10 year-old Leader?!!

[q8penpals]

Salam

As a teacher, my biggest concern would be the psychology of having a child lead adults. It changes the dynamic of the parent/child relationship if a young child is leading an adult. It is not the time of the Prophet anymore where there are only so few people who know the prayers and such that you find anyone you can to lead you. Can a woman lead her, say 10 year old son in prayer if her son does not know the whole thing? I mean, if he only knows part of the prayer or just not perfectly yet, why should he lead his mother (or older sister)? This is especially important for families of converts. For example, lets say a woman has kids and converts. She will probably learn the prayers first, and is teaching her children. Her children will have to follow her example. Is it better for them to pray alone or follow her if they are male children?

In Kuwait it is a huge problem - not kids leading adults in prayer, but kids bossing adults around (even as young as 5 or 6 years old). By this I mean, the nanny culture (where the nannies are basically personal indentured servants of the children) where the kids are bossing a grown up around. It really messes with the social balance between adults and children (I hear it is a problem in many of the oil-rich GUlf countries).

In Saudi several years ago, a lady broke the law by driving her husband to the hospital (women are not allowed to drive in Saudi). She got her husband to the hospital and the doctors took her husband in for treatment and called the police on her. The police told her she should have let her son drive her and the husband to the hospital. Ok, you say, what is wrong with that? Her son was in the car with her - he was 5 years old. The police thought it would have been better to have a 5 year old drive than his adult mother in an emergency situation. *cRaZy*

Lana

 

[al-muslimah]

:salam2:
I think especially praying together brings family together. hehe... "The family that prays together stays together"
wasalam

Yes, Thats true. The more I pray jama'a with my family the more I feel that I love them. I feel that praying with family gets you so close with the other members of family. Alhamdullah!

 

[al-muslimah]

Salam

The police thought it would have been better to have a 5 year old drive than his adult mother in an emergency situation. *cRaZy*

Lana

Oh God!!! thats sure Crazyy!!!!

 

[Al-Kashmiri]

guys,
i understand where all of you are coming from
but i have a problem with how a bunch of you interpreted it the situation

in the prayer where he SPIED on her to see if she was praying right
i think that shows that HE was praying WRONG
if you get my drift
which caused HER to to think about him spying on her throughout her prayer

but personnaly, i don't think he's MATURE enough
and it's reflected in his prayer
he will get it one day, as your father said...however, right now, i don't know if he shoudl lead you

my mom never lets my ten year old brother lead her...i've never asked her WHY? exactly...but i've always thought it was the maturity thing

and guys, let's admit, kids today are so much less mature than they were before

so basically? is he helping or hurting?
does it do more good than bad?

sometimes, it's better to pray for that one good deed at get it, then lose it all...and if you pray jammah with your mom or other females...then you still get the reward...
why don't you just let HIM pray alone...he's ten anways,
it's not like he's reached puberty...

but, it's w/e you think is right...you had resignations before...
why? was it just the age thing?
or maybe WHO it is?
the personality?

As-salaamu `alaykum

I agree with you, I forgot about the spying and kiddy behavior! I agree and apologise for overlooking it. Al-Muslimah, you should tell him nicely that he should pray with concentration, humility and such that he understands the salaah. If he is just getting up there with a big smile on his face, because he's playing leader, then I agree with Marwa in that there's a problem. In which case I would fear for my salaah, due to behavior not due to age (although there is correlation between the two).

Podolski, as for praying alone then it is haraam to abandon the jamaa`ah if you are able to attend. You can read a lengthy fatwa on the issue here.

Sister Lana, I understand the concern, but remember that if Allaah or His Messenger, sal-Allaahu `alayhi wasallam ordained a matter, then we accept it. The Messenger, sal-Allaahu `alayhi wasallam didn't show any opposition to the companions who put their child as an Imaam (who was far more mature then your average kid now!!!), rather the hadeeth is an approval. In addition, the Messenger of Allaah, sal-Allaahu `alayhi wasallam commanded us to every good, and forbade us from every evil.

If there was any evil or harm in the affair of putting the mature child who knows the most Qur'aan as an Imaam for the people, then there is nothing wrong with this. However, this is not the only condition that was set regarding who should lead the prayer. If there are for example 3 or 4 people who have memorised the Qur'aan entirely, one is young the others old, then most people will choose the older ones, for the Messenger, sal-Allaahu `alayhi wasallam told us to let the knowledgable ( most adults exceed children in `ilm!) ones lead the salaah (in case people are equal in recitation), and the list of delegation goes down... In the same hadeeth I'm referring to above (which is recorded in Muslim), the Messenger sal-Allaahu `alayhi wasallam states that a man has more right to lead in his house.

However I don't find too much conflict between what has been legislated and what you are saying. I don't disagree with many of your points. Although the Sunnah of the Messenger, sal-Allaahu `alayhi wasallam is suitable for any time.

 

[al-muslimah]

As-salaamu `alaykum

I agree with you, I forgot about the spying and kiddy behavior! I agree and apologise for overlooking it. Al-Muslimah, you should tell him nicely that he should pray with concentration, humility and such that he understands the salaah. If he is just getting up there with a big smile on his face, because he's playing leader, then I agree with Marwa in that there's a problem. In which case I would fear for my salaah, due to behavior not due to age (although there is correlation between the two).

He would'nt have done these kiddy behavior if he saw me following him..actualy I was making my self following him but when he discoverd, he really got annoyed .
Why didnt I follow him?! because in that time I still didnt know that it was ok for a young boy to lead ladies so i took my own steps.
but inshallah next time i'll follow him as long it is halal and there is nothing wrong with that..and nothing with his kiddy behavior will happen inshallah

 

[q8penpals]

As-salaamu `alaykum

Sister Lana, I understand the concern, but remember that if Allaah or His Messenger, sal-Allaahu `alayhi wasallam ordained a matter, then we accept it. The Messenger, sal-Allaahu `alayhi wasallam didn't show any opposition to the companions who put their child as an Imaam (who was far more mature then your average kid now!!!), rather the hadeeth is an approval. In addition, the Messenger of Allaah, sal-Allaahu `alayhi wasallam commanded us to every good, and forbade us from every evil.

If there was any evil or harm in the affair of putting the mature child who knows the most Qur'aan as an Imaam for the people, then there is nothing wrong with this. However, this is not the only condition that was set regarding who should lead the prayer. If there are for example 3 or 4 people who have memorised the Qur'aan entirely, one is young the others old, then most people will choose the older ones, for the Messenger, sal-Allaahu `alayhi wasallam told us to let the knowledgable ( most adults exceed children in `ilm!) ones lead the salaah (in case people are equal in recitation), and the list of delegation goes down... In the same hadeeth I'm referring to above (which is recorded in Muslim), the Messenger sal-Allaahu `alayhi wasallam states that a man has more right to lead in his house.

However I don't find too much conflict between what has been legislated and what you are saying. I don't disagree with many of your points.quote]

Salam

I understand that it is allowable, but I was just trying to point out that these days, most children are not as mature as children even 100 years ago. The original posting sister commented that her brother was looking at her and seeing that he was wrong (or thinking she was wrong or something) which is why I do not see that particular boy being ready to lead prayer. He is still a child who is learning, I think he should be following someone who knows, so he can learn.

At my school, we have some female Qu'ran/Islamic studies teachers up to grade 8 (so boys between 14 & 15 years old), thereby the females are leading them while teaching them. I have never heard a complaint, because they are still considered children. (In high school all the Qu'ran/Islamic teachers are male, even for the female students).

I guess it would have to be considered on a case-by-case basis - if a boy is going to lead adult women, he should be doing the prayer completely correctly. If he cannot, then he should not be leading. IN the case of the poster, for example, if she wasn't sure of a part of the prayer, and she followed her brother and copied him exactly and got in the habit of doing prayer a certain way, but then later found out he was incorrect, it is hard to break a habit.

BUT, it should be pointed out to the child, this does not mean he gets to boss people around! LOL! Leading a prayer is different than being a boss (which is something many children, no matter where they are from, confuse). To a certain extent, most children relish the idea of leadership (but relating it to bossing or power, not just being a good example, which is what a leader is) at certain times of their lives.

Have a nice day everyone - the weather today in Kuwait is just FaBuLoUs and it makes me contented when the weather is nice!! (we just had 2 days of sand storms, UGH!)

Lana

 

[al-muslimah]

BUT, it should be pointed out to the child, this does not mean he gets to boss people around! LOL! Leading a prayer is different than being a boss (which is something many children, no matter where they are from, confuse). To a certain extent, most children relish the idea of leadership (but relating it to bossing or power, not just being a good example, which is what a leader is) at certain times of their lives.

I agree with that.

Have a nice day everyone - the weather today in Kuwait is just FaBuLoUs and it makes me contented when the weather is nice!! (we just had 2 days of sand storms, UGH!)

Lana

Mashallah! Same here in Doha-Qatar. But It's getting too cold these days.

 

[warda A]

Logical

:salam2:

am talking from my own experience, i think if you know more than him as such you can lead, because yes women are allowed to lead a prayer, you do not stand infront of him, women when they lead prayers only stand a step away from the rest, that is how we do it at home when we pray jama'a even with our younger(10-12yrs) brothers.(when the older males are not around)

how will you teach them if you couldnt lead them?(when the father or older male siblings are not around)

my sister teaches her 6 yrs. old the prayer by standing beside him and showing him how it is done.

 

[Al-Kashmiri]

As-salaamu `alaykum.

The correct manner for a woman to lead the salaah is that she should stand in the middle of the row, there are many evidences for this. She should never be the Imaam for males, even her younger brothers, that is haraam.

Can a woman lead prayer if she knows more Qur’aan?

Question:
AsSalaam ALaik,
Who leads the prayer between husband and wife if the wife knows much more of the Quran than the man ?
The one who knows more Quran leads ?
Or the man leads ?
Please let me know ASAP.
Jazakallahu Khairan.

Answer:

Praise be to Allaah.

Ibn Hazam (may Allaah have mercy on him) said in his book Al-Muhallaa bi’l-Aathaar, 317:

“… It is not permissible for a woman to lead a man or men in prayer, and there is no dispute on this matter. Also, it has been reported that a woman invalidates a man’s prayer if she passes in front of him, which we will discuss further in a later chapter, in sha Allaah. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) also said, “The imaam is a protection (or a shield),” and ruled that (women) should definitely be behind men in prayer. The imaam should stand in front of the congregation or with them in the same row, as we have already mentioned. From these texts it is clear that it is not correct for a woman to lead a man or men in prayers.” (al-Muhallaa, part 2, Salaat al-Jamaa’ah).

‘Ali ibn Sulaymaan al-Mardaawi al-Hanbali (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: “With regard to his saying ‘It is not right for a woman to lead a man in prayer’, and this applies whatever the case.” (Al-Insaaf, part 2, Baab Salaat al-Jamaa’ah).

And Allaah knows best.

Islam Q&A
Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid

Imam for sisters praying in congregation

Question:
Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu ya Shaykh;
Is it permissible (or obligatory) for sisters to pray in Jama‘a (with a leader) if there are no brothers? I’ve heard different views on this.
Jazakumullahi khairan
wassalamu alaikum

Answer:

wa alaikum us-salaam wa-rahmat ullaahi wa-barakaatuh

Praise be to Allaah.

It is permissible for women to pray in congregation among themselves. Their leader should stand in the middle of the row according to the narration regarding Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) which indicates that she used to lead women in prayer and would stand with them in the middle of the row. This has been narrated by ‘Abdur Razzaq in Al-Musannaf 3/141 and Daraqutni 1/404, and is authentic due to evidences for it.

Similarly Umm Al-Hasan narrated that she saw Umm Salmah (may Allaah be pleased with her) leading women in prayer while she stood in the middle of their row. This has been narrated by Ibn Abee Shaybah 2/88 and is also authentic due to other supporting evidences.

Ibn Qudamah has quoted the difference of opinion on whether congregation for women is recommended, and then says about their leader: “The one who leads them should stand in the middle of the row. We do not know of a difference of opinion on this among those who support that one women may lead others in congregation. Since it is recommended for the women to be covered, ….. standing in the middle of the row makes it a better covering for her from the sides.”(Al-Mughni, 2/202)

The author of Al-Muhadhdhab (4/295) says: “It is sunnah that the leader of women in congregation stand in the middle of them as narrated about ‘Aa’ishah and Umm Salmah that they lead women and stood in the middle of their row.”

For further details refer to Jaami‘ Ahkaam Al-Nisaa’ by Al-‘Adawi (1/351).

And Allaah knows what is most correct and best.


Islam Q&A
Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid

The fataawaa can be found here,

http://www.islamqa.com/index.php?ref=3760&ln=eng
http://www.islamqa.com/index.php?ref=258&ln=eng
Wa`alaykum us-salaam.

 

[al-muslimah]

:salam2:

am talking from my own experience, i think if you know more than him as such you can lead, because yes women are allowed to lead a prayer, you do not stand infront of him, women when they lead prayers only stand a step away from the rest, that is how we do it at home when we pray jama'a even with our younger(10-12yrs) brothers.(when the older males are not around)

how will you teach them if you couldnt lead them?(when the father or older male siblings are not around)

my sister teaches her 6 yrs. old the prayer by standing beside him and showing him how it is done.

Are you guys here trying to drive me crazy?srry but I dont think what you are trying to say is right, you can read previous posts and know why. We Females can not lead males even if they were young. Thankyou anyway:blackhijab:

 

[liaa]

aa... ! maybe u should teach him that u are his elder sister, he should listen to you no matter what !"beaten" lool! and maybe u are trying not to hurt his fellings, but u will only make him to become a spoiled kid who want's everyone to obey him !!he should have more respect for u and ur other , and also ur dad should teach him this!

 

[samiha]

Assalamu alaykum

I can see where you're coming from sis Lana, but I also have to point out that is not always so. I mean the fact that the child leading equates that with being the boss. Perhaps sometimes, but it also gives him a sense of responsibility I think.

I also sense that it's how you explain it to the child and what they see it as. My brother knows that even though he's leading (he's 11) that I'm still the boss in other things. And he knows that lesson pretty well alhamdulillah. If you show them that leading is just their duty being the male, then it's a different thing. Just as one day it will be their duty to look out for their mother and sister and everyone else.

Again it differs with people. Wa'Allahu Alem. Perhaps if people explained better it would be different. ANd this "bossy" attitude is not just from this one thing, it's how you raise the child, it's how you structure thier behaivor to be, the dicipline in the house also that contributes to this. You let a child go, and be spoiled, they will think they are boss.

PS. Yeah sis, make sure your brother knows the way to pray correctly and understands his duty, and that childish behaivor will invalidate his Salaah too, and that he is in front of Allah, and he is leading others and he has to perform it correctly.

ANd to remember : From Riyaad us-Saliheen:

`Aishah (May Allah be pleased with her) said: I asked the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) about random looks in Salat (prayer), and he replied, "It is something which Satan snatches from the slave's Salat.''[Al-Bukhari].

Commentary: "Pouncing'' or "snatching'' means to take away something swiftly from someone while he is not alert. When a person looks here and there in the course of Salat and does not concentrate on it, Satan avails this opportunity and spoils his Salat.

_______________________

Also I realize perhaps the boys these days are not as mature, but that should not be our excuse in educating them. From an early age they should know and acknowledge what role they play or will play in society as a Muslim and become accustomed to taking up that spot. If we dumb down their intellect and understanding capabilities then of course they wont learn, we havent attempted to teach.

I know lots of little kids back in bangladesh who learn the multiplication tables 2 years ahead of American ones, just because they think we're not up to it. I'm not degrading american curriculums, because it levels out at one point, but still...

I just mean children have to be given the room to grow, and be aided in their coming to maturity...is what i think, but i could be wholly wrong.

to Bro Al-Kashimri, akhi do you know if these fatawa apply to small boys, like under the age of 8 or so? Who when they are supposed to establish the salat but perhaps have slight issues (keeping eyes in right place! lol) ??

Because my 8 year old brother wants to lead me but I havent given him that permission yet!! Because in that I think he still needs time. (this goes for girls too)

wasalam

 

[Al-Kashmiri]

As-salaamu `alaykum.

Sister Samiha, refer back to I believe the first page, the first fatwa talks about maturity I believe? So although the hadeeth mentions a young companion who led salaah at a tender age, the scholars link it directly to maturity. I have a book on media and psychology, I remember it saying therein that at the age of about 7/8 is when children REALLY begin to understand matters. For me, everything just falls into place nicely (what the hadeeth says, the `ullemah and the psychologists).

Allaah knows best. I know some kids I couldn't imagine them leading me, you would have to sellotape their heads to their necks to prevent them from looking around like a fox lol.

Was-salaam.