The Truth About Talmud

[abubaseer]

The Truth About Talmud
Talmudic Doctrine: Non-Jews are not Human

The Talmud specifically defines all who are not Jews as non-human animals, and specifically dehumanises gentiles as not being descendants of Adam. We will now list some of the Talmud passages which relate to this topic:

"The Jews are called human beings, but the non-Jews are not humans. They are beasts."
Talmud: Baba mezia, 114b



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"The Akum (non-Jew) is like a dog. Yes, the scripture teaches to honour the the dog more than the non-Jew."
Ereget Raschi Erod. 22 30



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"Even though God created the non-Jew they are still animals in human form. It is not becoming for a Jew to be served by an animal. Therefore he will be served by animals in human form."
Midrasch Talpioth, p. 255, Warsaw 1855

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"A pregnant non-Jew is no better than a pregnant animal."
Coschen hamischpat 405

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"The souls of non-Jews come from impure sprits and are called pigs."
Jalkut Rubeni gadol 12b

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"Although the non-Jew has the same body structure as the Jew, they compare with the Jew like a monkey to a human."
Schene luchoth haberith, p. 250 b

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"If you eat with a Gentile, it is the same as eating with a dog."
Tosapoth, Jebamoth 94b

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"If a Jew has a non-Jewish servant or maid who dies, one should not express sympathy to the Jew. You should tell the Jew: "God will replace 'your loss', just as if one of his oxen or asses had died"."
Jore dea 377, 1

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"Sexual intercourse between Gentiles is like intercourse between animals."
Talmud Sanhedrin 74b

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"It is permitted to take the body and the life of a Gentile."
Sepher ikkarim III c 25

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"It is the law to kill anyone who denies the Torah. The Christians belong to the denying ones of the Torah."
Coschen hamischpat 425 Hagah 425. 5

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"A heretic Gentile you may kill outright with your own hands."
Talmud, Abodah Zara, 4b

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"Every Jew, who spills the blood of the godless (non-Jews), is doing the same as making a sacrifice to God."
Talmud: Bammidber raba c 21 & Jalkut 772

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How does a Jew prepare for his crime?


Moed Kattan 17a . If a Jew is tempted to do evil he should go to a city where he is not known and do the evil there.



Hitting a Jew is the same as hitting God

Sanhedrin 58b. If a heathen (gentile) hits a Jew, the gentile must be killed.



O.K. to Cheat Non-Jews

Sanhedrin 57a . A Jew need not pay a gentile ("Cuthean") the wages owed him for work.


Jews Have Superior Legal Status

Baba Kamma 37b. "If an ox of an Israelite gores an ox of a Canaanite there is no liability; but if an ox of a Canaanite gores an ox of an Israelite...the payment is to be in full."



Jews May Steal from Non-Jews

Baba Mezia 24a . If a Jew finds an object lost by a gentile ("heathen") it does not have to be returned. (Affirmed also in Baba Kamma 113b). Sanhedrin 76a. God will not spare a Jew who "marries his daughter to an old man or takes a wife for his infant son or returns a lost article to a Cuthean..."



Jews May Rob and Kill Non-Jews

Sanhedrin 57a . When a Jew murders a gentile ("Cuthean"), there will be no death penalty. What a Jew steals from a gentile he may keep.



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Baba Kamma 37b. The gentiles are outside the protection of the law and God has "exposed their money to Israel."
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Jews May Lie to Non-Jews

Baba Kamma 113a. Jews may use lies ("subterfuges") to circumvent a Gentile.



Non-Jewish Children are Sub-Human

Yebamoth 98a. All gentile children are animals.



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Abodah Zarah 36b. Gentile girls are in a state of niddah (filth) from birth.

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Abodah Zarah 22a-22b . Gentiles prefer sex with cows.
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Insults Against Blessed Mary

Sanhedrin 106a . Says Mary was a whore: "She who was the descendant of princes and governors played the harlot with carpenters." Also in footnote #2 to Shabbath 104b of the Soncino edition, it is stated that in the "uncensored" text of the Talmud it is written that Jesus mother, "Miriam the hairdresser," had sex with many men.



Horrible Blasphemy Against Jesus Christ

Gittin 57a. Says Jesus is being boiled in "hot excrement."

Sanhedrin 43a. Jesus deserved execution: "On the eve of the Passover, Yeshu (Jesus) was hanged...Do you suppose that he was one for whom a defense could be made? Was he not a Mesith (enticer)?"




Talmud Attacks Non jews beliefs

Rosh Hashanah 17a. Christians (minnim) and others who reject the Talmud will go to hell and be punished there for all generations.



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Shabbath 116a. Jews must destroy the books of the Christians, i.e. the New Testament.

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Dr. Israel Shahak of Hebrew University reports that the Israelis burned hundreds of New Testament Bibles in occupied Palestine on March 23, 1980 (cf. Jewish History, Jewish Religion, p. 21).
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Sick and Insane Teachings of the Talmud

Yebamoth 63a. States that Adam had sexual intercourse with all the animals in the Garden of Eden.



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Yebamoth 63a. Declares that agriculture is the lowest of occupations.
Sanhedrin 55b. A Jew may marry a three year old girl (specifically, three years "and a day" old).



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Sanhedrin 54b. A Jew may have sex with a child as long as the child is less than nine years old.

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Kethuboth 11b. "When a grown-up man has intercourse with a little girl it is nothing."

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Yebamoth 59b. A woman who had intercourse with a beast is eligible to marry a Jewish priest. A woman who has sex with a demon is also eligible to marry a Jewish priest.

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Abodah Zarah 17a. States that there is not a whore in the world that the Talmudic sage Rabbi Eleazar has not had sex with.

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Hagigah 27a. States that no rabbi can ever go to hell.

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Baba Mezia 59b. A rabbi debates God and defeats Him. God admits the rabbi won the debate.

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Pesahim 111a. It is forbidden for dogs, women or palm trees to pass between two men, nor may others walk between dogs, women or palm trees. Special dangers are involved if the women are menstruating or sitting at a crossroads.

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Menahoth 43b-44a. A Jewish man is obligated to say the following prayer every day: Thank you God for not making me a gentile, a woman or a slave.

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Lies of a Roman Holocaust

Here are two early "Holocaust" tales from the Talmud: Gittin 57b. Claims that four billion Jews were killed by the Romans in the city of Bethar. Gittin 58a claims that 16 million Jewish children were wrapped in scrolls and burned alive by the Romans. (Ancient demography indicates that there were not 16 million Jews in the entire world at that time, much less 16 million Jewish children or four billion Jews.... that tells us about today's modern Jew's lies about those 6 million jews killed by Nazis ?????



A Revealing Admission
Abodah Zarah 70a. The question was asked of the rabbi whether wine stolen in Pumbeditha might be used or if it was defiled, due to the fact that the thieves might have been gentiles (a gentile touching wine would make the wine unclean). The rabbi says not to worry, that the wine is permissible for Jewish use because the majority of the thieves in Pumbeditha, the place where the wine was stolen, are Jews. (Also cf. Gemara Rosh Hashanah 25b).

Genocide Advocated by the Talmud

Minor Tractates. Soferim 15, Rule 10. This is the saying of Rabbi Simon ben Yohai: Tob shebe goyyim harog ("Even the best of the gentiles should all be killed").

This passage is from the original Hebrew of the Babylonian Talmud as quoted by the 1907 Jewish Encyclopedia, published by Funk and Wagnalls and compiled by Isidore Singer, under the entry, "Gentile," (p. 617).

This original Talmud passage has been concealed in translation. The Jewish Encyclopedia states that, "...in the various versions the reading has been altered, 'The best among the Egyptians' being generally substituted." In the Soncino version: "the best of the heathens" (Minor Tractates, Soferim 41a-b].

Israelis annually take part in a national pilgrimage to the grave of Simon ben Yohai, to honor this rabbi who advocated the extermination of non-Jews. (Jewish Press, June 9, 1989, p. 56B).

On Purim, Feb. 25, 1994, Israeli army officer Baruch Goldstein, an orthodox Jew from Brooklyn, massacred 40 Palestinian civilians, including children, while they knelt in prayer in a mosque. Goldstein was a disciple of the late Brooklyn Rabbi Meir Kahane, who told CBS News that his teaching that Arabs are "dogs" is derived "from the Talmud." (CBS 60 Minutes, "Kahane").

University of Jerusalem Prof. Ehud Sprinzak described Kahane and Goldstein's philosophy: "They believe it's God's will that they commit violence against goyim, a Hebrew term for non-Jews." (NY Daily News, Feb. 26, 1994, p. 5).

Rabbi Yitzhak Ginsburg declared, "We have to recognize that Jewish blood and the blood of a goy are not the same thing." (NY Times, June 6, 1989, p.5).

Rabbi Yaacov Perrin said, "One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail." (NY Daily News, Feb. 28, 1994, p.6).

Moses Maimonides: Advocate of Extermination

"Moses Maimonides is considered the greatest codifier and philosopher in Jewish history. He is often affectionately referred to as the Rambam, after the initials of his name and title, Rabenu Moshe Ben Maimon, "Our Rabbi, Moses son of Maimon." [Maimonides' Principles, edited by Aryeh Kaplan, Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations of America,, p. 3].

Here is what Maimonides (Rambam) taught concerning saving people's lives, especially concerning saving the lives of gentiles and Christians, or even Jews who dared to deny the "divine inspiration" of the Talmud:

Maimonides, Mishnah Torah, (Moznaim Publishing Corporation, Brooklyn, New York, 1990, Chapter 10, English Translation), p. 184: "Accordingly, if we see an idolater (gentile) being swept away or drowning in the river, we should not help him. If we see that his life is in danger, we should not save him." The Hebrew text of the Feldheim 1981 edition of Mishnah Torah states this as well.

Immediately after Maimonides' admonition that it is a duty for Jews not to save a drowning or perishing gentile, he informs us of the Talmudic duty of Jews towards Goyim, and also towards Jews who deny the Talmud. Maimonides, Mishnah Torah, (Chapter 10), p. 184:

"It is a mitzvah [religious duty], however, to eradicate Jewish traitors, minnim, and apikorsim, and to cause them to descend to the pit of destruction, since they cause difficulty to the Jews and sway the people away from God, as did Jesus of Nazareth and his students, and Tzadok, Baithos, and their students. May the name of the wicked rot."

 

[Proud_2b_Muslim]

:salam2:
it is so sick and stupid that they believe that
jazak Allah khayran

 

[TheHumbleWun]

Salaam,

What sick & corrupt teachings. I had no idea. Makes you appreciate Islam because human beings are equal. Jazakallah khair for sharing.

 

[ShyHijabi]

Brother Abubaseer,

Could you please supply a link to the source so I can fact check this? I have read Talmud and have never read these passages. Fot those who are unaware, Talmud is not regarded as holy scripture but simply a compilation of philosophy of certain rabbis over a long period of time. Judging the religion off Talmud would be like judging Islam off some writings by sheiks.

Wasalaam

~Sarah

 

[Munawar]

:salam2:
Sister is right. Talmud is not the holy scriptures of Jews, Torah is.

Some zionists may prefer Talmud, but majority of Jews, specially orthodox Jews consider only Torah as their holy book.

 

[abubaseer]

Brother Abubaseer,

Could you please supply a link to the source so I can fact check this? I have read Talmud and have never read these passages. Fot those who are unaware, Talmud is not regarded as holy scripture but simply a compilation of philosophy of certain rabbis over a long period of time. Judging the religion off Talmud would be like judging Islam off some writings by sheiks.

Wasalaam

~Sarah

Sister,

That would be great!

Below is the link:

I had a couple of questions:


1. Is it true that more than half of the Jews (or half of the sects among Jews) insist on understanding the Torah **only through Talmud**?

Below are references from Jewish sources about importance of Talmud in Judaism:

Rabbi Adin Even Israel Steinsaltz is the founder of the Israel Institute for Talmudic Publications, and has enjoyed the backing of Israeli presidents and prime ministers; he is a recipient of Israel’s highest civilian honor, the Israel Prize. He is currently translating the Talmud into English, French, and Russian. He writes,

“If the Bible is the cornerstone of Judaism, then the Talmud is the central pillar, soaring up from the foundations and supporting the entire spiritual and intellectual edifice. In many ways the Talmud is the most important book in Jewish culture, the backbone of creativity and of national life. No other work has had a comparable influence on the theory and practice of Jewish life, shaping spiritual content and serving as a guide to conduct.”

[Reference: Rabbi Adin Even Israel Steinsaltz, The Essential Talmud, page 3]


Universal Jewish Encyclopedia states,

“The Talmud is undoubtedly one of the most remarkable literary productions of all times. It is an encyclopedia covering the whole scene of human life. It is almost impossible to convey to one who has not spent years in the study of this complex work an idea of its true nature, as even the most exact translations cannot catch the inner spirit of the Talmud … As a repository of the Oral Law, the Talmud’s authority is regarded as divine by Orthodox Jews, and hence it is held to be binding and immutable. Conservative and Reform Jews, however, do not recognize the absolute binding power of the Talmud, although they acknowledge the great part it has played in determining Jewish religious ideas and observances.”

[Reference: Herschel Revel, Librarian of the Isaac Elchanan Theological Seminary, New York, The Universal Jewish Encyclopedia, s.v. “Talmud,” Volume 10, page 165.]

Is it true that based on the above teachings of Talmud many Jews who believe in it donot try to save lives of non-Jews, I cite below from the book Jewish Fundamentalism in Isreal by Israel Shahak.

Which is basically a Jewish doctor who refused to treat non-Jewish patients, later on he killed (martyred InshaAllah!) 65 Muslim including children
while they were praying Fajr Salaah before he was sent to Hell by Muslims in the Masjid.

What happened afterwards is even more intresting...
-1. Instead of ctricizing what he did, most of Israeli Society (more than 50% of them) were not sorry for the innocents killed.
-2. Rather he was given honourable funeral services from Govt.
-3. A Tomb was erected around his grave.
-4. A monument was built around the tomb.
-5. Jews from Israel pay their respects to him.
-6. Thats not all, the monument of this Muderer and Racist is visited by Jews from all over the World to seek closeness to God even to this day!!!

Below is paragragh copy-pasted from book "Jewsish Fundmanentalism in Israel" by Israel Shahak

- On February 25, 1994, Baruch Goldstein entered A Masjid and shot worshippers mostly in their backs, killing 29, including children, and wounding many more.

- long before the massacre, Goldstein as an army physician repeatedly breached army discipline by refusing to treat Arabs, even those serving in the Israeli army. He was not punished, either while in active or reserve service, for his refusal.

In his March 1, 1994, Yediot Ahronot article, Arych Kizel, a regular Davar correspondent, wrote that Goldstein, shortly after immigrating to Israel and as a conscript assigned to an artillery battalion in Lebanon as a doctor, refused to treat Gentiles. According to Kizel, Goldstein, after refusing to treat a wounded Arab, declared: "I am not willing to treat any non-Jew. I recognize as legitimate only two [religious] authorities: Maimonides and Kahane." Kizel further reported:

Three Druze soldiers who served in Goldstein's battalion approached their commander and asked for another doctor to be stationed in their battalion, because they were afraid that Goldstein would refuse to treat them in case they were wounded. Because of their request Goldstein was reassigned to another battalion. He continued to serve as a military doctor both in the conscript army and in the reserves. After some years he was reassigned to the regional Hebron brigade of the central command where he thereafter served his reserve stint. Immediately after receiving this assignment, he told his commanders that his religious faith would make it impossible for him to treat wounded or ill Arabs; he asked to be reassigned elsewhere. His request was granted, and he was reassigned to a reserve unit serving in South Lebanon.

Amir Oren, who subsequently became the military correspondent of Haaretz, provided the most complete story of Goldstein's relations with the Israeli army and the entire Israeli political establishment in his March 4 Davar article. According to Oren, after the 1984 elections and the subsequent formation of the national unity government, then Defense Minister Yitzhak Rabin and then Chief of Staff General Moshe Levy learned about Goldstein's refusal to treat non-Jews in Lebanon. Oren wrote:

When Goldstein's refusal to treat non-Jewish patients became evident to his commanders, both the artillery corps and medical corps commanders quite naturally wanted to court-martial him and thus get rid of him. They took it for granted that this could be easily done, because Goldstein had graduated only from the army's course for medical officers. [Goldstein did not have combat officer training, which is normally a prerequisite for admission to the course for medical officers.] The two corps [commanders] also knew that Goldstein, while attending the army's course for medical officers, had become notorious as an anti-Arab extremist.
According to other Hebrew press reports, some of Goldstein's trainee colleagues demanded that he be dismissed from the course; their demand was refused. Oren related: "(Goldstein) was already then protected by highly placed people in senior ministries. Those patrons requested that Goldstein be allowed to serve in Kiryat Arba rather than in a combat battalion." The situation then developed into "a bone of contention between the commander of the army's medical corps and its chief rabbi." Oren continued:

In the end the issue of what to do with an officer who openly refused to obey orders by invoking Halacha has never been resolved, even if that officer openly refused to provide medical help both to Israeli soldiers and POWS. Can we avoid being stunned by the army's failure to court-martial Goldstein? Why was no order to court-martial him ever issued by the entire chain of the army command? That chain of command included the commander of the northern command, Reserve General Orri Or [a Labor MK and later in 1994 the chairman of the Knesset Committee for Foreign and Defense Affairs], and General Amos Yaron, who now is the commander of the manpower department. Why did they refuse to decide without first consulting the chief rabbi? The already embarrassed medical corps [commanders] now [after the massacre] admit that they were scared by publicity that might have propelled the religious parties and religious settlers' lobbies to make things more of a mess than ever before. The fear of publicity time after time prompted the army commanders to give in to all kinds of Goldsteins, rather than to denounce their views and court-martial them.
Many sources corroborated Oren's hinting that this Goldstein situation did not constitute a unique case. The story told by Oren revealed the pervasiveness of the religious parties' influence in the Israeli army. Jewish orthodoxy's stance against non-Jews, as openly advocated by Goldstein's idolized leader, Rabbi Meir Kahane, was—and still is—an essential position held by the major religious parties. As such, this stance has had a strong impact upon the Israeli army. Had Rabin and the army commanders mentioned by Oren, moreover, felt no affinity whatsoever with Kahane's and Goldstein's views, they would not have given in to the religious parties with such abandon and thus sacrificed all consideration of military discipline. Israeli policies, directed towards Palestinians, other Middle East Arabs (perceived by Zionists as non-Jews) and people of other nations, are only explainable by assuming that they are based upon anti-Gentile feeling. The anti-Gentile feeling is strongest among the most religious Jews but exists as well in this secular milieu. This is the reason why support for Goldstein in 1984 and 1985 had a sequel in the excuses by many Israeli leaders for the slaughter. These excuses were thinly disguised by mostly hypocritical expressions of shock.

Goldstein's refusal to give proper medical treatment to non-Jews continued after he was transferred to Kiryat Arba. In his February 27,1994 Yediot Ahronot article, Nahum Barnea wrote:

The senior Israeli army officer in the Hebron area told me about his two encounters with Baruch Goldstein. The second time he saw him was in the company of Kach goons who were abusing President Ezer Weisman during his visit to Kiryat Arba. The first time he encountered Goldstein was after an Israeli soldier had wounded a local Arab in his legs. The Arab was brought to an army clinic for treatment, but Goldstein refused to treat him. Another army physician had to be summoned to substitute for Goldstein. The officer did not explain why Goldstein was thereafter not demoted in rank but was rather allowed to keep performing his duties in the reserves. Incidentally, his misconduct also constituted a violation of the oath he had taken upon becoming a doctor, but for this the Israeli army cannot be blamed.
Barnea made clear that the entire Israeli establishment, not just the army, was responsible for the leniency granted to Goldstein for his misdeeds. The leniency lasted until the massacre. Only after the massacre did the official line change to shock, coupled with assertions that Goldstein had acted alone. Thus, during the first three hours after the slaughter Rabin and his retinue insisted either that Goldstein was a psychopath or that he was a devoted doctor who happened to suffer a momentary derangement. Barnea reported: "Within hours a whole edifice of rationalization was built, according to which Goldstein had allegedly been under unbearable mental pressure, because he had to attend so many wounded and dead [persons], including Arabs." The men who propagated this lie knew that Goldstein had refused to treat Arabs. Barnea continued: "Thus, the Arabs were made guilty for what he could not avoid doing. The implication was that the Arabs assaulted him rather than the other way around and that he really acted for the benefit of the Arabs by letting them finally realize that Jewish blood could not be shed with impunity." This brazen lie was maintained as long as possible before being abandoned without apology. The propagation of such a lie reveals the influence of Jewish fundamentalism upon the secular parts of the Israeli establishment.

Goldstein represented Jewish fundamentalism in the extreme. Some of the Gush Emunim leaders at the time of the massacre were only a bit less extreme. Barnea compared Goldstein's attitude toward non-Jews with that of Rabbi Levinger, the Gush Emunim leader whom he interviewed on the day of the massacre:

Levinger was in a good mood; after arguing about how religious settlers should respond to the massacre, he shortly before had won the three hour debate at a session of the Kiryat Arba municipality. The secretary of the Council of Judea, Samara and Gaza District, Uri Ariel, [who became director of the prime minister's office in 1998] proposed condemning the massacre. Levinger staked his authority behind the proposal that the [Israeli] government should instead be condemned [for putting Goldstein] under unbearable mental pressure [propelling him to action].
In the discussion the terms "murder," "massacre" or "killing" were avoided; instead the terms used were "deed," "event" or "occurrence." The reason is that according to the Halacha the killing by a Jew of a non-Jew under any circumstances is not regarded as murder. It may be prohibited for other reasons, especially when it causes danger for Jews. In many cases the real feelings about a Jew murdering non-Jews, expressed in Israel with impunity, correspond to the law. Levinger told Barnea that the resolution "expresses in passing" the sorrow about dead Arabs "even though it emphasizes the responsibility of the government." When asked by Barnea whether he felt sorry, Levinger answered: "I am sorry not only about dead Arabs but also about dead flies."
Goldstein on principle had refused to treat non-Jews for many years before the massacre. He worked as the municipal doctor of Kiryat Arba and treated Arabs only when he could not avoid doing so. Barnea quoted one of Goldstein's colleagues from the Kiryat Arba clinic who recalled that "whenever Goldstein arrived at a traffic accident spot and recognized that some of the injured were Arabs, he would attend to them but only until another doctor arrived. Then, he would stop treating them. 'This was his compromise between his doctor's oath and his ideology,' said his colleague."
The Halacha enjoins precisely the behavior of Goldstein's refusing to attend non-Jews. The Halacha dictates that a pious Jewish doctor may treat Gentiles when his refusal to do so might be reported to the authorities and cause him or other Jews unpleasantness. There is reason to believe that whenever doctors as pious as Goldstein were forced to treat Arabs they behaved as did Goldstein. In his previously cited Yediot Ahronot article, Arych Kizel added that the Israeli army found that Goldstein's conduct did not require any disciplinary measures. A Maariv correspondent wrote in his March 8, 1994 article that Goldstein's military service record was sufficiently distinguished to earn him a ceremonial promotion from the rank of captain to that of major. The president of Israel would have officially awarded this promotion on April 14, 1994, Israel's independence day. Only Goldstein's death, which occurred at the time of the massacre, prevented what would have been a revealing promotion.

An even greater example ofJewish fundamentalism's influence upon the secular part of the Israeli establishment can be detected in the official arrangement of Goldstein's elaborate funeral at a time that the deliberate character of the massacre could not be denied. The establishment was affected by the fact, widely reported in the Hebrew press but given little place in the foreign press, that within two days of the massacre the walls of religious neighborhoods of west Jerusalem (and to a lesser extent of many other religious neighborhoods) were covered by posters extolling Goldstein's virtues and complaining that he did not manage to kill more Arabs. Children of religious settlers who came to Jerusalem to demonstrate sported buttons for months after the massacre that were inscribed: "Dr. Goldstein cured Israel's ills." Numerous concerts of Jewish religious music and other events often developed into demonstrations of tribute to Goldstein. The Hebrew press reported these incidents of public tribute in copious detail. No major politician protested against such celebrations.

President Weizman expressed more extravagantly than others his sorrow for the massacre. Weizman, as reported by Uzi Benziman in his March 4, 1994 Haaretz article, was also engaged in lengthy and amiable negotiations with Goldstein's family and Kach comrades concerning a suitably honorable funeral for the murderer. Kiryat Arba settlers, many of whom had already declared themselves in favor of the mass murder in radio and television interviews and had lauded Goldstein as a martyr and holy man, demanded that General Yatom, the commander responsible for the Hebron area, allow the funeral cortege to parade through the city of Hebron, in order to be viewed by the Arabs even though a curfew existed. Yatom did not object outright to the demand but opposed it as something that could cause disorder. Tzvi Katzover, the mayor of Kiryat Arba and one of the most extreme leaders of the religious settlers, telephoned Weizman and threatened that the settlers would make a pogrom of Arabs if their demands were not met. Weizman responded by telephoning the chief of staff and asking why the army opposed the demand of the settlers. According to Benziman, Chief of Staff Barak answered: "The army was afraid that Arabs would desecrate Goldstein's tomb and carry away his corpse." In further negotiations involving Barak, Yatom, Rabin, Kach leaders and Kiryat Arba settlers, Weizman assumed the consistent position, as stated by Benziman, that "the army should pay respect to the desires and sensibilities of the settlers and of the Goldstein family." Ultimately, the negotiated decision was that a massively attended funeral cortege would take place in Jerusalem and that the police would close some of the busiest streets to the traffic in Goldstein's honor. Afterwards, the murderer would be buried in Kiryat Arba along the continuation of Kahane Avenue. According to Benziman, Kach leaders at first rejected this compromise. General Yatom had to approach the Kach leaders in person and beg them abjectly for their agreement, which he finally secured. Yatom also had to obtain consent from the notorious Kiryat Arba rabbi, Dov Lior. As reported in the March 4, 1994, issue of Yerushalaim Lior declared: "Since Goldstein did what he did in God's own name, he is to be regarded as a righteous man." Benziman explained the conduct of Weizman and his entourage: " After the fact the officials of the presidential mansion justify those goings on by the need to becalm the settlers' mood." After the funeral the army provided a guard of honor for Goldstein's tomb. The tomb became a pilgrimage site, not only for the religious settlers but also for delegations of pious Jews from all Israeli cities.
The details of Goldstein's funeral as arranged through the office of President Weizman are significant. The facts below were taken mostly from the Ilana Baum and Tzvi Singer report, published in Yediot Ahronot on February, 28 1994. The funeral's first installment took place in Jerusalem. Among the estimated thousand mourners only a few were settlers from Kiryat Arba. Baum and Singer noted: "Without having met Goldstein personally, other mourners most of whom were Jerusalemites, were enthusiastic admirers of his deed. Many more were Yeshiva students. A large group represented the Chabad Hassidic movement, another group [consisted of anti-Zionist] Satmar Hassids." Other Hassidic movements were also well represented. (Not mentioned in the English-language press, Goldstein, a follower of Kahane, was also a follower of the Lubovitcher rabbi.) Baum and Singer continued:

People awaiting the arrival of the corpse could be heard repeating: "What a hero! A righteous person! He did it on behalf of all of us." As usual in such encounters between religious Jews, all the participants tuned into a single, collective personality, united by their burning hatred of the Israeli media, the wicked Israeli government and, above all else, of anyone who dared to speak against the murder.
Before the start of the procession well-known rabbis eulogized Goldstein and commended the murder. Rabbi Israel Ariel, for example, said: "The holy martyr, Baruch Goldstein, is from now on our intercessor in heaven. Goldstein did not act as an individual; he heard the cry of the land of Israel, which is being stolen from us day after day by the Muslims. He acted to relieve that cry of the land!" Toward the end of his eulogy Rabbi Ariel added: "The Jews will inherit the land not by any peace agreement but only by shedding blood." Ben-Shoshan Yeshu'a, a Jewish underground member, sentenced to life imprisonment for murder and amnestied after a few years spent under luxurious hotel conditions, lauded Goldstein and praised his action as an example for other Jews to follow.

Border guards, police and the secret police protected the funeral cortege. Baum and Singer related:

An entire unit of border guards precede the cortege; they were followed by young Kahane group members from Jerusalem who continuously yelled: "death to the Arabs." While obviously intending to find an Arab to kill, they could not spot one. Suddenly, a border guard noticed an Arab approaching the cortege behind a low fence. The border guard immediately jumped over the fence, stopped the Arab and, using force, led him away to safety before anyone could notice. He [the border guard] thus saved him [the Arab] from a certain lynching.
Behind the young Kahane group members was a coffin, which was surrounded by leaders of Kahane splinter groups, some of whom were wanted by the police. (The police and the secret police claimed later that they did not recognize these wanted leaders. The press correspondents easily recognized them.) Baum wrote:

Tiran Pollak, a Kahane group leader wanted by the police, granted me an interview near the coffin. "Goldstein was not only righteous and holy," he told me, "but also a martyr. Since he is a martyr, his corpse will be buried without being washed, not in a shroud but in his clothes. The honorable Dr. Goldstein has always refused to provide medical help to Arabs. Even during the war for Galilee he refused to treat any Arab, including those serving in the army. General Gad Navon, the chief rabbi of the Israeli army, at that time contacted Meir Kahane to ask him to persuade Baruch Goldstein of blessed memory to treat the Arabs. Kahane, however, refused to do so, because this would be against the Jewish religion." Suddenly the crowd began yelling: "Death to the journalists." I looked around and realized that I was the only journalist inside the crowd of mourners. I clung to Tiran Pollak and begged him to "please protect me." I was scared to death that the crowd might recognize me as a journalist.
Military guards transported Goldstein's coffin to Kiryat Arba through Palestinian villages. A second round of eulogies was delivered in the hall of the Hesder Yeshiva Nir military institution by a motley of religious settlers, including the aforementioned Rabbi Dov Lior. Lior said: "Goldstein was full of love for fellow human beings. He dedicated himself to helping others." The terms "human beings" and "others" in the Halacha refer solely to Jews. Lior continued: "Goldstein could not continue to bear the humiliations and shame nowadays inflicted upon us; this was why he took action for no other reason than to sanctify the holy name of God."

Tohay Hakah reported in Yerushalaim on March 4,1994 upon another Lior eulogy of Goldstein a few days after the funeral. He recalled that Lior several years ago was excoriated in the press for recommending that medical experiments be performed on the live bodies of Arab terrorists. The outcry against this recommendation influenced the attorney general to prevent the otherwise guaranteed election of Lior to the Supreme Rabbinical Council of Israel. The attorney general, however, did not interfere with Lior's current rabbinical duties. The press reported upon other eulogies, delivered not only in religious settlements but in religious neighborhoods of many Israeli towns during the days immediately following the slaughter. The Hebrew press reportage of these eulogies suggests that the most virulent lauding of Goldstein and the calling for further massacres of Arabs occurred in the more homogeneous religious communities.

The approval of Goldstein and his mass murder extended well beyond the perimeters of the religious Jewish community. Secular Israeli Jews, especially many of the youth, praised Goldstein and his deed. That Israeli youth were even more pleased by the massacre than were the adults is well-documented. The concern here nevertheless will be with the adult population, which in many ways is the most significant. According to Yuval Katz, who wrote an article published in the March 4, 1994 issue of Yerushalaim, it is not true that "with the exception of a few psychopaths, the entire nation and its politicians included, has resolutely condemned Dr. Goldstein, even though, luckily for us, all major television networks in the world were last week still deluded by this untruth." Katz told how a popular television entertainer, Rafi Reshef, who was not controlled as tightly as the moderators in sedate panels, "could this week announce the findings of some reliable polls." Katz continued:

It is important that according to one poll about 50 per cent of Kiryat Arba inhabitants approve of the massacre. More important is another poll that showed that about 50 per cent of Israeli Jews are more sympathetic toward the settlers after the massacre than they were before the massacre. The most important poll established that at least 50 per cent of Israeli Jews would approve of the massacre, provided that it was not referred to as a massacre but rather as a "Patriarch's Cave operation," a nice-sounding term already being used by religious settlers.
Katz reported that the politicians and academics interviewed by Reshef failed to grasp the significance of those findings. Attributing them to a chance occurrence, they refused to comment upon them. He tended to excuse them:

I presume that those busy public figures, along with everybody else who this week exerted himself to speak in the name of the entire nation simply did not have time to walk the streets in the last days. Yet, with the exception of the wealthiest neighborhoods, people could be seen smiling merrily when talking about the massacre. The stock popular comment was: "Sure, Goldstein is to be blamed. He could have escaped with ease and have done the same in four other mosques, but he didn't."The impression of many other Israelis corresponded to the Reshef findings. People were rather evenly divided into two categories: in one category the people were vociferous in cheering the slaughter; in the other category the people mostly remained silent and condemned the massacre only if encouraged to do so. Katz continued:

Therefore, this was the right time to draw finally the obvious conclusion that we, the Jews, are not any more sensitive or merciful than are the Gentiles. Many Jews have been programmed by the same racist computer program that is shaping the majority of the world's nations. We have to acknowledge that our supposed advancement in progressive beliefs and democracy have failed to affect the archaic forms of Jewish tribalism. Those who still delude themselves that Jews might be different than [people of] other nations should now know better. The spree of bullets from Goldstein's gun was for them an occasion to learn something.
The wise comments of Katz were not heeded in Israel except by a minority. It may be that had more Israeli Jews paid attention and heeded the words of Katz the murder of Yitzhak Rabin would have been averted. In the view of this book's authors, the important difference between the real shock caused by Rabin's murder and the lack of shock caused by Goldstein's massacre lies in the fact that Goldstein's victims were non-Jews.

Although less direct than Katz, many other commentators in the Israeli Hebrew press have focused upon that part of the Israeli Jewish public who were shocked by the rejoicing over the massacre of innocent people and disturbed by the apologia offered by many politicians and public figures. Some of those people who were shocked described the backers of and apologists for Goldstein as "Nazis" or "Nazi-like." These same people, who can be considered moderate hawks rather than Zionist doves, had before the massacre reacted negatively to the use by a few Israeli Jewish critics of such terminology in describing a part of the Israeli Jewish population. These "moderate hawks" had habitually labelled many Arab organizations, such as the Abu Nidal group and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, "Nazi" or "Nazi-like." They did not repudiate their views about these Arab organizations; they merely concluded that some Jewish individuals and organizations also merit being so labelled on equal terms with some Arabs. The prestigious journalist, Teddy Preuss, reflected upon all of this in a most severe but substantially representative manner in his March 4, 1994 Davar article:

Compared to the giant-scale mass murderers of Auschwitz, Goldstein was certainly a petty murderer. His recorded statements and those of his comrades, however, prove that they were perfectly willing to exterminate at least two million Palestinians at an opportune moment. This makes Dr Goldstein comparable to Dr Mengele; the same holds true for anyone saying that he [or she] would welcome more of such Purim holiday celebrations. [The massacre occurred on that holiday.] Let us not devalue Goldstein by comparing him with an inquisitor or a Muslim Jihad fighter. Whenever an infidel was ready to convert to either Christianity or Islam, an inquisitor or Muslim Jihad fighter would, as a rule, spare his life. Goldstein and his admirers are not interested in converting Arabs to Judaism. As their statements abundantly testify, they see the Arabs as nothing more than disease-spreading rats, lice or other loathsome creatures; this is exactly how the Nazis believed that the Aryan race alone had laudable qualities that were inheritable but that could become polluted by sheer contact with dirty and morbid Jews. Kahane, who learned nothing from the Nuremberg Laws, had exactly the same notions about the Arabs.
Really, Kahane had the same notions about non-Jews. Although less scathing than Preuss, other Israeli commentators suggested the same consideration.

In contrast to the above criticism were the even more numerous comments about the harm caused to Israeli Jews by the Goldstein massacre. The lament in the February 28, 1994 Haaretz Economic Supplement, for example, was headlined: "Goldstein's massacre caused distress on the Tel-Aviv stock market." Other papers voiced similar sentiments. More importantly, Shimon Peres and other senior dovish politicians presented a typical political apologia in their criticism of the massacre, which they delivered in a meeting of the Knesset Committee for Foreign and Defense Affairs. Specific detail of this meeting is included below to illustrate the real opinions of most Israeli politicians and their general disregard of a major massacre of non-Jews except as it affected the interests of Israel and its allies. A March 8, 1994 Haaretz article reported the discussion at this meeting. Peres wasted no time expressing heartfelt shock about the murdered Palestinians but spoke instead about the harm to Israel caused by the "pictures of corpses that the entire world could watch." Peres did not condemn the armed religious settlers for their public rejoicing and shooting; he deplored the harm caused to Israel and to themselves by the pictures of them. As quoted in Haaretz, Peres added: "The events in Hebron also adversely affected the interests of President Mubarak and King Hussein, and even more of the PLO and its leadership." Peres then went on to say: "We have had Jewish Kibbutzim located in the midst of Arab inhabited areas for 80 years, and I cannot recall a single instance of such a slaughter nor of firing at Arab buses nor of maiming Arab mayors." At this point in the discussion senior Likud politicians interpolated Peres. As reported in Haaretz:

The first to interrupt Peres' speech was Sharon. "Kibbutzim are dear to me no less than to you, but there have been many cases when somebody from a kibbutz would go out to murder Arabs." Peres answered: "The two cases are not comparable, because in the case under discussion the murderer was supported by a whole group of followers." Benny Begin [answered]: "Why are you always talking in generalities?" Peres [responded] : "I am not. I only maintain that in order to pursue the peace process we need the PLO as a partner, and now this partnership is in straits and we need to help the PLO." Sharon [answered]: "You mean that we should help that murderer [Arafat]." Peres, angrily banging the table [responded]: "And what about Egyptians with whom you, Likud, made peace? Didn't Egyptians murder Jews? Really. What's the difference between war and terrorism? Does it make any difference how 16,000 of our soldiers were killed? Everywhere, states are making deals with terror organizations." Netanyahu [spoke]: "No state exists that has made a deal with an organization still committed to its destruction. The PLO has not rescinded the Palestinian Covenant. You are dwelling upon the crime committed in Hebron not in order to reassure people [Jews] living there but in order to advance your plan to establish a Palestinian state." Peres [answered]: "It is you and your plans that will lead to the formation of a Palestinian state, because it is you, the Likud, that created the PLO in Madrid. It is you who conceived the autonomy in the first place, contrary to all our [previously pursued] aims." Netanyahu [stated]: "Autonomy is not the same thing as state." Peres [continued]: "But it is Sharon who is first to say that autonomy is bound to lead to a Palestinian state... I am not less steadfast than are you; this is why I have elaborated the most restrictive possible interpretation of autonomy in Oslo, in relation to its territory, power and authorities. This is why we are against international observers and consent only to the temporary presence of representatives from the countries contributing money. And regarding the Palestinian Covenant, they have renounced it publicly, but they find it difficult to convene their representative bodies to ratify this renunciation." Begin [answered]: "Let me remind you that the PLO has not undertaken publicly to rescind the Palestinian Covenant." Peres [answered] : "I don't give a damn about you and/or your legalistic verbiage! Arafat said that he renounced the Palestinian Covenant and for me Arafat is the PLO."
The above passage shows, among other things, that knowledge of Israeli politics and more generally Jewish affairs can be best attained by using the original sources of what Jews say among themselves.

The continuing process of Goldstein's elevation to the rank of saint by groups of Israeli Jews and his worship as such began soon after the massacre. In his February 28, 1994 Haaretz article, Shmnuel Rosner recounted a sermon delivered on the Sabbath after the massacre by Rabbi Goren, the former chief military rabbi and chief rabbi of Israel. Rosner wrote: "Goren's conclusion was that next time an authorization would be needed for a massacre. The authorization should come from the community 'not from the [present] illegal government."' Rosner observed that the audience liked Goren's sermon but would have preferred, as would numerous other Israeli Jews, that the army rather than Goldstein had committed the massacre.

 

[abubaseer]

In the days and weeks after the massacre, appreciation of Goldstein and his deed spread throughout the Israeli religious community and among its supporters in the United States. The initial expressions of that appreciation may be most significant, because they were spontaneous and because they illustrated the influence, even beyond the messianic community, of an ideology that approved indiscriminate killing of Gentiles by Jews. Avirama Golan described in her February 28, 1994 Haaretz article how news about Goldstein on the day of the massacre became known in the overwhelmingly Haredi city of Bnei Brak and how the next day a religious Jewish crowd reacted with praise of Goldstein during a mass entertainment event. The massacre occurred on Purim, the festival during which religious Jews are merry and sometimes drink alcoholic beverages to the point of drunkenness. Bnei Brak streets were filled to capacity by joyful celebrants that day; a special security force, comprised of religious veterans of the Israeli army's elite units, had been hired by the mayor to enforce order and modesty. Golan described the response in the streets to the spreading news of the massacre:

A hired security guard, with a huge gun in his belt, a black skullcap on his head, and special insignia of "Bnei Brak Security Team " on his chest, stared at a fundraising stall. Then he noticed his pal across the street. "A Purim miracle, I'm telling you, Purim miracle," he shouted at the top of his voice. "That holy man did something great. 52 Arabs at one stroke." However, the fundraiser, a slim yeshiva student, was skeptical. "That's just impossible," he said. "Those must be just stories." But the people standing around confirmed the news. "It was on the radio," they said. "Where?" "In the Patriarchs' Cave in Hebron." The yeshiva student turned pale. "I don't mind the Arabs, but it is us who will pay the price," he said. "What are you talking about?" the security guard shouted, "It's a Purim miracle. God has helped." People around the stall formed two groups: on the one hand those who said that God Himself ordained a well-deserved punishment of the Arabs; on the other, those who remained silent throughout. The fundraiser went on writing receipts and shaking his head. "Oh," he said, "nothing really happened." The Bnei Brak functionary's wife said that dozens of visitors who, as is customary on Purim, visited their home that morning, were shocked. "By the murder?" somebody asked. "To tell you the truth, not exactly by the murder. About what may now happen to the Jews."
Jumping to the evening of the next day, Golan continued: "Masses of religious Jews were expected to come to Yad Eliahu Stadium [the biggest in Israel] to be entertained by the famous religious jazz singer, Mordechai Ben-David. For months before the massacre, this evening had been planned as a demonstration intended to save the land of Israel from Rabin, Peres and other Jewish infidels." All factions of the religious community were represented in the crowd. Golan again continued:

The first part of the evening passed quietly and even rather dully. Only after the intermission, some minutes before the star of the evening was to appear, the crowd went on a rampage. The master of the ceremony called upon a Kiryat Arba resident to address the crowd. He started by praising that "righteous and holy physician, Dr. Goldstein, who rendered us a sacred service and got martyred in the process." The speaker called upon the audience to mourn him. By and large, the audience remained silent. Some applauded. Only a single individual, wearing a small beard and a knitted skullcap, stood up and yelled: "I disagree; that was a cold-blooded murder!" Instantly he was physically assaulted. Many in the crowd yelled: "Kick the infidel out of the hall!" The tempers calmed down only when Ben-David finally appeared on the stage and began singing. Outside after the performance some people reminisced that more Gentiles had been killed by the Jews in Susa during the original Purim [75,000]. They, therefore, reasoned that this was the right time to kill a comparable number of Gentiles in the holy land.
No wonder that Dov Halvertal, a member of the almost defunct faction of the NRP doves, told Golan: "This Purim joy epitomizes the moral collapse of religious Zionism... If religious Zionism does not undertake soul-searching right now, I doubt if it will ever have another opportunity."

Subsequent developments showed that neither the religious Zionists nor other factions within the Jewish religious community were or are in any mood to engage in soul-searching. On the contrary, the appreciation of Goldstein and the feeling that Jews have a right and duty to kill Gentiles who live in the land of Israel are growing. In his March 23, 1994 Haaretz article, Nadav Shraggai discussed the visit of a delegation of all Israeli branches of the Bnei Akiva, the large youth movement affiliated with the NRP, to Kiryat Arba and Hebron, which was then under a curfew selectively applied to its Arab inhabitants. The purpose of this visit was to "encourage Jewish settlers." Yossi Leibowitz, a settler leader from Hebron, as described by Shraggai, "beaming with satisfaction visible in his face asked the delegation: 'Have you already visited the tomb of holy Rabbi Doctor Goldstein?'" The visitors rejected the suggestion but did not utter one word of rebuke to the worshippers of the new saint. They then had to withstand a flurry of abuse from their local Bnei Akiva comrades who argued that their refusal to pay homage to Goldstein amounted to support of the left. Local rabbis affiliated with the NRP seconded the denunciation. Rabbi Shimon Ben-Zion, a senior teacher in the local Hesder Yeshiva and hence a state employee, delivered a eulogy of Goldstein and of what he called "his act." He added: "[If the government] keeps bowing low to Arabs, all of whom are murderers, [and if] the Jews fail to establish a firm rule over the land of Israel [there will be] more Goldsteins." Most visitors made counter-arguments; they were nevertheless influenced by their hosts' arguments; they came to believe that their duty to support the Jewish settlers in Hebron was more important than any minor disagreements about Goldstein's sainthood.

Gabby Baron reported in the March 16, 1994 Yediot Ahronot:

Deputy Minister of Education Mikha Goldman was physically assaulted yesterday after delivering a welcoming speech at a meeting of Jerusalem's district teachers in the Binyaney Ha'umah hall in that city. He managed to avoid being hurt. His speech infuriated dozens of religious teachers, because he talked about his visit to Kiryat Arba and the shock he experienced when finding how enthused the religious school children were by the massacre in the Cave of the Patriarchs. A virtual riot erupted in the hall, which was filled by about 5000 Jerusalem district teachers, as soon as he spoke about it. Dozens of religious teachers jumped onto the podium. A female teacher who managed to reach it [the podium] picked up a flowerpot from the speaker's table; she was ready to hurl it at him when at the last moment she balked. All the religious teachers assembled in rage in front of the podium and decried the deputy minister as "a fascist." Goldman insisted upon continuing his speech. When he ended, he had to leave the building under heavy guard, thanks to which the pursuing teachers were unable to injure him.
Neither Education Minister Arnnon Rubinstein nor Prime Minister Rabin uttered a single word in condemnation of the incident.
On April 5, 1994, Israeli radio reported that Rabbi Shimon Ben-Zion had distributed a leaflet among the Kiryat Arba and Hebron settlers requesting financial contributions for a book about "Saint Baruch Goldstein." On April 6, Yediot Ahronot published the text. The book refers to Goldstein as "Rabbi Doctor Baruch Goldstein of blessed memory, let the Lord avenge his blood." The Kiryat Arba municipal council backed the ideas of Ben-Zion. In his April 5, 1994 Haaretz article, Arnnon Barzilay reported that two days earlier Gush Emunim leaders, including Mayor Benny Katzover, had an amicable talk with Prime Minister Rabin who apologized to them for his past outbursts against them and promised never to repeat them. (The outbursts anyway were intended for consumption of the Israeli "doves," Arafat and the Western media.) The two sides agreed to cooperate closely in the future. Thus, Rabin understandably found it ill-advised to say anything about Rabbi Ben-Zion's idea.

About one year later the Kiryat Arba municipality obtained a permit from the Civil Administration of the Occupied Territories to build a large and sumptuous memorial on Goldstein's tomb, which has become a place of pilgrimage. Thousands of Jews from all Israeli cities, and even more from the United States and France, have come to light candles and pray for the intercession of "holy saint and martyr," now in a special section of paradise close to God and able to obtain for them various benefits, such as cures for diseases from which they suffer, or to grant them male offspring. The visitors have donated money for Goldstein's comrades. No Orthodox rabbi has criticized this.
The well-publicized worship of the new saint has brought increasing opposition from secular Jews. (The opposition of Palestinians, especially those living in Hebron, to the hero-worship of Goldstein and to the monument to this mass murderer are not within the scope of this book but should be obvious.) After a long campaign in the press, Knesset members passed a piece of legislation in May, 1998, that prohibited the building of monuments for mass murderers and ordering removal of existing ones. The Israeli army should have removed the monument immediately after passage of the law in the Knesset. Instead army spokesmen announced that negotiations over the Goldstein monument were on-going with Goldstein's family and local rabbis.

The book in praise of Goldstein, titled Blessed the Male, was published in 1995 and sold in many editions. Most of the readers were from the religious public. The book contained eulogies of Goldstein and halachic justifications for the right of every Jew to kill non-Jews. Rabbi Yitzhak Ginsburgh, the then head of the Kever Yosef (tomb of Joseph) Yeshiva, located on the outskirts of Nablus, wrote one chapter of that book. The essence of Rabbi Ginsburgh's views were presented in Chapter 4. His and other such ideologies, even if expressed more cautiously, explain Goldstein's massacre, the considerable support Goldstein and later his followers have received from religious Jews and the ambiguous attitude of Israeli governments to this crime. Those people, especially Germans, who were silent and did not condemn Nazi ideology before Hitler came to power are also, at least in a moral sense, guilty for the terrible consequences that followed. Similarly, those who are silent and do not condemn Jewish Nazism, as exemplified by the ideologies of Goldstein and Ginsburgh, especially if they are Jews, are guilty of the terrible consequences that may yet develop as a result of their silence.

 

[Optimist]

Brother Abubaseer,

Could you please supply a link to the source so I can fact check this? I have read Talmud and have never read these passages. Fot those who are unaware, Talmud is not regarded as holy scripture but simply a compilation of philosophy of certain rabbis over a long period of time. Judging the religion off Talmud would be like judging Islam off some writings by sheiks.

Wasalaam

~Sarah

Thank you sister for this important contribution. I've not read the Talmud myself.

Would you please summarize for us how non-Jew are viewed in Judaism ?

Salam

 

[ShyHijabi]

Thank you sister for this important contribution. I've not read the Talmud myself.

Would you please summarize for us how non-Jew are viewed in Judaism ?

Salam

Salaam,
When I was raised as a Jew I was always taught that all people are creations of God and therefore precious. I was taught that every life was sacred and therefore deserved to be treated with dignity and respect.

Brother Abubaseer,
The man who wrote this book is an extremist who makes no bones about being anti semetic. He is a paranoid conspirory theorist and it is a matter of time before he turns his twisted mind on Islam. He makes sport of saying the halocaust never happened when I lost many relatives to the gas chambers under Hitler. There are Muslims who claim Jews are not human and use the verse in the Quran where the traitorous Jews are declared apes and pigs. This particular verse only applied to those Jews who had betrayed Rasool and not to all Jews in general. Now I find this verse used by anti-Islamic sites far and wide to show we are commanded to hate a particular people.

There is a very small subsect in the Orthodox Judaism that are hyper focused in the Talmud and even treat the rabbis as some sort of saint. The rest of the Jewish community (religious) criticize their behavior strongly. When we (Muslims) see Shia praying and prostrating while calling out to Ali (RA) do we approve? No, but there is little we can do about their misguided behavior, instead we try to teach the true Islam. The Talmudist are regarded the same way among the Jews and even the Orthodoxy, as an crazy offshoot. I can go find many. many websites where Muslims twist the Qu'ran and the Hadiths to justify everything from honor killing a rape victim to beheading an innocent civilian.

By using this man's website you are giving him legitimacy and making it appear as if all Jews feel this way. (BTW, this man isn't even Jewish and this website is akin to an atheist criticizing the Qu'ran) He is a dangerous man and has completely misrepresented what the Talmud teaches and what it means to Jews. I think if you want to learn what Jews really think and believe you ought to actually approach one and open a dialog, afterall Rasool did this very thing while spreading Islam. I think we should always practice the Sunnah when dealing with al-Kitaab and maintain adaab. If a Jew who is curious about Islam (like I was before conversion) saw these postings on this site, it would simply make them more afraid of Muslims and most likely lead them away from Islam. PLease keep this in mind before posting from a questionable source and therefore alienating possible converts.

I love you for the sake of Allah.

~Sarah

 

[Munawar]

:salam2:
There is no point in dragging this thing any further. Further discussion about Talmud wouldn't add any more useful knowledge than it has already been presented.
And so even if there is a hint that this could scare someone who is interested in learning about Islam, then the Hikmah suggests that we should avoid it.

Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) has always approached people with Hikmah and therefore his Sunnah is a great asset for us to learn from and to use in our daily life, even on TTI. :shake:

 

[abubaseer]

Salaam,
When I was raised as a Jew I was always taught that all people are creations of God and therefore precious. I was taught that every life was sacred and therefore deserved to be treated with dignity and respect.

Brother Abubaseer,
The man who wrote this book is an extremist who makes no bones about being anti semetic. He is a paranoid conspirory theorist and it is a matter of time before he turns his twisted mind on Islam. He makes sport of saying the halocaust never happened when I lost many relatives to the gas chambers under Hitler. There are Muslims who claim Jews are not human and use the verse in the Quran where the traitorous Jews are declared apes and pigs. This particular verse only applied to those Jews who had betrayed Rasool and not to all Jews in general. Now I find this verse used by anti-Islamic sites far and wide to show we are commanded to hate a particular people.

There is a very small subsect in the Orthodox Judaism that are hyper focused in the Talmud and even treat the rabbis as some sort of saint. The rest of the Jewish community (religious) criticize their behavior strongly. When we (Muslims) see Shia praying and prostrating while calling out to Ali (RA) do we approve? No, but there is little we can do about their misguided behavior, instead we try to teach the true Islam. The Talmudist are regarded the same way among the Jews and even the Orthodoxy, as an crazy offshoot. I can go find many. many websites where Muslims twist the Qu'ran and the Hadiths to justify everything from honor killing a rape victim to beheading an innocent civilian.

By using this man's website you are giving him legitimacy and making it appear as if all Jews feel this way. (BTW, this man isn't even Jewish and this website is akin to an atheist criticizing the Qu'ran) He is a dangerous man and has completely misrepresented what the Talmud teaches and what it means to Jews. I think if you want to learn what Jews really think and believe you ought to actually approach one and open a dialog, afterall Rasool did this very thing while spreading Islam. I think we should always practice the Sunnah when dealing with al-Kitaab and maintain adaab. If a Jew who is curious about Islam (like I was before conversion) saw these postings on this site, it would simply make them more afraid of Muslims and most likely lead them away from Islam. PLease keep this in mind before posting from a questionable source and therefore alienating possible converts.

I love you for the sake of Allah.

~Sarah

As Salaam Alaykum Sister Sarah,

Jazaki-Allahu Khairan for your reply...

But, I'm sorry I'm a little confused and would like to discuss this further..it shouldn't be problem if we can maintain adab InshaAllah...But, if you think it is not good idea to discuss in the forum you can reply in PM to me...

1. Does Israel Shahak deny holocaust?
Because below is his description of him from wikipedia:

Born in Warsaw, Poland,[1] Shahak was the youngest child of a cultured Polish Jewish family.[2] After Germany occupied Poland, his family was forced into the Warsaw Ghetto. His brother escaped and joined the Royal Air Force and his father disappeared. His mother paid a poor Catholic family to hide him, but when her money ran out he was returned, and in 1943 they were both sent to Bergen-Belsen concentration camp. Israel Shahak was liberated in 1945, and shortly thereafter emigrated to the British Mandate of Palestine, where he volunteered for a kibbutz, but was turned down as "too weedy".

2.Is the story that has been quoted about Baruch Goldstein correct?

3. Did you had chance to check the references of the quotes from Talmud.
Maa' Salaama

 

[nori suja'i]

whatever stated in Talmud seems in
reality is the other way round.

 

[ShyHijabi]

Salaam,

Brother ABubaseer,

1. The writer of the source (the blog) is the person I was referring to as a halocaust denier. (Micheal Hoffman) By printing his info from his blog you are giving him legitimacy and indirectly supporting his cause. Mark my words, he will turn his attentions on Muslims eventually and unleash his remarkable brand of hatred on us.

2. I don't know anything abour Baruch Goldstein but again, even if he spouts hatred against all non-Jews I don't see how posting his opinion will serve to call others to Islam. There are many, many Muslims decrying their hatred for Jews (and Christians, and hindus,etc., )and twisting verses from the Quran to back their opinions.

3. I only have my old Torah, the Talmud is huge and not easily referenced. But my point is this, Talmud is not thought of as sacred except by a very small sub-sect of Orthodox Jews. Everyone else thinks they're nuts and don't considered their Midrash legitimate. It is like taking writings from the Shia (that claim Rasool beat Aisha) and posting them and saying that is what all Muslims believe.

I think we must all remember that our jobs as Muslims is to present Islam to as many people as possible and be the tool Allah swt uses to bring others to this religion. There is no need to create more division and anger. What purpose does it serve to bring up passages from a Talmud (and I still need time to check these up) on a Muslim board? This board is for removing misconceptions about Islam and spreading the message. Please consider how many people you may detract from Islam by posting something you don't know much about. Do not become the tool of shaitaan and have him laughing at how many people you turn off to Islam.

Wasalaam

~Sarah

 

[island muslim]

:salam2:
There is no point in dragging this thing any further. Further discussion about Talmud wouldn't add any more useful knowledge than it has already been presented.
And so even if there is a hint that this could scare someone who is interested in learning about Islam, then the Hikmah suggests that we should avoid it.

Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) has always approached people with Hikmah and therefore his Sunnah is a great asset for us to learn from and to use in our daily life, even on TTI. :shake:

Indeed I agree. Like other times when this type of material from hate sites were posted in this forum I request the moderators to remove it.
Like sister Shyhijabi said it gives legitimacy to these haters who are not muslim and obviously have anti Jewish hate which is not Islamic.
May allah reward you with the best of rewards sister shyhijabi ameen. You are indeed patient , wise and well mannered and best of all guided.

 

[abubaseer]

Salaam,

Brother ABubaseer,

1. The writer of the source (the blog) is the person I was referring to as a halocaust denier. (Micheal Hoffman) By printing his info from his blog you are giving him legitimacy and indirectly supporting his cause. Mark my words, he will turn his attentions on Muslims eventually and unleash his remarkable brand of hatred on us.

Point taken Sister, I have deleted the link.

2. I don't know anything abour Baruch Goldstein but again, even if he spouts hatred against all non-Jews I don't see how posting his opinion will serve to call others to Islam. There are many, many Muslims decrying their hatred for Jews (and Christians, and hindus,etc., )and twisting verses from the Quran to back their opinions.

>> Well sister I think there is a lot of difference.

1. The Muslims who do spout this kind of hatred are in a micro minority.
2. And their opinions are considered by invalid by vast majority of Muslims.
3. Muslims scholars refute them and write books against them and give fatawas against them.
4. None of the Muslim rulers tolerate them.

As for the case of the Jews in Israel it is the opposite of the above.

And The book "Jewish fundamentalism in Israel" by Israel Shahak has the proof for it.



As for discussion about jews or christains in an Islamic forum. It is sufficient to say that Quran also discusses about Jews.
And if you have a chance to survey the discussion, articles videos etc on this site you will find that there are many on Christians and their deviation from truth. And it has not been a hindrance to christians in accepting Islam on this site.
Why then should the topic of jews be so different?

As long as the info we post is accordance with correct understanding of Islaam and is presented with proper adab.

It will only lead many people from the misguidance, falsehoodod and deviation of the religion they are following (Judaism, christianity etc) to the absolute truth os Islaam...InshaAllah!

Was Salaam.

 

[abu turaab]

:salam2: i want to ask a question!..we all agree that Jews suffered under the rule of Naze German state of hitler...yet many stories and Movies of the mass-killing of Jews executed in the most Brutal and perverted ways ever tried to a human....how much the reality?..how much fiction added to the truth??...If Iran says....the myth of the Halocaust have to be search-in again!!...to see the truth...why then the Isreal shreiks??

 

[ShyHijabi]

As for the case of the Jews in Israel it is the opposite of the above.

The Jews in Israel are not all the Jews in the world, not even the majority. There are actually many Jews against the establishment of Israel and it's illegal occupation of the land. Would you like to see the links to the sites where Jews are protesting? It actually against the Torah to establish a state in Israel while they believe they are in exile. (they believe they lost Israel as a punishment from God)

Keep in mind that their opinion isn't popular so it's less likely that you will get an opportunity to read it. I have been asked many time why we Muslims do not speak out against terrorism, I have told them we have tons of fatwas, scholars speaking, etc., but the media isn't as interested as portraying both sides. When it comes to Jews and Israel you will find the same thing.

I really don't understand this fascination about the Talmud. This is akin to a non-Muslim hyperfocused on a book written by some sheiks and saying this is what Islam teaches. The Torah is the universally accepted scripture from all Jews, only an extremely micro-minority treat the Talmud as some special book. It is NOT the opinion of many or even a tenth of the Jews.

My family never taught that non-Jews were any less than a Jew. They did teach me to fear Muslims and even used ayas taken out of context to show that I would killed if I was ever discovered by a Muslim. They didn't know those ayas did not apply to all Jews, heck even a lot of Muslims don't know this fact. (as evidenced by my disaster of a "ask a former jew a question" thread)

Thank you, brother Abubaseer, for removing that link. Please be very cautious which sources you use in your research about other religions and their tenets. I would be more than happy to aid you in your endeavors.

Wasalaam

~Sarah

 

[Mabsoot]

The Jews in Israel are not all the Jews in the world, not even the majority. There are actually many Jews against the establishment of Israel and it's illegal occupation of the land. Would you like to see the links to the sites where Jews are protesting? It actually against the Torah to establish a state in Israel while they believe they are in exile. (they believe they lost Israel as a punishment from God)

Keep in mind that their opinion isn't popular so it's less likely that you will get an opportunity to read it. I have been asked many time why we Muslims do not speak out against terrorism, I have told them we have tons of fatwas, scholars speaking, etc., but the media isn't as interested as portraying both sides. When it comes to Jews and Israel you will find the same thing.

I really don't understand this fascination about the Talmud. This is akin to a non-Muslim hyperfocused on a book written by some sheiks and saying this is what Islam teaches. The Torah is the universally accepted scripture from all Jews, only an extremely micro-minority treat the Talmud as some special book. It is NOT the opinion of many or even a tenth of the Jews.

My family never taught that non-Jews were any less than a Jew. They did teach me to fear Muslims and even used ayas taken out of context to show that I would killed if I was ever discovered by a Muslim. They didn't know those ayas did not apply to all Jews, heck even a lot of Muslims don't know this fact. (as evidenced by my disaster of a "ask a former jew a question" thread)

Thank you, brother Abubaseer, for removing that link. Please be very cautious which sources you use in your research about other religions and their tenets. I would be more than happy to aid you in your endeavors.

Wasalaam

~Sarah

:salam2:

JAzakillahu khayr ukhti

People certainly need to be bit more balanced and make sure they stick to the facts.

There are a lot of things said about Jews that is untrue. As Muslims, we need to be fair in what we say and in our actions. Certainly, that is what the original teachings of Islam ask of us.

I will lock this thread now, I dont think there is any reason for it to remain open.