Being muslim..

[Karima80]

:salam2:
I have wondered, are you automatically muslim if you be born by muslim parents or father. Or does you qualify when you say the shahadah?
I think I read/hear that you aren't judge by your doings when you are under 13 or when you still is a child. Is this correct?

What I wonder is in other religion you need to confirm your belief when you be around 13-15. Like confirmation. So is it a correspondingly way in islam?

 

[samiha]

wa alaykum salam

Everyone is born with the natural fitrah of monotheism. Therefore EVERYONE is BORN a Muslim. It's just what their parents later raise them to be and believe that changes them for who they are.

That's why many people like to say they "reverted" back to Islam, rather than "converted"

You aren't judged by your actions in three conditions, I'll find them insha'allah... but yes, being under puberty is one of them...

Aisha [may Allah be pleased with her] said that the Prophet [peace be upon him] said the following:

رفع القلم عن ثلاث ، عن النائم حتى يستيقظ ، وعن الصغير حتى يكبر ، وعن المجنون حتى يعقل ، أو يفيق


"The pen has been lifted from three; The sleeping until he awakens, the young until he grows up and the insane until he's sane or awakens."

[Collected by An-Nisaa'i and authenticated as Saheeh [authentic] by Muhammad Nasiruddeen Al-Albani in Sahih Sunan An-Nisaa'i, hadith no. 3432, Volume 2, page 478. Published by Al-Ma'aarif Bookstore for Publishing and Distribution, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, the First Edition of the New Edition 1419 AH - 1998 AD. Also collected by Ibn Majah and authenticated as Saheeh [authentic] by Muhammad Nasiruddeen Al-Albani in Sahih Sunan Ibn Majah, hadith no. 1673, Volume 2, pages 177-178. Published by Al-Ma'aarif Bookstore for Publishing and Distribution, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, the First Edition of the New Edition 1417 AH - 1997 AD. The translation was done by brother Bluegazer jazaak ]

No, you don't need to confirm anything. You are accountable for your sins and your actions then, but there's no big ritual or anything that changes in a form of reconfirmation, because that's like doubting your own faith isn't it?

wasalam

 

[Libinette]

the second one is; if you're mentally ill or handicaped you're not judged for your actions but i forgot the third one, inshallah someone will post it

 

[Libinette]

Aisha [may Allah be pleased with her] said that the Prophet [peace be upon him] said the following:

رفع القلم عن ثلاث ، عن النائم حتى يستيقظ ، وعن الصغير حتى يكبر ، وعن المجنون حتى يعقل ، أو يفيق


"The pen has been lifted from three; The sleeping until he awakens, the young until he grows up and the insane until he's sane or awakens."

[Collected by An-Nisaa'i and authenticated as Saheeh [authentic] by Muhammad Nasiruddeen Al-Albani in Sahih Sunan An-Nisaa'i, hadith no. 3432, Volume 2, page 478. Published by Al-Ma'aarif Bookstore for Publishing and Distribution, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, the First Edition of the New Edition 1419 AH - 1998 AD. Also collected by Ibn Majah and authenticated as Saheeh [authentic] by Muhammad Nasiruddeen Al-Albani in Sahih Sunan Ibn Majah, hadith no. 1673, Volume 2, pages 177-178. Published by Al-Ma'aarif Bookstore for Publishing and Distribution, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, the First Edition of the New Edition 1417 AH - 1997 AD. The translation was done by brother Bluegazer jazaak ]



wasalam

There you go, Jazakiallah Kheir sis

 

[Al-Kashmiri]

One is born a Muslim regardless of what their parents are upon. There occurs a hadeeth in which Muhammad sal-Allaahu `alayhi wasallam said that every child is born up Islam and the fitrah (natural disposition), and that it is ones parents that makes them a Christian, Jew or Magian. As for those who were brought up as non-Muslims, then the shahadah determines their belief. You are correct in saying that a child is unaccountable, but I don't know about the age of 13.

What I perceived/understood is that their account begins when they reach the stage of puberty (baaligh) so they either 1)develop hair under the arms or private area, 2)they emit seminal fluid when they are awake of asleep, 3)they've reached the age of 15 or 4)in the case of females, their menses begin. This is how Shaykh `Uthaymeen, rahimahullaah defined a baaligh.

 

[Al-Kashmiri]

That happens automatically the minute you perform your first prayer! Because you utter the shahada at the end of the prayer (at Juloos saying the Tahiyyaat)

So long as the person says it, and believes it with the correct knowledge of it. If one merely says it, knows it's meaning without its implications then I don't see how that would work. For a good look into this, check out Shaykh Al-Albaanee's "Tawheed First! O Calles to Islaam".

Let's remember that the shahadah, with it are attached conditions. As the people know, when conditions are attached, it means that they must be met in order for that very thing to be valid. For example, a condition for Salaah to be accepted is wudu.

 

[Sister N]

Bismillah

Assalaamu alaikum.

When your born, you're not born a Muslim, you're born with the fitra. Some people wrongly interpret this as 'being born a Muslim', that's not what it means. Being born in the state of fitrah is being born in a way where you are able to recieve the prophetic message, the true way of life, etc. That's what fitrah is. It is then the parents/carers, etc that teach you about their beleifs e.g. Islam, Christianity, Judaism, etc.

You are only judged for your actions/deeds, etc when you are a mukallaf (an accountable person). An accountable person is one who is 1)Sane, 2)Pubercent and 3)Has heard the dawah to Islam. If one of these three things is missing, then one is not an accountable person. For example, if a person was sane and has reached puberty, BUT has not ever heard about Islam or our beliefs, etc (maybe they live in a far away place where nobody is around e.g. the jungle!) then they are not accountable because they have to have all three things to be accountable for their actions/deeds. Another example is that someone is sane and has heard about Islam, but is only very young i.e. hasn't reached puberty yet, then they are not accountable because again, they have to be all three to be accountable.

 

[Al-Kashmiri]

Bismillah

Assalaamu alaikum.

When your born, you're not born a Muslim, you're born with the fitra. Some people wrongly interpret this as 'being born a Muslim', that's not what it means. Being born in the state of fitrah is being born in a way where you are able to recieve the prophetic message, the true way of life, etc. That's what fitrah is. It is then the parents/carers, etc that teach you about their beleifs e.g. Islam, Christianity, Judaism, etc.

You are only judged for your actions/deeds, etc when you are a mukallaf (an accountable person). An accountable person is one who is 1)Sane, 2)Pubercent and 3)Has heard the dawah to Islam. If one of these three things is missing, then one is not an accountable person. For example, if a person was sane and has reached puberty, BUT has not ever heard about Islam or our beliefs, etc (maybe they live in a far away place where nobody is around e.g. the jungle!) then they are not accountable because they have to have all three things to be accountable for their actions/deeds. Another example is that someone is sane and has heard about Islam, but is only very young i.e. hasn't reached puberty yet, then they are not accountable because again, they have to be all three to be accountable.

But isn't part of being on the fitrah being Muslim? For your first statement, please show me a daleel that you're not born Muslim. Or the difference between being a Muslim and being upon the fitrah.

Jazaakillaah khayran.

 

[Sister N]

To be honest, I don't really know what to show you. This is what I have learnt from certain shaykhs. I also read it in Shaykh Hamza Yusuf's book "Purification of the heart".

But, can you please show me evidence of fitrah meaning being a Muslim, I'd like to know where people are getting this idea from.

Jazakallah khair.

Wassalaam.

 

[Al-Kashmiri]

To be honest, I don't really know what to show you. This is what I have learnt from certain shaykhs. I also read it in Shaykh Hamza Yusuf's book "Purification of the heart".

But, can you please show me evidence of fitrah meaning being a Muslim, I'd like to know where people are getting this idea from.

Jazakallah khair.

Wassalaam.

Baarak Allaah feeki. To be honest I wouldn't take a statement of that man, reasons which are for another place and time. I'll look into it tonight inshaa' Allaah.

 

[Sister N]

I most definite;y have to disagree with you. People like Hamza Yusuf or the best scholars around these days. I think the sources you learn from are going to be totally different from where I learn from, so I'd like to stop here insha allah.

 

[Al-Kashmiri]

I most definite;y have to disagree with you. People like Hamza Yusuf or the best scholars around these days. I think the sources you learn from are going to be totally different from where I learn from, so I'd like to stop here insha allah.

This is a verse which can be used as a proof,

“So set you your face towards the religion (of pure Islamic Monotheism) as a Haneef (worship none but Allaah Alone). Allaah’s Fitrah (i.e. Allaah’s Islamic Monotheism) with which He has created mankind. No change let there be in Khalq‑illaah (i.e. the religion of Allaah Islamic Monotheism), that is the straight religion, but most of men know not” [al-Room 30:30]

It was narrated from Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him) that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Every child is born in a state of fitrah (the natural state of man, i.e., Islam), then his parents make him into a Jew or a Christian or a Magian.” (Agreed upon).

The correct view is that what is meant by fitrah is the religion of Islam, as stated in the hadeeth narrated by Muslim from the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), who said: “Allaah said: ‘I created My slaves as haneefs (believers in pure monotheism), then the Shaytaan misled them from their religion; he forbade them what I had permitted to them and commanded them to associate others with Me for which I had not sent down any authority.’”​

I think the latter hadeeth makes it as clear as the sun is in the sky, and Allaah knows best. I'm thinking of the `Arabic of the verse I quoted earlier, and to me it only indicates this same understanding. Likewise, the ahadeeth, especially the second make the matter clear. If Hamza Yusuf explains it other than this, then Allaah's refuge is sought, since Hanafiyyah, the way of Ibraheem is none other than Islaam. The above is from a fatwa given by Shaykh `Abdur-Rahmaan Al-Barraak.

 

[Sister N]

My reply doesn't seem to have gone through.

Anyway, I would have to totally disagree with you on that, Hamza Yusuf is probably one of the best scholars around these days.

 

[Sister N]

Just realised that my post did go through...silly me!

The fitrah is to be able to receive the message of Islam (Yes), but that doesn't mean we are born Muslim (these things have to be learnt!) Religion has to be learnt and then practiced, it doesn't just happen.

 

[Al-Kashmiri]

My reply doesn't seem to have gone through.

Anyway, I would have to totally disagree with you on that, Hamza Yusuf is probably one of the best scholars around these days.

It went through sister, however what "Allaah said" and the "Messenger said" is far better than what "Hamza Yusuf" said. If it doesn't benefit you (my post since you wish to stop), then it benefits the others namely the one who asked the questions. Instead of looking to the opinions of lay men and women like you and me, he/she (the initial poster) and others besides him/her can benefit from the Qur'aan and Sunnah, which weighs far more than Hamza Yusuf's statements. Allaah makes it clear in the above verse that The way is the way of the deen, haneef. Then He says that it's the fitrah of which He created us on.

EDIT: Alhamdulillah, but sister, Allaah says we were created upon that way. There is a difference between being a Muslim and knowing the religion. Mind you I also checked Ibn Kathir's Tafsir, I doubt Hamza Yusuf has a problem with him. And the fatwa earlier seems to be structured to what Ibn Kathir said about the verse.

 

[Sister N]

Ok, seriously, what are you talking about...?

We all follow the Quran and Sunnah (including Hamza Yusuf), otherwise how can we call ourselves Muslims?

Why do you have a problem with him?

 

[Al-Kashmiri]

Ok, seriously, what are you talking about...?

We all follow the Quran and Sunnah (including Hamza Yusuf), otherwise how can we call ourselves Muslims?

Why do you have a problem with him?

I said "I dont think he has a problem with him" in case you were ignorant of who Ibn Kathir is, that was the intent. What I mean is in case you had doubts about taking from Ibn Kathir (if you were ignorant of him), I mentioned what I understand of Hamza Yusuf and his position with regards to Ibn Kathir. I didn't mean nothing more than that.

And as for before, the intent was that the Qur'aan and Sunnah are far greater sources to take from then the shuyookh. And that Hamza Yusuf's view opposes that which is apparent (The Qur'aan, Sunnah and Books of Tafsir as well as the statements of scholars are my sources here). So unless there is genuine differing over this matter, then it seems he has erred. That is what I meant.

 

[Sister N]

I know you said "I dont think he has a problem with him", but I was asking You why do you have a problem with Hamza Yusuf?

And about the Quran and Sunnah, of course the Quran and sunnah are what we follow, but we can't blatantly try and understand it if we have no knowledge. We have to learn our knowledge from authorised scholars, are we better than them. I'm not saying we neglect the Quran and Sunnah. I really don't think you understand what I mean, I'm sorry if I've offended you in any way, but I don't know how else to explain it.

Our knowledge needs to be learnt from someone who really knows the knowledge of the Quran and Sunnah. We can't just say I follow the quran and sunnah and that's it. We need to be taught it by the authentic shuyookh, don't we?

Wassalaam.

 

[Al-Kashmiri]

I know you said "I dont think he has a problem with him", but I was asking You why do you have a problem with Hamza Yusuf?

And about the Quran and Sunnah, of course the Quran and Sunnah are what we follow, but we can't blatantly try and understand it if we have no knowledge. We have to learn our knowledge from authorised scholars, are we better than them. I'm not saying we neglect the Quran and Sunnah. I really don't think you understand what I mean, I'm sorry if I've offended you in any way, but I don't know how else to explain it.

Our knowledge needs to be learnt from someone who really knows the knowledge of the Quran and Sunnah. We can't just say I follow the quran and sunnah and that's it. We need to be taught it by the authentic shuyookh, don't we?

Wassalaam.

No you haven't offended me, thanks for the apology anyway. I didn't say neglect the scholars, I said that their explanations come after the Qur'aan and Sunnah. I recognise that they are the inheritors of the prophet. In fact the very post indicated as such when I said that his statement is in contrast to what is in the Qur'aan, Sunnah, books of tafseer and opinion of other shuyookh/scholars. Like i said, my response came from The Qur'aan, with the tafsir of Ibn Kathir (a scholar), with some ahadeeth and the fatwa of a Shaykh who is known.

As for Hamza, then I don't want this thread to be a discussion about him, but I have a problem with his extreme sufiyyah, since it is from the way of ahl-ul bid`ah and not ahl us-sunnah (Ibn Taymiyyah categorises the different levels of the people of tawassuf in his Majmoo` Al-Fataawaa, from what I read in there, Hamza and his likes a clearly those from the category of Ahl-ul-Bid`ah!). What amazes me is that even some of the Qadari Sufis in Syria opppose him for this (I know of some), one of them even called him Hamza "Useless".

Another factor is due to him calling the Dajjaal a "system", not taking it literally based upon the pure sunnah. He further said that the US government (and Kuffaar governments in general) is that very system. However, some time later, he becomes President Bush's Islamic advisor?!

I have read bits of refutations on him by others. Anyway more importantly, I don't see the need for him, he is a minor compared to the true `ullema of ahl us-sunnah. We were commanded not to take knowledge from the lesser ones, but rather the greater ones. And I don't think Hamza would fall in that latter, praiseworthy category.

 

[Mohsin]

Assalamu-alaikum

:salam2:
Akhi and Ukhti dont worry you both are correct i think its just that you two are looking at things differently. I think sister is correct cuz to me fitrah or haneef here means simple monotheism and that people are born monotheists and with a tendency to follow the will of God and this is the base of Islam and Islam as a way of leading life is to be learned as sister said. We are not born learned. We gradually learn the deen but the basic monotheism and the belief in oneness of God is there from birth. Fitrah doesnt tell you how to perform salaah and how much zakaat you have to pay and how to fast, which month etc. etc. All this you learn gradually

Take care,
Ma'assalaam