Quran and Abrogation

[Mohsin]

Assalamu-alaikum

:salam2:

I acknowledge that I am a layman as this issue is very serious but I have a question about these three verses of the Quran.

يَسْأَلُونَكَ عَنِ الْخَمْرِ وَالْمَيْسِرِ قُلْ فِيهِمَا إِثْمٌ كَبِيرٌ وَمَنَافِعُ لِلنَّاسِ وَإِثْمُهُمَا أَكْبَرُ مِن نَّفْعِهِمَا وَيَسْأَلُونَكَ مَاذَا يُنفِقُونَ قُلِ الْعَفْوَ كَذَلِكَ يُبيِّنُ اللّهُ لَكُمُ الآيَاتِ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَتَفَكَّرُونَ

219. They ask thee concerning wine and gambling. Say: "In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit." They ask thee how much they are to spend; Say: "What is beyond your needs." Thus doth Allah Make clear to you His Signs: In order that ye may consider-
[Al-Baqarah]

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ لاَ تَقْرَبُواْ الصَّلاَةَ وَأَنتُمْ سُكَارَى حَتَّىَ تَعْلَمُواْ مَا تَقُولُونَ وَلاَ جُنُبًا إِلاَّ عَابِرِي سَبِيلٍ حَتَّىَ تَغْتَسِلُواْ وَإِن كُنتُم مَّرْضَى أَوْ عَلَى سَفَرٍ أَوْ جَاء أَحَدٌ مِّنكُم مِّن الْغَآئِطِ أَوْ لاَمَسْتُمُ النِّسَاء فَلَمْ تَجِدُواْ مَاء فَتَيَمَّمُواْ صَعِيدًا طَيِّبًا فَامْسَحُواْ بِوُجُوهِكُمْ وَأَيْدِيكُمْ إِنَّ اللّهَ كَانَ عَفُوًّا غَفُورًا

43. O ye who believe! Approach not prayers with a mind befogged, until ye can understand all that ye say,- nor in a state of ceremonial impurity (Except when travelling on the road), until after washing your whole body. If ye are ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from offices of nature, or ye have been in contact with women, and ye find no water, then take for yourselves clean sand or earth, and rub therewith your faces and hands. For Allah doth blot out sins and forgive again and again.
[An-Nisa]

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ إِنَّمَا الْخَمْرُ وَالْمَيْسِرُ وَالأَنصَابُ وَالأَزْلاَمُ رِجْسٌ مِّنْ عَمَلِ الشَّيْطَانِ فَاجْتَنِبُوهُ لَعَلَّكُمْ تُفْلِحُونَ

90. O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper.
[Al-Ma'idah]​

 

[Revertee]

As'salaam Alaikum WR WB,

Abrogation ware there in the Qur'an, but we should be very clear in this abrogation. When Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) was there some changes happened to Glorious Qur'an, Bcoz Allah(SWT) has rights to change, add or cancel any thing from his revealation. so made those changes with Prophet Mohammed(PBUH)

Allah Says in Glorious Qur'an Sura Al-Hijr(15) Aayat 9:

No doubt, We have sent down this Quran, and We most surely are its Guardian


As Prophet Mohammed(pbuh) is Last Mesenger of Allah(SWT), when he was there Allah(SWT) made changes with Prophet Mohammed(PBUH)

After Prophet Mohammed(PBUH) no abrogations are there and no changes to Glorious Qur'an. bocz No more messenger is going to come

Allah says in Glorious Quran Sura Al-Ahzad 33 Aayat 40
Mohammed is not the father of any of your men; yes He is the Messenger of Allah and the last one among all the prophets. And Allah knows all things.


So we should very clear that After Prophet Mohammed(pbuh) no add ons or changes to Glorious Qur'an

Coming to Abrogations

There are three types of Abrogations

1.Removed and NOt practiced
EX: To become blood brother or sister the infant should suckle 10 times from her/his mother

It was taken out from Glorious Qur'an and not in practice, it was happend when Prophet Mohammed(PBUH) was there.

now 5 suckling are enough

2.Removed but practice is there

like the punishments ordained for Illegal relations for married and unmarried people.

I will get more information I will update the post brothers and Sisters




3. Recitation is there but not in practice

Ex: if we see Sura Al-Baqarah Aayat 219

They ask you the precept of wine and gambling. Say you, 'in both there is great sin and also some worldly profit for the people but their sin is greater than their profit and ask you what they ought to spend, say you, 'that which is saved after your needs'. Thus, Allah explains to you His Signs so that you may do after reflecting

and Sura An-Nisa(4) Aayat 43

'O believers! Approach not prayer while you are intoxicated, until you have so much sense that what you say, you understand, nor when you are unclean without taking a bath except when you are travelling; and if you are ailing, or on a journey, or any one of you comes from privy, or you have touched women and you do not find water, then take some pure earth and wipe there with your faces and your hands. Undoubtedly, Allah is Pardoning, Forgiving


the above two Aayat are there for recitaion but not for practice, bcoz Allah(SWT) revealed another aayat for practice

that is

Sura Al-Maidah(5) Aayat 90

'O believers! Wine and gambling and idols and divining arrows are only unclean things, a work of devil (Satan) then save yourselves from them, so that you may prosper.

we can recite 2:219, 4: 43 but for practice we have to follow 5:90



So brothers and Sister what we should clear that, After Prophet Mohammad(PBUH) no add ons no abrogations.


Jazak'Allah Khair

 

[P.I.]

Abrogation ware there in the Qur'an, but we should be very clear in this abrogation. When Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) was there some changes happened to Glorious Qur'an, Bcoz Allah(SWT) has rights to change, add or cancel any thing from his revealation. so made those changes with Prophet Mohammed(PBUH)

Thank you, brother.

Do you know of other examples of abrogated verses. There is a list of verses listed in the OP that have already been discussed on the other board. Are there any more?

 

[P.I.]

:salam2:

I acknowledge that I am a layman as this issue is very serious but I have a question about these three verses of the Quran.

يَسْأَلُونَكَ عَنِ الْخَمْرِ وَالْمَيْسِرِ قُلْ فِيهِمَا إِثْمٌ كَبِيرٌ وَمَنَافِعُ لِلنَّاسِ وَإِثْمُهُمَا أَكْبَرُ مِن نَّفْعِهِمَا وَيَسْأَلُونَكَ مَاذَا يُنفِقُونَ قُلِ الْعَفْوَ كَذَلِكَ يُبيِّنُ اللّهُ لَكُمُ الآيَاتِ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَتَفَكَّرُونَ

219. They ask thee concerning wine and gambling. Say: "In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit." They ask thee how much they are to spend; Say: "What is beyond your needs." Thus doth Allah Make clear to you His Signs: In order that ye may consider-
[Al-Baqarah]

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ لاَ تَقْرَبُواْ الصَّلاَةَ وَأَنتُمْ سُكَارَى حَتَّىَ تَعْلَمُواْ مَا تَقُولُونَ وَلاَ جُنُبًا إِلاَّ عَابِرِي سَبِيلٍ حَتَّىَ تَغْتَسِلُواْ وَإِن كُنتُم مَّرْضَى أَوْ عَلَى سَفَرٍ أَوْ جَاء أَحَدٌ مِّنكُم مِّن الْغَآئِطِ أَوْ لاَمَسْتُمُ النِّسَاء فَلَمْ تَجِدُواْ مَاء فَتَيَمَّمُواْ صَعِيدًا طَيِّبًا فَامْسَحُواْ بِوُجُوهِكُمْ وَأَيْدِيكُمْ إِنَّ اللّهَ كَانَ عَفُوًّا غَفُورًا

43. O ye who believe! Approach not prayers with a mind befogged, until ye can understand all that ye say,- nor in a state of ceremonial impurity (Except when travelling on the road), until after washing your whole body. If ye are ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from offices of nature, or ye have been in contact with women, and ye find no water, then take for yourselves clean sand or earth, and rub therewith your faces and hands. For Allah doth blot out sins and forgive again and again.
[An-Nisa]

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ إِنَّمَا الْخَمْرُ وَالْمَيْسِرُ وَالأَنصَابُ وَالأَزْلاَمُ رِجْسٌ مِّنْ عَمَلِ الشَّيْطَانِ فَاجْتَنِبُوهُ لَعَلَّكُمْ تُفْلِحُونَ

90. O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper.
[Al-Ma'idah]​

These verses were discussed on the other oard. Here is what was said:

The case that 2:219 is abrogated is based on that

"O you who have believe, indeed, intoxicants, gambling, stone alters (a sacrificial ritual to idols), and divining arrows (a wagering ritual) are but defilement from the work of Satan, so avoid it that you may be successful." (5:90),

where 'intoxicants' is a translation of khamr which is mainly alcoholic beverages (the linguistic derivation of the word khamr comes from 'messing with the mind'), abrogates

"They ask you about intoxicants and gambling. Say: In them is great sin and [yet, some] benefits for people. But their sin is greater than their benefit..." (part of 2:219),

the idea being that verse 5:90 is describing intoxicants and gambling as pure evil while verse 2:219 is describing them as a mixed bag.

I see absolutely no case for abrogation here. Verse 2:219 is a statement of fact, not a command. Facts cannot be abrogated. The only reason I can see people invoking abrogation here is that they perceive that there is a contradiction between the two statements and they want to resolve it.

There is no contradiction at all. Intoxicants and gambling are indeed a mixed bag. They are great sins in spite of having some benefits. Their sin happens to outweigh their benefit. This type of mixed bag is exactly what Satan flourishes in. He will try to sell us intoxicants and gambling by pushing their benefits, never mind that their great sin outweighs those benefits. It is only befitting that God is warning us in verse 5:90 that intoxicants and gambling are "defilement from the work of Satan." This is a logical complement, not an abrogation.

The case that verse 4:43 was abrogated by verse 5:90 is more interesting. Here is a translation of the verses:

"O you who have believed, do not approach the prayer while you are intoxicated until you know what you are saying..." (part of 4:43)

"O you who have believed, indeed, intoxicants, gambling, stone alters (a sacrificial ritual to idols), and divining arrows (a wagering ritual) are but defilement from the work of Satan, so avoid it that you may be successful." (5:90)

Unlike 2:219 which I argued was not abrogated, verse 4:43 does have a command related to drinking and therefore could in principle be abrogated. Verse 2:219 was only a statement of fact. The basis for the abrogation case of 4:43 is that its command not to approach the prayer while drunk was eliminated by the stronger command in 5:90 not to drink in the first place.

There is no question that drinking was prohibited altogether in 5:90. There is no question that even if you avoid praying while drunk, the drinking itself is not allowed. However, this is not the point. The point is whether there is a contradiction between the two commands "don't pray while drunk" and "don't drink at all" that can only be resolved by eliminating the command "don't pray while drunk" through abrogating 4:43. The answer is that there is no such contradiction. There may be redundancy, but not contradiction. These two commands can be both valid.

It is not just a philosophical point that if you don't drink, then not praying while drunk is a moot point so there is no need to abrogate it. I actually believe that the "don't pray while drunk" command is still applicable until this very day. Here are my reasons. There are Moslems today who drink, right? They may not be good Moslems, but they exist. If someone is drunk at this very moment, can they pray? I know the answer to this question. They can't, because of the ruling in 4:43. If you believe 4:43 is abrogated, how would you answer this specific question?

This is not meant to encourage people to drink. This is not meant to give excuses to those who drink. This is only meant to answer the question: Was verse 4:43 abrogated?

One final point. Drinking is not allowed, and skipping prayers is not allowed. If someone violates the first rule and drinks, this does not give them license to violate the second rule and skip prayers. IMHO, this fact gives the ruling in 4:43 the same weaning benefit that Sands alluded to, which it had at the time the verse was revealed. Those who don't have the willpower to immediately stop drinking altogether, may have enough willpower to at least schedule their drinking with respect to the prayer times. Hopefully, this will get them closer to mustering enough resolve to quit drinking altogether.

That's just my humble opinion. I expect that people may disagree with my reasoning here. If you feel there is a flaw in my argument that verse 4:43 is not abrogated, please point it out.

 

[Al-Kashmiri]

There is also an authentic hadeeth in Al-Adab Al-Mufrad where Ibn `Abbaas mentions that one ayah was abrogated by another. I don't have the `arabic however to check. It is between hadeeths 30-50 of the book I believe. When I find it I'll quote it inshaa' Allaah.

 

[P.I.]

There is also an authentic hadeeth in Al-Adab Al-Mufrad where Ibn `Abbaas mentions that one ayah was abrogated by another. I don't have the `arabic however to check. It is between hadeeths 30-50 of the book I believe. When I find it I'll quote it inshaa' Allaah.

Please do. This will be most helpful.

May God reward you for the knowledge you share.

 

[Al-Kashmiri]

Please do. This will be most helpful.

May God reward you for the knowledge you share.

12. One does not ask forgiveness for his father if he is an idolater

23. Ibn 'Abbas mentioned the words of the Almighty, "When one or both of them reach old age with you, do not say 'Ugh!' to them out of irritation and do not be harsh with them but speak to them with gentleness and generosity. Take them under your wing, out of mercy, with due humility and say: 'Lord, show mercy to them as they did in looking after me when I was small.'" (17:23-24) He said, "This was abrogated in Surat at-Tawba: "It is not right for the Prophet and those who have iman to ask forgiveness for the mushrikun even if they are close relatives after it has become clear to them that they are the Companions of the Blazing Fire." (9:113)"

I understand your point that many cases only fulfill, expound on the meaning of the other verses. But the Sahaabee still used the term naskh to describe this.

 

[Al-Kashmiri]

I understand akhi, which is why i mentioned that it seems to expound the other verse (i.e. specify the exception being the disbelieving parents). But my reason for citing this was just to show the wording of the hadeeth, and naskh is what was mentioned. Anyway, I still haven't been presented with the different views of the notable `Ullemah of past and present on the issue... Can anyone refer me to any such statements?

Jazaak Allaah khayr,

was-salaamu `alaykum.

 

[P.I.]

my reason for citing this was just to show the wording of the hadeeth, and naskh is what was mentioned.

Thank you, brother Al-Kashmiri. Just as a clarification: Was the naskh word a quote from the Prophet (PBUH) in this case, or was it a word that the narrator used to describe his judgment or understanding? Maybe you can post the entire text of the hadeeth as narrated. Thank you.

 

[P.I.]

I made progress in finding out the list of potentially abrogated verses. The following says that there are 21 such verses according to Suyuti and that 5 of them are strong cases according to Shah Waliullah (mansukh means abrogated and nasikh means abrogating).

Shah Waliullah (d. 1759) the great Muslim scholar from India only retained the following 5 out of Suyuti's 21 cases as genuine:

• Mansukh 2:180 -- nasikh 4:11,12.
• Mansukh 2:240 -- nasikh 2:234.
• Mansukh 8:65 -- nasikh 8:62.
• Mansukh 30:50 -- nasikh 33:52.
• Mansukh 58:12 -- nasikh 58:13.

Anyone can comment on the credibility of Suyuti and Shah Waliullah?

 

[Al-Kashmiri]

As-salaamu `alaykum warahmatullaahi wabarakaatuh.

Both of them, rahimahumallaah are great Imams and had vast knowledge.

 

[Al-Kashmiri]

Thank you, brother Al-Kashmiri. Just as a clarification: Was the naskh word a quote from the Prophet (PBUH) in this case, or was it a word that the narrator used to describe his judgment or understanding? Maybe you can post the entire text of the hadeeth as narrated. Thank you.

It was a quote from a companion. You will have to check the `Arabic version to be honest. And I did quote the narration, it was a saying of Ibn `Abbaas.

Like I said earlier, where naksh is mentioned clearly in a text, it seems as if expounding is the intent... In fact, just yesterday I read a book by Al-Haafidh Zayn ud-Deen Ibn Rajab Al-Hanbalee (he was a student of the likes of Ibn Qayyim Al-Jawziyyah and Al-Haafidh Al-`Iraaqee) rahimahullaahu ta`aalaa, who said likewise. That is, he said that many of the salaf used the word Naskh to mean to explain, expound etc. This is in his Tahqeeq Kalimat ul-Ikhlaas.

 

[P.I.]

With all due respect to the scholar, I humbly disagree with all five citations

Thank you, brother Ayman, and sorry for the late reply. I have been quite busy lately, but I will try to look into this as soon as I can inshaallah.

 

[Sabra]

Salaam,

I have to say, I agree with ayman 1. I think the meaning for abrogation can be used in different context.

Example: I referred to the Quran that I have with Arabic script translated into english, and in Ayat 2.106 the translation used is "abrogate or cause to be forgotten". I have referred to the footnotes from the commentator: "What is the meaning here? If we take it in a general sense, it means that Allah's Message from age to age is always the same, but that its form may differ according to the needs and exigencies of the time. That form was different as given to Moses and then to Jesus and then to Muhammed. Some commentators apply it also to the Ayat of the Quran. There is nothing derogatory in this if we believe in progressive revelation.In 3.7: We are told distinctly about the Quran, that some of its verses are clear (and of established meanings), and others are not entirely clear, and it is mischievous to treat the verses that are not entirely clear and to follow them (literally). On the other hand, it is absurd to treat such a verse as 2.115 as if it were abrogated by 2.144 about the Qibla."

"There may be express abrogation, or there may be "causing or permitting to forget." This does not mean that eternal principles change. It is only a sign of Allah's infinite Power that His creation should take so many forms and shapes not only in the material world but in the world of man's thought and expression."

I have been following this thread and have gained a vast amount of knowledge. Thank You to everyone involved.

Salaam :blackhijab: