:salam2:first of all, i hope this finds you in the best of your health inshallah,
I would kindly remind you that no one,is talking about isa As, i understand you swinging on a dichotomic pole that tends to split the world in two rather than to embrace as a whole trough your vision and mental progections ,so let me cut some ombelical cords here:wink: in order to be able to develop a thought on a much needed double critical mind,without which ,we sadly fail to embrace humanity as a whole with a spirit of concern and engagement, without on the other hand neglecting the consciousness of accountability and responsibility in all our aims and in the actions that strive to fulfill them. We have to keep ourselves balanced, choosing the path of the strangers does not require from us to dwell in an ensnaring immobility,and constant indifference now that would be really selfish from our part.the human mind is capable of doing both alhamdulillah.
Asalam alaikom,
You don't kmow me at all but assume I'm swinging on a pole..or is that you'd like to see me swinging from a pole? hmmm. I actually see the world as one and think you go too far when you make such dramatic assumptions about me and my intent. I'm sorry but your comments simply demonstrate your own lack of ability to have thoroughly understood my points. There is no personal attack levied at you at all- however you have made many assumptions and personal ones at that, based on very little. Interesting!
I suggest you get that much needed balance you refer to.
Talking about historical abuses of people long since dead will neither help the victims and apparently so I am informed we aren't meant to talk in a bad way about the deceased because they have completed their term in this life...so if we have nothing good to say, we are supposed to say nothing at all, am I wrong? Are there areas where we can ignore this Sunnah? Recommending reading History is of course fine..we should strive to learn from History after all and attempt to not repeat it.
Second,if you indirectly accuse me of backbiting, and in doing so you do exactly a similar thing than the one you aim to denounce!,well what you are doing is what i would call is snack bitting actually ,remember am not judging you but you as a person but your statement ,don t get offended please and keep that in mind inshallah, am talking to you straight without, using a third person, the double language of the incitement to guesswork ,speculation and misunderstanding to score points to make you fell bad or whatever,alhamdulillah he is my only benefactor and always will be,in the end...this is about denouncing a well known evil and not backbiting,it is a public forum for everyone to participate,where is the backbitting here,i have discussed this with some of my Christian friends and i wanted to discuss it with my Muslim brothers!if one follows this logic then talking about the Zionist actions and the US criminal war on humanity is also backbiting!don t use noble principle of Islam to neutralize Muslims,when they are meant to free them and incite them to get educated and well aware of the world sourrounding them.jazakillahu khair
I am certainly not accusing you of backbiting, but I am saying we should be
wary of doing so...however you have invented a new one (just for me?) 'snack biting?' I assure you if I have anything that would be an accusation of wrongdoing I certainly would not make it public- I would respect your dignity and privacy...
It is good to discuss in a proactive and positive manner the evils in this world, and since you have made so much time to respond to my original post perhaps you could construct a simplified statement...just a few sentences that can help everyone to understand what motivated you, what it is that you feel we as an Ummah can constructively do to be of help, and what we can do to prevent this occurring in the future... afterall when we speak of the evil it is with the intention of changing that evil if possible, and I have no doubt that there are many intelligent empowered Muslims and non-Muslims who could join forces to act for the future?
I think to be able to do something to help change the perception of governments and government bodies would be fantastic, to be able to put a people petition together that changes the way people are 'hired' in the public sector...care, religious, schools, government, civil service, hospitals, etc would be fantastic. There are child orientated organisations who do strive to lift the lid on these kind of perversions. Sadly though there are many people in 'high places' who are the perpetrators themselves and scupper any attempts to alleviate the suffering of young and vulnerable groups... sadly it is far more widespread than being restricted to either religion or children.
I am sad that you have chosen to view my response as a personal attack and you are right, there is a paranoid edge to your tone, for which there is no need. If you can make this a constructive debate and even better motivate people to become involved in a movement that helps to protect children and vulnerable groups that would be a fantastic acheivement indeed. Perhaps there are solicitors, doctors, careworkers, community project workers, barristers, community outreach workers, mental health advocates etc, etc, etc, who can network and help to construct a framewor of guidance that could be put forward as a government proposal?
It isn't good enough that this goes on and with a blind eye turned to it...but that starts right at the top of the tier, and sadly as a co-worker once stated, Barnados once ran a campaign stating that 1 in 3 children who pass you by is a victim of abuse (in all its guises) but actually the more serious message is that unfortunately the message would have been more honest and shocking if it had read '1 in 3 adults who passes you by is an abuser'.
So you see, it isn't that I view the world in a them and us mentality (which is as well since many of my family are not Muslims) nor am I uncaring for the plight of children (or adults) who suffer..it is rather that I have come across people from all walks of life and sometimes it is innocent remarks made by the well intended that have sown 'curiosity'..it is no excuse for them of course, but it does rather confirm the sayings of the Prophet about not spreading the details of evil.
Furthermore, I imagine that children can and do access this site (I did not notice any exclusions that apply to the age of visitors/members and think that sometimes you (
not as in you personally rather as a general comment) can inadvertently educate fairly young children in areas they have a right to be protected from. That isn't hiding matters..that is actually considering an age apt way of communicating harsh realities in a way that will empower and raise a guard without causing nightmares or fears or images and distress that
cause harm in themselves.
"but where did you see,rumor and speculations here,!!it is really naive of you to start by misinterpreting my intent, throwing names in my face,and then pushing me to give you an Islamic justification when you know that the burden of backing your statements actually should be laid on you!we would first of all need to agree on the definition and the understanding of terms , before using them in a random and reactionary manner ,hmm...,in this context there is no backbiting in my post.This is an open forum for all to participate. it is neither a Muslim clan nor is it a secret gathering of conspirators.here is a definition of backbiting below,
http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11447&highlight=backbitting
hmmmmm,jasakillahu khair but How can you affirm that there is sincere attention if,you accuse me of willingly making up all the numbers!!i see you are yourself doubting whether your intent should allow you to give me the benefit of the doubt or not!s there is a double doubt there in your analysis.
Backing your statements...hmmm, your statements are already out there so to speak...and backing my statements, again, if i am trying to be guided by Islam then I am also mindful that there are wisdoms there for a reason, are they not? So when I look at how easy it is to 'tread on the hima'...I feel inclined to remind others of this to, 'ewnjoin right- forbid wrong'...that is a gift for you, not an attack against you. I have read plenty about backbiting though jazak alak ghairun for the link
I challenge you to demonstrate where i accuse you of making up the numbers? That is a very bad interpretation of what i have actually said. I do not give you the benefit of the doubt... not because i doubt you
actually because it is actually a fair demand to see sources... we are supposed to actually make certain of our information before we actually then go on to inform others, even if evidence comes from a hadith it is fair comment to verify it before we either act upon it or spread it. This is a safeguard for all. All I will say about figures is this...semantics, propaganda and statistics etc are generated by people with an agenda.. and worse, many stats are generated using different math formulae and in addition to that are often based on 'samples' of population etc... so in fact I am not being doubtful of YOU at all. I hope that you will accept that no personal insult was being directed towrds yourself, but give me the right to take offence at your tone, I do recognise insult even when it is sugar coated with 'smilies' and feigned respect!
You are right,if we know something not to be true,than it is a big evil and a sin to spread it.In the contrary it is our duty to spread the truth in all forms it express itself ,even if the whole world is against us,may it be against our own interest As human beings we see both world and ourselves whether it is through our actions or form as composed opposites,conflicts,polarities.If one learns t see both world and himself genuinely and objectively,actually the opposite will emerge,through our god given intelligence and potential compassion and generosity,we would realize that the opposites ,in the creation of course are one!! but even then our perception gave us the need of calling something heartless on a non material level of course,however we found our way still!!
the ordeals of life, sadness, encountering the death of those we love, for example,facing and being witnesses of dramas , injustices and the whole theater of human tragedy take the human being back to its most natural state, to its most essential longing. Consciousness of limitation brings it back to the need for the Transcendent, to the need for meaning in the midst of the meaningless.Of order in the midst of disorder. To call on God is not to console oneself selfishly and close our eyes indifferently to the world surrounding us, it is to rediscover the condition God originally wanted for us the spark of humility, the awareness of fragility.The sense of human family driven by justice,uncompromising truth and generosity
I see where you are coming from, which in itself is a good place, however, not all of mankind has these wonderful stirrings and basic human qualities, as evidenced by situations of Palestine (which is contrary to popular notion a multi-faith country) and so on and so forth. I think nurturing the good of anyone is only a good thing to do, it is absolutely essential, we are supposed to invite to good, we are supposed to be tolerant of other faiths (excuse me but it did rather sound as though you were relating to the Catholic adherents as people who are foolish, deluded and evil...apologies if you did not intend to convey that). I read your statement of truth, compassion, generosity, intelligence etc- and can only say this... I don't feel your compassion nor generosity- actually your tone would seem rather sneering, humiliating, presumptive, subjective and levelled at me not at my statement... as for intelligence, be careful, not everyone possesses the same levels, and if they did then the media would not have such an easy task in manipulating the masses nor would the government.
Anyway, I have to be going now... I do have other things to do- needs must! But please, be careful yourself of assumptions you make...for all your intelligence, you seem to still have lacked the very qualities you expound in your address to me.
Salam Alaikom wa Rachman t'ullah wa Burrahktohu wa barak Allah feekom
Asiya
take it positive for this one inshallah,i won t go as far as to think you are actually accusing me of doubting who i should serve that is a paranoia that i can not allow myself.there is a difference between sharing a dream and reality in this case portrays a well known reality with facts, numbers and statistics!i hope you are not saying it s just a bad dream these children had!
Let me remind you that speaking and denouncing evil,is not the same thing as participating in spreading it!the first is an acknowledgment of what it is where it comes from and why ,the second should be an antagonism as to what a Muslim should be.For example if i say that Hitler was a criminal and talk about what he did,does not mean that i wanna spread his evil acts and implant my supposed shared intention with him in the hearts of the people!the same way if i speak of child abuse in the church does not mean that i wanna spread their doings.
Oh, one more thing... the comment about the children dreaming..very cheap shot! I know full well that you did not misunderstand me, and if you limit the hadith to simply relating dreams then perhaps read many more hadiths (always a good thing anyway- for all of us
) but your 'spin' on my interpretation may be accepted by some people so please, ask me to clarify don't villify me.
Also, you state what a Muslim should be, but it should be confined within the limits- and we have to find out for ourselves what those limits are, I am sure you agree. Also, please make this absolutely clear...I do not in any way shape or form accuse you of wishing to spread corruption to either Muslims or non-Muslims, however, unwittiingly, you may indeed make something stir in the minds of some, I trust that you can accept that? Furthermore, when we talk of being adherents to Islam, then etiquette demands that we are careful and mindful of the language we choose to communicate with...not speech that is complicated, too advanced..in fact simple, and make ourselves easily understood. Alhamdulillah, I understand you- rather too well.
To the one that indiscriminately speaks and stands for justice Allah swt has promised no harm.. .This is something i often discuss with my brothers and sisters,we restrict ourselves to protest and hate the injustice that is being done to our fellow brothers and sister in Palestine,Iraq,Afghanistan,in the jails of Guantanamo , abu ghraib ,Egypt,Tunisia,Algeria,Syria eastern Europe and elsewhere....but we forget to stand for justice and denounce it when other than Muslims are being harmed,whether it is in Tibet,south Africa... or like in this case as i see ,when little christian children are being traumatized with the complicity,of the church and our complicity also if we fail to denounce and shed the light on this dark deeds.We have t educate ourselves and learn to develop a global and a double-critical mind,without any circumstantial compromises,then and only then we will taste the sweet purity of this deen and deserve to be called as Muslims
I both agree and disagree with your above statement. I do believe that much of your post is common knowledge- and assume that just as people were able to use the internet for discovering TTI they also may do research in other areas too. But, I would like to draw your attention to your original comments and remind you that it appeared that the Roman Catholic faith per se was under attack rather than than abusers who have hi-jacked their religion to commit atrocious acts (a rather familiar manifestation sadly) . And, sometimes, we do need to develop compromise... this because sometimes timing and tone matter so very much.
I have already apologised to you if I read you wrong- and do so now, however, it appeared in the original comments that you were simply talking about the abuse as a 'Church' phenomena rather than seeing it as a mankind problem (I doubt any avenue of life is without this dreadful curse) much damage is done to innocent people as we are experiencing in our Ummah - precisely because people do tend to 'tar all with the same brush'. That in itself is a gross injustice. Like you, I recognise the great heroics and humanity of Muslims and non-Muslims who strive for good and against injustice- everywhere life is full of heroism.
