Conservation of energy and shirk

[Ibn Uthaymin]

Dr Abu Ameenah Bilaal Philips mentions in his book, Fundamentals of Tawheed , that believing energy is never created or destroyed is shirk in the sifat(attributes of Allah) since Allah has no beginning and no ending.

His evidence is Allah says:

كُلُّ مَنْ عَلَيْهَا فَانٍ


"Everyone upon the earth will perish"

In school I was taught the conservation of energy is one of the major cornerstones is Physics. The principle governs the working of the entire physical Universe. It was interesting to read what he said. Any A-level welterweights or University heavyweights want to comment?

 

[ShyHijabi]

Well given that Physics applies to humans I don't think there is anything wrong with stating a human can neither create nor destroy energy.

 

[hayat84]

:salam2:
some weeks ago I heard on tv that a physical laboratory in Geneve(Swiss)was ready to make start a big machine that could make run the atoms so fastly,that it could be possible to find the answer to the Universe's creation.This machine had a twice crash and scientists are still trying to let the world to know how the Universe had its origins.I fear that if the human's mind watch too far from its eyes,the End of the world will be nearer than it is espected.

 

[muslimda3ee]

:salam2:

when you study physics, they mention that they just describe how things are with their understanding and their proof of evidence.

The statement you mentioned is against our beleifs, but seriously when reading that stuff, we never take it to heart.

as for the proof in the Quran that this statement is not correct:

إِنَّمَا أَمْرُهُ إِذَا أَرَادَ شَيْئًا أَنْ يَقُولَ لَهُ كُنْ فَيَكُونُ [٣٦:٨٢]

[Saheeh_International] His command is only when He intends a thing that He says to it, "Be," and it is.

[Hilali-Khan] Verily, His Command, when He intends a thing, is only that He says to it, "Be!" and it is!
36:82

but like shyhijabi said: This physics statement is describing human capabilities. So in that respect, it IS true; I never went to far with physics even though I liked the study a lot.

 

[arzafar]

Big Bang Theory - The Premise
The Big Bang theory is an effort to explain what happened at the very beginning of our universe. Discoveries in astronomy and physics have shown beyond a reasonable doubt that our universe did in fact have a beginning. Prior to that moment there was nothing; during and after that moment there was something: our universe. The big bang theory is an effort to explain what happened during and after that moment.

According to the standard theory, our universe sprang into existence as "singularity" around 13.7 billion years ago. What is a "singularity" and where does it come from? Well, to be honest, we don't know for sure. Singularities are zones which defy our current understanding of physics. They are thought to exist at the core of "black holes." Black holes are areas of intense gravitational pressure. The pressure is thought to be so intense that finite matter is actually squished into infinite density (a mathematical concept which truly boggles the mind). These zones of infinite density are called "singularities." Our universe is thought to have begun as an infinitesimally small, infinitely hot, infinitely dense, something - a singularity. Where did it come from? We don't know. Why did it appear? We don't know.

After its initial appearance, it apparently inflated (the "Big Bang"), expanded and cooled, going from very, very small and very, very hot, to the size and temperature of our current universe. It continues to expand and cool to this day and we are inside of it: incredible creatures living on a unique planet, circling a beautiful star clustered together with several hundred billion other stars in a galaxy soaring through the cosmos, all of which is inside of an expanding universe that began as an infinitesimal singularity which appeared out of nowhere for reasons unknown. This is the Big Bang theory.
http://www.big-bang-theory.com/

At time t=0; there was 'nothing'. Then 'something' happened and the universe came into existence' at time t = 'some value i cant recall', the universal forces (electric, gravitational, magnetic and nuclear) were born. So technically energy was 'created' and science accepts that.

The law of conservation of energy is the most misunderstood law in physics. We cant measure the value of total energy (created after the big bang). What we can measure is change in energy taking place in a particular interaction. The law should be written as 'total energy in the universe is constant'. Hence, energy can only change form but the total energy (and hence mass; E=mc^2) remains constant.

btw the big bag model also predicts the end of the universe.

from wikipeida

Before observations of dark energy, cosmologists considered two scenarios for the future of the Universe. If the mass density of the Universe were greater than the critical density, then the Universe would reach a maximum size and then begin to collapse. It would become denser and hotter again, ending with a state that was similar to that in which it started—a Big Crunch.

Alternatively, if the density in the Universe were equal to or below the critical density, the expansion would slow down, but never stop. Star formation would cease as all the interstellar gas in each galaxy is consumed; stars would burn out leaving white dwarfs, neutron stars, and black holes. Very gradually, collisions between these would result in mass accumulating into larger and larger black holes. The average temperature of the Universe would asymptotically approach absolute zero—a Big Freeze.

Moreover, if the proton were unstable, then baryonic matter would disappear, leaving only radiation and black holes. Eventually, black holes would evaporate by emitting Hawking radiation. The entropy of the Universe would increase to the point where no organized form of energy could be extracted from it, a scenario known as heat death.

ever since the discovery of dark energy (comprising of most of the universe) a lot of speculative scenarios have been proposed. But like always scientific theory is not fact. as new observations are made, the theory will be changed to accommodate those observations. All science is a construct of the human mind.

 

[Aisya al-Humaira]

It is the First Law Of Thermodynamics that states "Energy cannot be created nor destroyed" and the Second Law continues that "A process occur in certain direction, not any direction."

It is said that energy isn't created nor destroyed but yet it can change forms into other types of energy. For example "Potential energy becomes kinetic energy and eventually remain as thermal energy".

Is there any detail explaination that Dr Bilal Philips mentioned on?

 

[ShyHijabi]

:salam2:
some weeks ago I heard on tv that a physical laboratory in Geneve(Swiss)was ready to make start a big machine that could make run the atoms so fastly,that it could be possible to find the answer to the Universe's creation.This machine had a twice crash and scientists are still trying to let the world to know how the Universe had its origins.I fear that if the human's mind watch too far from its eyes,the End of the world will be nearer than it is espected.

Actually they've repaired the machine and actually collided the particles. Nothing spectacular happened...no micro blackholes formed as people feared and the world went right on living. Whatever happens will be the will of Allah no matter what the humans intend.

And I still don't undestand how stating that a human can neither create nor destroy energy is against Islam.

 

[Al-Kashmiri]

As-salaamu `alaykum

Hold up. I read this book, I remember the point about energy, but don't remember it being said this way. Can you please provide the exact quote. From what I recall, this isn't quite what he said (Dr. Abu Ameenah). He stated that believing that energy is eternal (E = mc²) is shirk didn't he?

 

[Waseem203]

Allah can create and destroy energy but humans can't. Sister, would the energy in the universe eventually have to be depleted?

 

[ShyHijabi]

Allah can create and destroy energy but humans can't. Sister, would the energy in the universe eventually have to be depleted?

Energy is converted, it doesn't diminish. Argueably the form of energy as waste is called heat, but it's still there, just in the form of heat.

 

[True_Sultan]

:salam2:

when you study physics, they mention that they just describe how things are with their understanding and their proof of evidence.

The statement you mentioned is against our beleifs, but seriously when reading that stuff, we never take it to heart.

as for the proof in the Quran that this statement is not correct:

إِنَّمَا أَمْرُهُ إِذَا أَرَادَ شَيْئًا أَنْ يَقُولَ لَهُ كُنْ فَيَكُونُ [٣٦:٨٢]

[Saheeh_International] His command is only when He intends a thing that He says to it, "Be," and it is.

[Hilali-Khan] Verily, His Command, when He intends a thing, is only that He says to it, "Be!" and it is!
36:82

but like shyhijabi said: This physics statement is describing human capabilities. So in that respect, it IS true; I never went to far with physics even though I liked the study a lot.

What are you saying it is shirk? That law is the law of thermodynamics. Energy cannot be created nor destroyed. It pretty much means what it means. In this physical finite world of the universe. Energy was constant from the beginning. There saying that this universe has 11 dimensions and energy is one of them..but anyway energy is constant and it is being transferred. How is it shirk? Point to be noted..Allah is nothing like his creations. Allah exist all over he is infinite. He is beyond this realm of "Creation" so the universal laws don't effect him, he creates it. So there is no shirk. Also to the bro/sis who talks about the big bang..There was nothing, but then there was a single point of singularity. Quantum Fluctuation allowed it the initial power to expand thus creating a "bang". Now quantum fluctuation is an existence of a virtual matter/energy out of nothing. This is where Allah swt comes in, he works in mysterious ways. He simply created a single point and then created a threshold of virtual "thing" which thus by his command initiated it.

Note: That's my opinion but quantum fluctuation is part of the big bang theory.

 

[True_Sultan]

Big Bang Theory - The Premise
The Big Bang theory is an effort to explain what happened at the very beginning of our universe. Discoveries in astronomy and physics have shown beyond a reasonable doubt that our universe did in fact have a beginning. Prior to that moment there was nothing; during and after that moment there was something: our universe. The big bang theory is an effort to explain what happened during and after that moment.

According to the standard theory, our universe sprang into existence as "singularity" around 13.7 billion years ago. What is a "singularity" and where does it come from? Well, to be honest, we don't know for sure. Singularities are zones which defy our current understanding of physics. They are thought to exist at the core of "black holes." Black holes are areas of intense gravitational pressure. The pressure is thought to be so intense that finite matter is actually squished into infinite density (a mathematical concept which truly boggles the mind). These zones of infinite density are called "singularities." Our universe is thought to have begun as an infinitesimally small, infinitely hot, infinitely dense, something - a singularity. Where did it come from? We don't know. Why did it appear? We don't know.

After its initial appearance, it apparently inflated (the "Big Bang"), expanded and cooled, going from very, very small and very, very hot, to the size and temperature of our current universe. It continues to expand and cool to this day and we are inside of it: incredible creatures living on a unique planet, circling a beautiful star clustered together with several hundred billion other stars in a galaxy soaring through the cosmos, all of which is inside of an expanding universe that began as an infinitesimal singularity which appeared out of nowhere for reasons unknown. This is the Big Bang theory.
http://www.big-bang-theory.com/

At time t=0; there was 'nothing'. Then 'something' happened and the universe came into existence' at time t = 'some value i cant recall', the universal forces (electric, gravitational, magnetic and nuclear) were born. So technically energy was 'created' and science accepts that.

The law of conservation of energy is the most misunderstood law in physics. We cant measure the value of total energy (created after the big bang). What we can measure is change in energy taking place in a particular interaction. The law should be written as 'total energy in the universe is constant'. Hence, energy can only change form but the total energy (and hence mass; E=mc^2) remains constant.

btw the big bag model also predicts the end of the universe.

from wikipeida

Before observations of dark energy, cosmologists considered two scenarios for the future of the Universe. If the mass density of the Universe were greater than the critical density, then the Universe would reach a maximum size and then begin to collapse. It would become denser and hotter again, ending with a state that was similar to that in which it started—a Big Crunch.

Alternatively, if the density in the Universe were equal to or below the critical density, the expansion would slow down, but never stop. Star formation would cease as all the interstellar gas in each galaxy is consumed; stars would burn out leaving white dwarfs, neutron stars, and black holes. Very gradually, collisions between these would result in mass accumulating into larger and larger black holes. The average temperature of the Universe would asymptotically approach absolute zero—a Big Freeze.

Moreover, if the proton were unstable, then baryonic matter would disappear, leaving only radiation and black holes. Eventually, black holes would evaporate by emitting Hawking radiation. The entropy of the Universe would increase to the point where no organized form of energy could be extracted from it, a scenario known as heat death.

ever since the discovery of dark energy (comprising of most of the universe) a lot of speculative scenarios have been proposed. But like always scientific theory is not fact. as new observations are made, the theory will be changed to accommodate those observations. All science is a construct of the human mind.

Read my post..also yes wikipedia is not a good source. There are to possible most outcomes of the end of the universe, the big crunch or we just rip apart this universe (the heat death is another outcome is the big rip actually happens). Though the big crunch is what the day of judgement is gonna be like. For example this link:

http://www.islamicity.com/Science/dayjudge.shtml

So gravity will catch up, thus causing a time reversal, and when were going back to our original singularity and into nothing, the time and gravity will reverse. So as stated in the quran the events in the past will replay itself..this is how you see your own sins. once we are close to singularity the gravity will be immense that the sky and the ground will reverse (figure of speech). This effect will make it so that the mountains disappear and the core of the earth is what we will be standing on. The core is metallic, also the sun will heat it up as we are being compressed, the sun comes closer. Also this will yield and optical illusion which makes it so that there is one star in the sky. and that's basically day of judgment, after all the other signs have happened. Time reversal is also the reason why the sun sets in the opposite direction (most probably). Also what happens after the universe is back into singularity is ghayb and beyond..it was what Allah wills to happen.

Hope i helped...check the link

 

[hayat84]

yes,what I meant to say is just a feeling.there are too much natural events that are causing seriuos problems to the Earth's equilybrium(earthquackes,tornados,vulcano's eruptions,storms...).Nowdays there are many discoveries on different domains,but what I feel is:if one day there will be no more to discover,there will be the End of everything.It's difficult to explain for me,it may sound stupid,but if by chance the machine can start and "demonstrate the theory of the Big Bang",I fear that Allah will finish us all,cause the misbelievers had doubted about Allah and found what they shouldn't find.Allah will get very angry.mine,is only a feeling,but in general I don't now very much about energy conservation,cause in physic at school I wasn't very interested.wa salam 'alikum

 

[Ibn Uthaymin]

As-salaamu `alaykum

Hold up. I read this book, I remember the point about energy, but don't remember it being said this way. Can you please provide the exact quote. From what I recall, this isn't quite what he said (Dr. Abu Ameenah). He stated that believing that energy is eternal (E = mc²) is shirk didn't he?

Yes brother, this isn`t the exact quote. I read it, but it wasn`t mine. I`ll quote exactly if I can get it.

Even then, E=mc2 can be explained with conservation law.

In nuclear reactions, fusion and fission, by the law, the total initial mass of the matters has to be same as the final mass of the matters created after the reactions. However, if you look at any equations of nuclear reactions, you may discover that the final mass is less than the initial mass. So, somewhere there is the missing stuff? Einstein tells us that the missing stuff has converted to become energy by E=mc2.

The total final energy is now equal to the total initial energy. The conservation law still stands. Energy (according to physicist) canot be created nor can it be destroyed.

 

[Ibn Uthaymin]

What are you saying it is shirk? That law is the law of thermodynamics. Energy cannot be created nor destroyed. It pretty much means what it means. In this physical finite world of the universe. Energy was constant from the beginning. There saying that this universe has 11 dimensions and energy is one of them..but anyway energy is constant and it is being transferred. How is it shirk? Point to be noted..Allah is nothing like his creations. Allah exist all over he is infinite. He is beyond this realm of "Creation" so the universal laws don't effect him, he creates it. So there is no shirk. Also to the bro/sis who talks about the big bang..There was nothing, but then there was a single point of singularity. Quantum Fluctuation allowed it the initial power to expand thus creating a "bang". Now quantum fluctuation is an existence of a virtual matter/energy out of nothing. This is where Allah swt comes in, he works in mysterious ways. He simply created a single point and then created a threshold of virtual "thing" which thus by his command initiated it.

Note: That's my opinion but quantum fluctuation is part of the big bang theory.

Dude, I'm trying to figure that out too. How much does Islam reconcile with Science? The theory of relativity is not flawed like Darwin`s theory. It`s a very strong theory and is widely accepted.

Anyway my foreheads firm on the ground. I`ll just learn more before I get really confused.