I am having a dialog with a Christian who's trying to justify his logic in his belief in the idea of Jesus (pbu) being crucified and dying for the sins of mankind.
He seems to believe there's logic in the above somehow by further questioning the justice of God as he sees it prevailing on earth.
I have questioned the man's logic by asking how can this god be a "JUST" god by subjecting a totally innocent man (Jesus) to suffer such a grousome death while crucified on the cross so just this god can justify himself forgiving the sins of mankind??!! When I stressed that such an idea beggs to adapt the very definition of "Lunacy" and that it defies any sane logic, this person responded that by the same token:
Although I see serious and apparent flaws in this man's logic, here's how I have selected to answer his question.
I am presenting Allah Himself to answer this delimma for our Christian friend.
First; the verses start from 18:60 in the Quran.. But I don't want to confuse you. Basically Moses and his attendant were travelling by sea when they ran into "The Wise Man."
so from 18:65 you can read:
018.065
YUSUFALI: So they found one of Our servants, on whom We had bestowed Mercy from Ourselves and whom We had taught knowledge from Our own Presence.
PICKTHAL: Then found they one of Our slaves, unto whom We had given mercy from Us, and had taught him knowledge from Our presence.
SHAKIR: Then they found one from among Our servants whom We had granted mercy from Us and whom We had taught knowledge from Ourselves.
018.066
YUSUFALI: Moses said to him: "May I follow thee, on the footing that thou teach me something of the (Higher) Truth which thou hast been taught?"
PICKTHAL: Moses said unto him: May I follow thee, to the end that thou mayst teach me right conduct of that which thou hast been taught?
SHAKIR: Musa said to him: Shall I follow you on condition that you should teach me right knowledge of what you have been taught?
018.067
YUSUFALI: (The other) said: "Verily thou wilt not be able to have patience with me!"
PICKTHAL: He said: Lo! thou canst not bear with me.
SHAKIR: He said: Surely you cannot have patience with me
018.068
YUSUFALI: "And how canst thou have patience about things about which thy understanding is not complete?"
PICKTHAL: How canst thou bear with that whereof thou canst not compass any knowledge?
SHAKIR: And how can you have patience in that of which you have not got a comprehensive knowledge?
018.069
YUSUFALI: Moses said: "Thou wilt find me, if Allah so will, (truly) patient: nor shall I disobey thee in aught."
PICKTHAL: He said: Allah willing, thou shalt find me patient and I shall not in aught gainsay thee.
SHAKIR: He said: If Allah pleases, you will find me patient and I shall not disobey you in any matter.
018.070
YUSUFALI: The other said: "If then thou wouldst follow me, ask me no questions about anything until I myself speak to thee concerning it."
PICKTHAL: He said: Well, if thou go with me, ask me not concerning aught till I myself make mention of it unto thee.
SHAKIR: He said: If you would follow me, then do not question me about any thing until I myself speak to you about it
018.071
YUSUFALI: So they both proceeded: until, when they were in the boat, he scuttled it. Said Moses: "Hast thou scuttled it in order to drown those in it? Truly a strange thing hast thou done!"
PICKTHAL: So they twain set out till, when they were in the ship, he made a hole therein. (Moses) said: Hast thou made a hole therein to drown the folk thereof? Thou verily hast done a dreadful thing.
SHAKIR: So they went (their way) until when they embarked in the boat he made a hole in it. (Musa) said: Have you made a hole in it to drown its inmates? Certainly you have done a grievous thing.
018.072
YUSUFALI: He answered: "Did I not tell thee that thou canst have no patience with me?"
PICKTHAL: He said: Did I not tell thee that thou couldst not bear with me?
SHAKIR: He said: Did I not say that you will not be able to have patience with me?
018.073
YUSUFALI: Moses said: "Rebuke me not for forgetting, nor grieve me by raising difficulties in my case."
PICKTHAL: (Moses) said: Be not wroth with me that I forgot, and be not hard upon me for my fault.
SHAKIR: He said: Blame me not for what I forgot, and do not constrain me to a difficult thing in my affair.
018.074
YUSUFALI: Then they proceeded: until, when they met a young man, he slew him. Moses said: "Hast thou slain an innocent person who had slain none? Truly a foul (unheard of) thing hast thou done!"
PICKTHAL: So they twain journeyed on till, when they met a lad, he slew him. (Moses) said: What! Hast thou slain an innocent soul who hath slain no man? Verily thou hast done a horrid thing.
SHAKIR: So they went on until, when they met a boy, he slew him. (Musa) said: Have you slain an innocent person otherwise than for manslaughter? Certainly you have done an evil thing.
018.075
YUSUFALI: He answered: "Did I not tell thee that thou canst have no patience with me?"
PICKTHAL: He said: Did I not tell thee that thou couldst not bear with me?
SHAKIR: He said: Did I not say to you that you will not be able to have patience with me?
018.076
YUSUFALI: (Moses) said: "If ever I ask thee about anything after this, keep me not in thy company: then wouldst thou have received (full) excuse from my side."
PICKTHAL: (Moses) said: If I ask thee after this concerning aught, keep not company with me. Thou hast received an excuse from me.
SHAKIR: He said: If I ask you about anything after this, keep me not in your company; indeed you shall have (then) found an excuse in my case.
018.077
YUSUFALI: Then they proceeded: until, when they came to the inhabitants of a town, they asked them for food, but they refused them hospitality. They found there a wall on the point of falling down, but he set it up straight. (Moses) said: "If thou hadst wished, surely thou couldst have exacted some recompense for it!"
PICKTHAL: So they twain journeyed on till, when they came unto the folk of a certain township, they asked its folk for food, but they refused to make them guests. And they found therein a wall upon the point of falling into ruin, and he repaired it. (Moses) said: If thou hadst wished, thou couldst have taken payment for it.
SHAKIR: So they went on until when they came to the people of a town, they asked them for food, but they refused to entertain them as guests. Then they found in it a wall which was on the point of falling, so he put it into a right state. (Musa) said: If you had pleased, you might certainly have taken a recompense for it.
018.078
YUSUFALI: He answered: "This is the parting between me and thee: now will I tell thee the interpretation of (those things) over which thou wast unable to hold patience.
PICKTHAL: He said: This is the parting between thee and me! I will announce unto thee the interpretation of that thou couldst not bear with patience.
SHAKIR: He said: This shall be separation between me and you; now I will inform you of the significance of that with which you could not have patience.
018.079
YUSUFALI: "As for the boat, it belonged to certain men in dire want: they plied on the water: I but wished to render it unserviceable, for there was after them a certain king who seized on every boat by force.
PICKTHAL: As for the ship, it belonged to poor people working on the river, and I wished to mar it, for there was a king behind them who is taking every ship by force.
SHAKIR: As for the boat, it belonged to (some) poor men who worked on the river and I wished that I should damage it, and there was behind them a king who seized every boat by force.
018.080
YUSUFALI: "As for the youth, his parents were people of Faith, and we feared that he would grieve them by obstinate rebellion and ingratitude (to Allah and man).
PICKTHAL: And as for the lad, his parents were believers and we feared lest he should oppress them by rebellion and disbelief.
SHAKIR: And as for the boy, his parents were believers and we feared lest he should make disobedience and ingratitude to come upon them:
018.081
YUSUFALI: "So we desired that their Lord would give them in exchange (a son) better in purity (of conduct) and closer in affection.
PICKTHAL: And we intended that their Lord should change him for them for one better in purity and nearer to mercy.
SHAKIR: So we desired that their Lord might give them in his place one better than him in purity and nearer to having compassion.
018.082
YUSUFALI: "As for the wall, it belonged to two youths, orphans, in the Town; there was, beneath it, a buried treasure, to which they were entitled: their father had been a righteous man: So thy Lord desired that they should attain their age of full strength and get out their treasure - a mercy (and favour) from thy Lord. I did it not of my own accord. Such is the interpretation of (those things) over which thou wast unable to hold patience."
PICKTHAL: And as for the wall, it belonged to two orphan boys in the city, and there was beneath it a treasure belonging to them, and their father had been righteous, and thy Lord intended that they should come to their full strength and should bring forth their treasure as a mercy from their Lord; and I did it not upon my own command. Such is the interpretation of that wherewith thou couldst not bear.
SHAKIR: And as for the wall, it belonged to two orphan boys in the city, and there was beneath it a treasure belonging to them, and their father was a righteous man; so your Lord desired that they should attain their maturity and take out their treasure, a mercy from your Lord, and I did not do it of my own accord. This is the significance of that with which you could not have patience.
He seems to believe there's logic in the above somehow by further questioning the justice of God as he sees it prevailing on earth.
I have questioned the man's logic by asking how can this god be a "JUST" god by subjecting a totally innocent man (Jesus) to suffer such a grousome death while crucified on the cross so just this god can justify himself forgiving the sins of mankind??!! When I stressed that such an idea beggs to adapt the very definition of "Lunacy" and that it defies any sane logic, this person responded that by the same token:
Although I see serious and apparent flaws in this man's logic, here's how I have selected to answer his question.
I am presenting Allah Himself to answer this delimma for our Christian friend.
First; the verses start from 18:60 in the Quran.. But I don't want to confuse you. Basically Moses and his attendant were travelling by sea when they ran into "The Wise Man."
so from 18:65 you can read:
018.065
YUSUFALI: So they found one of Our servants, on whom We had bestowed Mercy from Ourselves and whom We had taught knowledge from Our own Presence.
PICKTHAL: Then found they one of Our slaves, unto whom We had given mercy from Us, and had taught him knowledge from Our presence.
SHAKIR: Then they found one from among Our servants whom We had granted mercy from Us and whom We had taught knowledge from Ourselves.
018.066
YUSUFALI: Moses said to him: "May I follow thee, on the footing that thou teach me something of the (Higher) Truth which thou hast been taught?"
PICKTHAL: Moses said unto him: May I follow thee, to the end that thou mayst teach me right conduct of that which thou hast been taught?
SHAKIR: Musa said to him: Shall I follow you on condition that you should teach me right knowledge of what you have been taught?
018.067
YUSUFALI: (The other) said: "Verily thou wilt not be able to have patience with me!"
PICKTHAL: He said: Lo! thou canst not bear with me.
SHAKIR: He said: Surely you cannot have patience with me
018.068
YUSUFALI: "And how canst thou have patience about things about which thy understanding is not complete?"
PICKTHAL: How canst thou bear with that whereof thou canst not compass any knowledge?
SHAKIR: And how can you have patience in that of which you have not got a comprehensive knowledge?
018.069
YUSUFALI: Moses said: "Thou wilt find me, if Allah so will, (truly) patient: nor shall I disobey thee in aught."
PICKTHAL: He said: Allah willing, thou shalt find me patient and I shall not in aught gainsay thee.
SHAKIR: He said: If Allah pleases, you will find me patient and I shall not disobey you in any matter.
018.070
YUSUFALI: The other said: "If then thou wouldst follow me, ask me no questions about anything until I myself speak to thee concerning it."
PICKTHAL: He said: Well, if thou go with me, ask me not concerning aught till I myself make mention of it unto thee.
SHAKIR: He said: If you would follow me, then do not question me about any thing until I myself speak to you about it
018.071
YUSUFALI: So they both proceeded: until, when they were in the boat, he scuttled it. Said Moses: "Hast thou scuttled it in order to drown those in it? Truly a strange thing hast thou done!"
PICKTHAL: So they twain set out till, when they were in the ship, he made a hole therein. (Moses) said: Hast thou made a hole therein to drown the folk thereof? Thou verily hast done a dreadful thing.
SHAKIR: So they went (their way) until when they embarked in the boat he made a hole in it. (Musa) said: Have you made a hole in it to drown its inmates? Certainly you have done a grievous thing.
018.072
YUSUFALI: He answered: "Did I not tell thee that thou canst have no patience with me?"
PICKTHAL: He said: Did I not tell thee that thou couldst not bear with me?
SHAKIR: He said: Did I not say that you will not be able to have patience with me?
018.073
YUSUFALI: Moses said: "Rebuke me not for forgetting, nor grieve me by raising difficulties in my case."
PICKTHAL: (Moses) said: Be not wroth with me that I forgot, and be not hard upon me for my fault.
SHAKIR: He said: Blame me not for what I forgot, and do not constrain me to a difficult thing in my affair.
018.074
YUSUFALI: Then they proceeded: until, when they met a young man, he slew him. Moses said: "Hast thou slain an innocent person who had slain none? Truly a foul (unheard of) thing hast thou done!"
PICKTHAL: So they twain journeyed on till, when they met a lad, he slew him. (Moses) said: What! Hast thou slain an innocent soul who hath slain no man? Verily thou hast done a horrid thing.
SHAKIR: So they went on until, when they met a boy, he slew him. (Musa) said: Have you slain an innocent person otherwise than for manslaughter? Certainly you have done an evil thing.
018.075
YUSUFALI: He answered: "Did I not tell thee that thou canst have no patience with me?"
PICKTHAL: He said: Did I not tell thee that thou couldst not bear with me?
SHAKIR: He said: Did I not say to you that you will not be able to have patience with me?
018.076
YUSUFALI: (Moses) said: "If ever I ask thee about anything after this, keep me not in thy company: then wouldst thou have received (full) excuse from my side."
PICKTHAL: (Moses) said: If I ask thee after this concerning aught, keep not company with me. Thou hast received an excuse from me.
SHAKIR: He said: If I ask you about anything after this, keep me not in your company; indeed you shall have (then) found an excuse in my case.
018.077
YUSUFALI: Then they proceeded: until, when they came to the inhabitants of a town, they asked them for food, but they refused them hospitality. They found there a wall on the point of falling down, but he set it up straight. (Moses) said: "If thou hadst wished, surely thou couldst have exacted some recompense for it!"
PICKTHAL: So they twain journeyed on till, when they came unto the folk of a certain township, they asked its folk for food, but they refused to make them guests. And they found therein a wall upon the point of falling into ruin, and he repaired it. (Moses) said: If thou hadst wished, thou couldst have taken payment for it.
SHAKIR: So they went on until when they came to the people of a town, they asked them for food, but they refused to entertain them as guests. Then they found in it a wall which was on the point of falling, so he put it into a right state. (Musa) said: If you had pleased, you might certainly have taken a recompense for it.
018.078
YUSUFALI: He answered: "This is the parting between me and thee: now will I tell thee the interpretation of (those things) over which thou wast unable to hold patience.
PICKTHAL: He said: This is the parting between thee and me! I will announce unto thee the interpretation of that thou couldst not bear with patience.
SHAKIR: He said: This shall be separation between me and you; now I will inform you of the significance of that with which you could not have patience.
018.079
YUSUFALI: "As for the boat, it belonged to certain men in dire want: they plied on the water: I but wished to render it unserviceable, for there was after them a certain king who seized on every boat by force.
PICKTHAL: As for the ship, it belonged to poor people working on the river, and I wished to mar it, for there was a king behind them who is taking every ship by force.
SHAKIR: As for the boat, it belonged to (some) poor men who worked on the river and I wished that I should damage it, and there was behind them a king who seized every boat by force.
018.080
YUSUFALI: "As for the youth, his parents were people of Faith, and we feared that he would grieve them by obstinate rebellion and ingratitude (to Allah and man).
PICKTHAL: And as for the lad, his parents were believers and we feared lest he should oppress them by rebellion and disbelief.
SHAKIR: And as for the boy, his parents were believers and we feared lest he should make disobedience and ingratitude to come upon them:
018.081
YUSUFALI: "So we desired that their Lord would give them in exchange (a son) better in purity (of conduct) and closer in affection.
PICKTHAL: And we intended that their Lord should change him for them for one better in purity and nearer to mercy.
SHAKIR: So we desired that their Lord might give them in his place one better than him in purity and nearer to having compassion.
018.082
YUSUFALI: "As for the wall, it belonged to two youths, orphans, in the Town; there was, beneath it, a buried treasure, to which they were entitled: their father had been a righteous man: So thy Lord desired that they should attain their age of full strength and get out their treasure - a mercy (and favour) from thy Lord. I did it not of my own accord. Such is the interpretation of (those things) over which thou wast unable to hold patience."
PICKTHAL: And as for the wall, it belonged to two orphan boys in the city, and there was beneath it a treasure belonging to them, and their father had been righteous, and thy Lord intended that they should come to their full strength and should bring forth their treasure as a mercy from their Lord; and I did it not upon my own command. Such is the interpretation of that wherewith thou couldst not bear.
SHAKIR: And as for the wall, it belonged to two orphan boys in the city, and there was beneath it a treasure belonging to them, and their father was a righteous man; so your Lord desired that they should attain their maturity and take out their treasure, a mercy from your Lord, and I did not do it of my own accord. This is the significance of that with which you could not have patience.
