Can I talk to Allah SWT about anything?

ahmed_indian · Jun 17, 2009

Amina 1 said:
:salam2:

I feel that cemophora and ishmael 7 may be the same person or maybe they know each other. Hard to remove someone if the name keeps changing. whoever they are I feel sorry for them.

could they be christians trying to confuse muslims of weak faith with their ill thoughts?

may Allah forgive for my suspicion if i am wrong

Der Fragende · Jun 17, 2009

:salam2:

Thank you for your reference to the excellent article that demonstrates that Allah directs us to treat slaves really well. But if that is the case, and if the Quran is so clear on the acceptability of slavery, why have (admittedly belatedly) all of the islamic countries now outlawed slavery? Is it because of the corrupting influence of the west? Do you think that if it weren't for that corrupting influence we could go back to the good old days and reinstitute slavery?

I don't see any problems, if the slaves would be treated as described.
As a "slave" your job would be like nowadays, e.g. butler.
The conception of slavery in Islam and the concept of slavery in the West are poles apart.
Another point is, that you will be rewarded, if you let the slave be free.
That's a motivation for freeing the slaves.

Okay, let's assume, as you say, that you are trying to convince me that it is harmless to walk in an area that is infested with dangerous chemicals. One way that you could convince me is perhaps to perform a scientific analysis of a sample from the area, and show me that the sample is cyanide. Another way, perhaps, is to toss a mouse into the area and show me that it dies a horrible death (I would prefer the first approach!). A third way is to show me a book that was compiled 1300 (or so) years ago from hearsay upon hearsay, that claims that the area is infested with dangerous chemicals, and ask me to 'believe' that what the book says is true. I do not find that third method of proof particularly convincing. And, apparently, neither do you, because if you did, you would not be so afraid of subjecting your belief to a scientific test.

1. If it so, there would be different versions of the Qur'an.
Why isn't it so?

2. If you think that after, I assume, not dealing with religions at all, it's okay.
I mean, God gave us a free will. If you choose to belive in x, y oder z, that's fine with me. Now, what do you want in this forum, where people can login to learn about Islam?

3. Where do you know from, that she is afraid of "a scientific test"?
Does she said that?
Of what does this "scientific test" consist?

Either the user "cemophora" and "ishmael7" say what their purpose are and what exactly they want to know, or the thopic can be closed.

If we can't communicate with each other, problems won't be solved as easily as they could.

I hope, that I didn't insult anybody and sorry for my bad post.

:wasalam:

safiya58 · Jun 17, 2009

cemophora said:
Hi Safiya58,

Let's analyze your argument, where you state:

"you know why the brother and every other believer would never test Allah? bec we know without any small doubt that what we believe in is nothing but the truth and when you are convinced sth is true why you need to test it...? this is as stupid like when I try to convince you it is harmless to walk in an area which is infested chemical... well would you then try it and walk?"

Okay, let's assume, as you say, that you are trying to convince me that it is harmless to walk in an area that is infested with dangerous chemicals. One way that you could convince me is perhaps to perform a scientific analysis of a sample from the area, and show me that the sample is cyanide. Another way, perhaps, is to toss a mouse into the area and show me that it dies a horrible death (I would prefer the first approach!). A third way is to show me a book that was compiled 1300 (or so) years ago from hearsay upon hearsay, that claims that the area is infested with dangerous chemicals, and ask me to 'believe' that what the book says is true. I do not find that third method of proof particularly convincing. And, apparently, neither do you, because if you did, you would not be so afraid of subjecting your belief to a scientific test.

You ask me what I believe. I do not believe at all, I think. And what I think is true is what I can test and perceive with my own senses. I do not know (and obviously cannot give you a guaranty) about what will happen after death. I am not afraid to say that I do not know this. My hypothesis about what will happen is that after death is that you (and I) will have no conscious existence. I know no one whose consciousness has existed after death. Do you? If so, please have them contact me, so that my hypothesis can be disproven. Every hypothesis about reality that I think is true is testable, and I am willing to be proved wrong. Are you? If so, why are you unwilling to put your beliefs to the test?

hi again,

it is ok you do not have to believe what I believe and I also do not believe in what you believe. I have my religion and you got yours. and I`m not only convinced that my believe is true I`m more than just conviced I don´t need any miracles to be satisfied. if I Allah would talk to me through an angel this would not make my belive increase. it would still stay the same. afraid? why you think I am....? ok let us just proof it then like you want...... you can ask anything you want to ask...

so you would not believe me when I would trust a book which is 1400 years old and warn you not to walk in this are which is according to the book infested chemical".... but would you still dare to walk in it even you don´t believe...? or would you be a lil scared and ask yourself "what if..."

and when you only believe in everything which can be proofed then it is illogical to say there is no existence after death... cuz where is the proof for it? it may can not be proofen wright but it also can not be proofen wrong! and when it is like that you can not claim there is no existence after....

if you want signs from Allah which proof the validity of HIS holy book (Quran) there are many... you can check them out in the link below when you are not afraid for the truth...:

http://www.quranmiracles.com/

no disrespect brother but I can not understand how can you deny your own Creator? A life without believing in One All- Mighty, loving and carring God have to be a sad life... do you like justice? I assume that you do... do you hate injustice? I assume that you do... we all human beeings have a requirement for justice... and like our thirst for water proofs that water is existing our yearning for justice proofs that the ALL-Just Allah is existing.... otherwise there would not be a compensation between victims and offenders and this would not be just.... you believe only in everything which you can preceive with your senses but there are so many things we can not see but they are still existing... like electricity, nuclear radiation,magnetism, intelligence, small tiny microbes.... and so on.... Allah is known by reasoning... just look at HIS creation and you will see everywhere HIS signs... I promise

Der Fragende · Jun 17, 2009

cemophora said:
Der Fragende writes:

"If it so, there would be different versions of the Qur'an.
Why isn't it so?"

There were many versions of the Quran in the early years of Islam. The traditional story (see, e.g., Bukhari's account of the narration of Anas bin Malik), was that different people had different memories and writings of what the Prophet may or may not have said. The third Caliph, Uthman, collected all various pieces and created a single version, and ordered the burning of all other Quranic materials. Supposedly, the only (partial) copies of the Uthman Quran that still exist are in Istanbul and Tashkent. Interestingly, however, these copies, which were supposedly made in the 7th century in Uthman's lifetime, are in the Kufic script, which did not appear until the late 8th or early 9th century. And it is a myth that all versions are the same: there are numerous differences between the Tashkent version and what is generally considered the standard Quranic text today.

:salam2:

The Collection done under the Khalifah (Caliph) Abu Bakr (ra)

Abu Bakr (ra) was a very close friend of the Prophet (pbuh). He was also his successor, not in Prophethood, but he became the Commander of the Muslims (Amirul Mukminin) after the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). During his Caliphate, a battle took place, known as the "Battle of Yamamah." In this battle, many people had memorized the Qur'an, were martyred. Abu Bakr (ra) feared that the Qur'an might not be lost. So he ordered Zayd Ibn Thabit (ra), the personal scribe of the Prophet (pbuh), to compile it. Zayd (ra) finished the job successfully.

It must be noted that even if many companions who had memorized the Qur'an were martyred, the complete Qur'an in writing already existed.

Hadith which mentions it

The following is the Hadith which mentions the collection of the Qur'an: under Abu Bakr's Caliphate:

Narrated Zaid bin Thabit Al-Ansari, one of the scribes of the Revelation: Abu Bakr sent for me after the casualties among the warriors (of the battle) of Yamama (where a great number of Qurra were killed). 'Umar was present with Abu Bakr who said: "Umar has come to me and said, the People have suffered heavy casualties on the day of (the battle of) Yamama, and I am afraid that there will be some casualties among the Qurra (those who know the Qur'an by heart) at other places, whereby a large part of the Qur'an may be lost, unless you collect it. And I am of the opinion that you should collect the Qur'an.' Abu Bakr added, 'I said to 'Umar, "How can I do something which Allah's Apostle has not done?" 'Umar said (to me) "By Allah, it is (really) a good thing". So 'Umar kept on pressing trying to persuade me to accept his proposal, till Allah opened my bosom for it and I had the same opinion as 'Umar'. (Zaid bin Thabit added 'Umar was sitting with him (Abu Bakr) and was not speaking. Abu Bakr said (to me), 'You are a wise young man and we do not suspect you (of telling lies or of forgetfulness); and you used to write the Divine Inspiration for Allah's Apostle. Therefore, look for the Qur'an and collect it (in one manuscript)'. By Allah, if he (Abu Bakr) had ordered me to shift one of the mountains (from its place) it would not have been harder for me than what he had ordered me concerning the collection of the Qur'an. I said to both of them, 'How dare you do a thing which the Prophet has not done?' Abu Bakr said, 'By Allah, it is (really) a good thing. So I kept on arguing with him about it till Allah opened my bosom for that which He had opened the bosoms of Abu Bakr and
'Umar. So I started locating the Quranic material and collecting it from parchments, scapula, leafstalks of date palms and from the memories of men (who knew it by heart). I found with Khuzaima two verses of Surah Tauba which I had not found with anybody else (and they were): 'Verily there has come to you an Apostle (Muhammad) from among yourselves. It grieves him that you should receive any injury or difficulty. He (Muhammad) is ardently anxious over you (to be rightly guided)' (9:128). Bukhari, VI, No. 201

The words of Zaid may raise some confusion: How can I do something which Allah's Apostle has not done? This doen't mean that the Qur'an was not written in the Prophet's time, but it means that that the Qur'anic was scattered and not collected into one volume. The Prophet (pbuh) didn't leave the complete Qur'an in a single volume for all the Ummah, because most of his companions had memorized it and some had their own copies. So Abu Bakr (ra) feared that the Qur'an could have been lost, and that's why he ordered for a copy to be prepared.

The Collection done under the Khalifah (Caliph) Uthman (ra)

After Abu Bakr (ra), the Caliph Umar ruled, and after the Caliph Umar, Uthman Ibn Affan was elected as Caliph. During the period of the Caliph Uthman, Islam spread to many areas. The Muslims who were not Arabs, couldn't read the Qur'an as it should have been read. They changed the meanings of the verses, and many variant readings sprung out, because the people were ignorant of Arabic. Old Arabic was written as lines, and now one can distinguish such and such alphabets easily by marks. But this was not the case in older times. That's why, the Caliph Uthman immediately told a committee of scribes to write the Qur'an in the dialect of the Quraysh, because that was how the Qur'an was revealed. When the scribes had prepared many copies from the one which Abu Bakr (ra) had compiled, each copy was sent to each city under Muslim rule. Other copies which were not from Uthman were burned. Then, from the standard copies, more copies were made and this time there were also teachers of the people to teach them how to recite the Qur'an.

Hadith which mentions it

The following is the report which mentions the above described event:

Narrated Anas bin Malik: Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman came to 'Uthman at the time when the people of Sham and the people of Iraq were waging war to conquer Arminya and Adharbijan. Hudhaifa was afraid of their (the people of Sham and Iraq) differences in the recitation of the Qur'an, so he said to 'Uthmfin, 'O chief of the Believers! Save this nation before they differ about the Book (Qur'an), as Jews and the Christians did before'. So 'Uthman sent a message to Hafsa saying, 'Send us the manuscripts of the Qur'an so that we may compile the Qur'anic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you'. Hafsa sent it to 'Uthman. 'Uthman
then ordered Zaid bin Thabit, 'Abdullah bin Az-Zubair, Sa'id bin Al-'As and 'Abdur Rahman bin Hari-bin
Hisham to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies. 'Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, 'In case you
disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the Qur'an, then write it in the dialect of Quraish as the Qur'an was revealed in their tongue'. They did so, and when they had written many copies, 'Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsa. 'Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur'anic materials whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt. Zaid bin Thabit added, 'A verse from Sura al-Ahzab was missed by me when we copied the Qur'an and I used to hear Allah's Apostle reciting it. So we searched for it and found it with Khuzaima bin Thabit Al-Ansari'. (That verse was): 'Among the Believers are men who have been true in their convenant xwith Allah' (33: 23). Bukhari, VI, No. 510

Reasons for the burning

The Christian missionaries have been openly making the allegation that Uthman (ra) ordered all copies of the Qur'an to be burnt because of the varying content. This is not true. We quote Dr. Ahmad Shafaat on this issue:

Now suppose that there were at any time any variations in the Qur'an other than those caused by scribal errors or failure of memory or due to some minor differences in script. That is, suppose that some individuals or groups deliberately held onto a text of the Qur'an that they knew was different from the one followed by others and that was closer to the original text than the one we possess. How could it then happen that from century to century and from country to country we find the same text of the Qur'an? It is said that 'Uthman, the third leader succeeding the Prophet, ordered people to burn all the texts of the Qur'an which were different from a certain text. But is it conceivable that people will submit to this order even if they thought 'Uthman's text was not the authentic text? Westerners may have the tendency to think that Muslim rulers must have always been tyrant dictators who could force the people to do anything. This is certainly not true of the early leaders of Muslims. But even if we assume that people lived in terror of their leaders, it was logistically impossible for 'Uthman to control every home. People could easily hide their various copies of the Qur'an and secretly pass them on to their descendants and through them on to us. It is self-evident and is also required by the teachings of the Qur'an that every Muslim should do his utmost to prevent the alteration or suppression of the word of God. For in passages where there are no variations alleged the Qur'an had condemned earlier nations for altering or fabricating the "divine" scripture. Thus in one such passage we read:

And woe unto those who write the scripture with their own hands and then say, "This is from God," that they may in this way obtain a small gain. Woe unto them for what their hands have written and woe unto them for what they gain thereby! (2:79).

In the following passage condemns even hiding any part of the revelation, much less altering it:

[God says:] Those who hide what We have revealed of the clear matters and of the guidance, after We have made it clear for the people, are accursed of God and accursed of those who (are entitled to) curse - except such of them as repent and amend and make manifest the truth. These it is to whom I turn in forgiveness. And I am the forgiving, the merciful (2:159-160).

Many early Muslims are expected to live up to the obligation implied in these verses even if it meant loosing their lives. For, there has never been a shortage of Muslims who have been willing to give their lives for the sake of Islam. Hence any attempt by 'Uthman or anyone else would have been met with the stiffest resistance on the part of many Muslims. But we hear of no such resistance.

And what about the text that 'Uthman promulgated? How did he arrive at that text? On the basis of what text did the first two leaders, Abu Bakr and 'Umar governed the Muslim lands before him ? What text people had been using in their daily prayers in Medina, the city of the Prophet, which consisted almost entirely of Muslims, most having seen and heard the Prophet? What text was used throughout the land during sermons before the Friday congregational prayers? How could 'Uthman change the text that had been used for twelve years before him in the presence of hundreds of companions of the Prophet who could easily detect any change to the original text and were obligated by religious principles to prevent alterations in the word of God? And why at all would he want to change it, considering that the extant text says nothing in his favor? It is also important to keep in mind that the vast Muslim world was not homogeneous. There was as much diversity of opinion as one expects from any group of people. There were even conflicts, some of them armed. 'Uthman himself had opposition from some groups, one of which actually martyred him. Had the text he promulgated been less than 100% reliable his opponents would have made it an issue and accused him of changing the word of God. But the fact is that these opponents accused him of many things but we do not have any tradition, certainly not an early reliable one, in which they accuse him of changing the word of God.

It is indeed possible that 'Uthman did promulgate one particular text and ordered others to be burnt. For differences in script and copying errors during a period of fast conversion might have resulted in many manuscripts with errors. If these manuscripts were then used to make further copies, the errors would have multiplied. The best solution was that certain authenticated copies be sent to various centers of the Muslim world and all others destroyed. The very fact that the text whose copies were sent by 'Uthman was accepted throughout the Muslim world, by both his friends and foes, and the fact that no other text has ever been put forward as an alternative to the existing text proves that the text sent by 'Uthman was the authentic one.

In addition to the multiplying number of copying errors, there was probably another reason for promulgating a standard text. Earlier we noticed two peculiarities of the Arabic language: differences in script and absence of the vowel. These also could have resulted in confusion. Steps taken by 'Uthman effectively solved the problem caused by the first peculiarity: the differences in script. His solution to the second peculiarity -- the absence of vowels -- was to send a Qari along with the copy of the Qur'an to preserve the correct reading that the hundreds of companions had learnt from the Prophet. This was clearly not a satisfactory solution. Later, at the insistence of Zayd, the Governor of Basrah (45-53 H), dots were assigned as vowel points. Then during the reign of Abdul Malik (65-85 H.) Hajjaj bin Yusuf appointed scholars to assign new symbols for vowels while dots were used to distinguish different letters that were in some words looked the same. (Dr. Ahmad Shafaat, 2000, "Journal of the Muslim Research Institute", Canada)

The Textual Variances

There were many textual variances of the Qur'an, or variant readings. These variant readings didn't concern the content of Surahs and the Qur'an, but they were differences in spellings, nouns, etc.

Acceptance of Variant Readings

Variant Readings can be accepted if they meet the following criteria for acceptance:

1. A reading with correct Arabic grammar
2. Traced back to the Prophet (pbuh)
3. Agreement with the Uthmanic text

Further more, the variant readings should also meet the following criteria for preference:

1. A reading with correct Arabic grammar
2. Agreement with the Uthmanic text
3. Reported/preferred by the majority

Further more, the variant readings can be divided as follows (taken from von Denffer's "Ulum al Qur'an"):

1. The mutawatir (transmitted by many; they include the seven well-known readings)
2. The ahad (transmitted by one, they number three, going back to the sahaba and together with the seven make up ten).
3. The shadh (exceptional; they go back to the tabi'un only)

From the above, the current text of the Qur'an (Uthmanic), is mutawatir.

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Mss/

http://www.answering-christianity.com/quran/textual.htm

http://www.answering-christianity.com/munir_munshey/introduction_to_the_quran.htm

http://www.answering-christianity.com/quran/preservation.htm

http://www.theinimitablequran.com/index.html

It's worth a click due to evidences and thorough explanations.

:wasalam:

Der Fragende · Jun 17, 2009

cemophora said:
Hi Safiya58,

Let's look at one part of your post, where you wrote:

"so you would not believe me when I would trust a book which is 1400 years old and warn you not to walk in this are which is according to the book infested chemical".... but would you still dare to walk in it even you don´t believe...? or would you be a lil scared and ask yourself "what if..."

Consider all of the prohibitions in the Old Testament and in the Quran.

Here are some from Leviticus in the Old Testament:

Harvesting the corners of a field (19:9),
Eating fruit from a young tree (19:23),
Cross-breeding livestock (19:19),
Sowing a field with mixed seed (19:19),
Shaving or getting a hair cut (19:27),
Tattoos (19:28),
Charging of interest on a loan (25:37)

And just a few from the Quran:
Music or singing (31:6)
Alcohol and gambling (2:219)
Eating pork (6:145)

Many millions of people around the world violate one or more of these prohibitions every day. Mostly without the slightest bit of fear. Do you believe that they risk being struck down with thunderbolts? Or merely that they will burn in hell (21:98)? Show me the slightest bit of evidence that anyone who has worshipped something other than Allah is (or will be) burning in hell, and I will adopt Islam immediately!

You also write:

"it is ok you do not have to believe what I believe and I also do not believe in what you believe. I have my religion and you got yours."

I do not have a religion, but that is not the point. The point is that your statement is completely un-islamic! Your are not obeying the commands of the Quran:

"Slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush." (9:5) [Unless they repent, worship, and pay a tax]

Nor of numerous Hadith, e.g.:

"Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him." Bukhari volume 9, #57

You also misunderstood me when you wrote:

"and when you only believe in everything which can be proofed then it is illogical to say there is no existence after death... cuz where is the proof for it? it may can not be proofen wright but it also can not be proofen wrong! and when it is like that you can not claim there is no existence after...."

What I said (or at least intended) was that the things that I think are true are things that are capable of proof (or disproof). The philosopher Karl Popper correctly identified 'religious beliefs' as those things that are NOT capable of disproof. There are many things that I think are true. Many of these things (such as lack of existence after death) have not been proven. But ALL of the things that I think are true are capable of being disproven. Just have someone you know who continues to exist after death contact me and I will stand corrected! On the other hand, your beliefs cannot be disproven. You somehow believe things to be true so strongly that, no matter what evidence may be presented to the contrary, you will not change your belief. So be it. But understand that yours is not rational thinking. And perhaps that is why Islam is most successful in uneducated, illiterate societies (80% of the population of islamic countries are illiterate).

safiya58 · Jun 17, 2009

hello cemophora,

No offence but you made me laugh brother....

so you think I´m not acting islamic? check this out then and you will see how strongly my words was influenced by Quran:

Allah - beginning with the name of - the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful

Proclaim, (O dear Prophet Mohammed - peace and blessings be upon him), “O disbelievers!”

Neither do I worship what you worship.

Nor do you worship Whom I worship.

And neither will I ever worship what you worship.

Nor will you worship Whom I worship.

For you is your religion, and for me is mine

from Quran surah 109! read yourself if you don´t believe me.

I know you do not believe in anything. With religion I meant lifestyle...

now you have proofen how unsuspecting you are....

you try to discredite Islam by bringing things out of context instead of considering the whole surah´s and hadith and its backrounds.... but its to your own misfortune.... if the picture you have about Islam would be correct than we the muslims would be brutal killers... remember when Salahaddin Ayyubi, may Allah be pleased with him after a hard struggle he conquered back Jerusalem and did not take revange even so he was able to do so... He give the christian population for head- money their freedom and from the poor he did not take anything...

bec Islam is teaching us strong is he who take not revange of his enemy even thoug he has the power to do so... don´t know wich hadith it was, sorry...

maybe you will think of bad examples now who act wrong and use Islam to justify their actions... but considering the war policy of the west is it not very surprising that there are some extremists..

again you showed how how unsuspecting you are....

about others... maybe Allah forgive them or He will punish them I don´t know .... I´m only responsible for my ownself not for others... this is what Islam is teaching us too.... :

From the Qur'an {That is a nation which has already passed away: there awaits it whatever it has earned, while you will have what you have earned. You will not be questioned about what they have been doing.} ~ Surat Al-Baqarah 2/141

[Lessons from this verse] We spend and waste oh-so-much time on the faults of others, yet on the enormous day we will not be asked about them. We will be asked about how we spent OUR lives. Focus on what is in YOUR control today. by Muhammad Al Shareef.

yes many of muslim countries are unfourtunatelly illiterate today.... but it was not always like that... no one can deny the sciences muslims contributed... for example the beginnings of the compass, essentials of modern medicins and pharmacy and much more are due to the muslims....

when we are backwarted now then also the west is to be blamed for it.... they caused so much suffering with their aggressive politics... milions of muslims died bec of the colonialism...

(from the book, why do you kill Zaid wriiteen by Jürgen Todenhöfer

the literacy rate of Algeria was before the French occupation after world war 40% higher than the rate of England and France, after the occupation it was only 20%......!!!

but I don´t want to be misunderstood! I don´t say that all pll in the west are bad.... and I believe first we are ourselves are responsible for the situation we are in...

you did not present me any evidence that I´m wrong... you asked for evidences I provided you a good link... don´t know if you check it out or not... of course I can not call my grandma who is allready dead and ask her to talk with you ... you will see by yourself what will happen after death...

There are two babies debating in the belly of a pregnant woman. One of them is blieving the other one is unbelieving.

the unbelieving baby is asking the other baby: do you believe in a life after birth?

believing baby answers: yes of course, I do believe. This is clear to everyone that there is a life after birth. We are only here to become stronger and to be prepared for that what is expecting us.

unbelievind baby: no that sounds stupid! Can you imagine how such a life after birth will look like?

believing baby: well I don´t know everything in detail about it but I know there is much more light then here and I can imagin that we will be able to move and eat by ourselves.

unbelieving baby getting a little bit angry: What nonsense! That is totally impossible! walk and eat by ourselves? how should that work? just ridiculous...

believing baby: I´m convinced it is possible. It will only be a little diffrent. it is easy to imagine...

the unbelieving baby saying unsure: but no one who is born will ever come back... I think life ends with birth and there is nothing after it...

believing baby: No! I don´t know how our life after birth will look like exactly but i´m sure that we will met our mother and she will care for us...

unbelieving baby: that´s crock... I have never seen a mother. That´s why she is also not existing!

believing baby: I can not agree with that what you are talking. Sometimes when everything is silent it can be heard how she sings and how she lovingly strokes our world. I firmly believe that our real life will start after birth.

and what about you?

BrotherZak · Jun 17, 2009

cemophora please desist from the intellectual persona you come upon this forum as many Atheist seem to do, because you're entire premise of subjecting a scientific study on the effectiveness of prayer is absurd.

Here is why? ISLAMICALLY We believe that Allah answers all prayers, some in this life, and if not immediately, you will see it in the day of judgment. How can a scientific study using the scientific method make an adequate examination into this?

Let me ask you some questions?

Are you here to seek answers sincerly elsewise, you would have known about this silly flaw. Really, i've dealt with all types of Athiest(from the Dawkinian type to the Christopher Hitchens) and the common denominator after you strip away the intellectualism and arrogranc, is really doubt. Doubt that pure materialism cannot satisfy you would not be here lingering around on a religious forum because deep down inside, whether you admit it or not, the observable world and the design and information screams out a causal reality which bothers you to a profound degree.

I suggest you clear your mind, look into the Quran, the miracles of it, its signs, its beautiful literature, and tell me if it could be from an illiterate Arab man living in Arabia 14 hundred years ago.

Its a converging data that we receive from the Quran that makes it illogical to consider the Quran as a man made because of:

1. Scientific compatibility and miracles
2. Quranic challenge in Arabic literature(objective)

If you are such an honest seeker as you claim, i suggest you watch this video which takes a look into the claim and makes an objective analysis of what i;m saying enjoy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9VKKOXjYB4

AbdAllah84 · Jun 17, 2009

To Cemaphora:

Your replies clearly shows how sincere you are and where you have been getting all your information from (indeed telling others they are acting unislamically proves that).

Preservation of the Quran: [What Non-Muslim Scholars say]

A number of non-Muslim scholars who have studied the issue of the compilation and preservation of the Quran also have stated its authenticity. John Burton, at the end of his substantial work on the Quran’s compilation, states that the Quran as we have it today is:

“the text which has come down to us in the form in which it was organized and approved by the Prophet. What we have today in our hands is the mushaf of Muhammad.

Kenneth Cragg describes the transmission of the Quran from the time of revelation to today as occurring in “an unbroken living sequence of devotion.” Schwally concurs that:

“As far as the various pieces of revelation are concerned, we may be confident that their text has been generally transmitted exactly as it was found in the Prophet’s legacy.”

William Muir states, “There is probably no other book in the world which has remained twelve centuries (now fourteen) with so pure a text

Basis of Muslim Belief:

Dilemma of Applying Reason

Almost all of us have been faced with the questioning of a child by repeating one word over and over. He can be very frustrating to us as he asks, "WHY?" If you put a knife beyond his reach, he wants to know "WHY?" When you explain it is sharp, he asks "WHY?" And so you explain, "in order to cut fruit," and he asks, "WHY?" And so it goes.

It illustrates the dilemma of applying reason. What we have to do when we apply reason is first set standards of proof. We decide for ourselves, "What will I be satisfied with if I find such and such and so and so that constitutes for me a final proof?" We have to decide on that first.

What happens though, is that on the really important issues, the philosophical matters, thinkers set standards of proof and they take a look at their subjects and eventually they may arrive at their standards. They may arrive at the point which say would constitute a proof. But then they ask for a proof of the proof.

Setting Standards

The key to avoiding this endless dissatisfaction is to satisfy ourselves about the standards first; to satisfy ourselves that such and such are a list of criteria that constitute proof, satisfying proof, and then we test the subjects that we examine.

Remaining article;

http://www.themodernreligion.com/essays_Gary_Miller.htm

http://www.islamicinvitationcentre....for_Muslim_Belief/Basis_for_Muslim_Belief.htm

If you are here just for an argument, than you are only wasting your time. What ever you have brought up and will bring forth have already been discussed here many a time before. Feel free to search the site.

safiya58 · Jun 19, 2009

cemophora said:
Islam!!yay:

Of course you can talk to Allah SWT about anything. And of course you will be wasting your time. Have you noticed how believers always preface everything with "Allah willing . . ."? That means that if you pray for something and it happens, Allah was willing, and if it doesn't happen, Allah wasn't willing.

So basically, you are wasting your time asking Allah anything. Try this experiment: Ask Allah a question, and then ask a cat the same question. Let me know if you get the same answer or different answers. If the answers are different, which answer do you think is better?

There have been a number of scientific studies showing that intercessory prayer doesn't work at all. A far as I know they were all 'Christian' type prayers, so maybe that isn't so surprising. Do think any Islamic organization would be interested in sponsoring such a study? And how would believers react if the study showed that prayers to Allah were as ineffective as prayers to Jesus?

:salam2: brother Islam!!yay

just to come back to the topic again... ofcourse Allah Subanallahu Teala answers all your prayers doesn´t matter what you ask HIM.... the sahaba r.a. asked Allah also for so small things... bec you will be rewarded for praying... when we pray we ackknowledge our weakness and that we depend on Allah... when you ask a person fr something again and again he will be stressed out... but Allah Subanallahu Teala likes it when we ask HIM... the more we pray the better is it... I have a book with several prayers on arabic and turkish translation and there are even duas you can make towards pimples! or when you put new cloth on...! Allah has power for everything and nothing is too much for HIM... It is good that you remember Allah also in small matters....

I quoted the post of cemophora bec he wrotte nonsense! there was allready a study concerning this matter:

the results, carried together by David B. Larson and his team from the National Center of the American health research revealed quite astonishing results. Comparisons were made between believing and unbelieving people. For example, the faithful people suffer in comparison to the little or not at all faithful people 60% less heart disease. The suicide rate among faithful people is even 100% lower, and they suffer even less hypertension. The ratio of non-smokers and smoking for believers and unbelievers is 1 to 748

The secular psychologists generally explain such cases of "psychological effect". This means that faith is the moral of the people and that the morale of health. This statement may be true, but if the issue is further investigated, appears another amazing result. Belief in Allah is greater than any other moral effect. The extensive research by Dr. Herbert Benson of the medical faculty of the Harvard University, which has the relationship between religious faith and physical health as its subject, have remarkable results. Although Benson is an infidel, he came to the conclusion that the belief in Allah and the prayers have a very positive influence on human health. Benson explained that he had come to the conclusion is that "no other faith than the belief in Allah, gives the brain ease and comfort." 49

But why is there between the faith and the human soul and the human body such a special relationship? benson concluded, that the human body and mind " adapted the belief in Allah" .50

This fact, which the world of medicine slowly understands, is a mystery in the Quran wich is notified with the verse "Those who believe, and whose hearts find satisfaction in the remembrance of Allah. for without doubt in the remembrance of Allah do hearts find satisfaction" (Surah 13:28 - ar-Ra'd). The reason why the people who believe in Allah, worship Him and trust Him are psychologically and physically healthier in comparison to other people is bec they behave according to their nature. The philosophies and ideological systems, which are in contradiction with the nature of people, bring humanity always worry, sadness, grief and depression.

Modern medicine is in view of these discoveries on the way to recognize this fact. In the words of Patrick Glynn, "modern medicine makes progress on the way to the fact that the healing arts, except the purely physical methods also has other possibilities." 51

48) Patrick Glynn, God: The Evidence, The Reconciliation of Faith and Reason in a Postsecular World, Prima Publishing, California, 1997, S. 80-81
49) Herbert Benson, Mark Stark, Timeless Healing, Simon & Schuster, New York, 1996, S. 203
50) Herbert Benson, Mark Stark, Timeless Healing, Simon & Schuster, New York, 1996, S. 193
51) Patrick Glynn, God: The Evidence, The Reconciliation of Faith and Reason in a Postsecular World, Prima Publishing, California, 1997, S. 94

Can I talk to Allah SWT about anything?

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safiya58

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safiya58

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