Muslim quoting the bible

slaveofAllah88

Slave of Allah (swt)
:salam2:
I have a confusion, i was on another website where i was listenning to an online lecture, I was told not to use bible sometimes to show the christians they are wrong in their believes.

Is that true? cuz i know Ahmed deedat and Zakir Naik did/do that?

Also, i thought quran clearly states that Quran is the judge of what has been revealed before Quran, so there could be some truth in other text right?

To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what God hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If God had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to God; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;

Surah 5 Verse 48

Im asking this cuz i show great liking to lectureres like Sheikh Ahmed deedat and Zakir Naik, and while debating with christians i will often use their scriptures to show that that this part contradicts what they are saying, Or show from the bible that other Prophet (PBUT) were given the same message but it has been lose due to too many addition by people using their own hands

Please any fatwa or reference would be great
Also, Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) never used bible or other religious scriptures to do dawaah, so us doing so would it be Bidaah?

Thank you for the help
 

Hard Rock Moslem

I'm your brother
:salam2:
Also, i thought quran clearly states that Quran is the judge of what has been revealed before Quran, so there could be some truth in other text right?

I do not have any fatwa, but in comparative religion studies you have to refer other scriptures as well. I do believe some of the verses in the bible, torah, vedas etc are words of God and it is being purposely being retained as it is so it will be a proof to the non-muslim.

I quote below verses from Surah Al-Araaf, 7.157:

Those who follow the Messenger (Muhammad), the unlettered Prophet whom they find written in the Torah and the Gospel with them, he enjoins upon them that which is virtuous and forbids them that which is evil; he allows them all that is good and forbids for them all that is foul. And he releases them from their burdens and from the shackles that were upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, assist him and follow the light which has been sent down with him, it is they who will be successful.

Check the one I underlined, is it not true that The Prophet Muhammad (Allah's blessings and peace be upon him) was mentioned in the today's Bible? Sheikh Ahmad Deedat (may Allah bless his soul) had proved this in many of his debates. I think it is wrong to say we should not use bible when talking to christians because we can quote Quranic verses which says bible has been corrupted but they will not believe until we show the proof from their bible.
 

mhamzah

Junior Member
:salam2:


I am trying hard not to reply these days, but couldn't resist replying to this one.

Three issues raised:

1. What does the Quran say about bible:


Nothing, Quran does the speak about the bible, rather it speaks about the scripture that is in possession of Jews and Christian. As a matter of fact, the bible does not speak about itself either. The word 'bible' is not to be found in the bible itself.

The Quran says 'Jews and Christians have access to truth i.e. authentic scripture and the forgeries in their possession.

Indeed, those who exchange the covenant of Allah and their [own] oaths for a small price will have no share in the Hereafter, and Allah will not speak to them or look at them on the Day of Resurrection, nor will He purify them; and they will have a painful punishment. (3:77)

The Qur'an’s basically makes three accusations.

What Quran criticizes is the way Jews and Christians use their scriptures. It says they have in their scriptures the truth, but they mishandle it. It makes basically three accusations.

(I) The Quran says some of the Jews and Christians pass over much of what is in their scriptures.

So for their breaking of the covenant We cursed them and made their hearts hard. They distort words from their [proper] usages and have forgotten a portion of that of which they were reminded. And you will still observe deceit among them, except a few of them. But pardon them and overlook [their misdeeds]. Indeed, Allah loves the doers of good. (5:13)

O People of the Scripture, there has come to you Our Messenger making clear to you much of what you used to conceal of the Scripture and overlooking much. There has come to you from Allah a light and a clear Book. (5:18)


Example:

Bible texts are produced to show that Jesus used the terms "son of man", "son of God", "Messiah", and "saviour". But each of these terms is applied to other individuals in the Bible. Ezekiel was addressed as "son of man" (Ezekiel chapter 3). Jesus himself speaks of the peacemakers as "sons of God" (Matthew 5:9). Cyrus the Persian is called "messiah" at Isaiah 45:1.

Again these terms are quoted to assert the divinity of Jesus, but the same terms are passed over when referred to other people.


(II) Some of them have changed the words, i.e. they mistranslate it, or misrepresent it, or they add to the meaning of it. They put a different slant on it.

So for their breaking of the covenant We cursed them and made their hearts hard. They distort words from their [proper] usages and have forgotten a portion of that of which they were reminded. And you will still observe deceit among them, except a few of them. But pardon them and overlook [their misdeeds]. Indeed, Allah loves the doers of good. (5:13)

Example:

Christians choose to cite the forty-third chapter of Isaiah as proof that there is only one saviour. Again, translators have tried to obscure the fact that God is the only saviour in the same ultimate sense that He is our only nourisher and protector, though men also have these assigned tasks. By over specifying this pronouncement in Isaiah they hope to have us believe that God equals saviour and Jesus equals saviour therefore Jesus equals God. The conspiracy of modern translation is easily demonstrated. The King James Bible of 1611 is everywhere available. Compare it to a more recent translation, say the New English Translation. In the earlier version we find 2 Kings 13:5 contains the word "saviour", but in the newer version the synonymous word "deliverer" has been substituted. In fact, "saviours", the plural, will be found at Obadiah 21 and Nehemiah 9:27. Here again, by substituting a different word, the connotation of divinity tied to the word "saviour" has been guarded in modern versions by less than honest translation.

(III) And the third accusation is that some people falsely attribute to God what is really written by men.

So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say, "This is from Allah ," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn. (2:79)

And indeed, there is among them a party who alter the Scripture with their tongues so you may think it is from the Scripture, but it is not from the Scripture. And they say, "This is from Allah ," but it is not from Allah . And they speak untruth about Allah while they know. (3:78)


Interestingly the accusation is in the bible itself.

How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? Lo, certainly in vain made he it; the pen of the scribes is in vain. (Jeremiah Chapter 8: 8 KJV)

http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/kjv/jer008.htm#008

How can you say, ‘We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us’, when, in fact, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie? (Jeremiah Chapter 8: 8 RSV)

http://bible.oremus.org/?passage=Jeremiah+8

Example;

In one of the New Testament Books, Paul goes on to list the men he once baptimised and finished as saying, there were others, but I don’t remember them now. This is the kind of objections Muslims have with some Christians who insist that every word in the bible is the word of God. Is this how God works, that He says don’t expect me to remember it now, it was a long time back? Plus there is other kind of stuff in the bible which we need not to go into right now.

2. Should Muslim quote the bible:

Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance. (6:125)

Say: "O People of the Book! come to common terms as between us and you: that we worship none but Allah. that we associate no partners with him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than Allah." If then they turn back, say ye: "Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah.s Will). (3:64)

How do we come to common terms between them and us, if we don't know what their scripture says? secondly we need to remember Prophet Muhammad s.a.w didnt knew how to read or write, so he could not have himself used their scripture.


Rather the Quran does that job, of course it does not go by chapter number and verse no, but it mention things which are in their scriptures. For example, one Ayah says that the last Prophet (pbuh) is mentioned in their own scripture.

Those who follow the Messenger (Muhammad), the unlettered Prophet whom they find written in the Torah and the Gospel with them, he enjoins upon them that which is virtuous and forbids them that which is evil; he allows them all that is good and forbids for them all that is foul. And he releases them from their burdens and from the shackles that were upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, assist him and follow the light which has been sent down with him, it is they who will be successful. (7:157)

Other example can we shown but it should suffice.

And Allah swt knows best

3. Debate issue:

I guess we have already discussed that before.


:wasalam:
 

mhamzah

Junior Member
:salam2:

Also, i thought quran clearly states that Quran is the judge of what has been revealed before Quran, so there could be some truth in other text right?

Thank you for the help

:salam2:

Does not the bible mention these things.

1. God is one. (first commandement vs. Quran 112:1)
2. Make no image o God. (2nd commandment) (Quran 112:4)
3. God is not man (hosea 11:9)
4. Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) -- (Deut 18:18 )
5. Faith and works both are important: (James 2:26 vs 103:1-3)
6. No pork (deut 14:8)
7. No offering foods to idols, no blood. (acts 15:29)
8. No wine (proverbs 20:1)
9. No adultery (5th commandement, double check the number)
10. Lowering of gaze: (Mathew 5:27-28)
11. Hajj: (Psalms 84:4-6)
12: Fasting.
13. Prayer
14. Wudu before prayer.
15. Follow the law/commandement. (Mathew 5:17-20)

Isn't that truth in their scripture, that is what we need to show to them.

:wasalam:
 

slaveofAllah88

Slave of Allah (swt)
aslam o alikum
thank you brothers :) those were mashallah very very beautiful answer :) you have cleared a big misconception.
JazakAllah khair :)

I still have 1 problem wat about Bidaah? would this be considered bidaah, since it was never done by Prophet Muhammed (PBUH)?
 

Hard Rock Moslem

I'm your brother
aslam o alikum
thank you brothers :) those were mashallah very very beautiful answer :) you have cleared a big misconception.
JazakAllah khair :)

I still have 1 problem wat about Bidaah? would this be considered bidaah, since it was never done by Prophet Muhammed (PBUH)?

Wa'alaikumusalam brother.

You mean to say did the Prophet refer to other "scriptures" while debating or having dialog with them? If this is your question, you will remember following hadith narrated by Umar:

A Jew and a Jewess were brought to Allah's Apostle on a charge of committing an illegal sexual intercourse. The Prophet asked them. "What is the legal punishment (for this sin) in your Book (torah)?" They replied, "Our priests have innovated the punishment of blackening the faces with charcoal and Tajbiya." 'Abdullah bin Salam said, "O Allah's Apostle, tell them to bring the torah." The torah was brought, and then one of the Jews put his hand over the Divine Verse of the Rajam (stoning to death) and started reading what preceded and what followed it. On that, Ibn Salam said to the Jew, "Lift up your hand." Behold! The Divine Verse of the Rajam was under his hand. So Allah's Apostle ordered that the two (sinners) be stoned to death, and so they were stoned. Ibn 'Umar added: So both of them were stoned at the Balat and I saw the Jew sheltering the Jewess. - Sahih Bukhari.

Therefore I don't think it is bidaah.
 

slaveofAllah88

Slave of Allah (swt)
aslam o alikum, thank you hard rock muslim

does this hadith also support, that since Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) never used any other religious scripture but the Quran to bring people to Islam, its still not bidaah if we do so?
 

Almeftah

Junior Member
السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

Here's my personal opinion..

Since we all know how the bible was altered, even though it has some proof confirming the lies of christians.. But we cant use lies to prove lies. We muslims must stay true to ourselves and others, And to use falseness to prove others to be wrong is considered hypocrisy.

I'm not saying that the scholars or anyone else who does so are hypocrites, But i think that using false info is like admitting it to be true.

(Surat Al-Baqara 2) Do you (faithful believers) covet that they will believe in your religion inspite of the fact that a party of them (Jewish rabbis) used to hear the Word of Allâh [the Taurât (Torah)], then they used to change it knowingly after they understood it? (75) And when they (Jews) meet those who believe (Muslims), they say, "We believe", but when they meet one another in private, they say, "Shall you (Jews) tell them (Muslims) what Allâh has revealed to you [Jews, about the description and the qualities of Prophet Muhammad Peace be upon him , that which are written in the Taurât (Torah)] [], that they (Muslims) may argue with you (Jews) about it before your Lord?" Have you (Jews) then no understanding? (76) Know they (Jews) not that Allâh knows what they conceal and what they reveal? (77) And there are among them (Jews) unlettered people, who know not the Book, but they trust upon false desires and they but guess. (78) Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands and then say, "This is from Allâh," to purchase with it a little price! Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for that they earn thereby. (79)

And Allah is All Knower.
 

allah is with me

Rabana Wa laqal Hamd
I have a confusion, i was on another website where i was listenning to an online lecture, I was told not to use bible sometimes to show the christians they are wrong in their believes.

Is that true? cuz i know Ahmed deedat and Zakir Naik did/do that?
.......................................................................................................
brother , Allah had also sent gospel, and ingeel, ... so it will be very good for us , and Allah will be very happy , if we also memories the whole bible, because in bible, there are many good things... as Dr, zakir nayak says, and inshallah , i will first memories the furqaan(holy quran) an then memories the bible..
 
:salam2:

I don't think it is at all necessary to read the bible,

There preachers quote the bible all the time and they let it go in one ear and out the other. They don't act on it.(not all people but a large number of)

So why would you think they would listen to a muslim preaching to them their texts be any greater.

These arguments have gained popularity online and on tv by muslims more-so. Since muslims don't always find programs to inform people in such a way about their religion.

We need a solid understanding, with at least the basics of memorizing the Quran, with meaning, and supporting hadiths that explain ayat. And even more important, the interpretations of hadith and Quran that scholars explained. Muslim scholars have written on these quotes and have explained other religions in their writing too. This is where a lot of muslim speakers who speak nowadays get their information and explanation. They just read and interpret to english.

perhaps this is not what you wanted to here from the thread title you posted. But if I would advise a muslim brother this is what I will say.

by the way, as far as dawaa, I don't think it is anymore complicated than by practicing Islam and communicating to people what you beleive and what causes you to be a good person(Fear and Love of Allah swt).

The best answer you will get to any decision you have; would be answered by salat al-istakhara. Allah knows the unseen, and this prayer is our tool to communicate with Allah swt for a decision to obtain what is beneficial direction in future events. The companions, ra, where taught to use and depend on this tool for all their decesionmaking(halal things of course). We should be no different.

:wasalam:
 
:salam2:

I have found a fatwaa about this subject for you. But do consider what I mentioned before.

Fatwas Subjects >

The ruling on keeping a copy of the Torah or the Gospels by a Muslim
Fatwa Subject :
The ruling on keeping a copy of the Torah or the Gospels by a Muslim

Fatwa Number :
29

Publishing Date :
Sunday 4 Muharram 1426 AH, corresponding 13 February 2005 AD.

Fatwas Source :
From the Fatwas Delivered by His Eminence Shaikh Muhammad bin Salih Al-'Uthaimin, Member of the Committee of Grand Scholars

Fatwa Reference :
[Question No. 5, Volume I, Page 32]

Question:
His Eminence Shaikh Muhammad As-Salih Al-'Uthaimin, may Allah shower His Mercy on him, was asked whether it is permissible to own a copy of the gospels in order to know the Divine words revealed to Allah's servant and Messenger Jesus (peace be upon him).

Answer :
It is not permissible to keep any of the books revealed before the Holy Qur'an, including Torah and the Gospels; for two reasons:

The first reason: whatever might be regarded as useful knowledge in these books was mentioned by Allah in the Holy Qur'an.

The second reason: The Holy Qur'an is sufficient for Muslims and is in no way lacking knowledge that might be sought in any other books. Allah the Almighty said:
qrn-l.jpg
It is He Who has sent down the Book (the Qur'ân) to you (Muhammad PBUH) with truth, confirming what came before it
qrn-r.jpg
(3:3) Allah also said:
qrn-l.jpg
And We have sent down to you (O Muhammad PBUH) the Book (this Qur'ân) in truth, confirming the Scripture that came before it and Mohayminan (trustworthy in highness and a witness) over it (old Scriptures)
qrn-r.jpg
(5:48) Thus, the Holy Qur'an is well enough for those who seek useful knowledge in books other than it.

As for the pretext mentioned in the question, which says that he wants to be aware of Allah's Word revealed to His servant and Messenger Jesus, he can find the beneficial part of it already mentioned in the Qur'an; which means the uselessness of searching in books other than the Qur'an. Likewise, the text of the Gospels that are available now has been exposed to corruption on a large scale. The fact that the Gospel now is composed of four contradictory gospels, rather than a single integrated book, is a proof that testifies to that effect. For this reason, it cannot be regarded as a reliable source.

However, scholars and students who are knowledgeable enough and can identify the truth from falsehood may study the gospels, as well as other previously revealed books, to refute wrong statements and establish the proof against the people who believe in them as sacred books.

http://www.qurancomplex.org/qfatwa/display.asp?f=29&l=eng&ps=subFtwa
:wasalam:
 

slaveofAllah88

Slave of Allah (swt)
I respectfully disagree. The Bible is not all lies. It contains lies. The prophet peace be upon him said, "When the children of Israel quote you something [from their scriptures], do not believe them and do not disbelieve them!"

God says in the holy Quran, "Call to the way of your Lord with wisdom and good preaching and argue with them in the most beautiful manner." (16:125). This verse does not specify the Quran as the only way to make the call, preach or argue. The Quran is the best method to do all that, but it doesn't have to be the only one.

:salam2:
thank you for the answer brother Ayman1, that verse of the Quran is one of my favorite ones and i think I agree with you, Allah (swt) wants us to use wisdom to Invite people, and Sheikh Ahmed deedat was very smart in using bible to show them that they are wrong in their belief and then telling them what Quran says and what is the truth, May Allah (swt) bless Sheikh Ahmed Deedat with Jannah firdous - ameen , he was truly a man full of wisdom.
JazakAllah khair for the answer
 

slaveofAllah88

Slave of Allah (swt)
aslam o alikum
JazakAllah khair for everyone elses reply too, Mashallah im very happy to have a better understanding
thank you brothers and sisters for ur wonderful answers
 

abu'muhammad

Junior Member
:salam2: brother shaheer,

mashaAllah brother mhamzah has placed in detail and above 'fatwa' by shaikh rahimahullah is sufficient.

I would just like to add.. To explain the jews and Christians of the religion they can understand religion through their own texts in which they have faith and belief. Effort is made to make them understand the divine religion through their own texts. If someone quotes quran to them, they will not take the point of daawah because they don’t believe in it. As above brother hardrock quoted the ayah and further there are many ayahs in quran that summarizes the fact that ‘ the God of humanity is Allah, unto Him is their return’. the intension of caller to Allah when quoting bible or other text is to show truth , scrutinize truthfulness from falsehood, so that those who take such texts as sacred and pure can understand what divine religion is ! and where they are mistaken. The caller to Allah is not propogating their wrong belief but refuting and clarifying their false claims, beliefs and practices. Theologial beliefs can be clarified and understood through theological sources.so their own sources for dawah could be comprehensive and effective. Like for example linguistic explaination can be done through linguistic sources. another source than their own sources may not be believed, because they may say those are not our scriptures. Bring something from our books and sources.


Further the question is who will show them the truth. Muslims only can show them the right way, correct tawheed , reject their kufr and shirk. and if muslim do not read their religion, understand their theology for purpose of daawah than how can they be called towards Allah.

:wasalam:

 
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