ARE WE RESPONSIBLE?

Frank_H_Smith

New Revert 2010
If we vote for a politician are we responsible for the actions and votes of that politician? If we vote for a president who orders troops into Muslim Countries and this results in the death of Muslims are we responsible?
 

arzafar

Junior Member
yes i think so.
but tbh your vote doesn't make any difference. you don't have a choice really. if the other candidate had won he would have done the same thing. the main policies of all mainstream parties are the same, they only differ on modalities.
However, your tax money does make you responsible for your govt's actions if it is used against innocent people (Muslims, or otherwise).
That's why muslims, if they have the choice, should not settle in lands under kaffir rule.
 

Elise

Junior Member
No I don't think so. Not if there were no signs beforehand. Not going in on the America situation here, I mean over all. Representative government does represent the will of the people, but in the end they're just men who can lie and cheat just as good as anyone. How often are electionary promises broken? Too often.
Your question immediately reminded me of the philosophe Rousseau:
'People might ultimately vote themselves into slavery by electing unworthy representatives.'
 

Abdul25

Logical Believer
yes i think so.
but tbh your vote doesn't make any difference. you don't have a choice really. if the other candidate had won he would have done the same thing. the main policies of all mainstream parties are the same, they only differ on modalities.
However, your tax money does make you responsible for your govt's actions if it is used against innocent people (Muslims, or otherwise).
That's why muslims, if they have the choice, should not settle in lands under kaffir rule.

What about living in Pakistan and paying tax money which is used to kill Muslims and spread sectarian violence and many bad things that our govt is doing|?

who is responsible for that me who pays the tax or the government?
or should i become tax thief in order to be on safe side?
would it not be a crime?
 

arzafar

Junior Member
No I don't think so. Not if there were no signs beforehand. Not going in on the America situation here, I mean over all. Representative government does represent the will of the people, but in the end they're just men who can lie and cheat just as good as anyone. How often are electionary promises broken? Too often.
Your question immediately reminded me of the philosophe Rousseau:
'People might ultimately vote themselves into slavery by electing unworthy representatives.'

nice! that's why democracy is flawed. consent can be 'manufactured'.

"Democracy substitutes election by the incompetent many for appointment by the corrupt few." Shaw

and this must be the best

"Democracy is the recurrent suspicion that more than half of the people are right more than half the time."
 

weakslave

Junior Member
It is very good to be critical, especially when it is gray matters like this.

Nowadays, everything seems to have two explanations hence the opinions for and against. While I don't think these matters are considered to affect the base of our 'aqeedah, except that one cannot help but wonder: is this really the right thing to do?

For example, there are many actions we carry out during the day and we can never be sure whether we have benefited or misguided another human being. Something as simple as posting a link to a "kafir" website. For example, we know when we link to an islamic website, the individuals visiting these links will never see anything displeasing to Allaah.

Now I put a link to youtube that I share with friends, Quraan recitation or otherwise. First of all there are advertisements that may entice a person to explore certain things, then there are other "related videos" which may appear that are completely inappropriate. Imagine a person with good intentions clicks on the link, sees a video that shows something which displeases Allaah, clicks on it, then that leads him to more videos and before he realizes what he has done, he had just spent the last four hours angering Allaah subhanahu wa talaa. All because of a seemingly harmless, and indeed apparently beneficial link.

Are we accountable in front of Allaah subhanahu wa talaa? No one can judge for Allaah, but if there is a possibility of being responsible then we can imagine just how many sins we might accumulate from this simple act.

Voting is even more questionable than this. When you vote, you are declaring that you agree with all of that person's party's ideas and beliefs. Sure when questioned you might indicate you only agree partially with some of their ideology, but that is not what voting is about. It is a package deal. Look at the contrary: by not voting you are declaring that you do not support any of the parties nor their ideas, and to me I have yet to find the possibility of falling into sin by not voting.

As a muslim, I know I amass enough sins in a day equivalent to all the sins committed by all the 10 rightly guided companions throughout their lives as muslims. I don't need a source of sin, I need a source of good deeds!

The hadith is well known and has been quoted many times here: whoever leaves something for the sake of Allaah, Allaah will reward him with that which is better.

Seriously think about this matter. If one truly believes, after research and with an open mind, that this will never even present the possibility of falling into even one sin, then it will never damage your deed credit. But if it does, may Allaah help us all and forgive us our shortcomings, He is Al-Ghafoor, Ar-Raheem.

And Allaah knows best.
 

Elise

Junior Member
nice! that's why democracy is flawed. consent can be 'manufactured'.

"Democracy substitutes election by the incompetent many for appointment by the corrupt few." Shaw

and this must be the best

"Democracy is the recurrent suspicion that more than half of the people are right more than half the time."

Good ones :) I like the one of Shaw best. From whom is the lower statement?
 

arzafar

Junior Member
What about living in Pakistan and paying tax money which is used to kill Muslims and spread sectarian violence and many bad things that our govt is doing|?

who is responsible for that me who pays the tax or the government?
or should i become tax thief in order to be on safe side?
would it not be a crime?

and as far as taxes in Pakistan are concerned. vast majority of Pakistanis don't pay their taxes. FACT! the govt spends far more than it collects from taxes.

The military operations, defence budget is financed by US/NATO Aid, so Pakistani taxpayers dont need to worry. However, zakat money is better if you give your own instead giving it up to the govt who you know is corrupt.

However there is a lot of religious freedom in Pakistan. I think there are more religions here than anywhere else.
 

arzafar

Junior Member
Good ones :) I like the one of Shaw best. From whom is the lower statement?

Democracy is the recurrent suspicion that more than half of the people are right more than half the time.
E. B. White, New Yorker, July 3, 1944
US author & humorist (1899 - 1985)
 

Abdul25

Logical Believer
and as far as taxes in Pakistan are concerned. vast majority of Pakistanis don't pay their taxes. FACT! the govt spends far more than it collects from taxes.

The military operations, defence budget is financed by US/NATO Aid, so Pakistani taxpayers dont need to worry. However, zakat money is better if you give your own instead giving it up to the govt who you know is corrupt.

However there is a lot of religious freedom in Pakistan. I think there are more religions here than anywhere else.

Well i should not get into a debate but your logic is full of flaws..

yeah in Pakistan many religious people each having his own masjid
lolz.

peace.
 

kayleigh

Junior Member
Your vote counts, but not as much as some people like to think. If the politician you voted for said they planned on invading a Muslim country (or any country for that matter), then IMO you'd be a tool for voting for that person. But even if you don't vote for them your taxes pay for the invasion.
 

adanshai

Junior Member
Ruling on democracy and elections and participating in that system

What is the ruling on democracy and taking a leadership role in parliment or other levels of the democratical government? What is the ruling regarding voting for someone in democracy? How was the islamic state organized, and governed in the classical times?.


Praise be to Allaah.

Firstly:

Democracy is a man-made system, meaning rule by the people for the people. Thus it is contrary to Islam, because rule is for Allaah, the Most High, the Almighty, and it is not permissible to give legislative rights to any human being, no matter who he is.

It says in Mawsoo’at al-Adyaan wa’l-Madhaahib al-Mu’aasirah (2/1066, 1067):

Undoubtedly the democratic system is one of the modern forms of shirk, in terms of obedience and following, or legislation, as it denies the sovereignty of the Creator and His absolute right to issue laws, and ascribes that right to human beings. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“You do not worship besides Him but only names which you have named (forged) — you and your fathers — for which Allaah has sent down no authority. The command (or the judgement) is for none but Allaah. He has commanded that you worship none but Him (i.e. His Monotheism); that is the (true) straight religion, but most men know not”

[Yoosuf 12:40]

“The decision is only for Allaah”

[al-An’aam 6:57]

End quote.

This has been discussed in detail in the answer to question no. 98134.

Secondly:

The one who understands the true nature of the democratic system and the ruling thereon, then he nominates himself or someone else (for election) is approving of this system, and is working with it, is in grave danger, because the democratic system is contrary to Islam and approving of it and participating in it are actions that imply apostasy and being beyond the pale of Islam.

But as for the one who nominates himself or nominates others in this system in order to join the parliament and enjoin good and forbid evil, and establish proof against them, and reduce its evil and corruption as much as he can, so that people of corruption and disbelievers in Allaah will not have free rein to spread mischief in the land and spoil people’s worldly interests and religious commitment, this is a matter that is subject to ijtihaad, according to the interests that it is hoped will be served by that.

Some scholars are even of the view that getting involved in these elections is obligatory.

Shaykh Muhammad ibn ‘Uthaymeen (may Allaah have mercy on him) was asked about the ruling on elections, and he replied: I think that elections are obligatory; we should appoint the one who we think is good, because if the good people abstain, who will take their place? Evil people will take their place, or neutral people in whom there is neither good nor evil, but they follow everyone who makes noise. So we have no choice but to choose those who we think are fit.

If someone were to say: We chose someone but most of the parliament are not like that,

We say: It does not matter. If Allaah blesses this one person and enables him to speak the truth in this parliament, he will undoubtedly have an effect. But what we need is to be sincere towards Allaah and the problem is that we rely too much on physical means and we do not listen to what Allaah says. So nominate the one who you think is good, and put your trust in Allaah. End quote.

From Liqaa’aat al-Baab al-Maftooh, no. 210

http://www.ibnothaimeen.com/all/sound/article_16230.shtml

The scholars of the Standing Committee for Issuing Fatwas were asked:

Is it permissible to vote in elections and nominate people for them? Please note that our country is ruled according to something other than that which Allaah revealed?

They replied:

It is not permissible for a Muslim to nominate himself in the hope that he can become part of a system which rules according to something other than that which Allaah has revealed and operates according to something other than the sharee’ah of Islam. It is not permissible for a Muslim to vote for him or for anyone else who will work in that government, unless the one who nominates himself or those who vote for him hope that by getting involved in that they will be able to change the system to one that operates according to the sharee’ah of Islam, and they are using this as a means to overcome the system of government, provided that the one who nominates himself will not accept any position after being elected except one that does not go against Islamic sharee’ah. End quote.

Shaykh ‘Abd al-‘Azeez ibn Baaz, Shaykh ‘Abd al-Razzaaq ‘Afeefi, Shaykh ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Ghadyaan, Shaykh ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Qa’ood.

Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah (23/406, 407

They were also asked:

As you know, here in Algeria we have what are called legislative elections. There are parties which call for Islamic rule, and there are others that do not want Islamic rule. What is the ruling on one who votes for something other than Islamic rule even though he prays?

They replied:

The Muslims in a country that is not governed according to Islamic sharee’ah should do their utmost and strive as much as they can to bring about rule according to Islamic sharee’ah, and they should unite in helping the party which is known will rule in accordance with Islamic sharee’ah. As for supporting one who calls for non-implementation of Islamic sharee’ah, that is not permissible, rather it may lead a person to kufr, because Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And so judge (you O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) among them by what Allaah has revealed and follow not their vain desires, but beware of them lest they turn you (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) far away from some of that which Allaah has sent down to you. And if they turn away, then know that Allaah’s Will is to punish them for some sins of theirs. And truly, most of men are Faasiqoon (rebellious and disobedient to Allaah).

50. Do they then seek the judgement of (the days of) Ignorance? And who is better in judgement than Allaah for a people who have firm Faith”

[al-Maa'idah 5:49-50].

Hence when Allaah stated that those who do not rule in accordance with Islamic sharee’ah are guilty of kufr, He warned against helping them or taking them as allies or close friends, and He commanded the believers to fear Him if they were truly believers. He says (interpretation of the meaning):

“O you who believe! Take not as Awliyaa’ (protectors and helpers) those who take your religion as a mockery and fun from among those who received the Scripture (Jews and Christians) before you, and nor from among the disbelievers; and fear Allaah if you indeed are true believers”

[al-Maa’idah 5:57]

And Allaah is the Source of strength. May Allaah send blessings and peace upon our Prophet Muhammad and his family and companions. End quote.

Standing Committee for Academic Research and Issuing Fatwas

Shaykh ‘Abd al-‘Azeez ibn Baaz, Shaykh ‘Abd al-Razzaaq ‘Afeefi, Shaykh ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Ghadyaan

Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah (1/373).



Islam Q&A
 

arzafar

Junior Member
Well i should not get into a debate but your logic is full of flaws..

yeah in Pakistan many religious people each having his own masjid
lolz.

peace.

aise bologay to kon aaiga? :biggrin:

In Pakistan, the tax doesnt contribute to the economy as much as elsewhere. Most of the taxes are indirect. (gst+ vat)
Direct taxes are very limited in paksitan. Most people dont show their true earinings. Besides agriculture is not taxed.
mein tu kheti baari karne ka soch raha hun. Allah kie zameen se ugao aur maze uraao, na koi paisa. na koi tension.

With indirect taxes you hve no option. you have to buy petrol, food, call people via mobile or landline. The prophet himself traded with non muslims and the non muslims earned money too. so if that money is used against Muslims later on, the blame is not on the person.

Direct taxation is where the problem lies imho. direct tax mean you're paying money directly to the govt.

Moreover, as i mentioned earlier, combining all the taxes in Pakistan is not enough to pay the interest on all our loans. then you have govt expenditures, defense and development. So we have to ring world bank, IMF, white house and (at times when US has ditched us) Riyadh.
 

adanshai

Junior Member
Can anyone tell how much tax a muslim government can impose on its citizens, and taxation on food, medicine, land is it permissible in Islam? I have tried to find about this but in vain.
 
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