Debating ??

[slaveofAllah88]

:salam2:

i read this hadith as passed by a brother

Could someone help me understand it please?
cause im wondering then what Sheikh AHmed Deedat, Dr Zakir Naik, and other people do when they have a debate with christians or people from other religions so would that be considered wrong then?

thank you

 

[slaveofAllah88]

aslam o alikum
a brother passed this to me, he got it from sister laila on http://sunnahfollowers.net/ in a life class

it would be great if someone could verify it as well

 

[a_muslimah86]

I wanted to reply right away and give my input..but I thought perhaps I should go bring *anything* valid to support what I am about to say..

Debating for the sake of ma'aroof..ridding bida'ah..and establishing the deen of Allah is not forbidden..it debating over fundamental and clear beliefs for no *aim* that is frowned upon and rejected..because *it* creates that which is opposite of I mentioned in the beginning...

The proof to this is of course Shaikh Ahmad Deedat (ra)..Dr. Zakir Naik..and several other scholars..some who specialize in debating those belonging to sects of deviation or bida'ah..and many are widely known amongst Muslims..some are even *published authors* of this very matter...

Debating spans out into an ample number of threads..we are to pick those with a clear aim..those obliterating misguidance..and establishing correct aqeedah and belief...

I found a link for you..which might help you..since you sounded worried about where the hadith you quoted places Shaikh Ahmad Deedat (ra) for example from it..It's a good read..and I am sure it will comfort you

http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/91658/ديدات

 

[slaveofAllah88]

aslam o alikum sister,
thank you for that great answer sister a_muslimah86

So is it okay to quote references from the bible then ? althought we muslims believe that bible is not true?
also does the Quran say bible is not there anymore? its all false?
I thought Quran told us that what is true in their books is contained in the Quran, so Quran is the Judge.

ALso, Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) never used bible to do dawaa? so isn't it wrong for scholars like Ahmed Deedat and Zakir naik to do so? wouldn't it be considered Bidah?

thank you

 

[Happy 2BA Muslim]

aslam o alikum sister,
thank you for that great answer sister a_muslimah86

So is it okay to quote references from the bible then ? althought we muslims believe that bible is not true?
also does the Quran say bible is not there anymore? its all false?
I thought Quran told us that what is true in their books is contained in the Quran, so Quran is the Judge.

ALso, Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) never used bible to do dawaa? so isn't it wrong for scholars like Ahmed Deedat and Zakir naik to do so? wouldn't it be considered Bidah?

thank you

:salam2:

The Qur'ân and Sunnah contain within them affective approaches to dialogue. They provide indisputable rational and empirical arguments that realize the needs of calling people to Islam, that, with Allah's help, will bring people to the truth. These sources provide us with what we need to engage the Jews and Christians in effective dialogue.

Among the effective approaches employed by the Qur'ân is that of criticizing the religious doctrines of the Jews and Christians, as well as those of the idolaters, by first presenting those beliefs with total clarity and frankness, and then showing how those beliefs are false. Examples of this are the Christian doctrine of the Trinity and the pagan doctrine of intermediation by means of idols.

This critical approach opens the way for an Islamic worker to study the false doctrines of various religions, which necessarily entails reading their scriptures and traditions to establish exactly what those doctrines entail so that they can be critically discussed and cited in discussions when disputing with others in a good manner.

It is possibly this critical approach that is established by the Qur'ân that caused many of the early Qur'ânic commentators to relate the stories and traditions of the People of the Scripture in their commentaries. This is especially evident when those traditions agreed with what is found in the Qur'ân and Sunnah or discussed matters that do not conflict with Islamic beliefs.

This is something permitted by Islamic Law, for the Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “Convey from me even a single verse. You may relate from the Children of Israel without objection. Anyone who deliberately tells a lie against me will have prepared his seat in the Hellfire.” [ Sahīh al-Bukharī (3461)]

Narrating such matters does not come under the prohibition expressed by the Prophet (peace be upon him) when he said: “Do not ask the People of the Scripture about anything, for they will never guide you and they have gone astray, lest you deny something that is true or believe something that is false.” In another narration, it reads: “If you do ask the people of the Scripture – as is inevitable – then consider what agrees with Allah's Book and accept it, and whatever contradicts Allah's book reject it.” [ al-Musannaf (6/112)]

On this basis, al-Muhallib says: “Asking them about matters confirmed by our religious teachings and matters pertaining to the nations of the past do not come under the prohibition.” [ Fath al-Bârî (13/334)]

Someone might be led to believe that looking into the books of the Jews and Christians and quoting from them in order to demonstrate the falsehood of their doctrines and to refute them is something prohibited on the basis of the following hadith:

`Umar brought to the Prophet (peace be upon him) a book that he had gotten from some of the People of the Scripture. `Umar read to him from it, which angered the Prophet (peace be upon him). He said: “I have brought to you what is clear and pure. Do not ask them about anything, lest they inform you of something true and you deny it or inform you of something false and you believe it. I swear by Him in whose hand is my soul, if Moses were alive today, he would do naught but follow me.” [ Musnad Ahmad (3/387)]

This hadith has a weak chain of transmission. Ibn Hajar says: “It contains Mujâlid b. Sa`îd who is a weak narrator.” [ Fath al-Bârî (13/334)] However, there are other chains of transmission for this hadith that might, taken together, bring it to the level of being acceptable ( hasan li-ghayrihi ).

In any event, this hadith must be understood to indicate that there is a restriction upon looking into the books of the Jews and Christians when there is no assurance that the person reading them is secure from being influenced by them. The reason for this is the other hadith that reads: “You may relate from the Children of Israel without objection.” This hadith indicates permissibility, that the restriction is lifted when the reason for that restriction is no longer present.

Ibn Hajar writes, while commenting on this hadîth:

It means: “There is no restriction upon you in relating from them.” This is because the Prophet (peace be upon him) had formerly denounced taking from them and looking into their books. Then he relaxed this restriction. It seems as if the prohibition had come before the Islamic rulings and religious principles had been firmly established, to prevent any possible confusion from taking place. Then, when the negative consequences ceased to be present, permission was given. This is because of the lessons to be gotten from listening to the stories of their times. [ Fath al-Bârî (6/498)]

On the basis of this permissibility, many scholars have cited a considerable number of passages from the Torah and the Gospel as evidence to demonstrate the falsehood of Jewish and Christian beliefs, to show how at times some of their doctrines resemble the beliefs of the pagans, and to show how their religion has deviated from the pure truth that had been brought by Moses (peace be upon him).

Notable among these scholars was Ibn Hazm, who, in his encyclopedia of religions and sects, follows up on a number of obvious contradictions and clear errors in the Torah, then writes:

Here we have concluded our presentation of what we have found in the Torah of the Jews that all Jewish sects as well as the Christians uphold without any disagreement among them; (texts) that contain obvious falsehoods in what they say about Allah Almighty, then about the angels, then about the Messengers (peace be upon them all). If there had been only one of the many categories that we have mentioned, it would have been sufficient for us to conclude that they were definitely corrupted and amended with falsehoods. How is it then, when there are fifty-seven such categories, some of which contain within them seven errors or contradictions?

He then goes on to say:

So what must we think when we find such a number of errors and contradictions in a book the size of their Torah, which is only 110 pages long, each page consisting of twenty-three lines of text written in a reasonably open hand so that a single line of text contains a little more than ten words? [ al-Fasl fî al-Milal wa al-Ahwâ' wa al-Nihal ]

We find that a similar approach has been taken by numerous other scholars, all of whom cited in their works passages from the books of the Jews and Christians for the purpose of comparison and criticism. Notable among these are Abû al-Barakât al-Anbârî, Abû `Ubaydah al-Khazrajî, `Alî b. Muhammad al-Bâjî, Najm al-Dîn al-Baghdâdî al-Tufî, Ibn Taymiyah, Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyyah, Rahmah Allah b. Khalîl al-Rahmân al-Hindî, and most recently, the popular Islamic worker Ahmad Deedat.

www.islamtoday.com

:salam2:

 

[fada_all]

So is it okay to quote references from the bible then ?

no brother don't do it never , we have everything in our holy Qur'an so why you need to quote from bible , and we all now that it is totally changed !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

allah konws more

 

[ahmed_indian]

no brother don't do it never , we have everything in our holy Qur'an so why you need to quote from bible , and we all now that it is totally changed !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

allah konws more

:salam2:,

i remembered a sentence by a sahaba thru ur words.

i think he was Ibn Masud or Ibn Abbas (ra). he told that christians dont use Quran for reference so why we muslims refer to their books knowing that Quran is perfect and their books have been corrupted.

 

[Hard Rock Moslem]

:salam2:,

i remembered a sentence by a sahaba thru ur words.

i think he was Ibn Masud or Ibn Abbas (ra). he told that christians dont use Quran for reference so why we muslims refer to their books knowing that Quran is perfect and their books have been corrupted.

Yes and no.

If a Christian challenge you, "show proof that my bible is corrupted" and he/she refused to take Qur'anic verses as proof, how do you daawah him/her then?

 

[zbhotto]

At the begining of the lecture Dr. Zakir Naik and Ahmed Dedar and other defends themselves against such argument as follows

Muslims does not believe the presend Bible contain the original message Prophet Jesus (PBUH). Nor the old testimony contains the original message of Prophet Muses (PBUH). Muslims also belive those scirptures were valid only upon the duration of those prophets.

But if we want to argue with the Christian/Jews that Koran is the last and final testemant they will not believe us. Likewise Hindus, Buddhist.

So in order to prove them the Koran is the final and ultimate revealation they quote from their corrrupted scriptures.

Likewise Dr. Zakir Naik also quote verses of Ajurbadh, Vabishapurana, bedh, Tripitok, and other scriptures in the world.

So there is nothing worng to convience the nonmuslims by using thier own scriptures.

By the way, Ahmed Dedar and Zakir Naik are not the inventor of this method of giving dawah.

It is the zionist, free missionary, athiest, hindus, christian and Jews who were, are and will be writing millions of books insulting Holy Koran, and Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). They have done it in the last 1400 years and they will do so until the day of judgement.

Ahmed dedar was the first person to successfully defeat those criminals by using their own belief systems. Before, insulting muslims, our prophet and our Koran, they should think aobut their own dirty beliefs. Dr. Zakir Naik is continuing the mission of Ahmed dedar.

We have to contiue it if we want to survive. It has been imposed on muslims by the zionist, athiest, Hindus, Christians and Jews.

Do not say Dr. Zakir Naik, Ahmed dedar introduces Bidah. They are defending the speech of Allah against the enemy of Allah.

May Allah Grant paradise to Ahmed Dedar. May Allah bless Dr. Zakir Naik and bless our community with more and more Zakir Naik.

Salam

 

[zbhotto]

Watch

Look at the lecture of former chirstian Dr. Jerif Jerald/Dr. Yousef Estates in youtubeislam.com to know how bible was corrupted.