Turkish Schools Offer Pakistan a Gentler Vision of Islam

[deovolente]

Mr. Gulen's idea is that "without science, religion turns to radicalism, and without religion, science is blind and brings the world to danger,"


GO TO THE ARTICLE :

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/04/world/asia/04islam.html?_r=2&ref=todayspaper&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

 

[al-fajr]

:salam2:

I just skimmed the article.

Now a government employee with a steady job, he sees real life as more complicated than black-and-white ideology.

“America or the West was always behind every fault, every problem,” he said, at a gathering of fathers in April. “Now, in my practical life, I know the faults are within us.”

Many Ulemaa have told us the fault is our own and from within us anyway, I didnt need a backward secular education to help me understand that.

And those Turks lost Islam way before 1924, who are they kidding?

:edit: My point is directed at the Turks in the article not Turkish people in general.

 

[harun]

Thank you for sharig!
Hope it will have a positive affect on the society, insha'allah!

 

[harun]

..)

And those Turks lost Islam way before 1924, who are they kidding?
(...)

well, not the "turks" lost Islam, the caliphate, infact we muslims lost it.
in the past there was a collective hinking of being one ummah, not like today nationalism.
our nation is being muslim not more or less...

 

[al-fajr]

^ I do agree with you.

If there are any people who are considering PMing me utter rubbish about secular Islam, forget it, I dare you guys to do it out here on the thread - air your views and lets have a mature discourse about it okay?

 

[Salem9022]

This is not a discussion between Secular Islam or Traditional Islam because there is no such thing, It's the difference between Islam and Not Islam, If you go to Pakistan you will see all the forms of Shirks like grave worshipping, Saint Worshipping, Idol Worshipping, etc. and all forms of Bidah LIke Practising Prophets Birthday and puting a Egg with Coffee Beans Over Your Head so it can give you good Luck lol. So You see that is what we need to address, we can start discussing Islam when people in pakistan actually start practising Islam without the shirk and Bidah and this goes for turkey as well.

 

[al-fajr]

This is not a discussion between Secular Islam or Traditional Islam because there is no such thing, It's the difference between Islam and Not Islam, If you go to Pakistan you will see all the forms of Shirks like grave worshipping, Saint Worshipping, Idol Worshipping, etc. and all forms of Bidah LIke Practising Prophets Birthday and puting a Egg with Coffee Beans Over Your Head so it can give you good Luck lol. So You see that is what we need to address, we can start discussing Islam when people in pakistan actually start practising Islam without the shirk and Bidah and this goes for turkey as well

This thread isnt about bid'ah and the like, its about certain people propagating their 'version' of Islam which is secular, imposing it on children and poisoning their minds. I agree, there is no such thing as 'alternative Islam'

And watch out, there are some Turkish takfeeri's who will probs call you a kafir for that bit in bold ...:astag:

 

[xSharingan01x]

This thread isnt about bid'ah and the like, its about certain people propagating their 'version' of Islam which is secular, imposing it on children and poisoning their minds. I agree, there is no such thing as 'alternative Islam'

And watch out, there are some Turkish takfeeri's who will probs call you a kafir for that bit in bold ...:astag:

It's not necessarily secular as you're assuming.
The article in New York Times does not explicitly state that.
The Turkish teacher's primary goal is to spread education and knowledge within the heart of rural Islamic communities, which in my opinion can only benefit the community. These rural communities engage in many "unislamic activities, mainly because they are not aware of the practices according to Quran and Sunnah" I don't see how that can be harmful.
For god's sake many of these imams in these communities in Pakistan, Banglades, etc do not even understand Arabic, yet they know the entire Quran by heart and teach it to the children.
If the Turkish teacher can change that, more power to him!
Every should be happy

 

[al-fajr]

....stupid

It's not necessarily secular as you're assuming.
The article in New York Times does not explicitly state that.
The Turkish teacher's primary goal is to spread education and knowledge within the heart of rural Islamic communities, which in my opinion can only benefit the community. These rural communities engage in many "unislamic activities, mainly because they are not aware of the practices according to Quran and Sunnah" I don't see how that can be harmful.
For god's sake many of these imams in these communities in Pakistan, Banglades, etc do not even understand Arabic, yet they know the entire Quran by heart and teach it to the children.
If the Turkish teacher can change that, more power to him!
Every should be happy

Please look closely at the following quotes from the article, after doing so, if you still believe they will bring Islam back according to te Qur'aan and Sunnah - then ...

Their efforts are important in Pakistan, a nuclear power whose stability and whose vulnerability to fundamentalism have become main preoccupations of American foreign policy.

Its tribal areas have become a refuge to the Taliban and Al Qaeda, and the battle against fundamentalism rests squarely on young people and the education they get.

Many simply teach, but some have radical agendas

whats that got to do with removing bid'ah and shirk? (which is huge problem i agree but this is not the topic at hand) these people are not rectifying those problems.

They prescribe a strong Western curriculum, with courses, taught in English, from math and science to English literature and Shakespeare. They do not teach religion beyond the one class in Islamic studies that is required by the state.

Back to the Qur'aan and Sunnah? they 'prescribe' as if this Islam in the minds of children is some sort of mental illness.

“Whatever the West has of science, let our kids have it,” said Erkam Aytav, a Turk who works in the new schools. “But let our kids have their religion as well.”

Theyre doing nothing but reducing the amount of religion being taught, Pakistan has a strong science curriculum already.

“They are totally against extremism,” Mr. Bari said of the Turks. “They are true Muslims. They will make my brother into a true Muslim. He’ll deal with people with justice and wisdom. Not with impatience.”

I cant comment on this article without risking the possiblity of being banned.

But while radical Islamists seek to re-establish a seventh-century Islamic caliphate

So its radical to want a Khilafah?

The title of the article says 'gentler Islam' not 'Islam according to the Qur'aan and Sunnah'

This is pathetic, people have such issues, they think ANYthing is better to the type of Islam you find in south asia, even Mustafa Kemal Ataturk style!

thats crazzzyy

And one more thing:

For god's sake many of these imams in these communities in Pakistan, Bangladesh, etc do not even understand Arabic, yet they know the entire Quran by heart and teach it to the children.
If the Turkish teacher can change that, more power to him!
Every should be happy

Your kidding .....! Why would a turk know arabic compared to the one who memorised the Qur'aan? I seriously think this bit is some sorta Joke ...

 

[Abel213]

The Turks need to fix their country first...

 

[summertime]

Theyre doing nothing but reducing the amount of religion being taught, Pakistan has a strong science curriculum already.

Having lived and studied in Pakistan for 12 years i am quite familiar with the system of education in pakistan, both in private and government schools.

This is not a reduction in the amount of religion being taught ...in regular schools there is only one subject called " islamiate" which is taught along with urdu, English and the rest of the subjects taught anywhere else around the world....beyond that there is nothing else related to islam

...however if you opt for a religious school (madrassa) you are not taught english, math or any science. In most cases you are not even taught the translation of what you are memorising...i speak from experience both my own and that of family members....

Before critising attempts by others we must first think what we are doing/willing to do, to help the situation


I don't mean to attack in anyway and please forgive me if my reply seems too harsh... this is just my personal opinion on the basis of personal experience

 

[al-fajr]

^ lol sis, did you read the article? i was referring to the PakTurk schools, not standard education in Pakistan so no worries.

 

[summertime]

i did read the article...what im trying to say is..that the pak turk school is not reducing the amount of religion....there is nt much religion in most of the schools anyway...and the ones which do have it...they pay no attention to other education..or even traslation of the quran etc

 

[abubaseer]

Sisters,

In typical Madrasas of India-Pakistan (except Ahl- E-Hadees or Salafi ones):
The students are taught

- Persian for about 2 years (why ?)
- They are taught Greek Philliosphy and Logic (What has Greek Phillosophy got to do with Islaam, or even with our day-to-day life).
- Books of hadeeth like Bukhari and Muslim are completed in a Super-fast way.

The above is true even in Dar ul Uloom Deoband.

 

[ShahnazZ]

i did read the article...what im trying to say is..that the pak turk school is not reducing the amount of religion....there is nt much religion in most of the schools anyway...and the ones which do have it...they pay no attention to other education..or even traslation of the quran etc

I agree with you wholeheartedly. Firstly, I'm just as Pakistani as the next one and I can barely tolerate negative criticism of my country or my religion, but this is something that I not only acknowledge but also whose importance I cannot STRESS enough. It is a FACT that a huge majority of Pakistani citizens in Pakistan are illiterate and a significant number of these are also very "radical" muslims. The term radical is loosely defined because even though I reject any type of western imposition on Islam, I do believe that many of these individuals misinterpret many Islamic ideas based on a lack of education. And whether you liked him or not, Mr. Kacmaz stated that “How we interpret the Koran is totally dependent on our education” and I believe this is a valid statement. One relays the facts he or she is exposed to based on their knowledge of communication, elaboration, and interpretation of those facts. Intentional or not, if one is lacking in the proper ability to do any of those then it is highly likely that he or she will not interpret the fact correctly. The idea of giving Pakistani children Western education AND maintaining their Islam IMO is a stroke of GENIUS. It will not only empower them to stand strong against a "superior" nation (as the Western powers claim themselves in so many ways to be) but to also perfect their Deen to the best of their abilities and to further help the nation of Pakistan to prosper as hopefully one of "the frontier nations of Islam" InshAllah.:tti_sister:

 

[ShahnazZ]

Sisters,

In typical Madrasas of India-Pakistan (except Ahl- E-Hadees or Salafi ones):
The students are taught

- Persian for about 2 years (why ?)

First of all, IMO its a very good thing they're learning Farsi. I myself have learned it. Why, you ask? Because it was through the Persian invasions (AFTER the Arab and Turk) that Islam was further solidified and expanded GREATLY in the Indian Subcontinent. The Persian culture and language is a HUGE part of our history and I think it's a very good idea that Farsi is still being maintained on those syllabi. However, I do believe that knowledge of the Arabic language precedes that but I believe Farsi should immediately follow. It will help them to further maintain their pride as being part of a once vast and great Islamic empire. Another fact is that there has been a long linguistic movement occurring in Pakistan for a long time for the revival of Farsi as one of our main languages. This is so that Pakistan will easily be more assimilated into its Persian counterparts (as it once was), instead of only being connected to India (a predominantly Hindu country). Even though it is the cultural language of Pakistan (with Urdu being the national one and Arabic being the religious one), initially when it was a part of the Mughal Persian empire, Pakistanis spoke Farsi. This further helped them to maintain communication and connection with their Persian counterparts to the east as well as maintaining that Muslim brotherhood.

Basically, knowledge of the language (after Arabic) will further enhance their identity as Muslims and their pride in their Islamic history. Plus, it's one of the main "Islamic" languages in the world right now, after Arabic and Urdu.

 

[Abel213]

:salam2:
I have a question:

What kind of Farsi do Pakistanis learn? The kind that us Afghans and Tajikis speak or the kind that Iranis speak? I've never met a Pakistani that knew Farsi so that's news to me. I also want to compliment the Pakistani people, I've noticed that they are some of the most islamic-practicing people that I have ever met.

 

[al-fajr]

Okay, but do you believe the PakTurk schools are the way forward? I dont, I'm not denying the problems in the Pakistani education system (though I haven't experianced first hand)

I think theyre distorting Islam, far from removing the problems which you guys have decribed. I dont like the supercillious atittude of the people who go in with their own doctrine calling it ''Islam'', I dont believe there IS a 'gentler version' of Islam, there are no versions, so what is really going on here? Replacing one evil with another? Thats not a solution. Reading between the lines, in fact you dont even have to read between them to see it, its blatant indoctrination.

The last thing we need is the next generation in Pakistan to lose their Islamic identity as the Turks did - I see too many similarities for my liking.

Maybe I'm reading too much into this ? maybe, but thats how I see it.

 

[abubaseer]

First of all, IMO its a very good thing they're learning Farsi. I myself have learned it. Why, you ask? Because it was through the Persian invasions (AFTER the Arab and Turk) that Islam was further solidified and expanded GREATLY in the Indian Subcontinent. The Persian culture and language is a HUGE part of our history and I think it's a very good idea that Farsi is still being maintained on those syllabi. However, I do believe that knowledge of the Arabic language precedes that but I believe Farsi should immediately follow. It will help them to further maintain their pride as being part of a once vast and great Islamic empire. Another fact is that there has been a long linguistic movement occurring in Pakistan for a long time for the revival of Farsi as one of our main languages. This is so that Pakistan will easily be more assimilated into its Persian counterparts (as it once was), instead of only being connected to India (a predominantly Hindu country). Even though it is the cultural language of Pakistan (with Urdu being the national one and Arabic being the religious one), initially when it was a part of the Mughal Persian empire, Pakistanis spoke Farsi. This further helped them to maintain communication and connection with their Persian counterparts to the east as well as maintaining that Muslim brotherhood.

Basically, knowledge of the language (after Arabic) will further enhance their identity as Muslims and their pride in their Islamic history. Plus, it's one of the main "Islamic" languages in the world right now, after Arabic and Urdu.

Alhamdulillah! ALL languages are sign from Allah, as he says in Surah Rum.

And of His signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. Lo! herein indeed are portents for men of knowledge.


But, teaching of languages should not be at the expense of Hadith.
For Islaamic schools Arabic is more than enough.

But, why do the Kamalist Turks want to teach Shakespear (Wali Miya Shaykh Peer LOL)in Islaamic Schools in Pakistan?

It is as ridiculous as asking Engineering Colleges to teach Shakespeare.

 

[xSharingan01x]

Alhamdulillah! ALL languages are sign from Allah, as he says in Surah Rum.

And of His signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. Lo! herein indeed are portents for men of knowledge.


But, teaching of languages should not be at the expense of Hadith.
For Islaamic schools Arabic is more than enough.

But, why do the Kamalist Turks want to teach Shakespear (Wali Miya Shaykh Peer LOL)in Islaamic Schools in Pakistan?

It is as ridiculous as asking Engineering Colleges to teach Shakespeare.

Saalam

Well the Turk education movement that is described in the article, does not even have the support of the backing of the Turkish government.
According to the article, it is mainly business owners who support the expansion of Turkic school.

Having western education is not necessarily bad, I've learned much more about Islam after living in USA than I did in my Islamic country.
As a brother stated earlier, "There is only one required Islamic class in school" IMO such class does not really teach much, and the method of teaching is not productive at all.
If the Turkish schools do not harm Islam or Muslims, then I have no problem with it.

That being said.
Philosophy, science, along with Quran and Sunnah should be heavily encouraged in Muslim countries.
Every one should learn Arabic in school,so they will be able to understand and appreciate the Quran without relying on translation and Maolanas and Mullahs (referring to the ones in subcontinent).

Just imagine this, if Muslim countries had a curriculum something similar to the following:
K-8: Strong emphasis on Arabic, religious studies, along with math, science, and english.
8-12, Required classes on Islamic history, culture, etc... (along with the standard math, science, art, etc..)
At the college level, if the universities offered curriculum similar to Al-Azhar University. That way, people have the option to receive a great secular and religious education according to whatever they choose.

I know it sounds wishy/washy, but if Muslim countries followed something along that line, I think illiteracy would be reduced dramatically at the same time we would have a strong educated class endowed with good religious knowledge and also secular education to compete in the workforce (domestically and internationally). Of course, education from k-12 would have to be free.


There is nothing wrong with trying to bring back the Caliphate, but I doubt such things will happen in our life time or our children's life time. I would actually be happy, in fact all Muslims should be happy if the Caliphate was to return.

Sorry if I didn't make any sense, it is really late here and I'm sleepy.


Wasalam,

Shoaib