Iraq presents a lesson from history

xSharingan01x

TraVeLer
Article taken from BBC Website, from the following link:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7774888.stm



Andrew North's report from the British war cemetery in Baghdad

As Britain prepares to pull its troops out of Iraq, former BBC Baghdad correspondent Andrew North looks back to a previous military campaign and considers whether history is destined to repeat itself?

As the insurgency spread, the letters from the British diplomat in Baghdad grew bleaker.

"We are in the thick of violent agitation and we feel anxious… the underlying thought is out with the infidel."

And then: "The country between Diwaniyah and Samawah is abandoned to disorder. We haven't troops enough to tackle it at present."

A month later: "There's no getting out of the conclusion that we have made an immense failure here."

In fact, this insurgency was in 1920, the uprising against the British occupation of what was then still Mesopotamia.

The diplomat was Gertrude Bell, an energetic and passionate Arab expert who literally drew Iraq's borders. "I had a well spent morning at the office making out the southern desert frontier of the Iraq," she wrote in late 1921.

'Mass of roses'

But read her letters and diaries and you can easily imagine she's describing events since 2003, as American and British forces lost control of the country they had invaded.

The latest unhappy chapter in Britain's involvement in Iraq is approaching its end, with the government likely to announce soon a plan to withdraw most of its forces over the course of next year.

There are plenty of parallels with 90 years ago, says Toby Dodge, the widely-respected Iraq expert at London University's Queen Mary College, but "in the run-up to the invasion, both in Downing Street and the Foreign Office, there was no sense of history whatsoever".

The hundreds of letters Bell wrote to her parents during her time in Iraq and other parts of the Middle East, complete with requests for supplies of "crinkly hairpins", are available to anyone via the internet.


Our armies do not come into your cities and lands as conquerors or enemies, but as liberators
Lt Gen Sir Stanley Maude in Baghdad, 1917

Iraq pull-out 'may start in March'

Born in County Durham, her papers are now held by Newcastle University's Robinson library, which has been putting them online, together with her many photos.

It is a record of a unique person, who also managed to find time to be an enthusiastic Alpine mountaineer and accomplished archaeologist, her first passion.

But it was the creation of Iraq that would consume her most.

There was a sense of elation when Britain took Baghdad from the Ottoman Turks in the spring of 1917 and a belief in the inherent rightness of the cause - much like the mood in the White House and Downing Street in April 2003 after the toppling of Saddam Hussein.

"Baghdad is a mass of roses and congratulations," Bell wrote, shortly after taking up her post as Oriental Secretary in the occupation administration. "They are genuinely delighted at being free of the Turks."

'Full-blown jihad'

A few weeks before, the British commander Lt Gen Sir Stanley Maude had promised the people of Baghdad that: "Our armies do not come into your cities and lands as conquerors or enemies, but as liberators."

Fluent in Arabic, Bell threw herself into her task of setting up a pro-British Arab government and was soon the main link to the country's new politicians.

Her instinct was to give the Arabs more independence than London wanted. For several years things proceeded peacefully. The slower communications of that time meant any dissension took longer to spread. Iraqi insurgents today have mobile phones. But dissension there was.

She had misjudged the power of the leaders of the Shia majority, particularly their clerics.

"There they sit in an atmosphere which reeks of antiquity," she wrote dismissively to her mother in early 1920, "and is so thick with the dust of ages that you can't see through it - nor can they."

By that summer, they were leading an uprising against the British, who found themselves insufficiently equipped to handle it.

"We are now in the middle of a full-blown jihad," she confessed to her mother a few weeks later.

Burning villages

As things fell apart, anger and opposition to the Iraq venture grew in London. But Bell didn't shirk the blame. "The underlying truth of all criticism is… that we had promised self-governing institutions and not only made no step towards them but were busily setting up something entirely different."

Her letters capture too the contradictions of being an occupying power, however good it believes its intentions to be. "It's difficult to be burning villages at one end of the country by means of a British army and assuring people at the other end that we really have handed over responsibility to native ministers," she said in November 1920.



Oil is the trouble, of course. Detestable stuff!
Gertrude Bell, 1921
The British 'queen' of Iraq

A new government was created though, in spite of the insurgency - as in Iraq today. It did meet one of London's goals - it was pro-British and in 1921, Iraq officially became a nation state.

But nearly 10,000 Iraqis had died in the process. And that government - with the imported King Feisal I at its head - was inherently unstable, led by the minority Sunnis, with the Shia majority excluded - the model by which Iraq would subsequently be governed by Saddam Hussein.

The Shias have today reversed that perceived injustice - as they dominate the current government - although through an arguably more open process than in the 1920s.

But their experience under the British is etched into their collective soul in a way that will condition Iraqi politics for many years yet. The other day in Baghdad, I was talking to a senior Shia figure who referred simply to "1920" as he explained his political outlook. And now it is the Sunnis who feel disenfranchised.

Sleeping tablets

Gertrude Bell died in the Iraqi capital in 1926 after taking an overdose of sleeping tablets. The last few years of her life she had returned to her original love of archaeology - setting up a museum that still stands - after falling out of favour in the colonial administration.

Many older Iraqis still talk affectionately of the woman they called "Miss Bell", despite her controversial record.

She's buried in a small date-palm fringed Christian cemetery in central Baghdad.

The sprightly caretaker started working there in 1955, in the time of the last British-backed king, Feisal II, surviving the coups, dictatorships and chaos that have followed.

Gertrude Bell's tomb in Baghdad
Christian cemetery caretaker Ali Mansour with Gertrude Bell's tomb

Fighting has often engulfed the area around the graveyard in recent years. The British and Americans should have learnt "from the experience of others, like Miss Bell, and the lessons from history," says caretaker Ali Mansour. "Iraq has always been a difficult country."

With the reduced levels of violence, there is a view in the outside world that Iraq is now somehow fixed.

But attacks still claim 10-20 lives every day. And Toby Dodge sees many similarities between the "unstable, unrepresentative" state the British left behind in the early 20th century and what has emerged today.

"The Americans as far as we know will leave Iraq in 2011 with an unstable state and an unpopular ruling elite using a great deal of violence to stay in power," he says.

What would Gertrude Bell have made of all of this? She did foresee the outline of things to come. In late 1921, the increasingly powerful Americans were manoeuvring to sign their own treaty with the new Iraqi state: "Oil is the trouble, of course," she spat. "Detestable stuff!"
 

Mohsin

abdu'Allah
:salam2:

JazakAllah khairan brother for sharing the info with us. Its always interesting to see that how Brits in the past and US currently playing the same stupid games. They come telling people they are there to liberate them and civilize them blah blah blah and end up getting kicked in the end by the same people whom they want to liberate (read enslave). Its funny whenever I hear some politician speak I take out the dictionary to see the antonyms.

It happened the same way with Israel and I can only guess that by setting up Israel in Middle East the Brits wanted a base for themselves and they ended up being beaten by the Israelis themselves and thrown away. Lets see whats coming our way this time around.

May Allah help our Ummah and unite it upon the truth.
 

xSharingan01x

TraVeLer
:salam2:

JazakAllah khairan brother for sharing the info with us. Its always interesting to see that how Brits in the past and US currently playing the same stupid games. They come telling people they are there to liberate them and civilize them blah blah blah and end up getting kicked in the end by the same people whom they want to liberate (read enslave). Its funny whenever I hear some politician speak I take out the dictionary to see the antonyms.

It happened the same way with Israel and I can only guess that by setting up Israel in Middle East the Brits wanted a base for themselves and they ended up being beaten by the Israelis themselves and thrown away. Lets see whats coming our way this time around.

May Allah help our Ummah and unite it upon the truth.

:salam2:
Similarities between the two occupation is striking. One can also make the same case for Afghanistan during the Soviet times and now American occupation (with the exception of no super power help *coughs* this is no Jihad, so says a faction of our scholarly establishment *coughs*

Every single time a foreign country invades occupies our lands we are given the same 'promises of freedom, sovereignty,etc... etc.. when we will wake up and shake our hands an realize the conclusion will be no different than what happened in the past.
All these empty talk of peace are nothing but words, and an occupying force never leaves a Muslim land until they face armed struggled. Why are we expecting a different result?
It baffles me how we are supposed to have patience and cooperate and expect a fruity outcome! Silly..........So far there hasn't been any historical example, and I don't think there will be one.

One needs not to look any further than study recent history and look at all the treachery and deception under the occupying forces to see the truth.

May Allah relieve the pains of the Afghanis, Iraqis, Somalis, and Palestinians.


Allah knows best.




:wasalam:
 

xSharingan01x

TraVeLer
Why G.Bush, T.Blair, C.Rice, Dick C. and Rumsfeld had been able to terrorise Iraq with their armies ?

One of it is, Rasulullah said "Najd (Iraq) is between the 2 horns of Syaithan."

The Kurdi who are the Yazidism, a Syaithan worshipper claiming as Malaikat worshipper.

In every place where there are corruption and Syirik, these Naar dwellers for eternity (if not doing Taubat) could take over the country.


Assalamu'alaikum wa rahmatullaahi wa barakaatuh.

Are you reffering to the Kurds? I'm very confused. If so, are you reffering to all Kurds or a faction of the kurds? I hope it's the latter, because you're statement is very misleading if it's the former.

Your logic is faulty, these same people (let's say the ones before them) also terrorized many other places in the Muslim world, and there aren't any kurds there! Palestine, Afghanistan, Algeria (under the French), presently Somalia... etc etc.....


:wasalam:
 

cmelbouzaidi

Junior Member
:salam2: thank you for this very interesting thread, brother. Do you think Miss Bell fell out with the administration and killed herself because she could see the injustice to the people of Iraq being done by the British and what kind of perils could come out of it (and did)? maybe she was bumped off so she wouldn't spill the beans?

May ALLAH bring solace to all our oppressed brothers and sisters around the globe and to anyone living in countries occupied or ruled by criminals.

:wasalam:
 

xSharingan01x

TraVeLer
:salam2: thank you for this very interesting thread, brother. Do you think Miss Bell fell out with the administration and killed herself because she could see the injustice to the people of Iraq being done by the British and what kind of perils could come out of it (and did)? maybe she was bumped off so she wouldn't spill the beans?

May ALLAH bring solace to all our oppressed brothers and sisters around the globe and to anyone living in countries occupied or ruled by criminals.

:wasalam:

:salam2: Sister

I wouldn't say her experience was a direct cause for her death, however it is logical to assume that because of the limbo she was in and the all stress and complexities came with her position, she resorted to taking the pills to find some relieve.
Although I'm not a big fan of Miss Bell or the likes of her (as the author stated: her track record is controversial), but you can see a lot of goodness in many foreigners, the enthusiastically involve themselves in foreign country with the intention of helping however reality sooner or later baffles them.
How is Ms Bell supposed to know that the people who pull the strings in London has entirely differently plan that what she is looking for? When they come to know such things that's when the dilemma starts.
I think some of the soldiers are in the same position too.

:wasalam:


P.S. Compare Miss Bell (who is merely a pawn) and Churchill a King on a chessboard (although, he governed much later): It's no secret that Churchill was an imperialist and a racist against Arabs.
How can people like Miss Bell do any good if the kings are like Churchill?

I can't believe he won the Nobel Prize! IMO he should have been tried for war crimes and human rights abuses against Arabs!
 

Al-Kashmiri

Well-Known Member
Staff member
As-salaamu `alaykum.

Not directly related, but S.E. Djazairi in his "A Short History of Islam" brings many examples of instances where the Europeans entered Muslim lands to "liberate", but bring nothing but destruction; Algeria, Morocco, Egypt, India you name it. What's interesting is how heavily the author, may Allaah reward him, relies more-so upon Western sources for the bulk of his work/s, to back up his claims.
 

justoneofmillion

Junior Member
:salam2:Europe has never being colonized by any other nation on earth than the Arab and muslim one !when they have done that to the whole world themselves can t stand of being colonized!that is why they love us so much.. it is time to restart the job and colonize them again for all the atrocities they have done to mankind period and "liberate" them from the materialistic and egoistic approach they have towards this world.i believe that ISlam will settle no matter what they do inshallah
psi de love to colonize Britain or FRance King jameel and Elisabeth:SMILY105:,uh a younger version of Elisabeth lets say :D

Great piece but a sad one akhi just wanted to add a little sugar on it hope you won t mind inshallah
wassalaam
jameel
 

xSharingan01x

TraVeLer
As-salaamu `alaykum.

Not directly related, but S.E. Djazairi in his "A Short History of Islam" brings many examples of instances where the Europeans entered Muslim lands to "liberate", but bring nothing but destruction; Algeria, Morocco, Egypt, India you name it. What's interesting is how heavily the author, may Allaah reward him, relies more-so upon Western sources for the bulk of his work/s, to back up his claims.

:salam2:
Exactly my point! Nice to know we can agree on something :D lol

We have witnessed this pehonoma before, and each time the conclusion does not change. Speaking strictly from a historical perspective, the best way and to a certain degree (only way) to drive out the colonilizers is to fight them and make their stay a living hell. I think this applies to all other nations who were colonized, not just Islamic nations.
That is the only option I think the Muslims should take as of now, or else we should be ready to be subdued for few more decades with all these took of 'peace, liberation, reform, etc etc.."
:wasalam:
 

a_muslimah86

Hubbi Li Rabbi
Staff member
Why G.Bush, T.Blair, C.Rice, Dick C. and Rumsfeld had been able to terrorise Iraq with their armies ?

One of it is, Rasulullah said "Najd (Iraq) is between the 2 horns of Syaithan."

The Kurdi who are the Yazidism, a Syaithan worshipper claiming as Malaikat worshipper.
In every place where there are corruption and Syirik, these Naar dwellers for eternity (if not doing Taubat) could take over the country.


Assalamu'alaikum wa rahmatullaahi wa barakaatuh.


I find your information very strange brother...and I don't know what is your source for them..but unfortunately they are wrong...

first of all...Yazidees are descendants of ASSYRIANS!!!...and they belong into tribes of their own...they *live* in predominately Kurdish parts of Iraq and some parts of predominately Arabic cities (i.e. Mosul, Iraq)..so they have assimilated into both cultures..and it is common to see Yazidees who speak Arabic..Kurdish..and even Assyrian if they live in villages close to Assyrian tribes...so they are descendants of Assyrians...and even their religion contains symbols and beliefs like those of the ancient Assyrians...their religion in general is a mix of Islam..Judaism..Zoroastrianism..Manichaeism..and Gnosticism

So it's not uncommon to sit with a yazidee who is name is IBRAHIM..who swears on Allah when he needs to...who upon starting his meal says BISMIALLAH..and upon finishing says ALHAMDULIALLAH..but instead of fasting Ramadhan for 30 days..he will fast for 3..doesn't believe in a hell (they believe in reincarnation)..and won't accurse the Shaitan as they believe that accursing in GENERAL is a matter forbidden for them..and they believe that the Shaitan repented after disobeying Allah (swt)...and Allah (swt) accepted his repentance...

Now whether they're deviated or not...that is another issue which has no room to be discussed here...but I thought I'd give you some pointers because your claims were incorrect unfortunately...

Second of all...Najd is modern day Riyadh, Saudi Arabia and its surrounding cities..such as Unaizah..Bareedah..and Al-Kharj...etc.

Even before Islam...the area of Najd extended up until the the modern day borders of Iraq and Syria...so it was such a small tiny part of it..that many geographers at the time eventually dismissed it from their mappings!!!

I mean no disrespect by giving all these details...but I feel obligated to correct a matter which is otherwise...

For the record...I am Iraqi...and from the city of Mosul...so in addition to historical readings and sources...I have personally been exposed to Yazidees...and when it comes to the history of Najd and what not..well Arabs speak of tribal history a lot..so it's something many parents teach their children

Pardon me if I bothered you...

:wasalam:
 

a_muslimah86

Hubbi Li Rabbi
Staff member
:salam2:

Wow!

That was a very striking article...it's true what they say *history repeats itself*...sobhanallah...

My great-grandfather fought against the British during the occupation..and earned 7 death-sentences due to his "insurgence"...the stories I have heard about fighters back then are amazing let me tell you...

For the record...many people harp on the claim that Shi'ias are the majority..and that is wrong...because for some *odd* reason..when people count up the population of Sunnis..they leave out the Kurds!!!...even though the absolute majority of them are Sunni-Muslims

It kind of makes you wonder!

But Jazaki Allah Khair for the article...I enjoyed it and learned a lot from it..inshallah I will look up "Miss Bell" to learn more about her letters and her life in Iraq :hijabi:

:wasalam:
 

a_muslimah86

Hubbi Li Rabbi
Staff member
And pardon me also, because my time is kind of limited, I just gonna write it in brief.
Yazidism is a religion of Satanism while they imitated Muslims, those kind of persons must not live in Iraq, because they weren't Huda au Nashara.

Although people said that Najd is part of Saudi, what Rasulullah meant as Najd is Iraq. For instance, what did Rasulullah mean by Syam? Syria? But Syria, Palestina, Libanon etc. So I mean everyone could counter me, but I just wanted to say that Yazidism who imitated Muslimin as you say, must not be allowed to live in Iraq (I don't say Najd, because of our disagreement).

They worshipped Malik Taus which means Peacock who is Iblis, and that religion I don't know about the their beliefs now, thinks that Malaikat was creating the Heaven, after Allahu Ta'ala created the earth and the sky, so they think but worshipping Malaikat, they could enter Heaven, while worshipping Allahu Ta'ala will not help them in the after life, this is "Subhaana rabbil 'izzati 'amma yashifuun, wa salamun 'alal mursaliin, walhamduillaahi rabbil 'aalamiin." Their book is Meshaf Resh. This is in internet and in magazines about Satanism, like in India the Satanism is the one worshipping Satan through doing copulation etc.


Subhaanallahi wa bihamdihi subhaanakallahumma wa bihamdika astaghfiruka wa atuubu 'ilaik.


Assalamu'alaikum wa rahmatullaahi wa barakaatuh.


Brother...

Yazidees are CLEARLY deviated..but they are certainly NOT Satanists!!! (I listed out the mixture of religions which they have adopted in my other post)..

My family has befriended Yazidees in Iraq..my mom works with a whole bunch of them here in the US..and in Iraq we were neighbors with many..we know their beliefs..we know their rituals..we know their holidays..traditions..the way they dress..we know practically everything about them!!!

There is NOTHING Satanist about them..I and many residents of the city of Mosul can testify to this...they are simply..DEVIATED...

Besides...

Why would a Satanist swear on Allah???...and why would he/she make dua'a in His name???...they believe that Shaitan is the leader of the seven main angels which they believe in..but they worship a higher being...that is...Allah

Some of them even read the Qura'an!!!..and celebrate Eid Al-Adh'ha!!!

They go about the whole worship and belief deal wrongly of course!!!...but to claim they are Satanist is unfair on our part!!!

As for not allowing them to live in Iraq...

How would you like it if Indonesia became predominately Christian..and the Christians decided..*hey let's kick the Muslim out of here...he's not allowed to live here!!!..because he's Muslim..he's wrong in his belief..get him out!!!*...?????

No matter what!!!..

These people are Iraqis!!!..LIKE I AM..and they love Iraq...LIKE I DO..

Iraq had been their land for ages (from the time of the Assyrians!!!)...even before Islam came...if anything...the Muslims around them should make Da'awa for them like they would with Christians and Jews and so on..so they may earn their Ajer and take them out of their deviation...

But I don't think we are allowed to afflict harm upon others due to their beliefs...that doesn't sound or seem Islamic to me!!!..we are to act gentle with them so we may bring them closer to Islam and instill its love in their hearts..and have them enjoy the light of Iman like we do...

I hope you understand my perspective brother..as this will be my last post concerning this issue because I don't want to disrespect sister *sharingan* by taking her thread off topic

and Jazaka Allah Khair for taking the time to read my earlier post

:wasalam:
 

xSharingan01x

TraVeLer
I still firm with the rule in Daulah Islamiyyah when that will be uphold, that isn't argueable where that Daulah Islamiyyah will not take any other than Huda wa Nashara in their place.

Yazidism is Murtadin, Huda wa Nashara from Iraq are but that don't make them into deviants because they pray in Allah, but believe in Syirik in Uluhiyah. The Yazidism is Syirik in Rububiyah and Uluhiyah in their book Meshaf Resh.
Just to show thee an example when Daulah Islamiyah, Indonesia would not accept any Budhism and Hinduism like now.

Ahmadiyyah for example, they aren't deviants, when you consider that the Ghulam wrote in his book that Allah has made him His son. And other things which make you gonna act to this Murtadin RELIGION.
But talking that we're going to do action according to the example of Daulah Islamiyyah is not by our own action, must be by the Islamic gov.

Allahu Ta'ala is angry of people in Islam who disregard the Nahi Munkar and Jihad against Murtadin.

And thanks a lot for your empathy.


Assalamu'alaikum wa rahmatullaahi wa barakaatuh.
:salam2:

The sister was kind enough to explain in detail, you totally missed her point.

:wasalam:
 

AlQurtubi

Banned
I dont understand where this conversation is heading to?

Allied forces are being hurt really bad in Iraq and afghanistan but media isn't showing any thing. They cant fight with us . They only give us maximum damage when they work underground. Thats what they have done in the past as well.

Their lust for money will never end and they will keep bothering the world in the name of liberation, democracy etc. They will never learn from history.

It would be really interesting to read the letters written by Bell.
 

cmelbouzaidi

Junior Member
I dont understand where this conversation is heading to?

Allied forces are being hurt really bad in Iraq and afghanistan but media isn't showing any thing. They cant fight with us . They only give us maximum damage when they work underground. Thats what they have done in the past as well.

Their lust for money will never end and they will keep bothering the world in the name of liberation, democracy etc. They will never learn from history.

It would be really interesting to read the letters written by Bell.

:salam2: I agree, brother. It would be really interesting to read that lady's letters. The things she must have witnessed that were so unjust and immoral. And unfortunately today, the allies send the most uneducated young people to fight these bogus wars for them. Last year, I listened to accounts of US soldiers returned from war in Iraq on non profit radio. It was called Winter Soldier (in case it is recorded on line somewhere). These young men gave accounts of what heinous acts they were instructed to do by their commanders... Going into buildings, breaking down doors and just shooting wildly until everyone inside is dead.. and then whoops, wrong house....:astag: They are programmed not to challenge authority also, many come home and end up killing themselves as they cannot live with their own conscience in a "normal" setting. Some kill their spouse or even children. It is a dirty, despicable thing and they will not win.

I would also like to read Colin Powell's memoirs one day! He described himself (I heard on non profit radio) as the "token black person" in the bush admin. He said he was like that bottle in the fridge that you take out when needed and promptly put back in..... I am sure he would have some tales of Inside Washington wretched behaviour.

:wasalam:
 
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