Hello

Cariad

Junior Member
Assallamu alaikim brother Peter:
We (muslems) believe that the Old Testament is not exactly the Torah that was sent to prophet Musa alaihi alsalam ( peace be upon him), . It was changed by old people . Still there is agreement between Old Testament, New Testament and Quran in some parts, which I believe all from Allah subhanahu wa taaala.
I suggest that we concentrate on the islamic creed and morality . Islamic laws need some skill in tafseer, knoweldge of hadith and very good in arabic ( by the way not any arabic person have good skill in arabic : arabic should be studied ) , I think we should examine the opinions of the scholars concerning islamic Laws and see for ourselves.
Islamic creed gives logical correct answers to big questions humanity have. Islam put sincere pure faith in our creator. Islam make our personality quiet , stable, thankful, patient , peaceful and sincere by knowing Allah and his beautiful names ( the one who created us). When light and love of Allah settle in our hearts our attitude towards all that is around us will be balanced . This need a good practice by prayers ,( sincere ones).

With regards.
My dear, the Old Testament was never just the Torah. The Torah is only a small section of the Old Testament... Only 5 books out of 39 (or 46 for Catholics) ;) the Torah we have now is the same Torah that was given to Moses and was the same Torah that was in use at the time of your Prophet. The New Testament was not sent to "agree" with the Old Testament but to fulfil its message. The New Testament contains some teachings of the Old Testament because those teachings are for mankind for all time, like the Ten Commandments that God gave to Moses.

So you can give good advice about Islam because this is what you know, but it is not good practice to say the Bible is changed or corrupted without evidence to prove it is. This implies God would not protect His word from His creation which is very wrong and illogical. It's not enough to say that bits of the Bible (that doesn't agree with Qur'an) is changed but the rest is ok. You need to look at what is different and what are the consequences to Gods original revelations in the previous scriptures and the difference these make to mankind. That is what I have been doing in my time here. It's been an interesting journey of discovery.

Peace to you... Btw, you may not know much about Biblical scripture but I do think your knowledge of Islam is excellent and your patience and kindness in answering questions is always apparent. Keep doing what you do best. Keep God in your heart. :)
 

Peter_502

Junior Member
Assallamu alaikim brother Peter:
We (muslems) believe that the Old Testament is not exactly the Torah that was sent to prophet Musa alaihi alsalam ( peace be upon him), . It was changed by old people . Still there is agreement between Old Testament, New Testament and Quran in some parts, which I believe all from Allah subhanahu wa taaala.
I suggest that we concentrate on the islamic creed and morality . Islamic laws need some skill in tafseer, knoweldge of hadith and very good in arabic ( by the way not any arabic person have good skill in arabic : arabic should be studied ) , I think we should examine the opinions of the scholars concerning islamic Laws and see for ourselves.
Islamic creed gives logical correct answers to big questions humanity have. Islam put sincere pure faith in our creator. Islam make our personality quiet , stable, thankful, patient , peaceful and sincere by knowing Allah and his beautiful names ( the one who created us). When light and love of Allah settle in our hearts our attitude towards all that is around us will be balanced . This need a good practice by prayers ,( sincere ones).

With regards.
Hello my friend, and thank you for the response.
I know Islam teaches they were corrupted, and I actually have no problem believing that to be the case.
In addition to reading the Quran again, I am also checking out the hadiths and looking at tafsir of things I don't understand.
 

Peter_502

Junior Member
It's nice to take the time for response.. I thought you may have been Catholic for what you said about believing Bible to be word of God :) because most christians would say the Bible is the inspired work of God which is not the same as being the direct word of God as Islam claims for Qur'an, you are right many catholic teachings are not Biblical. Did you know for centuries church kept the Bible from the common people and they only knew about christianity from what the church taught them. A great many people faced persecution and died cruel deaths to bring Gods word to the common people because Gods word is for all people and easy to understand. I believe it was Gods will this happened. Because Yeshua said none can change word of God so God will always provide a way for His word to remain in mankind's hearts where it was always meant to be.

Maybe you should read more fully and not simply accept where there are errors on the say so of another. Because many errors, mistakes or contradictions are usually based on misunderstanding and I notice often muslims fail to see Bible verses in context. God does not send contradiction in His revelation, which means His message meant for mankind is consistent, which it is in the Bible. It's important to see the Old Testament as the unfolding of Gods plan and we see that in all the prophets who were all types or shadows of Yeshua to come. It is also a history of Gods people and we take important lessons from this. The Gospels are the fulfilment of Gods revelation as Yeshua, who I believe to be Gods word made flesh, fulfils Gods promise and we are born again into the New Covenant... If we choose of course :)

I don't believe God sent any "religion" Judaism, Christianity or even Islam. Because God is bigger than religion and He shows He wants communion with His creation. ALL of His creation. It seems that mankind has taken this simple concept and made it into something difficult and wrapped it up with lots of rules and regulations. When all God asks of us is we love Him with all our heart and soul and worship Him alone.

Sorry, I have written an essay that must read like a lecture or the Dead Sea scrolls :D. I am not known for few words. Apologies if I sort of sidetracked your post. I know you will get lots of good advice from Muslim members on this forum about Islam and your questions will be answered. There is no one but me speaks for Yeshua. :)

Peace and blessings to you and may the God we all love and share guide you.
Thanks Cariad for the response.
If the Bible has no errors, can I ask you to explain the verse below?

Leviticus 11:6
6 The rabbit, though it chews the cud, does not have a divided hoof; it is unclean for you.

Rabbits don't chew their cud. How could God have said such a thing?

The idea of God as shown in the Gospels- Who loves us so much that He was willing to come down and live with us and teach us and die for us- then resurrect- so that we may have salvation is a beautiful. Quite frankly, I don't know of any other religion that teaches that God would love us so much and be so selfless and wonderful...

... however, just because something sounds wonderful doesn't necessarily make it true.

If it wasn't for the errors of the Bible, I would never have stopped believing what it teaches about Jesus being God. I would love very much for it to be true. In fact I believed it was true for most of my adult life.

I wish it were true. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to be.
 

mezeren

Junior Member
Thanks for sharing. I have looked at the links. I don't know if I understand correctly, but are they saying that only the Quran is binding to folow and trustworthy but the hadiths aren't since Muslims are ordered to command messengers and not prophets?

Hi Peter,

Allah is the legislator. His massangers delivered the massage without interfering and lived according to Allah's rules. So, you can not and mustn't see any contradiction between Allah's book and the actions and sayings of his prophets. Qur'an has been preserved by Allah up to now and will be preserved till the end in its original form. We are responsible from the Book. The life and sayings of Muhammad(a.s.) sets us the perfect example. But, his words have not been reached us like the way the verses of Quran have. We need the authority of the Book to decide the authenticity of His sayings. The methods of hadith scholars did not include this, unfortunately. That is why, there had been rulings that contradicts Qur'an as i mentioned earlier.

Please, read the links below about the terms massanger and prophet;

http://www.islamandquran.org/resear...rding-to-the-quran-and-traditional-islam.html
http://www.islamandquran.org/research/duty-of-the-messenger-in-terms-of-making-clear.html
http://www.islamandquran.org/research/the-book-and-the-wisdom.html
 

mezeren

Junior Member
Salaam alaikum.

I think tradition states that the stoning to death part is for married adulterers and the single ones get the lash.

Alaykum Salam Peter,

There is no difference in the verse for married or single.

“Flog each of them, the adulterer and the adulteress, hundred stripes. If you believe in Allah and in the Last Day, don’t be tender to them when you perform the order of Allah. Let a party of the believers testify with their own eyes this punishment.” (An-Noor/ The Light 24:2)



Why would Muhammad judge by what the Torah says, though? There are many mistakes in it. I find the theory interesting that the stoning that he ordered to be carried out was abrogated by whipping.

That is an opinion which tries to harmonise hadiths with the verse, i think. You might agree or disagree with this part. But, what we can't do is that while there is a clear verse on the matter, we can not take the narrations to reach a verdict.

Where does the verse say that slavery is banned?

Thanks for the link, I looked at it. On which page is the English part, please? Wasn't able to find it. Thank you and God bless.

OK, i got the link for you. It is in another pdf book which is in English. Chapter 16 is what you need to look up;

http://www.alirizademircan.net/dokuman/Ali_Riza_DEMiRCAN_iNGiLiZCE_cinsel_hayat_1447754412.pdf
 

Cariad

Junior Member
Thanks Cariad for the response.
If the Bible has no errors, can I ask you to explain the verse below?

Leviticus 11:6
6 The rabbit, though it chews the cud, does not have a divided hoof; it is unclean for you.

Rabbits don't chew their cud. How could God have said such a thing?

The idea of God as shown in the Gospels- Who loves us so much that He was willing to come down and live with us and teach us and die for us- then resurrect- so that we may have salvation is a beautiful. Quite frankly, I don't know of any other religion that teaches that God would love us so much and be so selfless and wonderful...

... however, just because something sounds wonderful doesn't necessarily make it true.

If it wasn't for the errors of the Bible, I would never have stopped believing what it teaches about Jesus being God. I would love very much for it to be true. In fact I believed it was true for most of my adult life.

I wish it were true. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to be.

Dear Peter, it is not a contradiction when we apply context of time. :) we see it as contradiction by today's scientific knowledge of ruminants animals that chew the cud. What is chew the cud? To chew the cud we accept as to eat, then regurgitate and re digest (I'm not sure if regurgitate is like absolutely the correct term) but we know that food is digested more than once in the case of ruminants in different stomach compartments (four I believe) so does the rabbit and hare regurgitate and digest again? Yes it does.

So to describe rabbits chewing the cud is not incorrect. Simply stated, it is not reasonable to accuse a 3500-year-old document of error because it does not adhere to a modern man-made classification system. Consider what rabbits do. They engage in an activity called cecotrophy. Rabbits normally produce two kinds of feces, the more common hard feces as well as softer fecal pellets called cecotropes. Cecotropes are small pellets of partially digested food that are passed through the animal but are then reingested. As part of the normal digestive process, some partially digested food is concentrated in the cecum where it undergoes a degree of fermentation to form these cecotropes. They are then covered in mucin and passed through the anus. The rabbit ingests the cecotropes, which serve as a very important source of nutrition for the animal.

Is this the same as cud? In the final analysis, it is. Cud-chewing completes the digestion of partially digested food. The Hebrew word translated “chew” is the word ‘alah. With any attempt to translate one language to another, it is understood that there is often more than one meaning for a given word. A cursory glance at any Hebrew lexicon reveals that ‘alah can mean go up, ascend, climb, go up into, out of a place, depart, rise up, cause to ascend, bring up from, among others. Here it carries the implication of moving something from one place to another. So the phrase translated to English as “chew the cud” literally means something on the order of “eats that which is brought forth again.”

Also, most reference material on rabbit digestion says that the cecotrope pellet is swallowed whole and found intact in the rabbit stomach. However, experts have observed that rabbits keep the cecotrophe in the mouth for a time before swallowing. So even though the mucin membrane covering the cecotrope is not broken, the rabbit is able to knead it in its mouth before swallowing, possibly to enhance the process of redigestion.

So is the Bible in error here? No it is not. Rabbits re-ingest partially digested foods, as do modern ruminants. They just do so without the aid of multiple stomach compartments.

God always knows best. :)

Such "errors" have no baring on the central Gospel message. You are looking to the Bible when your eyes should be upon God, Yeshua showed God to us. If you wish to persuade yourself that translation issues or scribal errors etc mean the the Bible has been corrupted then that is fine and your prerogative to do so. Don't be attracted to Islam because it's believed there are no errors or contradictions in it, because are some. I have read the Qur'an and I see some plain contradictions. Muslims then tell me I simply do not understand the meaning because I am not seeing it in context, well that's ok, maybe that is so. But...then that same rule must be applied to the Bible. So such arguments do not interest me. I need to see the difference between the central message of the Bible compared to the Qur'an. That is big problem for me as the message is totally different. It's a simple thing for me God IS love, where is the greatest love shown to me from God. I know I am saved. We all have a road to travel in life and if God wants you to be a muslim then it will be so. :)

God bless and keep you.
 

a_stranger

Junior Member
Assalamu Alaykum Sister,

To understand hadith, we must understand Qur'an. Qur'an itself was revealed to the muslims through Rasulullah. We have no doubt that Qur'an is the words of Our Creator and perfect and preserved. That is why, we take its verses as our ultimate guide. Obeying the massanger means, obeying Qur'an, therefore, obeying Allah. Hadith have not been preserved like Qur'an and we can not take them into consideration without the authority of Qur'an. That is what i mean. Science is all about understanding Sunnatullah, the laws of our creator and do not cotradict His Book.

i recommend you to have a look at the links below. I think it explains the role of Rasullullah(a.s.).

http://www.islamandquran.org/research/the-book-and-the-wisdom.html
http://www.islamandquran.org/resear...rding-to-the-quran-and-traditional-islam.html
Assallamu alaikim brother
I read many articles from the link you sited. AlhamduliAllah most of it is in agreement with what I learned about Quran and Sunna . I inshAllah will discuss with you some topics , but I am not trying to insult or hurt , it is a brother and sister discussion and we are all ignorant , Allah knows best. We should learn how our great scholars differ in many issues still they loved each other for Allah's sake and treated their differences politely .
 

a_stranger

Junior Member
Brother I read this issue:

http://www.islamandquran.org/fatwas/punishment-for-rape.html

According to my study that the punishment of rape for the married man is stoning to death, if he have a weapon then it is Alhiraba. If he is unmarried then the punishment is flogging like for the adultery . I think this is more just for this ugly barbaric crime. If ignorant men know this will be their punishment then they will think twice before committing such crime.

Keeping in mind that Islam put a strict restriction on male and female contact. Islam encourage legal marriage in early ages, teaches taqwa , lowering gaze, higab for women and the most important thing feeling that Allah is watching us.
With respect.
 

a_stranger

Junior Member
For sure doors of repentance and forgiveness are widely open for all, and the punishment is to free the criminal from the hellfire on the day of judgment.
I am not a scholar but if feel such punishment is fair
 

a_stranger

Junior Member
My dear, the Old Testament was never just the Torah. The Torah is only a small section of the Old Testament... Only 5 books out of 39 (or 46 for Catholics) ;) the Torah we have now is the same Torah that was given to Moses and was the same Torah that was in use at the time of your Prophet. The New Testament was not sent to "agree" with the Old Testament but to fulfil its message. The New Testament contains some teachings of the Old Testament because those teachings are for mankind for all time, like the Ten Commandments that God gave to Moses.

So you can give good advice about Islam because this is what you know, but it is not good practice to say the Bible is changed or corrupted without evidence to prove it is. This implies God would not protect His word from His creation which is very wrong and illogical. It's not enough to say that bits of the Bible (that doesn't agree with Qur'an) is changed but the rest is ok. You need to look at what is different and what are the consequences to Gods original revelations in the previous scriptures and the difference these make to mankind. That is what I have been doing in my time here. It's been an interesting journey of discovery.

Peace to you... Btw, you may not know much about Biblical scripture but I do think your knowledge of Islam is excellent and your patience and kindness in answering questions is always apparent. Keep doing what you do best. Keep God in your heart. :)

Dear Cariad , I apologize I didn't mean any harm. I am very happy to hear from you dear. God ( Allah ) guide us all to the truth.

With deep respect.
 

mezeren

Junior Member
Assallamu alaikim brother
I read many articles from the link you sited. AlhamduliAllah most of it is in agreement with what I learned about Quran and Sunna . I inshAllah will discuss with you some topics , but I am not trying to insult or hurt , it is a brother and sister discussion and we are all ignorant , Allah knows best. We should learn how our great scholars differ in many issues still they loved each other for Allah's sake and treated their differences politely .

Wa alaykum Salam Sister,

I know your intention is pure and wouln't take your words personal. We are here to share the knowledge and learn from each other. May Allah guide us to his right way.
 

mezeren

Junior Member
Brother I read this issue:

http://www.islamandquran.org/fatwas/punishment-for-rape.html

According to my study that the punishment of rape for the married man is stoning to death, if he have a weapon then it is Alhiraba. If he is unmarried then the punishment is flogging like for the adultery . I think this is more just for this ugly barbaric crime. If ignorant men know this will be their punishment then they will think twice before committing such crime.

Keeping in mind that Islam put a strict restriction on male and female contact. Islam encourage legal marriage in early ages, teaches taqwa , lowering gaze, higab for women and the most important thing feeling that Allah is watching us.
With respect.


My Sister in Islam,

I share links from this site because, first, i agree with their approach to the Qur'an and Sunnah and second, because it is in English. I hope you read the links that i gave previously about the role of the massangers of Allah. I'll give them again below this posts. I hope you read them all.

About the fatwa you mentioned, i have to first state that i am not saying everything they say are the ultimate truth. This is the same for any scholar that they are not free from making mistakes. That is my motto.
So, they could be right or wrong. Allah knows best. But in addition to other punishments they say, second paragraph sounds good to me.

2. SURGICAL CASTRATION PUNISHMENT

Since the perpetrator has forcibly harmed an organ, which is legally and ethically forbidden to be touched, he deserves his organs being harmed. The damage caused by the perpetrator will influence the aggrieved party till the end of her life. Due to this characteristic of the crime, the punishment on the perpetrator must also be permanent. The only punishment with this characteristic is surgical castration. Therefore, punishment for rape is surgical castration.





http://www.islamandquran.org/resear...rding-to-the-quran-and-traditional-islam.html
http://www.islamandquran.org/research/duty-of-the-messenger-in-terms-of-making-clear.html
http://www.islamandquran.org/research/the-book-and-the-wisdom.html
 

a_stranger

Junior Member
Yes I read that brother, this is a good punishment but I think the rapist deserve more , yes he deserve stoning to death if he is married : rape is a horrible crime which destroy life of women , she will live with bitter memory all her life : we should do our best to stop this crime :this is just my humble opinion .
Still , Islam if understood correctly stop rape from the beginning by education , by training muslems spiritually , by building a very high noble morality in the muslem society , May Allah guide us all to values of Taqwa. Punishment is a small part of Islam , the big bright main area of Islam is purifying souls and teaching a very high morality . This what our world badly needs. May be we should never argue about punishments in Islam , but discuss how Islam can build a noble balanced personality which enjoy life in a godly pure manner. I apologize if I made any mistake and astagfur Allah li wa laka(I ask Allah forgiveness for me and you ).

Baraka Allah feek brother.
 

Cariad

Junior Member
My Sister in Islam,

I share links from this site because, first, i agree with their approach to the Qur'an and Sunnah and second, because it is in English. I hope you read the links that i gave previously about the role of the massangers of Allah. I'll give them again below this posts. I hope you read them all.

About the fatwa you mentioned, i have to first state that i am not saying everything they say are the ultimate truth. This is the same for any scholar that they are not free from making mistakes. That is my motto.
So, they could be right or wrong. Allah knows best. But in addition to other punishments they say, second paragraph sounds good to me.

2. SURGICAL CASTRATION PUNISHMENT

Since the perpetrator has forcibly harmed an organ, which is legally and ethically forbidden to be touched, he deserves his organs being harmed. The damage caused by the perpetrator will influence the aggrieved party till the end of her life. Due to this characteristic of the crime, the punishment on the perpetrator must also be permanent. The only punishment with this characteristic is surgical castration. Therefore, punishment for rape is surgical castration.





http://www.islamandquran.org/resear...rding-to-the-quran-and-traditional-islam.html
http://www.islamandquran.org/research/duty-of-the-messenger-in-terms-of-making-clear.html
http://www.islamandquran.org/research/the-book-and-the-wisdom.html
Mezeren.. Do you then believe an "eye for an eye" justice is the way to go? Is there room for forgiveness? "Eye for an Eye" is revenge justice... No?
 

Cariad

Junior Member
Yes I read that brother, this is a good punishment but I think the rapist deserve more , yes he deserve stoning to death if he is married : rape is a horrible crime which destroy life of women , she will live with bitter memory all her life : we should do our best to stop this crime :this is just my humble opinion .
Still , Islam if understood correctly stop rape from the beginning by education , by training muslems spiritually , by building a very high noble morality in the muslem society , May Allah guide us all to values of Taqwa. Punishment is a small part of Islam , the big bright main area of Islam is purifying souls and teaching a very high morality . This what our world badly needs. May be we should never argue about punishments in Islam , but discuss how Islam can build a noble balanced personality which enjoy life in a godly pure manner. I apologize if I made any mistake and astagfur Allah li wa laka(I ask Allah forgiveness for me and you ).

Baraka Allah feek brother.
Stoning a person to death will of course stop that person from committing rape again. But it will not stop the crime of rape. The only way to prevent rape is as you say through education. That is a hard task as many believe rape is sexually motivated whereas in truth it is about power. Although I don't deny sexual frustrations have a place to play in most cases.
 

Peter_502

Junior Member
Hi Cariad and Mezeren,
Thanks so much for your responses. I hope to respond within this week, God willing.

God bless you and take care.
 

mezeren

Junior Member
Mezeren.. Do you then believe an "eye for an eye" justice is the way to go? Is there room for forgiveness? "Eye for an Eye" is revenge justice... No?


O you who have believed, prescribed for you is legal retribution for those murdered - the free for the free, the slave for the slave, and the female for the female. But whoever overlooks from his brother anything, then there should be a suitable follow-up and payment to him with good conduct. This is an alleviation from your Lord and a mercy. But whoever transgresses after that will have a painful punishment.(2:178)

And there is for you in legal retribution [saving of] life, O you [people] of understanding, that you may become righteous.(2:179)


And do not kill the soul which Allah has forbidden, except by right. And whoever is killed unjustly - We have given his heir authority, but let him not exceed limits in [the matter of] taking life. Indeed, he has been supported [by the law].(17:33)


Eye for an eye is not a revenge justice, it is the absolute justice. It is to prevent killings(see the second verse;And there is for you in legal retribution [saving of] life ). The relatives of the victim has the right to demand "eye for an eye", and also they have the right to forgive the murderer with or without a payment. That is what i call justice.


 
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