Malaysia appoints 1st female Islamic court judges

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Assalaam walaikum,

In the end it was all good. I have been humbled. I learned a lot. Now..let's move on to something equally valuable.

Kayleigh..I will start a thread on your question. Let us give the brothers a break. I need to think.

Brother Ayman...thanks for determination. Must be nice to be a brainiac.

Sister Revert wow..Insha'Allah we will agree once in a blue moon. If we agreed all the time it would be boring.

Brother Al-Kashmiri...sorry about the Tarzan Jane..I still think its funny.


Pearl of Islaam
Assalamu Allaicum wa rahmatullah wa barakatuhu

I have red the most of the replys on this thread, I would not add anything new, may Allah reword you for all knowledge you have shared with us, I have learnt a loot.

MashAllah for our sisters in Islam, it is truth that this is huge responsability which they have accepted, but InshAllah Allah will help them on their way, and give them patient, strenght and reword on both worlds for all good they do for their comunity and they are very good example to all of us. Ameen

Wa Allaicumu Sallam wa rahmatullah wa barakatuhu


Pearl of Islaam
Women can wear makeup in public. It's perfume that they cannot wear.

Assalamu allaicum wa raahmatullah wa barakatuhu

Dear brother Ayman, I needed to reply as other sisters too on your post above.We should not give our own opinions which are not accordiance to Quran and Sunnah, and right Islamic teaching is that it is not alowed for Muslim women to wear make up out side of her home which may attract the atention of man, Astagfirullah. It is not for beliving women, who fears Allah to show anything which may attract the man. That is why there is order from Allah, about proper hijab for Muslim women. And Allah subhan we teala knows the best.

Here is the fatwa

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.

Dear questioner, thanks for your question and we beseech Allah to guide us all to the best both in this world and in the Hereafter.

As far as Islamic Shari`ah is concerned, a Muslim woman is allowed to wear makeup in a moderate way in the presence of her husband, mahrams (Arabic for: relatives to whom a woman cannot marry) or women-only gatherings. A woman should be keen not to be excessive in wearing makeup or spending too much money on it.

In his response to your question, Sheikh Muhammad Nur Abdullah, former president of the ISNA (Islamic Society of North America) and member of the Fiqh Council of North America, states,

Wearing makeup in general is part of zeenah or beautification, which is forbidden to be shown to non-mahrams. Therefore, a woman cannot wear makeup outside her home. But in general, a Muslim woman should be modest when she goes in public.

As for wearing makeup in her house or to beautify herself for her husband, a woman should be moderate and should not take extremes in anything. If she maintains this level of moderation, there will not be any harm in sha' Allah.


Praise be to Allah!
As-salaamu `alaykkum

Brother Ayman1, I see that you are contradicting yourself over and over again. Do you not see that your the one who is going on about "lack of evidences" in the fatwa, yet when it comes to issues related to `aqeedah, then you lack evidences. I warn you off what the scholars warn their people, that if you are going to play around with the name and attributes of Allaah, twist them, and try to make them suit your own desires... then you will be facing problems in your `Uboodiyyah.

A point will come when you will start mixing truth with baatil and this is already evident in your posts.

Do you not realize that 1) You are going against the apparent meaning of the Qur'aan

2) You are going against the understanding of the Salafus Saalih

3) You have no evidence for what you claim

With regards to appointing women as the qaadi, then 1431 years have passed, and you do not quote one classical scholar about the whole issue of appointing women as judges, and you come up and pass on a fatwa? And where did you issue this fatwa from? Your own nafs?

Just because you studied some usool and some mustalah al hadeeth does not make you a faqeeh nor muhaddith? And I ask you to reconsider your accusation about our sahaabah. You just indirectly labelled Abu Bakrah radhiAllaahu anhu as a criminal or faasiq. Firstly, majority of the scholars have agreed upon the authenticity of Saheeh Bukhaari. Secondly, it is a well established principle in Mustalah al Hadeeth, that when a sahaabi narrates something, then we take it and do not doubt the narration, even if he apostated and then returned back to Islaam and died in the state of Islaam as this is what Ibn Hajr rahimahullaah mentions in Nukhbat ul Fikr. If this is the case for the person who apostated, then your arguement about Abu Bakrah's false testimony is worthless.

And it is evident from your previous posts, how you said certain ahadeeth in saheeh bukhaari are "weak" because they show the prohibition of music, and it is evident that you are only mixing truth with falsehood, and may Allaah guide us all

Wa salaamu 'alayk


Junior Member

Our religion is perfect and comprehensive. There is no need for new interpretations of sacred texts or a major reform movement to adapt the religion to new circumstances. what our religion legislates remains applicable till the end of time. All we need to do to remain successful in this life and the hereafter is to hold on tight to the 2 things that Prophet SallAllahu Alleihi Wa Sallam left us with : the Quran and the Authentic Sunnah of our beloved Prophet SallAllahu Alleihi Wa Sallam. We need to look at our pious predecessors who were unfailing in adherence to both mentioned and keep them as source of reference and motivation.

Most of us currently on this board have not gained sufficient knowledge to pass judgements or form opinions on Islamic jurisprudence. Therefore, we should make use of the great service of our righteous scholars (May Allah have mercy on them all) and read what they have to say & accept what is accepted by the majority of them. At the same time, we need to upgrade our knowledge and learn as much as we can about various sciences in Islam. It will only increase the appreciation of the work that our scholars carry out and remove doubts and other misconceptions such as that they follow their whims or base rulings from their personal opinions solely.


True , I think that our judgments in any matter should not be reactions or just oppositions but should be based on enough knowledge in Islam.


Assalaam walaikum,

Brother Tariq...there are schools of jurisprudence within Islam that have accepted the fact women can be judges. I posted that twice and now thrice.

Please stop the warnings. Adults are responsible for their own actions. If you have exact knowledge your words would not be as harsh.

I see no good coming to this. Please let us act human and show kindness


Fear Allah
The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) said:
I guarantee a home in paradise for a person who gives up arguments and disputes even if he is on the truth.

Seeking Allah's Mercy

Qul HuwaAllahu Ahud!
The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) said:
I guarantee a home in paradise for a person who gives up arguments and disputes even if he is on the truth.

:salam2:wa rahmatullahi wabarakatuhu....

may ALLAH bless you for sharing this akhi:)jazakallah khairan.

it's important especially for this thread.since we cannot reach a point of agreement here!!

be best if it's closed's only messing things up for all.everyone has expressed there view clearly and everyone has there's useless to discuss this anymore...

my opinion:)!


Love Fishing
The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) said:
I guarantee a home in paradise for a person who gives up arguments and disputes even if he is on the truth.

Jazaka Allah khair for the reminder.Honestly I am getting bored with this thread.I do not see how the argument whether a woman can be a judge or not can help me in hereafter.Even lets say if it is permissible that a woman can be a judge.So what?I am not going to be that woman.

This thread has consumed too much of our precious time.No matter what the result is,it will never going to affect anyone or bring any benefits to anyone.We have been deviated for a long time.

We should come to realisation and stop fruitless argument.

We must focus on our true aim-prepare for death.

We might forget our true aim and focus on gender equality that has nothing to do with anyone.We are not disbelievers to gain some fame through gender equality.

It is sufficient enough Allah recognise us through our worship.We do not need anything to do with dunya and argue on something that is temporary.

I know people keep on arguing and twisting their words just for the sake of winning the "battle".This is called ego.If we are wrong,humbly accept it.If we are right,lets stop the argument as Allah is The All Knowing will judge in the end of the day.

I am a Malaysian and my country is the one appointed the female judge.So what?As a Malaysian,this stuff doesn't benefit me in any way.Why are we wasting our time in arguing and repeating more mistakes and sins?

Some of us did grave mistakes and time for repentance and next time we should be more humble in replying others and especially we should be more careful when we are talking about the hadiths and companions.

I personally did not learn anything from this thread but I did get more confuse on certain things.Alhamdulilah I am very aware of what is Islmaic and what isn't.

This is time of fitnah and lets just stop all these arguments and please never ever try to create another thread for fruitless discussion.

Allah knows the best.


Fear Allah
Yahya ibn Mu`adh al-Razi said:

"Fight against your ego with the four swords of training: eat little, sleep little, speak little, and be patient when people harm you... Then the ego will walk the paths of obedience, like a fleeing horseman in the field of battle."

A good lesson to be learnt. Whenever you're going to do something, ask yourselves if what you're about to do pleases Allah or not. Each and every time. Ask yourself.

May Allah forgive our sins and shortcomings.


slave Of Allah
And he was also human, doing the best he could, may God reward him handsomely. Humans may err despite their best efforts.

How else would you explain it, brother? Why did scholars of the past, as well as recent times, such as Al-Albaani, find many hadeeths in Al-Bukhaari and Muslim that they rated weak?

Could the reason be that he didn't know? Did he know everything there is to know? Did God or His Messenger say that there will come a man from the city of Bukhaara who will not make any mistakes? We know the Prophet, peace be upon him, himself made mistakes and God corrected him, so why is it unbelievable that a distinguished scholar may make them?

Imam Bukhari put a title for each chapter of his Sahih. These titles include much of his Fiqh.

After the title, he listed the Hadeeths which he wants to include as authentic, Overall, the main hadeethes in shaeh albukharia are without any doubt saheh.

Sometimes, however, he included within the title Ahadeeth which do not reach the level of authenticity of the main Hadeeths of his Sahih. Such Hadeeths are not considered a part of his authentic collection. They are just to clarify the title further.


Assalaam walaikum,

This thread was good in the sense we had serious discussion. We were able to research and share information. We had misconceptions. I pray many were unsettled. We live in the here and now. We prepare for the afterlife but while we are here we must endeavor to know the Absolute.

It is time to move on.


Well-Known Member
Staff member
As-salaamu `alaykum

It's a metaphor, a figure of speech. The Arabs use metaphors all the time. You probably noticed that after reading their poetry. Exegesis books have pointed that out too about the Quran in abundance.

Just like the Mu`tazilah and Jahmiyyah said about Allaah's laughter? "It is like the Arabs say, 'the Earth laughed with plants' ... [meaning] 'to bring out'" In response Ibn Qutaybah Ad-Deenawaree noticed and commented, "If the laughter which they fled from is tashbeeh, then within these meanings is also tashbeeh!"

Why? Because when you attach these metaphors, that which you flee from (tashbeeh, tamtheel) you fall into regardless, since you make similitude between the attributes (or metaphors) with the creation!?

And Ad-Daarimee said: "Then you (O Jahmi) did not suffice with this false interpretation until you claimed that a people from Ahl us-Sunnah interpreted Allaah's laughter according to what their minds from their own selves thought. This is a lie against them, for we have not heard of any of them comparing the Actions of Allaah with the actions of the creation. However, we say that He laughs as He wills in accordance to what befits Him, while your tafseer is to be discarded."

He also said: "It is not permissible to make ijtihaad with opinions in regards to many of the obligatory actions and rulings that we see with our eyes and hear with our ears, then how can it be allowed in regards to th Attributes of Allaah which eyes neither see nor can be compreheneded by thoughts."

I highlighted in red why what Maalik said shows it's a figure of speech. Attributes in any language are either actual or figurative. If they are not actual then they are figurative. I'm sure you agree that God does not sit on something, because that would mean He ends where the seat begins, God forbid! Therefore, the only option left available is that it's a figure of speech.

Akhi Al-Kareem, the same goes here, do you realise what you've stated? You have concluded that "...Istawaa `alaa Al-`Arsh..." entails sitting, and sitting entails He ends where the seat begins, so you've already likened Allaah to the creation in your head. The matter is clear. You try to flee from tashbeeh and the filth of the mujassimah, but in the process, you first make ta`teel in removing the actual attributes from their places, make ta'weel, interpreting the meanings as being metaphorical, but in the process, draw a similitude with your metaphors and the creation, so you're back at tashbeeh? So putting it straight, to avoid tashbeeh, you go from ta'teel to ta'weel and end up with tashbeeh.

How easy would've it been to take the middle path as you suggested. To simply agree with the Sahabah and Salaf, and say, "We believe in the attributes, in a manner befitting His majesty." and leave it at that. And not try to explain everything as if you or any one of us at that, would ever have such a capability.

Moreover, with the specific issue at hand, At-Talamankee said: "Allaah's establishment over His Throne is real (`alaa al-haqeeqah) and not metaphorical/allegorical (laa `alaa al-majaaz)."

God says in the famous Qudsi hadeeth, "My worshiper keeps coming close to Me until I love him. When I love him, I become his eyes with which he sees, his ears with which he hears, his hand with which he reaches and his legs with which he ventures."

Are those actual transformations or figures of speech?

There is a major difference that you seem to have overlooked with respect to this narration. This is with regards to the humans eyes, ears, hands and legs. So how can there be qiyaas with this narration and those specifically about Allaah's names and attributes. We are talking about Allaah's attributes, not our own which are apart of us.

Deny? How did you get deny? How can one deny what God said about himself? The Jahmiyya denied the attributes of God. I hope you're not accusing me of doing the same.

`Abdullaah Ibn Imaam Ahmad mentioned in As-Sunnah: "... I heard Yazeed bin Haaroon and it was said to him: "Who are the Jahmiyyah?" He replied, "Whover claims that Allaah is Established over the Throne in a manner that opposes what has been affirmed by the hearts of the generality is a Jahmi""

None of these are accusations, but I'm simply trying to present the correct `aqeedah with regards to Allaahs' names and attributes. This is no attack, just something I sincerely hope you'll benefit from.

When God says that He scuttles toward the believer, do you take that literally or figuratively? When He says that He descends to the first heaven, is that actual or is it a figure of speech?

Literal. But literal doesn't entail likeness to the creation (and as stated, thinking that it would imply likeness, is such obvious tashbeeh). As Ad-Daarimee himself said regarding those who labeled the body of Muslims for taking the attributes literally, as mujassimah, he said, "...then in your claim Allaah Himself would be the first of those who are Mushabbihah."

Ibn Battah, the noted Hanbali jurist said: "The Mu'attil says "If we say He descends then we are saying that He comes down, and Allaah does not come down, and if He was to descened then He would go down because everything that descends is that which goes down."

We say: Are you not those who claim you negate tashbeeh from the Lord of the Worlds? Yet here, with this speech, you have made the vilest form of tashbeeh. The much worse difference is that you have rejected the narrations and denied the ahaadeeth of the Messenger of Allaah (sall Allaahu `alayhi wasallam) and what he said. If you say that He does not descend except by "coming down" then you have compared Allaah to His creation And you have claimed that He is unable to descend without coming down in the description of the creation, which if in a place is in need of that place. Rather, we believe our Prophet (sall Allaahu `alayhi wasallam) when he said: "Our Lord descends" and we don not say: "He goes down" rather He descends how He wills and we do not describe this as His coming down (as creation does) and we do not ascribe a limit to Him and we do not say "His descent is His going down.""

God knows that we cannot comprehend Him, so out of His grace, He used figures of speech familiar to us in our language to tell us about Himself. That does not mean they are actual descriptions, which the Mumaththila and the Mujassima believed, nor that they are void like the Jahmiyya believed. Both are extremes. The right course is always the middle between extremes.

Wrong, the Mumaththila believed them to be like the creation, they didn't simply believe they were "actual descriptions". The jamhoor of ahl us-Sunnah believed them to be actual descriptions, without such tajseem, tamtheel and tashbeeh.

If our minds are so incapable, then why does God ask us hundreds of times in the Quran the rhetorical questions, "Have you not been using your mind?" (36:62), "Could you not reason?" (21:10)

This appears to be in contradiction to when you said, "God knows that we cannot comprehend Him..." Moreover Al-Haafidh Al-Asbahaanee mentioned: "It is only necessary for the servants to submit because neither an Angel nor a Prophet knows the attributes except by the names that the Lord taught them. Neither the intellects nor analogies can comprehend Allaah's attributes, so the path is to affirm the understanding of His attributes by following and submitting."


Staff member
Assalaam walaikum,

This thread was good in the sense we had serious discussion. We were able to research and share information. We had misconceptions. I pray many were unsettled. We live in the here and now. We prepare for the afterlife but while we are here we must endeavor to know the Absolute.

It is time to move on.

wa alaykum salam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh

Yes, indeed, thank you sister. I am going to close this thread, now inshaAllah. I was asked to make some final comments, so here it is, inshaAllah.

Whilst this topic has created many many replies we should not be giving our own personal opinions, and especially we should not hold anything in our hearts against any of our brothers or sisters.

When a person puts forth a fatwa, which is based upon Islamic precdent and rulings derived from the Quran and Sunnah and from respected scholars of Ahlus Sunnah, it should be respected, rather than nitpicked and any person haranged.

Also, it needs to be noted that there are scholarly differences, as well as cultural differences. So, its also not good to simply be stubborn on a point without reflecting on whether there may exist other valid scholarly opinions and differing situations. This is for both sides of this argument to reflect upon.

I spoke to an Islamic judge and he answered that it may not be haram for a woman to be a judge, but according to the situation, it certainly brings about some practical issues and difficulties, which can be compromising for a Muslim woman. For example, having to meet with non-mahram men on regular basis and perhaps seclusion, having to raise her voice and argue with men etc

I really do not wish to prolong this debate, but, people do need to take a step back to realise that maybe their way of viewing things is skewed from their own cultural background or understanding. Not just viewing this particular topic of female judges, but in a wider context.

You can reflect on various jobs which are of a physical nature -- and it takes a few more steps to realise that there are other tasks which may not be physical, but are better catered for by men, than women. - This is not to say it is impossible, but simply something that one gender is better at than the other. - These differences, manifest themselves in many ways, daily, sometimes in a minute almost undetectable or intangible fashion, but, people simply do not notice.

Its part of the fitrah (natural disposition), and as much as people may wish to disguise or oppose it, it exists. This is not to mean that a man is better than a woman or vice versa!

Women in the West are often taught, that they must compete and outdo men in everything. Which is as a whole, and in general, an impossible task.

Women in Muslim countries, can often unfortunately, be taught that they are inferior to men, or are impeded from doing things which they have a right to do (such as not being forced into a marriage etc), due to the misconceptions society may have. This is a great problem which also needs to be addressed.

Although, quite often the negative side of things can be blown up out of proportions.

Different countries have Islamic scholars and ministers of Islamic affairs who have derived their outcomes from their Islamic research, cultural and specific country needs.

Islam is simple and easy, dear brothers and sisters, lets keep our discussions like so too. :) and remember, the most important details of our Deen, which are obeying Allah and His Rasul, being humble and sincere. Its not the amount of knowledge we may or may not have, but our sincerity. Its our love for Allah that we strive to try and seek our knowledge and implement it as we can. We should respect the Ulema and accept the evidences which come our way as well, rather than using our own ideas and wishes to understand things. Some matters, should be left alone too, and its of little benefit to be arguing over matters which even are not in our hands. - Ultimately, you will not be questioned on things which are not in your responsibility.

We should focus our time wisely, and nurture ourselves upon the correct knowledge, and in getting close to Allah the Most High.

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