Saudi Arabia & witchcraft

[Al-Indunisiy]

:salam2:

I was just browsing through the Internet and found this:

Saudi Arabia: Witchcraft and Sorcery Cases on the Rise
Cancel Death Sentences for “Witchcraft”

November 24, 2009
Other Material: Precarious Justice

Letter to HRH King Abdullah bin Abd al-’Aziz Al Saud on "Witchcraft" Case."Saudi courts are sanctioning a literal witch hunt by the religious police...The crime of ‘witchcraft' is being used against all sorts of behavior, with the cruel threat of state-sanctioned executions."
.Sarah Leah Whitson, Middle East director .

(Kuwait City) - The cassation court in Mecca should overturn the death sentence imposed on Ali Sabat by a lower court in Medina on November 9 for practicing witchcraft, Human Rights Watch said today. Human Rights Watch called on the Saudi government to cease its increasing use of charges of "witchcraft" which remains vaguely defined and arbitrarily used.

Ali Sabat's death sentence apparently resulted from advice and predictions he gave on Lebanese television. According to Saudi media, in addition to Sabat, Saudi religious police have arrested at least two others for witchcraft in the past month alone.

"Saudi courts are sanctioning a literal witch hunt by the religious police," said Sarah Leah Whitson, Middle East director at Human Rights Watch. "The crime of ‘witchcraft' is being used against all sorts of behavior, with the cruel threat of state-sanctioned executions."

Religious police arrested Ali Sabat in his hotel room in Medina on May 7, 2008, where he was on pilgrimage before returning to his native Lebanon. Before his arrest, Sabat frequently gave advice on general life questions and predictions about the future on the Lebanese satellite television station Sheherazade, according to the Lebanese newspaper Al-Akhbar and the French newspaper Le Monde. These appearances are said to be the only evidence against Sabat.

Saudi newspaper Al-Madina reported on November 15 that a lower court in Jeddah started the trial of a Saudi man arrested by the religious police and said to have smuggled a book of witchcraft into the kingdom. On October 19, Saudi newspaper Okaz reported that the religious police in Ta'if had arrested for "sorcery" and "charlatanry" an Asian man who was accused of using supernatural powers to solve marital disputes and induce falling in love.

In March 2008, Human Rights Watch asked a high-ranking official in the Ministry of Justice to clarify the definition of the crime of witchcraft in Saudi Arabia and the evidence necessary for a court to prove such a crime. The official confirmed that no legal definition exists and could not clarify what evidence has probative value in witchcraft trials. Saudi Arabia has no penal code and in almost all cases gives judges the discretion to define acts they deem criminal and to set attendant punishments.

In February 2008, Human Rights Watch protested the 2006 "discretionary" conviction and sentencing to death for witchcraft of Fawza Falih, a Saudi citizen. Minister of Justice Abdullah Al al-Shaikh responded that Human Rights Watch had a preconceived Western notion of shari'a, but did not answer the organization's questions about Falih's arbitrary arrest, coerced confession, unfair trial, and wrongful conviction. She remains on death row in Quraiyat prison, close to the border with Jordan, and is reportedly in bad health.

November 10, Okaz reported that the Medina court had also issued the verdict for Sabat on a "discretionary" basis. Both Sabat and the Saudi man accused of smuggling books of witchcraft reportedly confessed to their "crimes." Sabat had no lawyer at trial and only confessed because interrogators told him he could go home to Lebanon if he did, according to May al-Khansa, his lawyer in Lebanon.

In another case, a Jeddah criminal court on October 8, 2006 convicted Eritrean national Muhammad Burhan for "charlatanry," based on a leather-bound personal phone booklet belonging to Burhan with writings in the Tigrinya alphabet used in Eritrea. Prosecutors classified the booklet as a "talisman" and the court accepted that as evidence, sentencing him to 20 months in prison and 300 lashes. No further evidence for the charge was introduced at trial. Burhan has since been deported, after serving more than double the time in prison to which the court had sentenced him.

On November 2, 2007, Saudi Arabia executed Mustafa Ibrahim for sorcery in Riyadh. Ibrahim, an Egyptian working as a pharmacist in the northern town of `Ar'ar, was found guilty of having tried "through sorcery" to separate a married couple, according to a Ministry of Interior statement.

"Saudi judges have harshly punished confessed "witches" for what at worst appears to be fraud, but may well be harmless acts," Whitson said. "Saudi judges should not have the power to end lives of persons at all, let alone those who have not physically harmed others."

In 2007, Saudi Arabia passed two laws restructuring judicial institutions, and in 2009 began implementing what it said was a comprehensive judicial reform under Minister of Justice Muhammad al-‘Isa, who was appointed in February 2009. However, Saudi Arabia has still not codified its criminal laws, and efforts to update the criminal procedure law, which lacks guarantees against forced confessions such as the right not to incriminate oneself, have not yet come to fruition.

Human Rights Watch opposes the use of the death penalty in all circumstances, due to its inherently cruel nature. International standards, for example as expressed in resolution 1984/50 of the UN Economic and Social Council, require all states that retain the death penalty to limit its imposition to the "most serious" crimes.

Saudi judges should overturn witchcraft convictions and free those arrested or convicted for witchcraft-related crimes, Human Rights Watch said. King Abdullah should urgently order the codification of Saudi criminal laws and ensure it comports with international human rights standards.

My concern is: Do the Saudi authority use the charge of 'witchcraft' arbitrarily? Can someone from KSA enlighten me on this. How could one be convicted of practicing witchcraft?

 

[ahmed_indian]

:salam2:

I was just browsing through the Internet and found this:


My concern is: Do the Saudi authority use the charge of 'witchcraft' arbitrarily? Can someone from KSA enlighten me on this. How could one be convicted of practicing witchcraft?

,

if the authority raid his/her home and finds dolls with needles inserted into it, unknown signs, unusual written words, or someone informs about it, that person can be convicted of witchcraft.

 

[Al-Indunisiy]

I also found this while browsing. It's a letter from the Human Rights Watch to King Abdullah on the case of Fawza Falih. The parts which I underlined are what I consider as bearing tangent to my OP question.

Letter to HRH King Abdullah bin Abd al-’Aziz Al Saud on "Witchcraft" Case
February 13, 2008

HRH King Abdullah bin Abd al-’Aziz Al Saud
Royal Court
Riyadh 11111
Saudi Arabia

Your Royal Highness,

Human Rights Watch urges you to immediately halt the execution of Fawza Falih Muhammad Ali, currently imprisoned in Quraiyat Prison. Fawza Falih has exhausted her appeals and her relatives in Jordan believe the papers are currently in your office awaiting your approval of the execution.


The court in Quraiyat, on April 2, 2006 (3/3/1427), sentenced her to death by beheading for the alleged crimes of ““witchcraft, recourse to jinn [supernatural beings], and slaughter” of animals.

Your Highness, the conviction of Fawza Falih for “witchcraft” is a travesty of justice and reveals severe shortcomings in Saudi Arabia’s justice system. The crime of “witchcraft” is not defined by law; judges breached safeguards for a fair trial in existing Saudi law; and there were significant procedural flaws throughout the trial which effectively eradicated her ability to defend herself against the ill-defined charges against her.
We remain convinced that Fawza Falih has not committed any crime at all. First, it is not clear what the actual elements if any of the crime of “witchcraft” are, and the offence is not defined in Saudi law. As you know, Saudi Arabia does not have a written penal code that spells out the elements of a given crime. The accusation of witchcraft appears to have been based upon a broad, vague concept, which cannot be said to constitute “law”. Under international human rights law, persons suspected of crimes may only be charged with offenses as established by law, and which are sufficiently clear so that everyone has the possibility to understand clearly what behavior it is that will cause them to violate that law.

Furthermore, in addition to the lack of a clear definition of “witchcraft” in Saudi law and the absence of a written penal code in which to search for such a definition, the judges in the court of Quraiyat did not define the meaning of “witchcraft”, but instead cited a variety of alleged actions, stated intentions, and “tools” for “witchcraft” in a weak attempt to suggest that “witchcraft” had indeed taken place. The court cited one instance in which a man allegedly became impotent after being “bewitched.” In another, a divorced woman reportedly returned to her ex-husband during the month predicted by the witch said to have cast the spell. The court failed to probe alternative explanations for these developments which appear to be ordinary phenomena. Indeed drawing on the illustrations cited by the courts, it is evident that the practice of “witchcraft”, if it exists, is by its nature impossible to prove, since it involves the alleged use of supernatural powers.
The court record itself reveals significant doubt about the truth of the “witchcraft” accusations, which are substantiated solely on the basis of statements by persons who believed they had been “bewitched,” and by “strange” objects reportedly found in the house of the accused and on a tree.

Court Verdict number 125/2 of October 10, 2006 (17/9/1427) states that Fawza Falih confessed that “I take 1,500 Riyal for each act of which I send half to the magician Abu Tal’a [who allegedly taught her “witchcraft”] according to the agreement, for Abu Tal’a said to me, ‘If you do not bring the money, by God, you will become possessed by jinn like dogs.” If any “strange” acts did indeed take place, they seem to have been the result of a money-making scam. Those who lost money have not sued to have their money returned. Fawza Falih’s alleged actions did not result in any complaints of injury or damage suffered by any party.

In addition, there were numerous procedural and legal errors throughout the course of this trial. Judges of the court appear to have both disregarded established laws and made up new law as the trial proceeded. Their first verdict sentenced Fawza Falih to death for “witchcraft” as an “offense against God” (hadd) with a prescribed punishment of death. The legal basis for this decision includes the statement that witches “are not given the opportunity to repent, because witchcraft is not eradicable by penitence.”

Following remarks on the case by the Court of Appeals of September 1, 2006 (19/12/1427) that two of the accused were sentenced to death “despite having retracted their confessions,” and that consequently “doubt shields from hadd punishments,” the judges in Quraiyat, in a new verdict of June 6, 2007 (25/5/1428), sentenced Fawza Falih to death on a “discretionary” basis, in the name of “public interest” and to “preserve the creed and the souls and property of this country.”

Aside from the spurious nature of the charges against her, during the trial, Fawza Falih attended only the first and the last of at least six sessions. Article 140 of the LCP states that, “in major crimes, the accused shall personally appear before the court.” In the first session, only one judge was present and questioned her. Article 129 of the LCP specifies that a panel of three judges must sit in cases involving death sentences, and Article 7 halts proceedings until the judges have reached the prescribed number. Furthermore, the accused was unable to challenge any of the witnesses against her: the witnesses did not testify in court, but gave written statements, and the judge kept her in the waiting room during sessions when evidence was presented. Article 163 of the LCP states that “Each of the parties may cross-examine the witnesses called by the other party and discuss its evidence.” Fawza Falih in her appeal claims not to even know some of the witnesses who claim have seen her perform acts of “witchcraft”. The denial of her legal right to cross-examine witnesses in court seriously impaired her efforts to defend herself against the charges.

The judge also prevented her son, who was acting as her officially certified legal representative, from attending any of the court sessions, violating Article 4 of the LCP which gives “Any accused person … the right to seek the assistance of a lawyer or a representative to defend him during the investigation and trial stages.” Article 140 states that the obligation to appear in person in major crimes cannot be used as a justification to exclude legal representatives from the proceedings.

Other aspects of the arrest, treatment and trial of Fawza Falih are also deeply worrying. Fawza Falih spent 35 days in detention at the Commission for the Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice (CPVPV) after her arrest on May 4, 2005 (25/3/1426). Her detention there violated a 1981 royal decree prohibiting the CPVPV from holding and interrogating suspects at their centers. She asserted in her appeal that she was beaten during her interrogation, naming one official of the governorate. Her appeal states that she lost consciousness during one beating and was treated at the hospital. She asserts that fellow female prisoners bandaged her wounds. Human Rights Watch spoke to a relative who was allowed to visit her for the first time after about 20 days in CPVPV detention, following her hospital treatment, and saw marks from beatings on her back. There would thus have been ample evidence to indicate that her confession was coerced.

The interrogators and the judges violated Fawza Falih’s rights to due process and a fair trial in other ways as well. Her family hired lawyer Abdullah al-Suhaimi, but the head of the interrogation committee refused him access to her when he asked to see her within a few days of her arrest. Article 64 of the Law of Criminal Procedure (LCP) specifies that “During the investigation, the accused shall have the right to seek the assistance of a representative or an attorney,” and Article 70 states that “The Investigator shall not, during the investigation, separate the accused from his accompanying representative or attorney.” Furthermore, Fawza Falih, who is illiterate, claims that her confession was not read to her, but that she was nonetheless forced to fingerprint it as a mark of authentication.

Your Highness, Human Rights Watch is deeply troubled by the miscarriage of justice that has occurred in the case of Fawza Falih. We urge you to halt immediately all proceedings for her execution, to void her sentence, and to instruct officials to preserve the facts of the case so that the prosecution may initiate proceedings against the members of the CPVPV and the governorate who wrongfully arrested and mistreated Fawza Falih and so that the inspector of the judiciary is able to initiate disciplinary proceedings against the judges who violated her rights under Saudi and international law.

Sincerely,

/s/

Christoph Wilcke
Researcher
Human Rights Watch

 

[BrotherInIslam7]

:salam2:

I have posted a video series on 'Sihr' which has been published by the Ministry of Religious Affairs in Saudi Arabia. It has all the details of their works, evidences and cure for this evil practise.

Here it is :- http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=68329

Wasalaamalaykum waa rahmatullahi

 

[Fatima S.Ar]

Sentencing to death is the best solution for this , Islam stated that .
If they don't want this puinishment so why they come her and behave like this ?
They came to our land so they should respect the law of it . About your question , we have Haye'a ( A religious system ) they watch them when when they have the proof they catch them . Perhaps this puineshment seems strict but first it's from Allah , second this is the best solution as I said before .

 

[ShahnazZ]

What I think is absolutely ridiculous is that in addition to the West's BLATANT feelings of ethnocentric superiority over others, it lacks the necessary respect and understanding of other religions and cultures based on CHOICE. If they don't believe it and don't adhere by a certain ruling or way of life, then those that do are automatically considered "backwards" and "barbaric".

"Saudi judges have harshly punished confessed "witches" for what at worst appears to be fraud, but may well be harmless acts," Whitson said. "Saudi judges should not have the power to end lives of persons at all, let alone those who have not physically harmed others."

I don't even know where to begin on this one. "Physical harm". These are people who lack the proper undertanding of Islam and do not believe that an actual human being is not the only type of entity that can cause physical harm to another individual. Islam acknowledges the existence of jinn, it acknowledges the existence of black magic. Shariah has its rulings for practitioners of black magic and Shariah is Allah's Law. So basically, these people are against Allah's Law and consider it backwards to follow it to a T. Their lack of understanding prevents them from seeing this as lawful simply because this isn't the "normal" thing to do and clearly all norms are defined by the West.

Saudi judges should overturn witchcraft convictions and free those arrested or convicted for witchcraft-related crimes, Human Rights Watch said. King Abdullah should urgently order the codification of Saudi criminal laws and ensure it comports with international human rights standards.

Oh give me a break already. Seriously this is just ridiculous. Get off your high horses and understand that the world is not limited to just YOU and those like you. The argument isn't for whether or not these very individuals should be executed. Allah Alone is the Supreme Judge. But if an individual HAS been proven to be a practitioner of black magic then the ruler needs to carry out the sentence as prescribed by Shariah law. What exactly is the basis for the Human Rights Watch? This is a man-made group that is imposing its own views on human rights on others, irrespective of the fact that not everyone holds the same views. We believe that only Allah knows the best views on His Creation because, well hey, HE CREATED THEM. They don't have to believe it but they can sure as heck need to learn to respect it and focus their energy on matters that DO require more basic human rights such as the violations of human rights being carried out on Guantanamo Bay. Or is that automatically excused because it's Western based?

 

[AliLasVegas]

Sister, I understand your frustration. However, there are good, sunnah following Muslims & converts such as myself in the "west" and believe you me it is not easy to be Muslim in the US and be a caucasian, blue eyed, veteran....convert to Islam. Alhamdulilah--Allah guided me so I am here and I will die a Muslim inshallah!
(Americans are generally good--the Gov. is the one that does some evil things).
Jezakallhu Kair

 

[ShahnazZ]

This thread is over a year old. We generally try not to revive super old threads.

Irresepective, welcome to TTI.

Sister, I understand your frustration. However, there are good, sunnah following Muslims & converts such as myself in the "west" and believe you me it is not easy to be Muslim in the US and be a caucasian, blue eyed, veteran....convert to Islam. Alhamdulilah--Allah guided me so I am here and I will die a Muslim inshallah!
(Americans are generally good--the Gov. is the one that does some evil things).
Jezakallhu Kair

Yes, I would know.

I'm one of them after all .

I was born into a Muslim family but still born and raised in the US.

 

[septithol]

Shahnazz

Shahnazz: Let me ask you a question. Suppose you are a servant or nanny for the child of a prince in Saudi Arabia. You and the child are in a very tall building, and you must take the child in an elevator, down to the lobby.

You have a choice of two elevators.

Elevator 1 is made by a Western engineer, using western means of proof, which you claim are no better than any others. It is supported by a 3 inch thick steel cable. The engineer who built it has used Western means to show why this elevator will not fall, including mathematical equations, and demonstrations of identical elevators, with identical cables, operating safely while lifting heavy iron weights.

Elevator 2 was made by a Mullah. It is supported by a thin hemp rope. The Mullah promises you that the elevator is being carrier by Jinn, so even if the rope breaks, it will not fall.

According to you, the belief in Jinn is just as valid as the Western belief in physical and mathematical proof, and it would surely be very pleasing to the prince for you to comply with Islamic beliefs.

However, bear in mind, that if the elevator you choose falls, not only will you and the son of the prince be killed, but the prince will have your entire family tortured to death as punishment.

Now, which elevator do you choose?

What I think is absolutely ridiculous is that in addition to the West's BLATANT feelings of ethnocentric superiority over others, it lacks the necessary respect and understanding of other religions and cultures based on CHOICE. If they don't believe it and don't adhere by a certain ruling or way of life, then those that do are automatically considered "backwards" and "barbaric".

"Saudi judges have harshly punished confessed "witches" for what at worst appears to be fraud, but may well be harmless acts," Whitson said. "Saudi judges should not have the power to end lives of persons at all, let alone those who have not physically harmed others."

I don't even know where to begin on this one. "Physical harm". These are people who lack the proper undertanding of Islam and do not believe that an actual human being is not the only type of entity that can cause physical harm to another individual. Islam acknowledges the existence of jinn, it acknowledges the existence of black magic. Shariah has its rulings for practitioners of black magic and Shariah is Allah's Law. So basically, these people are against Allah's Law and consider it backwards to follow it to a T. Their lack of understanding prevents them from seeing this as lawful simply because this isn't the "normal" thing to do and clearly all norms are defined by the West.

Saudi judges should overturn witchcraft convictions and free those arrested or convicted for witchcraft-related crimes, Human Rights Watch said. King Abdullah should urgently order the codification of Saudi criminal laws and ensure it comports with international human rights standards.

Oh give me a break already. Seriously this is just ridiculous. Get off your high horses and understand that the world is not limited to just YOU and those like you. The argument isn't for whether or not these very individuals should be executed. Allah Alone is the Supreme Judge. But if an individual HAS been proven to be a practitioner of black magic then the ruler needs to carry out the sentence as prescribed by Shariah law. What exactly is the basis for the Human Rights Watch? This is a man-made group that is imposing its own views on human rights on others, irrespective of the fact that not everyone holds the same views. We believe that only Allah knows the best views on His Creation because, well hey, HE CREATED THEM. They don't have to believe it but they can sure as heck need to learn to respect it and focus their energy on matters that DO require more basic human rights such as the violations of human rights being carried out on Guantanamo Bay. Or is that automatically excused because it's Western based?

 

[strive-may-i]

....Let me ask you a question. Suppose you are a servant or nanny for the child of a prince in Saudi Arabia. You and the child are in a very tall building, and you must take the child in an elevator, down to the lobby.

You have a choice of two elevators.

Elevator 1 is made by a Western engineer........

Elevator 2 was made by a Mullah. rope held by Jinn ........

PHEW!!!
The supposed scenario, the Elevator 2 ....

According to you, the belief in Jinn is just as valid as the Western belief in physical and mathematical proof, and it would surely be very pleasing to the prince for you to comply with Islamic beliefs.

However, bear in mind, that if the elevator you choose falls, not only will you and the son of the prince be killed, but the prince will have your entire family tortured to death as punishment.

Now, which elevator do you choose?

And the question, ill-conceptualized, since the response is ununderstood...

 

[septithol]

PHEW!!!
The supposed scenario, the Elevator 2 ....


And the question, ill-conceptualized, since the response is ununderstood...

Strive, you have NOT answered the question. Which elevator do you get in?

If and only if the people in that court room would get into elevator #2, before passing judgement on that woman, then I will grant them respect for their beliefs in the Jinn. I would consider them to be mistaken, but they are HONESTLY mistaken. (I also don't think they would survive their mistake, but that's a seperate point).

If they refuse to get into elevator #2, which has had spells cast on it to supposedly make it carried by Jinn, and prefer elevator #1, they have no right to make a judgement of 'black magic' in the court room. A court room is a very important place, you are possibly judging whether someone will live or die. That being the case, you have no right to judge them by ANY system except that system which you believe in strongly enough to stake your own life, and the lives of your family, on it.

I would get into elevator #1, every time. I would never set foot in elevator #2. That being the case, if I were in court, I would not have the right to pass any judgement based on my particular religious beliefs, however strongly I might believe in them. The only system I have a right to judge others by is that which I believe in STRONGLY enough to trust with my own life, and that of my family, which in my case, is that of physical and mathematical proof.

Those who want to pass judgement by Sharia law, but who ALSO refuse to get into elevator #2, that which is held by a very thin hemp rope, but had spells cast on it to make Jinn carry it, and insist on elevator #1, that which has been proven by western methods, are hypocrites, who want one system when it comes to their own precious skins, but a different system when it comes to being able to kill people they merely happen to dislike. Such people are liars, and murderers in their hearts. I have a certain amount of respect for those who are honestly mistaken, and who would actually get into elevator #2. I have no respect for hypocrites who choose elevator #1 for themselves, but then turn around and condemn a woman to death for 'black magic'.

 

[sclavus]

Sister, I understand your frustration. However, there are good, sunnah following Muslims & converts such as myself in the "west" and believe you me it is not easy to be Muslim in the US and be a caucasian, blue eyed, veteran....convert to Islam. Alhamdulilah--Allah guided me so I am here and I will die a Muslim inshallah!
(Americans are generally good--the Gov. is the one that does some evil things).
Jezakallhu Kair

Well said. May the Almighty give you strength to hold on His rope.

 

[ShahnazZ]

Let's see:

Shahnazz: Let me ask you a question. Suppose you are a servant or nanny for the child of a prince in Saudi Arabia. You and the child are in a very tall building, and you must take the child in an elevator, down to the lobby.

You have a choice of two elevators.

Elevator 1 is made by a Western engineer, using western means of proof, which you claim are no better than any others. It is supported by a 3 inch thick steel cable. The engineer who built it has used Western means to show why this elevator will not fall, including mathematical equations, and demonstrations of identical elevators, with identical cables, operating safely while lifting heavy iron weights.

Elevator 2 was made by a Mullah. It is supported by a thin hemp rope. The Mullah promises you that the elevator is being carrier by Jinn, so even if the rope breaks, it will not fall.

According to you, the belief in Jinn is just as valid as the Western belief in physical and mathematical proof, and it would surely be very pleasing to the prince for you to comply with Islamic beliefs.

However, bear in mind, that if the elevator you choose falls, not only will you and the son of the prince be killed, but the prince will have your entire family tortured to death as punishment.

Now, which elevator do you choose?

The one you clearly did not bother to conjure up.

I'm sorry but this is an extremely laughable comparison. And I assure you I'm dead serious. So Elevator 1 is made "by a Western engineer using Western means of proof". "It is supported by a 3 inch thick steel cable." The engineer is oh so brilliant and clearly has conducted a PowerPoint presentation on why this is the elevator to end all elevators. Bravo West.

And Elevator 2 is made by a "Mullah", employed by jinn. A pimple compared to the Mighty Elevator of the West.

The end.

I'm sure you were just itching to add a camel and sand dunes in there somewhere.

You just proved my initial point.

Let me ask YOU a question, Septithol.

Can you PLEASE come up with a better scenario minus the ethnocentrism? It's blatantly obvious and your argument is more supportive of MY stance rather than yours.

This one does not warrant an actual response.

 

[ShahnazZ]

If and only if the people in that court room would get into elevator #2, before passing judgement on that woman, then I will grant them respect for their beliefs in the Jinn. I would consider them to be mistaken, but they are HONESTLY mistaken. (I also don't think they would survive their mistake, but that's a seperate point).

Pardon the confusion but what makes you think we need your respect to uphold our beliefs?

If they refuse to get into elevator #2, which has had spells cast on it to supposedly make it carried by Jinn, and prefer elevator #1, they have no right to make a judgement of 'black magic' in the court room. A court room is a very important place, you are possibly judging whether someone will live or die. That being the case, you have no right to judge them by ANY system except that system which you believe in strongly enough to stake your own life, and the lives of your family, on it.

Clearly you know nothing about Islam. And I said Islam. Not Muslims. Be careful when attempting to make that distinction.

No self-respecting Muslim would get into that second elevator anyway. That doesn't mean they'd get in the first. But definitely not the second.

And it's safe to say that all of us would stake our lives and those of whom we love on Islam, so please cease with the patronizing.

Those who want to pass judgement by Sharia law, but who ALSO refuse to get into elevator #2, that which is held by a very thin hemp rope, but had spells cast on it to make Jinn carry it, and insist on elevator #1, that which has been proven by western methods, are hypocrites, who want one system when it comes to their own precious skins, but a different system when it comes to being able to kill people they merely happen to dislike. Such people are liars, and murderers in their hearts. I have a certain amount of respect for those who are honestly mistaken, and who would actually get into elevator #2. I have no respect for hypocrites who choose elevator #1 for themselves, but then turn around and condemn a woman to death for 'black magic'.

Again (and I can't believe I'm entertaining this ridiculous notion), Elevator 2 isn't conforming to anyone's standards, neither Muslim nor non Muslim. Which again shows that you come from a place of sheer ignorance and zero intellect. I won't bother to spell it out for you as you clearly are not here to learn. And trust me, arguing won't get you anywhere.

How dare you call ANYONE a hypocrite when your example lacks the very clarity you claim to have? The system you stated isn't in accordance with any religion. It simply shows you have no knowledge of the very system you're fighting against.

Your posts warrant zero discussion and as a result, equate to just that.

Null and void.

You want to challenge the ideas of Muslims on this forum? Kindly come up with a better argument with actual validity based on THE TRUTH.

Your own personal creative writing is just a sheer disservice to yourself.

 

[septithol]

Shahnazz

Shahnazz: Okay, I'll bite.

Can you offer me any proof of the existence of these 'Jinn' at all?

Can you show me a single photograph of one? A hair, bone, or drop of blood from one? A footprint? A videotape of one moving an object, with no other explanation, like wires? Something more subtle perhaps? A change in temperature or the amount of humidity or static electricity in the atmosphere?

You claim these Jinn can cause illness. Can you show me laboratory rats (immune to autosuggestion unlike people) becoming ill after being cursed by a Jinn?

Do you have different proof you can explain to me, other than merely a 'belief' or 'acknowledgement' of their existence?

Otherwise, this 'belief' in something with no proof at all, even if it does exist, is nothing more than a blank check to kill people you merely dislike. Without means of proof, you cannot actually prove a person guilty, and more importantly, it is also impossible for the accused to prove themselves innocent.

 

[ShahnazZ]

So this took awhile because I had to sit down and give it the time and consideration it deserved. I still don't think I did it justice, based on lack of time but the information is all there.

If an individual makes the time and effort to go over it that is.

Shahnazz: Okay, I'll bite.

Can you offer me any proof of the existence of these 'Jinn' at all?

Can you show me a single photograph of one? A hair, bone, or drop of blood from one? A footprint? A videotape of one moving an object, with no other explanation, like wires? Something more subtle perhaps? A change in temperature or the amount of humidity or static electricity in the atmosphere?

The existence of these beings is acknowledged in the Holy Quran and if you don't believe in that, then there's no point in even discussing this as that is the main source of knowledge for all Muslims. Your point would then go from "Jinn are not real" to "The Quran is not real." And that's a completely different discussion entirely.

If you're talking about physical evidence to support the fact that jinn exist, you would be hard-placed to find any. Do you even know what jinn are? If you did, you would realize that they lack alot of the animalistic qualities you mentioned above (i.e. hair, blood, footprints).

Based on the Quran, God states the following:

“And the jinn, We created aforetime from the smokeless flame of fire.” [al-Hijr 15:27]

You can't exactly contain smoke now can you?

Also, I can't exactly show you a photograph of one because that would qualify as seeing them and humans can't see jinn. The word "jinn" itself comes from the Arabic root "janna" which means 'to conceal'. The jinn's true forms are concealed from mankind and so we can't see them walking and talking like we see each other.

However, one point to note is that although you can't see them in their true forms, it has been proven that they are capable of taking on other forms, such as those of humans and animals. This fact has been verified by the Prophet Muhammad , someone else you would be akin to believe in before believing in what he stated. Again, if you don't believe in him, then your train of though is heading elsewhere entirely.

More information on seeing jinn from Islamic sources can be found here: http://islam-qa.com/en/ref/40703/Jinn.

A basic point to note is that the jinn are the only other species that God created with accountability. This means that they too will be held responsible for their deeds and questioned about them on the Day of Judgment and will also be granted Heaven or Hell like mankind.

Just like Muslims believe Adam is the father of mankind, we also believe that Iblis (Satan) is the father of the jinn. They are of him and he is of them. They inherited their physical characteristics from him. This ties into the Islamic concept of evil and belief in Satan as his existence is affirmed in the Holy Quran.

More information regarding their existence from Islamic sources can be found here: http://islam-qa.com/en/ref/2340/Jinn

We've covered finding physical remains of them. You then speak of capturing them on camera and types of subtle changes. Again, capturing them on camera would require seeing them and they're pretty much out of humanity's visual range of focus. That being said, individuals all over the world have managed to capture "strange sightings" at times and call them a variety of names, some of which are "ghosts, spirits, demons, etc." These would definitely be remnant of the jinn somehow as in Islam, we do not believe in the aforementioned terms, except that it is a jinn causing mischief. Regarding changes in temperature and humidity, there are those who go "hunting" for ghosts and will bring along equipment that will detect the very changes you speak of. They sometimes do discover the changes in environment and temperature that you mentioned and attribute them to the presence of ghosts.

Again, not ghosts, but jinn.

Also to mention, if you've ever observed "demon possession", this would also be the work of jinn. The fact that jinn can enter human bodies has been proven in the Quran and Sunnah as well as observed in real life and various occurrences of "demon" possession have been documented.

More information regarding the Islamic beliefs in possession can be found here:

http://islam-qa.com/en/ref/1819/Jinn

You claim these Jinn can cause illness. Can you show me laboratory rats (immune to autosuggestion unlike people) becoming ill after being cursed by a Jinn?

I claimed no such thing. If you believe I did, kindly provide a quote.

Regarding lab rats being tested for the "curse" of jinn, that's preposterous. That suggests that jinn are experimental variables that can be used in control and experimental groups, quantified and measured, something completely farfetched.

This isn't some contagion virus found in the depths of the Amazon, available for visual scrutiny under a microscope. It's an entirely independent species of beings, who would most likely not appreciate being used as experimental guinea pigs. Nor would they volunteer as such.

Do you have different proof you can explain to me, other than merely a 'belief' or 'acknowledgement' of their existence?

Like I said, the basis for their existence comes from the Quran and Hadith. If you're intent on disbelieving in them, then there's nothing one can really say to dissuade you.

Otherwise, this 'belief' in something with no proof at all, even if it does exist, is nothing more than a blank check to kill people you merely dislike. Without means of proof, you cannot actually prove a person guilty, and more importantly, it is also impossible for the accused to prove themselves innocent.

Laughable. Really and truly.

If people insist on wearing blinders and sticking their heads in the sand, that's their problem. No one else's.

I could present you with all the proof in the world and if you're intent on hating a governing system or Shariah itself, you wouldn't be able to see any of it.

Shariah has a means of proof. It's called the Quran and Hadith. Evidence to support both have been found in reality. I've mentioned instances of them. And any argument you present me with would be countered by evidences from Islamic sources.

So I repeat yet again: Without belief in the Quran, Hadith and Prophet Muhammad , this argument is pointless. And if you question our beliefs, then believe that we have faith in what we believe to be the True Word of God. That is what these systems govern on and that is what non-Believers don't understand.

And frankly, half the time, they don't even want to.

Questioning why we can't perceive certain things will ultimately lead you to ask the question of how God can even exist because we can't physically perceive Him. If that's the case, you are on a COMPLETELY different tangent, my friend, and there is zero point in having this discussion.

 

[Aapa]

Assalaam walaikum,

Sister Shahnaz this is for you..please stop grinning.


Septithol: I will play along with you. I will take the elevator with the blessings of Allah. I will recite the Quran and remember how Allah blessed Suleiman.

I would not ride elevator one. Unless Muslim hands touched the work I would be scared. If it was not for Muslim hands the works of the ancient mathematicians would not have been translated and applied. The elevator would not have been built in the first place. Where do you get off with this Western notion. Muslims have lived in the west forever. Islam is not limited geographically. I will behave.

You see I would make dua while riding the elevator two and we all know Allah answers the prayers of Believers.

 

[ShahnazZ]

Sister Shahnaz this is for you..please stop grinning.

I don't get it.

 

[Aapa]

Salaam,

I thought you understood how I can be anti-Jinn etc. I thought you would get a kick out of me even willing to contemplate riding an elevator pulled by a jinn.

I tend to stay away from jinn stuff. I am more in the philosophical end of the spectrum.

And I catch myself writing about the possibility of riding an elevator not pulled by pulleys and levers but a jinn.

I just thought that would make you smile.

 

[ShahnazZ]

I just thought that would make you smile.

:salam2:,

And now it has

JazakAllah khair