic. I think you are taking a lot of things for granted and this can be destructive to you emotionally and spiritually.

I find driving a ice cream truck very "manly" because most women don't drive trucks! As long as their partners are happy & they have a means of living is all that should matter. Let's not be so narrow minded.

Consider the fact, that there are people in this world that don't even have jobs! They are thousands of South Americans, Middle Easterners, Africans, and even Americans that are begging the government for $$ a and wondering on the corner of the streets with no where to sleep and no food to eat, starving in the cold winters and trying to find shade in the heat of the summer.

You should also realize all wealth is the possession of Allah with which humans are entrusted.

I don't think you should be judgmental and degrade your husband either, especially behind his back. This is a terrible outlook of marriage.

P.S. sorry Multiculti for going off tangent. I think we should stay focused on your thread.

 

[dianek]

Well if he provided for the family that would be manly enough but he sits on his money........I provide! And many women (college girls) drive ice cream trucks around here too. Infact I know women big rig trucks....

And not to mention that means he only works 4 months out of a year.....

But yeah, I agree, if he was out there using his profit to support us then great! I would love not to have to worry about how I pay xyz bills on my wages........

 

[TheHumbleWun]

Salaam,

A job is a job, whether it's a man driving a truck or a woman is driving a truck. Inshallah I hope things get better for you and your husband, but in the mean time appreciate what you have and make the best of everything that you have. Everyone has bills, everyone has their own trials and difficulties. You are not alone. Remain patient.

You might like this video.

[yt]GPuL9Jb_UWc[/yt]

"Verily We sent (Messengers) to many nations before you (O Muhammad SAW). And We seized them with extreme poverty (or loss in wealth) and loss in health (with calamities) so that they might humble themselves (believe with humility)" (6:42)

 

[cmelbouzaidi]

Haha! I had to teach my husband (tunisian) how to change a tire, drive a stick, start a lawn mower, patch drywall, and he still won't do them....won't change the oil as he doesnt' know how to do that either...

My father and brother....there is NOTHING they can't do or won't figure out....build things, carpet, ceramic tile, electrical, car repairs, they are my manly men in my life......I guess I would like my husband to be more "Good Old Boy" and be interested in learning and doing.....and none of his friends do "manly" work.....they all drive ice cream trucks!!!! Haha!!! Sorry...but that is such a pathetic occupation for grown men! He owns his own truck so he gets all the money but still! I have no wussie men in my family and I can't stand it that he is. He is too "pretty boy" to get his hands dirty.

As for laundry, my husband doesn't know the difference between which one washes and which dries.

:salam2: that's a riot, dianek!! it goes to show you that it has nothing to do with arab or non arab as morocco cannot be that different from tunisia. my dad and brother are the non-handy ones, although they can both cook. my mom was the handy one growing up. however, i don't think there is anything wrong with driving an icecream truck for a profession, it beats sitting around collecting unemployment also, there is nothing wrong with a well-groomed muslim man as long as he is not wearing silk or gold and effeminate clothing

hang in there.... as long as your husband is a good husband and follows the qur'an and sunnah for role model, things should be on the right track, Insha Allah.

 

[Multiculti]

Thanks for the replies. Dianek you chose your husband, now don't complain so much...
you have a Muslim husband, and now you're an agnost, that's interesting. You probably think like me about some aspects.
About circumcision having an influence on men, well it's about 2 aspects, harder mentality and cleanliness. The mentality part is about a different way of making love, which gives a man a harder mentality in general. The cleanliness part, is about a man having a cleaner mind if he has a cleaner body. I'm quite sure of these things, they are the basis of the psychology of the circumcision, I'm not talking about the advanced stuff, although I know about it. It's people experience, as well as personal experience, as well as that it's what I do, analysing external influences to improve people's lives, because there's much to improve in Western life.

TheHumbleWun I don't understand your saying that the Quran is a book about signs? I understand guidance though.
You seem to be good with people, and trusting in their good nature.
I agree with the ice cream truck profession being allright, it should be a rewarding job as you get to see so many happy childrens' faces every day. Personally I would try to find something for the winter months though, but as long as you do something useful there's nothing wrong right?

I'm thinking of a new concept, a cultural Muslim. As a bridge between atheists, Christians and Muslims. Atheists won't start believing in God all of a sudden, to which I'm a proof. So this concept would help in your life, by enabling you to benefit from the system of Islam, and being better with Muslims and people in general. Also it gives a framework that people need, and Islam is a good framework that adds something to everyone's life. Besides it gives an excuse to be circumcised, as I find it important.. I'm planning on telling people they can be a cultural Muslim.

 

[cmelbouzaidi]

Well if he provided for the family that would be manly enough but he sits on his money........I provide! And many women (college girls) drive ice cream trucks around here too. Infact I know women big rig trucks....

And not to mention that means he only works 4 months out of a year.....

But yeah, I agree, if he was out there using his profit to support us then great! I would love not to have to worry about how I pay xyz bills on my wages........

this must be a stressful situation, especially if there are kids involved. my advice to you is get your husband involved in the local masjid community as much as possible. i find that the men who have sometimes strayed away from their responsiblities as a husband (inasmuch as being the provider) avoid the masjid but attending some sermons, especially pertaining to marriage, would be good for both of you, actually. i know you say you are now agnostic and previously muslim (if i read it right). i hope you know that islamic values have the perfect recipe for a good solid marriage and that your own personal situation did not put you off the religion.

you are on this forum as you want to understand more about islam. it sounds like your husband could be more involved in this journey too. i suggest you go to sermons at the masjid together and discuss the sermons to strengthen your relationship. usually, you can pass in questions for the imam, also

hang in there, this life is not a bed of roses but we are still luckier than the vast majority in this world... the fact that we can read and write and even access the internet makes us "richer" than most

 

[TheHumbleWun]

TheHumbleWun I don't understand your saying that the Quran is a book about signs? I understand guidance though.
You seem to be good with people, and trusting in their good nature.
I agree with the ice cream truck profession being allright, it should be a rewarding job as you get to see so many happy childrens' faces every day. Personally I would try to find something for the winter months though, but as long as you do something useful there's nothing wrong right?

The question pertaining to the Quran as a book of sign is found below. I strongly recommend you read entire article:

Congratulating an Athiest by Dr. Zakir Naik

Francis Bacon, the famous philosopher, has rightly said that a little knowledge of science makes man an atheist, but an in-depth study of science makes him a believer in God.

"Soon We will show them our signs in the (farthest) regions (of the earth), and in their own souls, until it becomes manifest to them that this is the Truth. Is it not enough that thy Lord doth witness all things?" (41:53)

Thank you Multiculti for the warm comments. It is the principles and cultures of Islam that has taught me these etiquettes

It's important to be productive every day. If we remain stagnant in our state and condition we can never become the best potential individual that God has made us. Even if the person does nothing useful in the winter months, if he put some effort in educating himself, he would probably find himself qualified for workers compensation under U.S. Federal regulations

 

[Multiculti]

Up to now what I know of Islam has been from people, I'll try to read the Quran, and see if there's something that would change my mind (probably not).

Some people would say it's wrong to see Islam as a culture, and to say Salaam Aleikum and join in Islamic festivities, and join the fasting and dinner afterwards as a non-Muslim, is this correct? Because I'm seeing this as a good solution to bring Muslims and atheists/Christians together. Really many people will stay atheist, also in Islamic countries. How are these people treated in the Islamic countries if they're honest about it (in Turkey there should be many atheists/agnosts) they have to stop saying Salaam Aleikum etc? Thanks.

 

[Aapa]

Salaam,

You ask good questions. My slant is a little different. I understand you want good. When someone says salaam it is my duty to return a better salaam. I do not know the content of a persons heart. Muslims are encouraged to engage with others. However, to a degree this would be very superficial. I am being honest. It is also my duty to constantly be on the quest to improve my knowledge and depth of faith. Thus, there are circumstances where there is a need for Muslim to Muslim contact.
Please read the Quran.
By the way you never answered my questions. Would you be so kind as to. It would facilitate clear conversation.