Something I've been thinking about

[Umair.]

As salaamu alaikum,

Before I start, I'd like to say I am a muslim and nothing will ever be able to change that insha'Allah however I am by nature someone who thinks over things a lot and questioning everything - which is encouraged in Islam anyway so I hope if I say something bad or offend anyone insha'Allah Allah s.w.t will forgive me.

Now to the thoughts I've been having...
When someone who doesn't believe in God or unsure about his existence the most concrete evidence is when you look around and see the complexities of nature and the entire universe. That's also the argument which is most commonly made with anologies such as "When you see a watch, do you think it came together in all it's complexities all by itself or an accident?". This is evidence enough however we learn that God is the first and last, the eternal, the most perfect, so obviously he created everything we see around us. I agree with the above statements but when we think of the God we believe in we know He's the most perfect, there's nothing like him or close but why then is the same argument with the watchmaker being applied here?

Surely this could mean that if the most perfect, almighty can be without any input or anything then why can't the universe follow the same logic? An atheist can easily argue with words like "Okay so the most complex being in eternity, that you believe can come to be by himself so what's wrong with just believing that the Universe which itself is pretty complex came by itself?" I'm finding it difficult to understand the different between the two statements.

Which leads me to part 2 of my question... why isn't the evidence for God's existence given clearly enough. If you're a disbeliever, surely if Allah s.w.t showed every single person (rather than messengers alone) signs or miracles or even directly speaking to each person after birth or something, which in all His glory wouldn't be the least bit difficult for Him. Surely if instead of the message being in book form - if given clearly to each person, then the person will be completely at fault for chasing after the world because they have ALL been told and shown explicitly. I live amongst disbelievers so I know what their viewpoints are to believing everything in a book because without evidence they can all be fictionary tales (not my words).

So yeah that's my thoughts and concerns which I've been pondering quite often lately and thought I'd ask on here for some discussion on BOTH topics.

 

[Perseveranze]

Firstly, your going into philosophy here, which is basically a different way of thinking about things, obviously doesn't mean it's right.

You forget that Allah(swt) is beyond the realms of time and reality. Laws that apply to the nature of this Universe do not apply to the Creator of it all, who Himself Created these laws.

"Thus, he considered that everything in this physical universe is a part of Unlimited Reality, a Supreme Creator that started it all. Since we cannot comprehend the physical universe, which should be inferior to the Unlimited Reality, then we will not be able to grasp the true power of the Supreme Creator. God, the Unlimited Reality, is the Creator of all realities. Because He is at the top of all realities, He must be absolutely Perfect and worthy of human submission, praise, and worship."

http://www.usislam.org/44mono.htm

If you really want to delve into Philosophy, I suggest you go into Islamic Philosophy.

Regarding your second question, there are many evidence of God's existence. Obviously for Muslims this is the Quran, but if you want a more broader view then you just have to look at the laws of nature, the unequivocal order in which the universe works, what caused the big bang when something cannot appear out of nothing? And since "infinite" does not exist in our reality, how can anyone say the Universe is infinite, that it's always been there and always will be there?

Watch this;

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[ipanda]

Good questions. I am like you in this area except that I just believe in God without been a Muslim or so. Been open-minded and questioning things leads you to greater knowledge and understanding.

Hope this doesn't offend anyone but I always ask my friends who are atheists to disprove the existence of God. "If you prove me that some big bang thing created the world, then I will believe you." Sadly, none of their theories makes sence (which is just copied from all those movies and books we see now and then). Looking at the complexity of the universe, our body and everything else, I don't find it hard to believe there is a superior power out there that is beyond our understanding and that is just God and nothing else.

It is quite hard to prove someone the existence of God. Often their questions are nonsense, like my best friend says "If there is God, then why do his followers suffer? Sure may be there was Isa [Jesus] at some point but he is just like any other hero who tried to save others. If God is love then why is that his followers are evil than the non-believers?" Bringing in the bible [in my case] or other means don't often help. I simply tell them "Oh well, let the Lord reveal himself to you." By the way, though their questions dont often make sense, it doesn't make them wrong at all.

 

[faaraa]

I too have come across these types of questions and more of course uff. As I am surrounded by Non Muslims many a times...

Allah knows the best...

Regarding your first question..
what's wrong with just believing that the Universe which itself is pretty complex came by itself?
First of all, we must understand that Al Qur'an is the one and only source, which can give us the definition for the terminology "Allah"

So to understand this concept of God / Allah we can easily refer to Soorah Ikhals.

Bismillahir rahmanir raheem

Say: He is Allah the One and Only;
Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
And there is none like unto Him.

So when we refer to these verse, we should realize that Allah can never lie and whatever He says is the truth no matter we understand the wisdom or not..
we must understand the last line well.... that is, we must understand that the is NOTHING like Allah Azzawajal.....
So as I said earlier, if you can believe that Allah Azzawajal says nothing but TRUTH.. then you must realize that the concept of "Not having a beginning or end " is UNIQUE to Allah alone... so you canot apply this theory to the universe....

But of the same question is put forward to you by some one who does not believe in the existence of God. then It would be nice if you can explain him the Big bang theory... I am pretty sure that no atheist in this world is denying the science...

It really works with me Alhamdullillah (Jazakallahu Khair for Dr. Zakir Naik 'coz I tried this after listening to his lecture Alhamdulilah)

Regarding the second statement which you have typed, where you said..

Surely if instead of the message being in book form - if given clearly to each person, then the person will be completely at fault for chasing after the world because they have ALL been told and shown explicitly

Well.. an interesting question and Alahmdulillah the answer is available in the Qur'an Sunmma Alahmdulillah

You see, Allah Azzawajal says in the Qur'an that

We will show them Our Signs in the universe, and in their own selves, until it becomes manifest to them that this (the Qur'ân) is the truth. Is it not sufficient in regard to your Lord that He is a Witness over all things? (41:53)

So no matter who we are, Allah Azzawajal will continue to proof the truth of this deen for each and every individuals, until we personally feel that this is the TRUTH...There is no argument in this point... Allah (SWT) may show different forms / modes of signs to different people FOR SURE no matter who we are..

So we do not wanna worry, but for the people who ask this question to you, ... it would be so nice if you can tell them about this verse and tell them for sure that "My Rabb will surely show you what is the truth before you death..."

Allah Azzawajal knows the best..
I told you what I know..
Hope we will have many other prominent answers as well Insha Allah

 

[Umair.]

Subhan'Allah at this line quoted by the sister above from the Qur'an which completely answers my second question.

We will show them Our Signs in the universe, and in their own selves, until it becomes manifest to them that this (the Qur'ân) is the truth. Is it not sufficient in regard to your Lord that He is a Witness over all things? (41:53)

However I'm still unsure about the first part, if you can say that Allah is eternal, nor does he begett nor is he begotten, no beginning or end... to a non-believer how is that any different from the universe just being there out of any cause too in the same way.

And the brother who said that Allah himself says in the Qur'an that he is nothing like things in this universe so we must believe everything He says - I don't think that's a valid argument with all respect. Consider someone denying Allah's existence, then how are they supposed to believe what Allah s.w.t said when they think it's all fiction. I myself too am completely against blind faith, I wouldn't follow anything if it totally felt like it was the truth and I'm a muslim so it doesn't work to say to someone "this is right because Allah s.w.t said so and i believe it".

 

[mhamzah]

http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=62546

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[auroran]

:salam2:

Everything has a beginning and a end, it can be weighed and measured but Allaah subhaana wa ta'aala does not have a beginning and a end, nor can He be weighed or measured because creation is like that and Allaah azza wa jal is not like his creation. People like atheist know that the universe is not eternal and it has a beginning so that argument isn't valid...

:salam2:

 

[Perseveranze]

And the brother who said that Allah himself says in the Qur'an that he is nothing like things in this universe so we must believe everything He says - I don't think that's a valid argument with all respect. Consider someone denying Allah's existence, then how are they supposed to believe what Allah s.w.t said when they think it's all fiction. I myself too am completely against blind faith, I wouldn't follow anything if it totally felt like it was the truth and I'm a muslim so it doesn't work to say to someone "this is right because Allah s.w.t said so and i believe it".

“And they say, ‘Why are not signs sent down to him
from his Lord?’ Say, ‘Indeed, the signs are with
Allah, and I am but a clear warner.’ But it is
sufficient for them that We have sent down to you
the Book [i.e., Quran] which is rehearsed to them?
Verily, in that is mercy and a reminder to people
who believe.” (Surah 29:50‐51)

You have to think about it, you either want concrete evidence which is universally acceptable or you want evidence which is enough for someone to at a certain point have faith.

Think about it for a second, what kind of test would this life be if everyone was sure of a Creator? If God literally spoke to everyone and said "you will all be judged" basically to the point where no one would have an objection that God is real, there would be no test would there?

And He it is Who has created the heavens and the earth in six Days and His Throne was on the water, that He might try you, which of you is the best in deeds. But if you were to say to them: "You shall indeed be raised up after death," those who disbelieve would be sure to say, "This is nothing but obvious magic." [Noble Quran 11:7]

O man! What has made you careless concerning your Lord, the Most Generous?Who created you, fashioned you perfectly, and gave you due proportion;In whatever form He willed, He put you together.
Nay! But you deny the Recompense (reward for good deeds and punishment for evil deeds). [Noble Quran 82:6-9]

Our greatest proof is our Quran. I would recommend you download this which highlights just a few small aspects of the Intellectual arguements for Islams cause - http://www.islambasics.com/index.php?act=download&BID=47

 

[faaraa]

However I'm still unsure about the first part, if you can say that Allah is eternal, nor does he begett nor is he begotten, no beginning or end... to a non-believer how is that any different from the universe just being there out of any cause too in the same way.

Let me come into this once again, with whatever I know, ALLAH KNOWS THE BEST..

Fine Akhi... regarding this issue...

When you read second chapter of the Qur'an, you will come to know about the perquisites which you must have , to become a Muslim...

Allah Azzawajal says in the Qur'an that

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem.

Alif Lam Mim.
This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah.
Who believe in the Unseen, are steadfast in prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them.
And who believe in the Revelation sent to thee, and sent before thy time, and (in their hearts) have the assurance of the Hereafter.
They are on (true guidance), from their Lord and it is these who will prosper. (2:1-5)

So here, to be a believer, You must have faith on the Unseen. So to believe in some of the attributes of Allah Azzawajal (like His existence ) is coming under this topic....

Our knowledge is ALWAYS limited, we can never proof every thing with logical approach always.....

For an example, you and me can never remember the days which we spent inside our mother's womb, we cant even remember the first few years we have spent in this world after our mothers gave us birth.... Can we remember??? No right? :lol:

Same way.. some types of understandings / knowledge are still kept hidden.. Subhanallah that's why Allah Azzawajal says us to have faith in the UNSEEN if we really wanna become Muslims !!! Beautiful wisdom..

But for some one who does oppose the first essential of faith (I mean the existence of God ) .... I can only bring the same verse which I have posted here already.... that is..

We will show them Our Signs in the universe, and in their own selves, until it becomes manifest to them that this (the Qur'ân) is the truth. Is it not sufficient in regard to your Lord that He is a Witness over all things? (41:53)

So basically, NO MATTER IF ALL OUR ATTEMPTS ARE ALWAYS ENDING UP WITH FAILURES when it comes to the platform of "PROVING THE EXISTENCE OF GOD" .. We should never worry.... 'coz Our duty is to proclaim the message... ALLAH is the one who guides.. and as we understand, He will continue to proof them that this is the truth forever.....

May Allah Azzawajal protect all of us Aameen

Allah Azzawajal knows the best.......

 

[Aapa]

Assalaam walaikum,

I have not read the replies so please forgive me.

Your questions stem from the need to answer an atheist. A- not theist-believing in God. Someone who uses his mind not to believe.

One arrives at belief after one seeks knowledge. You can know about an object. You can see an object. You can use your senses. Then there is the cognitive ownership of that knowledge. The knowledge makes it true or false. The final step is belief. Belief is absolute. There is no gray area. It is.

All science points to the first three seconds. All theories go blank. There is only one answer.

Atheism is in my very humble opinion arrogance. How can you deny yourself and all creation around you. You choose to be blind to your very being. You breathe the perfect air, you drink the perfect water, you eat of the perfect food that has been made for you and you have the nerve, the sheer arrogance to doubt the Creator. He who provides for all His creation, at all times. How shallow a soul you must possess.

What proof do I need that He is my Creator...I am alive. I was not born without purpose.

I strongly suggest you gain your answers from the Quran to refute the atheists.

When a disbeliever encounters a Believer it is very funny. They smell faith. They cannot argue with a Believer. In the face of Belief..disbelief becomes silent. Sometimes one can be silent.

The watchsmith analogy is ancient. It is empty. What makes it funny is the atheist is watching his life go tick tock.

 

[Umair.]

Jazak'Allah for all your answers. I believe I am more knowledged on these issues now than I was before. Thank you brothers and sisters

 

[BigAk]

When an athiest says "you can't prove the existence of God", the athiest has already skipped a very important preceding question; and that is "What does he mean when he says 'God'?"... Does he mean of God as that someone who one day rolled up his sleeves and huffed and puffed and created the earth in 7 days and then got tired; so he rested?? If that's what he means, we don't believe in that God either...

I say Let the athiest answer this question first and watch as he/she proves their original question as the dialog progresses.

p.s. I can't take credit for the above idea. I admit I stole it from Dr. Gary Miller. May Allah reward him.

.

 

[BigAk]

The statement "God exists" could not apply to God. That's because when we say something exists, this means that this something is "contained" within the created universe, and this notion makes God "created" which runs contrary to the very definition of God. Since God is the creator of this universe and not anything created, this renders the question "does God exist?" meaningless.

I don't believe Allah even talks about his existence in the Quran, but He talks about Himself over and over. This fact makes Him "REAL." Subhanah wa ta3ala.

.

 

[Just a Guy]

Even when I was an atheist, I never could get my head around the "Big Bang". There was nothing, and then suddenly there was something, and it came into being all by itself? That never made sense to me even when I was an atheist. That is how I finally came back around to believing that there is a God. That, and the fact that there is too much order in the universe for it be just a "cosmic accident".