Saudi cleric says building snowmen 'anti-Islamic'

[sister herb]

Thanks for correction. I didn´t know that I could go to ski to Saudi Arabia.

 

[a_stranger]

It is very sad that many Muslim men and women don't have taqwa in Saudi Arabia or outside . Many of Muslims including myself pray sometimes without the correct feeling that we are facing Allah subhanahu wa taaala and Allah knows what is in our heart that is why our prayer are just motion without love , hope fear of Allah .......this what makes society full of illness and lusts.

 

[zaman-gm]

Salam,
Ma Sha ALLAH, i think this discussion keep going nicely. We are learning with our sharing.

Dear Brother Zaman,

in your comments you said as follows:
*****" Any way i just accept that cleric statement. .....
....I should give priority what Allah swt and his Massanger saw say."*****

That's why I'm asking you - did Allah SWT and His messenger prohibit snowmen? Or, did the cleric prohibit the snowmen? If you follow the cleric without following Allah, then it is similar to shirk.....

This is not something to talk with word to word, sentence to sentence. There is something we have to understand with our knowledge & thinking. Dear sister every aware Muslim knows that no one can follow anyone without following Allah, Allah swt is the one and only ultimate destination for each and every task we do and we have to do it according to his desire. Then it is not just similar to shirk but this is undoubtedly a shirk if we try to place anything beside Allah swt.

Every thing is belongs to him. Allah SWT is Allah SWT. So we are unable to guided by him directly that is way he bless/helps us with his massangers time over time. We have to follow the massanger who came form us as a human not a jinn nor a angel those who are unable to cop-with our nature, desires and ability. Now we are also unable to benefited by massanger directly, Allah SWT have taken his massanger form us. But the Massanger SAW have build/curated a jama'h (group) in his life time and start the chain to convey his massage which will support as long as this world will exist through Ulama/Schollars.

Most of we are not Ulama or able to Superior knowledgeable in Islam. That is why we should thankful and loyal to them those who convey this knowledge (Quran & Hadith) and all other helpful event as we need according to those two (Quran & Hadith) over the time, culture, our nature...etc.

Last thing i would like to mention here, we should aware about Taq'wa (to save our self from any smells of shirk and bad deeds). Ameen.

Allahu Akbar.

 

[Precious Star]

Please refrain from this kind of speech. You are not responsible for training, appointing or selecting 'clerics'. It takes a minimum of seven years of first being in a position to be given the title of 'beginner' and I think even later to be able to give Fatawas. Do you have the same level of training in order to criticise him. What gives you the right to ask about his certification?

What training do you have in comparison. What is your level of specialisation; Fiqh, Seerah, Qur'an, Ahadith, Aqeedah, Hukmaniya or another area. If you disagree with his Fatawa, that is fine, but don't go beyond that. That is not your right.

Do you have the same Islamic knowledge, level of Eeman and job description as him and can defend your religious opinion using Qur'an and the Sunnah in addition to past and present rulings in accordance of the accepted Islamic criterion of doing so? Do you even know what the accepted Islamic criterion is? For example, some of the scholars have differences of opinion on the use of pictures in the home, can you tell me what things could be used by those who oppose it and those who favour it. Please do not talk about Qiyas, Ijma and the like, I am not referring to those aspects, but more specialised areas of discussion relating to the specific topic.

I have my own differences with the above brother in question and I also disagree with the above ruling, but I will not use that to question the authenticity of his qualifications and certification.

I don't know if this is one of a series of rulings you differ with in respect to the above brother himself, but if that is not so than ask yourself this question; If one ruling you disagree with is sufficient to make his certification questionable than what of everyone else in the same professional capacity, are they liable to have their own positions questioned because of one or more rulings and did Allah give the right for Non Sheikhs like yourself to ask where they received their certifications from and question their ability to pass judgement.

In respect to your quotation-

"That's why I'm asking you - did Allah SWT and His messenger prohibit snowmen? Or, did the cleric prohibit the snowmen? If you follow the cleric without following Allah, then it is similar to shirk....."

You are correct in asserting this, but does it mean you have the ability to question their official rank. No it does not. It gives you the right to disagree and decide not to follow his decree. It may be that other Scholars also disagree in addition to the ruler/s of the country. If the same 'cleric' as you call him and not scholar has made several or dozens of rulings that are highly questionable, outside of the Qur'an and Sunnah or otherwise then I agree we have a right to ask what his credentials are and where he received his training and certification from since there is a legitimate concern about a number of his rulings, but one especially like this is not. It is actually very trivial if you have the relevant training of a Sheikh to begin with. By the way, I am not a Sheikh myself, I am a student of religion and that is why I take greater offence than perhaps some of you have.

Tell me, if a qualified doctor gives a prognosis about a specific condition to a patient, how does it look if the patient not only disagrees but asks what is the certification of the said physician based on that individual medical assertion. This brings the following question into play; who is theoretically the person everyone in the hospital either patient, doctor or anyone else more willing to be operated on and seek medical advice on; the specific patient because of one or a few differences of opinion with the doctor or that same doctor who has both the qualifications, skills, expertise, training and informational ability to continue and apply their knowledge in other medical areas related to their field. Now put yourself in that position yourself and who would you trust?

We seem to have a different set of opinions when it comes to Islam, those with Islamic knowledge either don't know Islam even after years of study and those meant to learn from them with either no experience or fewer years of training and knowledge know more and want to challenge their authenticity by asking for their certification when we ourselves don't have it in the first place. I am sorry for this very personal attack on yourself Sister Precious Star, but you made an attack yourself on one of those who Allah described as the 'Heirs of the Prophets' in relation to the office he holds and that is of 'Scholar'.

I will also add, for those of you who have ever been to university and received your undergraduate or postgraduate degrees, if a student were to challenge a lecturer in one or more statements they have said, gave their own opinion and then asserted where did they obtain their credentials from, the usual automatic response is likely to be from the lecturer, 'OK perhaps I don't know anything about the subject I am teaching, maybe I am wasting my time here, maybe I didn't learn anything in those years of training in this field. It seems this student knows better and perhaps I should learn from him/her instead'. The student would then be invited to take the lecturer's place and start teaching as well as answer all questions about the subject (not just the topic in question alone) for the semester. What would then happen is that there would be a huge round of applause for the lecturer, a lot of laughter over the actions of the student and the humiliated and embarrassed student would apologise and say he/she does not have the same knowledge and training and not take up the offer. I will ask you now, do you have what it takes to replace the said scholar, can you compete with his knowledge and experience, can you assume his post and official position.

Finally, in the age of the social media, arrests have been known to be made based on laws governing the 'war on terror' over opinions alone and inferences. Now let me put the following sets of questions to you. If someone were to inform the scholar in question about your comments, what is to say he were to dislike it, found it objectionable and (Allah forbid), decide to take action against you.

By this I mean, he can sue you on the Day of Judgement for attempting to discredit him by asking for his certification through one fatwa alone. If Allah rules in favour of the scholar above yours, then do you have sufficient reward and good deeds to suffice for the legal damages you will incur for it. It doesn't end there either. By asking for his credentials, you are also in effect theoretically challenging the very people who awarded him that office; this includes all his teachers and the institutions responsible. You have theoretically questioned their credibility in having the ability to do so and in effect said you have the right to do so and they were wrong in selecting him. Do you still have sufficient good deeds to help yourself on the Day of Judgement if the ruling goes against you?

Unfortunately it doesn't end there either. The students of the scholar in question, can also sue. Why? Because by questioning the legitimacy of his credentials, you are questioning theirs by implying they are learning from someone who they shouldn't take knowledge from and hence their own knowledge and training is worthless. Since the scholar has been teaching for years, that means thousands of students year after year, (some of whom may have become scholars themselves by now and have students of their own) and you have just condemned them all. If those same students of the Sheikh and whole generations of students after them until the Day of Judgement have learnt from his teachings; that can include millions of people. If some or a substantive number of them sue and Allah rules in their favour, what will become of you and your status on the Day of Judgement. Lastly, what of all those who have accepted his rulings, learnt from him and passed on his fatwas, you are in effect condemning them as well and they can also sue as your statements further implies they have learnt from, taken and accepted from someone who is not worthy and they were wrong to do so. Do you still have sufficient good deeds if any of them decide to sue and Allah rules in their favour.

Please also remember, a Saudi is asking another Saudi a question. You obviously won't like this, but from my knowledge of what Saudi scholars are like, is that sometimes they will not say whether the same ruling applies abroad as well. They are sometimes vague about this and that is dangerous I agree, but it still does not give you or anyone else the right to think of question the validity of their office.

The ruling on women drivers immediately comes to mind and this controversial issue is one where there are still differences of opinion among the scholars. The ruling however is restricted to women inside the country alone and not meant for those outside it. I realise and accept some people including men of religion (not Sheikhs necessarily, but people with some knowledge and training in religion) and perhaps even some junior Sheikhs will however apply it as an international fatwa, but it is not.

For those of you who have been inside Saudi Arabia, you will have an idea of the dangers of rescinding the Fatwa at present. The Saudi scholars have made that ruling not because they don't trust the legitimacy of women being able or needing to drive, but have done so because they know and recognise the dangers of the men in their society to the women.

Remember, while there is strict segregation of the sexes and very little intermingling between them in public, true Eeman has not sunk in for many of the men, especially the youth, and there are literally thousands of unmarried men who don't understand the Islamic reasoning for separation of the two genders (and in their hearts, don't want it) and as such are capable of anything.

As laughable, as funny and as ludicrous and as pathetic as that sounds to Non Saudi and especially western women, I will say to you, you don't live there, you don't know the men, what they are like and what they are capable of. Saudi scholars have already issued warnings to foreign women and their families who travel to Saudi Arabia for Hajj and Umrah on what to do when arriving in the country in relation to the dangers from Saudi men specifically.

A clear and most unfortunate example is of the Saudi taxi driver [not non Saudi by the way, for some reason only Saudi drivers do this]. The scholars have said the Saudi taxi driver knows the foreign Hujajj [Hajj or Umrah traveller] trusts Saudis and sees Saudi Arabia as the land of the blessed and will think everyone there is among the best Muslims on earth. The Hujjaj will think nothing out of the ordinary when the Saudi taxi driver, will after a short time, say to the family that there is something wrong with the car and could the men go out and push. Once all the men depart and leave the women inside to help push the car, the Saudi taxi driver will speed off, take the women to the mountains and rape them. There are so many examples of foreign women being found in garbage cans days later, raped several times before being killed and then dumped in rubbish bins. It has become so prevalent and embarrassing that dozens of Saudi newspapers no longer want to publish stories about them any more.

I am not making a blanket judgement on all men or most men for that matter. I have lived in the country for nine years and I have some idea of the kind of things that transpire there. As much as there is good there, there are literally hundreds of differences with western and other nations in the mentality, mind set, thought patterns, cultural perceptions and ideological expectations of both the Saudi male and the Saudi female compared to other parts of the globe. True, they may possess a great deal of Islamic knowledge and they will apply much of it, but in select areas and refuse to in other things.

You are looking at a society that still believes foreign workers are nothing more than slaves and should be treated like so and many among those from poorest nations among labourers and semi skilled professionals are to this day. To use another relevant example, you are looking at a society where many of the men believe there is nothing wrong with raping maids.

It is this kind of society where female driving is highly dangerous at the present time. I taught at universities within in Saudi Arabia and when the issue of female drivers sometimes emerged as a topic, students (some of whom had been abroad and lived there for many years as well) freely gave their opinions. Remember these are Saudis talking about their own people.

Women would need assistance on the road when their cars break down. The number of men who would stop (not to help them) would exacerbate the problem to the point that the women would wish they had never asked for help. If such an occurrence happens at night and the middle of nowhere, this (remember these are Saudis talking about themselves) is a green light for wholesale rape. So please try to understand, especially women, why this ruling is in place and I have spoken with several scholars, why it will one day, be revoked when the circumstances and conditions for it to be withdrawn will be right to do so.

It will take several more generations to re-educate and re-train their minds and psychological values to tell them the world is not what they make it out to be and this includes some of the most highly travelled and most foreign educated and western trained Saudis as well. The latter, you may be surprised to know, take in the education and skills of the West, but leave behind what they have seen of the differences in culture and ethics and become even more hard hearted, stubborn, arrogant and if I might use the word, 'fixed', in their world view to their own national beliefs of racism, sexism, xenophobia and intolerance to those outside of their own nationality.

It is knowledge of this in mind that their scholars will make judgements and rulings, because they know their own people, people like you and me, we don't. It is not right for us to try and do their job for them.

Keeping in mind the context of this discussion, which is snowballs, I do wish to nonetheless add that yes, I do have a right to question the authenticity/credentials of a cleric or otherwise disagree with his position, unless there is a clear and concise rationale for his "ruling" that is embedded in Quran or sunnah. The reason being that islam does not have a clerical hierarchy. Unless y

 

[Abu Juwairiya]

Keeping in mind the context of this discussion, which is snowballs, I do wish to nonetheless add that yes, I do have a right to question the authenticity/credentials of a cleric or otherwise disagree with his position, unless there is a clear and concise rationale for his "ruling" that is embedded in Quran or sunnah. The reason being that islam does not have a clerical hierarchy. Unless y

Assalammu Alaikum Sister Precious Sister and Jazakallah Khayrun for your reply. I agree there is no 'clerical hierarchy' in the sense of the Imam structure, but the concept of 'Scholar' has existed since the time of the Prophet, so if you inculde them in the same context, I disagree with you and you will find that all the four major Maddhabs (if you agree with any or all of them) in addition to most of the Sunnic creeds also disagree with you and hold the 'scholar' and their credentials as being how I described the inheritors of the Prophets and the best ones to interpret the Qur'an and Sunnah and to pass judgement.

Second, since you seem adamant in upholding your opinions, may I ask where do you get your knowledge from. If it is from Qur'an and Sunnah, then for the most part do you rely on personal interpretation. Do you have any respect for scholars and where something is not found in the Qur'an and the English translations of what is available from the Sunnah, where do you obtain your information and how do you ascertain the accuracy of that?

Can you for example speak and understand Classical Arabic, otherwise known as 'Fus-haa', which is largely only known to Scholars and students of knowledge. Even most Arabs in the worlds don't know it and have to learn it as a foreign language. You will find that if you don't know the Classical Arabic language, your access to the Sunnah is limited and what is available is from 'Scholars' anyway.

May I also ask what works you consult to know what is from the Sunnah and what rules or criterion you have to interpret the Qur'an, (as there are several to do so first) and what 'works' if I can call them that do you use to interpret the Qur'an. Please do not say Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim, since like all books of Ahadith they have a need for interpretation as well. If you say you disbelieve in it, it only shows you are not aware of it.

I disagree with much of what you have said and my earlier comments still stand, but since you are keen to remain the way you are, there in no point in furthering this discussion. I won't press you on them any more.

 

[sister herb]

“God has given people space to make whatever they want which does not have a soul, including trees, ships, fruits, buildings and so on,” he wrote in his ruling.

This sounds very good and islamic reasoning. But we also need to remember that "snowmen" (if we can´t find any better name for kind of structures) or simply snowballs (also on top of each others) have no soul (as snowballs describe just balls). For this reason, we have to treat them as they are similar like trees, rocks or others whose do not have a soul, not as humans with soul.

Other matter is of course, are those snow-what-ever made in purpose looking as something with soul...

 

[Abu Juwairiya]

This message is from everyone. As a general point, I would like to add that if you take one ruling, one edict, one judicial opinion or one action and use it against a scholar; either past, present or future and decide that the person responsible for it should be removed, not taken seriously, has lost credibility and their credentials should be checked, than the following people in history should also be treated in the same way as Sheikh Munajjid-

1. Imam Bukhari and Imam Nawawi [the latter is the author of '40 Hadith']. They both made the ruling that certain women should be accepted as 'Prophets'. They both said Maryam bint Imran [the mother of Jesus], Hajira [the wife of Prophet Ibrahim (AS)] and the mother of Prophet Musa were Prophets.

2. Ibn Taymiyyah once made a ruling that the words used in the Qur'an referring to Istawa [rose in a manner that suits His Majesty] Allah could be described in a physical way and he demonstrated this during a public lecture by stepping down from a pulpit and saying that this is what is meant by Istawa and that is how Allah does so.

3. Aisha Bint Abu Bakr and Mu'awaiya Ibn Abu Sufyan. Yes they were both scholars as well as Companions. They both made the ruling that the Prophet Muhammad did not travel on to the Heavens on the Night of Mir'aj. Aisha, if I can add, is the fourth largest narrator of Ahadith and one of the greatest Islamic scholars of all time.

4. Umar Ibn Khattab (another scholar as well as a companion) issued the ruling (outside of the Qur'an and Sunnah) that twenty rakahs should be prayed for Taraweeh. The Prophet (SAW) never made more than eleven (eight for Taraweeh and three rakahs for Witr).

 

[Abu Juwairiya]

Allow me to state a few more points on a separate issue where the scholar's attention is needed.

1. In Islam it is forbidden to assert for yourself that you are the best person for a specific role, that you can do a better job than anyone else and that no one else should be given that role and if that if someone else other than yourself is selected, it will only lead to disaster. It is further impermissible to demand it. There is however, one general exception to this rule (it varies as well), where the Sunnah allows it and the Qur'an supports it. Does any non scholar or non student of religion know the answer?

2. In Islam it is permissible to join Non Muslim governments, where is the evidence in the Qur'an and Sunnah for this?

3. In Islam Allah says never to give up Jihad [the military aspect] until the Day of Judgement, where in the Qur'an and Sunnah is the exact legal directive for this?

4. In Islam, I believe it was Umar Ibn Khattab who issued the ruling that the Zoroastrians should be included as 'Ahlul Kitab' along with the Jews and Christians. This was in direct violation of the Qur'an Sunnah, but has been accepted by all generations since. Why was this ruling made and is it legitimate since it is not in the Qur'an and not in the Sunnah? Jizya could be collected from them and they could live side by side with the State and they could live by their own laws to govern themselves.

5. In 1990 AbdulAziz Bin Abdullah Bin Baz issued a ruling in which Non Muslim countries could station their forces in Saudi Arabia and assist in fighting Iraq (to defend Saudi Arabia, not to 'liberate Kuwait'). He said he had come to this decision after consulting the Qur'an Sunnah. What is the evidence from the Qur'an Sunnah for and against inviting Non Muslim armies for help and for fighting fellow Muslims?

 

[Precious Star]

Assalammu Alaikum Sister Precious Sister and Jazakallah Khayrun for your reply. I agree there is no 'clerical hierarchy' in the sense of the Imam structure, but the concept of 'Scholar' has existed since the time of the Prophet, so if you inculde them in the same context, I disagree with you and you will find that all the four major Maddhabs (if you agree with any or all of them) in addition to most of the Sunnic creeds also disagree with you and hold the 'scholar' and their credentials as being how I described the inheritors of the Prophets and the best ones to interpret the Qur'an and Sunnah and to pass judgement.

Second, since you seem adamant in upholding your opinions, may I ask where do you get your knowledge from. If it is from Qur'an and Sunnah, then for the most part do you rely on personal interpretation. Do you have any respect for scholars and where something is not found in the Qur'an and the English translations of what is available from the Sunnah, where do you obtain your information and how do you ascertain the accuracy of that?

Can you for example speak and understand Classical Arabic, otherwise known as 'Fus-haa', which is largely only known to Scholars and students of knowledge. Even most Arabs in the worlds don't know it and have to learn it as a foreign language. You will find that if you don't know the Classical Arabic language, your access to the Sunnah is limited and what is available is from 'Scholars' anyway.

May I also ask what works you consult to know what is from the Sunnah and what rules or criterion you have to interpret the Qur'an, (as there are several to do so first) and what 'works' if I can call them that do you use to interpret the Qur'an. Please do not say Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim, since like all books of Ahadith they have a need for interpretation as well. If you say you disbelieve in it, it only shows you are not aware of it.

I disagree with much of what you have said and my earlier comments still stand, but since you are keen to remain the way you are, there in no point in furthering this discussion. I won't press you on them any more.

Thank you Abu Juwairya. I think we need to make one thing clear. The discussions on this site are discussions. They are not meant to get personal. I understand that you are very learned and you certainly make every effort to let us know how educated and knowledgeable you are. But you go one step further and criticize the person you disagree with. "May I ask what works you consult" "May I ask if you know classical Arabic" "do you have the same level of training as..".

Much as you feel it is not my place to question scholars, it is not YOUR place to question my education either. I do not owe you answers to those questions. To the extent that you respect scholars (however you define that term - that term was never discussed when I was attending quranic and Islamic classes). You are fully free to indicate the source of your information, and where I have the source and where I feel it is pertinent I will do the same. I am fully open to a debate, but that's all it will ever be, a debate that will never, ever approach the personal aspects of the person who is responding to the debate. I can pose a number of questions to you, also, about your background, training, language skills, etc, but in my view that is an inappropriate and slightly rude manner of approaching a debate.

 

[Abu Juwairiya]

Thank you Abu Juwairya. I think we need to make one thing clear. The discussions on this site are discussions. They are not meant to get personal. I understand that you are very learned and you certainly make every effort to let us know how educated and knowledgeable you are. But you go one step further and criticize the person you disagree with. "May I ask what works you consult" "May I ask if you know classical Arabic" "do you have the same level of training as..".

Much as you feel it is not my place to question scholars, it is not YOUR place to question my education either. I do not owe you answers to those questions. To the extent that you respect scholars (however you define that term - that term was never discussed when I was attending quranic and Islamic classes). You are fully free to indicate the source of your information, and where I have the source and where I feel it is pertinent I will do the same. I am fully open to a debate, but that's all it will ever be, a debate that will never, ever approach the personal aspects of the person who is responding to the debate. I can pose a number of questions to you, also, about your background, training, language skills, etc, but in my view that is an inappropriate and slightly rude manner of approaching a debate.

I said what I said because you were very disrespectful to the scholar in question, otherwise I would have not been so direct. I still believe you were in breach of the acceptable Islamic guidelines and that you do not know the full details of both the fatwa, the context, the circumstances, the specific ruling and the general ruling relating to snowmen (yes he has made different fatwas on the subject of snowmen, the one on this discussion was the one for Saudi Arabia alone).

You spoke of a subject you know little about, you gave no evidence to support your opinion, you did not say what the Prophet (SAW), The companions, te first three generations or other scholars have said and did not say what evidence there is to say he was wrong but you still gave your own fatwa and decided to ask for his certification based on fatwa alone. That was why I spoke to you the way I have.

If I can add, I did not originally intend to speak of my own education. I am also aware of the Ahadith which speak of 'Riya' and that is to 'show off'. I only included aspects of what I have learned to show the kind of things needed to first make a fatwa and in being a scholar. I had not before this thread said too much about my Islamic education, as I did not deem it to be relevant. In this thread I spoke about it at length to stress the importance of the conditions for speaking about a topic in Islam to begin with, so that everyone could be aware of them. If I am aware of something, do you think I should keep silent and if I am asked how I know what do you expect me to say. If you remember I have always usually said I am not a Sheikh, my knowledge is limited and I am liable to mistakes and errors, so you cannot use that argument against me either.

But despite the lack of those 'ingredients' if I can call them that, which I spoke about as necessary to make a judgement, you still seem intent on educating us about and telling us that the scholar is wrong, without using them.

Since you attacked Allah's Representative in the manner that you did and still believe in on a public forum, I defended him by addressing why you were wrong to do so in detail so that both you and others are at least aware of the gravity of you actions. It is one thing you disagree, its quite another to attack their reputation. I can say on the Day of Decision that I informed all of you in full of why you were wrong, after that I am not accountable.

As to deliberate hurt or humiliation towards you, that was not my intention. It still isn't. I have given you a full account and provided you even with secular examples just to illustrate the logic of your action and opinion to attack the scholar as being wrong, if people can accept this cannot happen or is acceptable at university, it is even less acceptable with scholars.

In respect to asking you about your own Islamic education, I did not see it as personal or rude as it pertains to the discussion itself. I wanted to stress to you how handicapped a person is when you do not know the language most of Islamic education is in and has yet to be translated and second, the fact that you use translations means your access is dependent on only those things that have been translated only. If you had seen what I was trying to say you would not have found it to be personal. Its meant to show you cannot compete with someone who knows the language, has access to what you don't and can speak about each topic using those very sources that you can't.

When you speak of rudeness, I regard your manner against the Scholar to be very rude, the fact that you don't is another matter. I asked you questions about your sources of knowledge and knowledge of Classical Arabic again to show both to you and to others on the forum about your great lack of knowledge compared to someone like him and you still hold the same opinions despite the variance in education between yourselves. I am personally not interested in your own education or in personalising this as you think I am, it is a discussion, and I would not have spoken as I did had you not made it personal by attacking him personally. You attacked his reputation and that made it personal. So you cannot use that argument against me either.

Lastly, you should also be aware that I have since added two general fatwas given by the same scholar where he agrees with the views said on the forum by users on the forum including yourself, which brings me to the next point- were you aware of this and how much of an investigation did you make to check out your facts, the truth of your opinions and what you wished today before posting them, I rest my case.

While the QA section may not be very old, he has on many an occasion spoke about topics related to snowmen as well as on snowmen itself over several years, did you know that before you post and if not why did you not check things out first. There is a divine penalty as you are aware for speaking without knowledge and saying things with the intent of bringing harm on a person reputation when your own opinion is wrong.

 

[Abu Juwairiya]

I enclose two general rulings by Sheikh Munajjid about the building of Snowmen from Islam QA where he is a contributor. If you compare these two with the one in this thread, you will see there is a difference in audience. The first two are for all Muslims in general, the one in this thread from which he has received his notoriety relates to Saudi Arabia alone.

1. http://islamqa.info/en/146628

2. http://islamqa.info/en/226557

I did not mention this earlier for a few reasons. One was that I wanted to see how many members of the forum were aware that the same Sheikh actually agreed with the sentiments expressed by forum members and further used and advanced the same arguments in his defence for permitting the building of snowmen as something that was not in breach of Islamic guidelines and principles. But, being a Saudi also knew his people and what they are like when it comes to building snowmen.

Unfortunately, a huge number of Saudis (not necessarily the majority) tend to make snowmen as lifelike and human as possible and they are not always 'decent' (to use a polite expression for something that clearly is not) either by the time some of the children are finished.

 

[Precious Star]

I said what I said because you were very disrespectful to the scholar in question, otherwise I would have not been so direct. I still believe you were in breach of the acceptable Islamic guidelines and that you do not know the full details of both the fatwa, the context, the circumstances, the specific ruling and the general ruling relating to snowmen (yes he has made different fatwas on the subject of snowmen, the one on this discussion was the one for Saudi Arabia alone).

You spoke of a subject you know little about, you gave no evidence to support your opinion, you did not say what the Prophet (SAW), The companions, te first three generations or other scholars have said and did not say what evidence there is to say he was wrong but you still gave your own fatwa and decided to ask for his certification based on fatwa alone. That was why I spoke to you the way I have.

If I can add, I did not originally intend to speak of my own education. I am also aware of the Ahadith which speak of 'Riya' and that is to 'show off'. I only included aspects of what I have learned to show the kind of things needed to first make a fatwa and in being a scholar. I had not before this thread said too much about my Islamic education, as I did not deem it to be relevant. In this thread I spoke about it at length to stress the importance of the conditions for speaking about a topic in Islam to begin with, so that everyone could be aware of them. If I am aware of something, do you think I should keep silent and if I am asked how I know what do you expect me to say. If you remember I have always usually said I am not a Sheikh, my knowledge is limited and I am liable to mistakes and errors, so you cannot use that argument against me either.

But despite the lack of those 'ingredients' if I can call them that, which I spoke about as necessary to make a judgement, you still seem intent on educating us about and telling us that the scholar is wrong, without using them.

Since you attacked Allah's Representative in the manner that you did and still believe in on a public forum, I defended him by addressing why you were wrong to do so in detail so that both you and others are at least aware of the gravity of you actions. It is one thing you disagree, its quite another to attack their reputation. I can say on the Day of Decision that I informed all of you in full of why you were wrong, after that I am not accountable.

As to deliberate hurt or humiliation towards you, that was not my intention. It still isn't. I have given you a full account and provided you even with secular examples just to illustrate the logic of your action and opinion to attack the scholar as being wrong, if people can accept this cannot happen or is acceptable at university, it is even less acceptable with scholars.

In respect to asking you about your own Islamic education, I did not see it as personal or rude as it pertains to the discussion itself. I wanted to stress to you how handicapped a person is when you do not know the language most of Islamic education is in and has yet to be translated and second, the fact that you use translations means your access is dependent on only those things that have been translated only. If you had seen what I was trying to say you would not have found it to be personal. Its meant to show you cannot compete with someone who knows the language, has access to what you don't and can speak about each topic using those very sources that you can't.

When you speak of rudeness, I regard your manner against the Scholar to be very rude, the fact that you don't is another matter. I asked you questions about your sources of knowledge and knowledge of Classical Arabic again to show both to you and to others on the forum about your great lack of knowledge compared to someone like him and you still hold the same opinions despite the variance in education between yourselves. I am personally not interested in your own education or in personalising this as you think I am, it is a discussion, and I would not have spoken as I did had you not made it personal by attacking him personally. You attacked his reputation and that made it personal. So you cannot use that argument against me either.

Lastly, you should also be aware that I have since added two general fatwas given by the same scholar where he agrees with the views said on the forum by users on the forum including yourself, which brings me to the next point- were you aware of this and how much of an investigation did you make to check out your facts, the truth of your opinions and what you wished today before posting them, I rest my case.

While the QA section may not be very old, he has on many an occasion spoke about topics related to snowmen as well as on snowmen itself over several years, did you know that before you post and if not why did you not check things out first. There is a divine penalty as you are aware for speaking without knowledge and saying things with the intent of bringing harm on a person reputation when your own opinion is wrong.

I did not insult Allah's representative. Thank you for reminding me of the divine penalty that awaits me but please keep in mind that that is Allah's prerogative and not your's

Please remember that there is a divine penalty for arrogance.

 

[zaman-gm]

Allahu Akbar.
May Allah protect us from the trap of Accursed Satan. Ameen.
“The believers, in their love, mutual kindness, and close ties, are like one body; when any part complains, the whole body responds to it with weakfulness and fever”. (Muslim)

Sub han Allah.

 

[Abu Juwairiya]

I did not insult Allah's representative. Thank you for reminding me of the divine penalty that awaits me but please keep in mind that that is Allah's prerogative and not your's

Please remember that there is a divine penalty for arrogance.

Assalammu Alaikum and Jazakallah Khayrun Sister Precious Star.

Peace be unto you.

Wasallam

Abu Juwairiya