why there is no thread about the pope speech

[Ahmed ibn Ibrahim]

Sorry, but respect is earned not assumed in my household - And the Pope has a long way to go towards earning my respect after spreading hate and lies with his speeches, after participating in the Nazi Youth, and for acting as an intermediary between the people and God. Having a made-man formula to become infallible in his special chair doesn't change my mind much on the matter, either.

I wouldn't care what Christians call Muhammad PBUH - and I assure you his petnames are alot worse than 'Mo - cause most of them of going to Hell anyway. =) However, I know some brothers out East who take these sorts of insults much more personally and can be rather aggressive in their outrage ... I really wouldn't suggest slagging off the Prophet.

 

[Bluegazer]

Assalamu Alaikum brother Brandon,


I don't think sister Joslyn meant to call you a liar [even in an indiredct way]. It's just that it's a big misconception with all non Catholics [e.g. Protestants] that "The Pope can do no wrong" without being more specific.


This is what I found in wikipedia:

"Statements by a pope that exercise papal infallibility are referred to as solemn papal definitions or ex cathedra teachings. These should not be confused with teachings that are infallible because of a solemn definition by an ecumenical council, or with teachings that are infallible in virtue of being taught by the ordinary and universal magisterium. For details on these other kinds of infallible teachings, see Infallibility of the Church.

According to the teaching of the First Vatican Council and Catholic tradition, the conditions required for ex cathedra teaching are as follows:

1. "the Roman Pontiff"
2. "speaks ex cathedra" ("that is, when in the discharge of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, and by virtue of his supreme apostolic authority….")
3. "he defines"
4. "that a doctrine concerning faith or morals"
5. "must be held by the whole Church" (Pastor Aeternus, chap. 4)
For a teaching by a pope or ecumenical council to be recognized as infallible, the teaching must make it clear that it is definitive and binding. There is not any specific phrasing required for this, but it is usually indicated by one or both of the following: (1) a verbal formula indicating that this teaching is definitive (such as "We declare, decree and define..."), or (2) an accompanying anathema stating that anyone who deliberately dissents is outside the Catholic Church. For example, in Munificentissimus Deus, Pope Pius XII's infallible definition regarding the Assumption of the Virgin Mary, there are attached these words: "Hence if anyone, which God forbid, should dare willfully to deny or to call into doubt that which We have defined, let him know that he has fallen away completely from the divine and Catholic Faith."

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility


This point is important to Catholics. When we Muslims show them that we're knowledgable enough to stear away from a common misconception about Catholicism, I think that will in turn make them want to learn more about Islam from reliable sources so that they can avoid having misconceptions about Islam.


Having said that, I'd like to add to what you posted on your first post on this thread. You said:

And, by the way, I have only dealt in this post with the Roman Catholic History of Violence ... and there is indeed another Roman Catholic History that has nothing to do with this topic, but I'm gunna say it anyway: Roman Catholics need to wake up and fully realize their Church's history regarding Priests sexually abusing young alterboys (and sometimes girls).

I totally agree with you. I used to think I knew all there is to know about the Priests' abuse of children, untill I saw a documentary about this topic called "Sex Crimes and the Vatican" [produced by the BBC]. You've probably already seen this, but if you haven't, please watch it. There are very disturbing new facts about this whole tragedy.

Sex Crimes and the Vatican


Regards,

Bluegazer

 

[Joslyn]

Sorry, but respect is earned not assumed in my household -

Brother, I am trying to respect you right now, but you make my own phillosophy very difficult to act out. I write a whole post about what I was really talking about when you jumped the gun and assumed I was calling you a liar. You could at least have the decency to say, "Thanks. Guess I took you wrong." As it is, you're making my days of being a new Muslim rather heartbreaking.

 

[Marwa17]

I think it should be obvious that the Pope meant what he said...When people make speeches, I don't think they pull the words out of the back of their minds, do they??? They know what they are going to say and prepare it well...Especially someone like the pope who people are always watching...Either way, I would just like to make a point...The pope is a regular person...as muslims, we don't think of him as more or less significant than another human being...In Islam, when someone insults the prophet, what are we supposed to do?? Ignore them...Never invite them in our homes and lives again...I know that everyone has probably met or heard someone insult the prophet...this is not a lesser sin because they are "no one important"....Allah will judge him and hold him accountable for his actions...The apology? It should not be to us as muslims but to our religion...to Allah and Mohamed (s).

 

[Ahmed ibn Ibrahim]

:salam2:

Yeah I've read and met enough people to know plenty, thank you though (regarding the documentary on Catholic sexual abuse, that is). The Roman Catholics have been leading people astray even since they assumed the power of the dying Roman Empire - ever since they declared that because the awful Muslims are so concerned with wasting water and cleaning themselves all day long that we Christians must'nt (which turned out to be a major contributing factor to The Plague) - ever since they insisted that their religious men and women musn't marry to preserve their purity (and go against the God-made design of human beings, also a major factor to all this sexual abuse) - ever since they first tried selling people hand-written pardons on parchment paper for their sins..! Only 10 silver; Sunday Sale!

I thank you kindly for your insight, though, and am pleased to hear that I misunderstood your liar-by-omition comment, Sister. May Allah guide us all. It's just that to not lie is automatically assumed among Muslims - there's no real need to bring it up, unless you doubt someone's truthfulness I'd guess. Please reread my comments - any aggression I may feel is in response to the Pope, not to you Sister.

 

[Marwa17]

WHOA!!!!...why's everyone getting bent out of shape???...lol...allah will judge us all...we can't judge anyone nor can we stereotype about a whole religion...There's good in everyone...Allah can change us all for the best and i pray that he does.

 

[Joslyn]

:salam2:

Yeah I've read and met enough people to know plenty, thank you though (regarding the documentary on Catholic sexual abuse, that is). The Roman Catholics have been leading people astray even since they assumed the power of the dying Roman Empire - ever since they declared that because the awful Muslims are so concerned with wasting water and cleaning themselves all day long that we Christians must'nt (which turned out to be a major contributing factor to The Plague) - ever since they insisted that their religious men and women musn't marry to preserve their purity (and go against the God-made design of human beings, also a major factor to all this sexual abuse) - ever since they first tried selling people hand-written pardons on parchment paper for their sins..! Only 10 silver; Sunday Sale!

Sorry, but I will not respect Benny or his "Church" ... they've been backward since the beginning, and continue to practice all sorts of invented garbage as they grasp desperately for control. Which religion is losing people the fastest in the world? Catholicism. Which religion is gaining people the fastest? Islam.

Heck, just a couple of weeks ago some crazy, sex-deprived Catholic priest set himself ablaze in a suicidal protest against the Church's inability to keep their congregation and (specifically) at their impotency in stopping the spread of Islam!

I thank you kindly for your insight, though, and am pleased to hear that I misunderstood your liar-by-omition comment, Sister. May Allah guide us all.

Again, what had ANY of this post (but 2% of it) have to do with what I had just written? I think you are just looking to spew your anger. I am glad I never met Muslims like you before reverting, or I would probably have been so put off, I would have never have considered Islam. And then I would have been lost.

May Allah guide you, because no one else can, for sure.

PS. I am so frustrated, I am crying right now.

 

[Ahmed ibn Ibrahim]

What that post had to do with your post was that you asked me to show respect for Benedict - I then listed some more reasons why I choose not to. In my opinion, it's entirely on-topic to this thread as well as related to your post.

I am sorry to evoke such powerful emotions in you. There is no need to be so defensive. Clearly I misunderstood your liar-by-omition comment; clearly you would have known you weren't accusing me of being a liar. So all is good, then. As I edited into my last post, generally there's no need to bring up this among Muslims as it's an assumed quality of character, which is why I misunderstood you.

 

[Joslyn]

What that post had to do with your post was that you asked me to show respect for Benedict - I then listed some more reasons why I choose not to. In my opinion, it's entirely on-topic to this thread as well as related to your post.

I am sorry to evoke such powerful emotions in you. There is no need to be so defensive. Clearly I misunderstood your liar-by-omition comment; clearly you would have known you weren't accusing me of being a liar. So all is good, then. As I edited into my last post, generally there's no need to bring up this among Muslims as it's an assumed quality of character, which is why I misunderstood you.

Thank you, brother.... I am not familiar with how quality of character is assumed in Islam, because I am so new. As it is, I am currently in a house owned by my Christian in-laws, in a state that is far away from where my husband and I live, for a holiday that I do not celebrate. And I will probably have to divorce my husband because he is a Maronite Catholic, and from what I understand, our marriage may not be valid anymore. (And we've only been married since May.) As you can imagine, I am very lonely. I came to the forums looking for friendship and some intelligent dialogue, and took what you said wrong probably because of all of the above working together. Please forgive me for misjudging you.

 

[firdeus]

Dear sister Joselyn,
I just read the last post of yours and I must confess I feel worried little about you. I was about asking this question, but since you brought it up, I wanted to ask, have you ever talked with your husband about your belief, is any way you can discuss this with him? Maybe this is still fresh for you, but introducing him to islam, would be a good start, and you might get help from the same one that helped you understanding islam (I believe you mentioned Yusuf Estees). Also sister make dua. Allah sends ease for each hardsheep. If you want to talk about this please feel free, if we can help you in any way.

Salam

 

[ibn azem]

:salam2:

Dear sister Joslyn,

Your last posts have drawn my attention as well, you should know that you do have here so many brothers and sisters that feel for you and you should never feel alone nor frustrated.
You have found the Truth subhanallah, that is by Allah the most precious gift you could ever get in your life even if were to live a million years or more - Islam.
So don't you ever doubt that you are alone, because you are for sure not alone. Allah (swt) will make it easy for you and you will get over this sterssful time. You should also not forget that Allah (swt) can put you on test whether you really believe in Him, so you have to stand firm because you have the best future as a muslimah in front of you for sure. You will by the will of Allah be eased and the best end is for the believers, and don't forget that the Jannah is not won that easy. There's trials in life, and as you had trials before Islam you will have as a muslimah however, now you have Allah (swt) on your side insha'Allah to put your trust in. And He is the One we all should put our trust on.

Whatever you need do not hesitate, we will try our best to be of help sister!

I ask Allah (swt) to make it easy for you in this life sister, and reward you with Jannatul- Firdaws insha'Allah.

wasalaam

 

[Ahmed ibn Ibrahim]

My dear Sister, forgive my bluntness ... this is the Current Affairs section, and this is quite a hot-topic as you can tell - A passionate place where some of us feel very strongly. I'm afraid you may have somehow been caught in the ideological cross-fire quite unintentionally.

As a new Muslim and recently a devout Catholic, I might advise that you try to stick to topics that will broaden your understanding of our religion itself, not the endless conflicts that are imposed on us. Much like the original Christians who called people to worship the One and Only True God that were fed to the lions, it seems all too appearent to me that in this selfish and secular period of humanity the Muslims are now the ones being dismissed as fundamentalists in need of being fed to the lions... and frankly we're not prepared to lay down and die. And so, there're many issues that some of us (like myself) feel very strongly about. Unfortunately, unlike the Glorious Qur'an, these issues are not cut n' dry but rather complex issues that are only unravelled through effort, time, reasoning, and reflection - by Allah's will, of course. =)

Regarding your situation: I am everytime sorry to hear of the painful struggles that new Muslims have to go through in order to restore divine balance in their lives. My wife still has difficulties with her parents and family, but not nearly as bad as they were to start - Alhamdulilah! Do not despair, though - Our Lord is indeed very merciful, and if the love and understanding between your husband and you are both strong, there is always the opppourtunity that Allah will guide his heart to concidering the facts; to concidering Islam. It might not be an ideal situation, but I've found that anything worth having is worth struggling for. May He send the angels to ease the pain in your heart, and to comfort the mental turmoil in their soft embrace - Ameen. =)