Drawing a Hand?


Junior Member
well, the Ulma differ on digital and old hard copy pictures.
Old style pictures are totally haram where as Ulma have different opinions on digital images . A few say its allowed and a few say its not.

May ALLAH guide us to right path


Junior Member
Wa `Alaykum As-Salām, Fma6,

I totally agree
I think this modern world is just making the haraam easier n easier.
However it is a test as is all else in our world today.
We have to be strong, to fight off our temptations
I don't think we should seclude ourselves completely(although i have dreams of living in a dessert with a simple life) because we have a duty here amongst the people. We can help and teach people and make a difference.

Thanks fma6, I’m glad you see my point.

The internet being haraam? Although the negative and bad stuff is more abundant, it can be a powerful tool in terms of seeking and spreading knowledge.

This worries me, because that's what they want you to think. We all need to think about when we're going to pack the internet away - and let's not wait until it is raining atomic bombs and meteorites, because then it's too late.

There are no excuses for the internet really. There is a great amount of incomprehensible evil that is made possible through the internet, much of which would not be possible without it, however, the amount of good made available through the internet, would still be possible if the internet did not exist, it would just be harder to attain, we would have to strive for it - which means we would have earned it. Think about it.

To illustrate my example, think about paedophile networking, snuff movies, terrorism, and so and so on, these things could not be as sophisticated and organised as they are today without the internet. On to the good things, yes, the internet can be wonderfully educational, but knowledge that could once only be obtained in a university or via seeking out teachers and actually shifting our bums, can now just as well be learned sat in an armchair at home, and so it takes away our striving for achievement, it promotes absolute laziness in many respects. People are today so insular and bone idle it is unbelievable. It is wrong. It’s all haram. Let's just admit it.

Should we be 'correcting the common misconceptions regarding Islam', while sat on our backsides, or should we be taking to the streets?

Actions speak louder than words!

The evil of the internet outweights the good, and even as we seek the good in it, it is inevitable that we will, from time to time (if not deliberately), encounter the evil, and be bombarded with haram imagery while we go on.

I know that I am a hypocrite because I am on the internet right now, however, the importance of it is, that I am admitting that the internet and hypocrisy are haram, and so therefore I have some hope of renouncing these things eventually - however, if I am just to make excuse after excuse - I have no hope at all.

Regarding your quote "Anything that is man made and is not absolutely fundamental for survival, is surely haraam."

I would have to disagree with you on that...Haraam might not be the right word. for example...spoons r man made...they r not fundamental for survival..therefore haraam??:L...But i see what you're getting at.

Then I would have to disagree likewise. Spoons? What happened to the hands that we were created with? If we considered a spoon absolutely necessary then we ought to carve our own out of wood, or use sticks like the Chinese. A spoon is luxuriant. Money spent of such unnecessary luxuries as cutlery, should have been given to the poor so that they can eat, never mind our own cutlery to eat with! Consider also, that while we luxuriate in our ignorant bliss of the first-world lifestyle, think about where spoons come from. No doubt from some factory in a developing country where people are subjected to what is more or less slave labour, produced in factories which belch awful pollutions out into the atmosphere, and are made from resources which have ruthlessly and shamelessly been plundered from the earth, with no respect for Nature (Allah) at all, and all for the sake of adding to the grotesquely overweight coffers of cash owned by some greedy millionaire who runs the factory.

Now do you see what I’m getting at?

As-Salāmu `Alaykum, Shahzad.

Old style pictures are totally haram where as Ulma have different opinions on digital images

Then they’re excusing that which they know to be haram because they can’t be bothered having Allah inconvenience their luxuriant lifestyles in these Final Days.

All due respect to them, and I know that I am very new to this path, but anyone who thinks that there is a difference between the encapsulation of the human image on paper, and the encapsulation of the human image on screen, has a much subtler mind than I have. It sounds like splitting hairs and making excuses to me.

Perhaps on the Day, there will be but a handful of people who have walked this earth and lived their lives from start to finish having never done anything haram, or perhaps even not, because human creatures that we are, Allah knows how hard this is, never more so that in this era of global terror, decay and hypocrisy in which we now live, but doing haram things, aware that they are haram and then seeking forgiveness is understandable, indeed, we are even told that this is to happen. However, making excuses to justify haram actions so they can be done again and again and again is just pure audacity in the face of God - which is so much more haram than any encapsulation of any human form in any manner at any time.

My intuition tells me that Allah is more offended by those who completely deny haram actions to justify continuation of doing them, and so to deny Allah, than those who perform haram actions in guilt because they know they are wrong. For this is how we learn, it is even expected of us.

I know that I am absolutely imperfect, the life I have lived in the past is nothing short of vulgar, and I have surely done a number of haram things since I awoke today, I have thought deeply about sex, and I have felt hostility to my relatives when I have no right to show them nothing but love, and I’m on the internet right now, but if so then I did these things with the awareness that they were haram, and so the more this happens the more reinforced my mind becomes against such things, and the more likely I am to become more pure as I walk further along this path. That can’t happen if I deny haram action completely.

There's not really any excuses.

To those people who split hairs to excuse digital, photographic and televisual imagery, I would ask, if it was possible to travel back in time and meet the Seal of the Prophets, peace be upon him, how many of them would dare pull out a digital camera and take a photograph of him to show the people back home, what would they say?:

‘Oh, don’t worry dear prophet, peace be upon you Sir, it’s perfectly okay for me to do this, because it’s digital, the people back home say so.’.

Somehow I don’t think they’d dare. Would we pull out a video camera and show him our home videos when it is clear that he told us not to encapsulate the human image even in art, then would we mock him so completely as to then present him with moving and speaking images?

When I was ignorant about Islam, and I heard that Muslims are offended by the encapsulation of the human form, I found this quite bizarre and could not understand it. However, the more I thought about this, the more it made sense to me, and it certainly makes sense now. It caused me to think about how I have always hated having my photograph taken, because I don’t want to see myself and not be happy with myself, I don’t want my image to make me feel bad. On the other hand, there have been many times that I have observed a photograph of myself and thought I was really attractive - this isn’t a good idea either, because it is a claim of superiority. For to think yourself beautiful and to enjoy this, is to inevitably condemn some other people as ugly, otherwise there is no criteria against which we can measure ourselves. No wonder it is considered advisable for women and men to cover up.

Even if we never observe our own photographs, we still encounter encapsulations of the human form everywhere which makes us feel bad, the glossy magazines aimed toward each of the sexes (i.e., ‘Vogue‘, or ‘Men‘s Health‘), are very clearly representative of this. Idol worship par excellence! The idea of these air-brushed digital images which promote a most unrealistic standard of beauty, for both women and men, are there to make us feel hurt and inadequate, so that we will support the capitalist system by purchasing their cosmetics and surgeries - when that money ought to be given to the poor (if we can afford luxuries, we have too much money), and so that we will be psychologically abused into living the life of the kafir.

The cult of celebrity is most definitely idol worship, however, the cult of the celebrity could simply not exist if media imagery, or encapsulation of the human form did not exist. Oh, but then I suppose this is perfectly okay, so long as all these images are digital? People should only be held in high exaltation and celebrated within their communities for being particularly exemplary in living in the way of Allah, for being a wonderful orator and preaching, or for being very wise and teaching, or for simply being a shining example of Islam, in any manner. These are the only reasons for which a person should be held in high esteem.

If there was no such thing as encapsulation of the human form, there would be no ponography, no media propaganda, no corporate, political or nationalist psychological conditioning, no idle wasting of time that should be spent in prayer, or charity, or spreading the message of God while we sit on our backsides and watch soap operas, surf the internet and allow our minds to be befuddled by capitalism and Satanism as we are hypnotised by advertisements and entertainments which take us far, far away from the meaning of life - the list goes on and on and on. I could sit here all day long and relate as to why these things are haram, and still find inspiration for more examples.

At least I’m admitting it. That’s the first step.

As for mirrors, I would consider them to be haram also. How is this not encapsulation of the human form? Splitting hairs again. If men are not supposed to shave, then men should never find any need for a mirror. If women are meant to cover their hair, they shouldn’t ever find a need for a mirror either (and I recently found out that there is in fact such a thing as hijab for men, the only reason there is so much focus on women is because this custom has actually been mainly promoted by certain national cultures that are in fact misogynistic). Mirrors encapsulate the human form. Allah gave us water in which to observe our reflection, under certain conditions, provided it is light and the water is still, and even then, the image reflected will never be as perfect as in a mirror. Mirrors do one of two things - they either promote vanity, or low self-esteem, they have done both to me in the past, and I’m sure they have done the same to all of you.

Doing haram things while knowing that it is haram, and feeling guilty and apologising to Allah, and seeking better guidance, is a good thing, because it means that we are less likely to make the same mistakes again and it keeps us mindful of our path. However, to do haram things while making every excuse under the sun as to why it isn’t haram, so we can do it again and again and again, without guilt, without question, without any fear of recompense - that’s what Satan wants. Let us be aware.

I can see that as I walk this path I am perhaps going to end up becoming an extreme fundamentalist, living the life of an ascetic and preaching in the streets - I pray that Allah will help me find the strength, the endurance and the daring for this, because I know it is right. Please God, give me the strength and let me not always remain this vile coward that I am.

May ALLAH guide us to right path

Allah has already guided us to the right path - our job is to try to walk it - with no excuses.


"The cult of celebrity is most definitely idol worship, however, the cult of the celebrity could simply not exist if media imagery, or encapsulation of the human form did not exist."

That is very true...and by watching their shows, and movies, and checking out the latest entertainment buzz, purchasing their glossy magazines, talking about them with our friends, we are only promoting their existence and giving them a market they otherwise wouldn't have had.

"There are no excuses for the internet really. There is a great amount of incomprehensible evil that is made possible through the internet, much of which would not be possible without it, however, the amount of good made available through the internet, would still be possible if the internet did not exist, it would just be harder to attain, we would have to strive for it - which means we would have earned it. Think about it. "

This is absolutely true....I took the time to think about and yes people have indeed become lazy bums. Even simplistic things you will hear "one sec...i will google it" whatever happened to the age of hard library research?? I hate printers too. It's been a while since I've seen my own handwriting:(

Regarding the splitting hairs issue:

You know it's very true that we try to make and come up with excuses for everything. It is becoming ridiculous. When we are told something is Haraam, why do we have to dig in every hole and try to find something that will slightly or moderately contradict the Haraam ruling. As I said before the Haraam is very appealing and it is becoming easier by the minute to do a sin that to do a good deed.

I agree with your point about pictures either making you vain or lowering your self-esteem. I have yet to find anything else a picture does. Either we criticize it or make crude remarks or we praise it and gawk about it. It's either this or that. Yet, people still continue to take pictures and post them all over the internet,albums, lockers, everywhere. What surprises me the most is how many Muslims I know that have pictures framed and blown up from their original sizes hanging in their houses. It is like a museum of dead people in their homes. They are sooo stubborn! You present them with the facts and proofs that forbid pictures...ok let's forget about pictures for a minute....(you provide them with the Hadeeth that says the Angel doesn't enter a house with a picture or a dog)....it is like speaking to rocks:(

Mirrors.....an interesting insight:)

"I can see that as I walk this path I am perhaps going to end up becoming an extreme fundamentalist, living the life of an ascetic and preaching in the streets"

Trying to live a pure and simple life geared towards the cleansing of the heart, increasing of faith, and devotion towards Allah does not make you an extreme fundamentalist...That is of course what people will perceive you to be...but then again, NOTHING will satisfy people and keep their judging minds and eyes away from you....unless you are astray, then every one will pat you on the back and smile at you...However once they see you on the right path, they will attempt anything to lead you astray again or deviate from the straight path...That's what humans are. Manipulating and evil. Normal people are few in numbers.

One more thing...I would like to hear what you think about cellphones, and telephones in general:D


Junior Member
I would like to hear what you think about cellphones, and telephones in general

Well, I haven't owned a mobile phone for over two years now, because everytime I had one, I would always lose it, because I'm such a scatter-brain, then again, going out and being drunk out of my skull didn't help me not to lose my phone, but then I won't be doing that anymore so I imagine I'd have more luck at keeping hold of one now.

Camera phones are haraam because it's a camera.

With telephones, they appear wonderful because they allow us to keep in touch with people over long distances, but this gives us excuses to place that distance between ourselves and our loved ones in the first place. There are many friends that I have eventually lost contact with in the past, because these days, people do not fear putting great distance between each other, 'Let's stay in touch', they say, but the calls exchanged get less and less, and you eventually lose contact, you grow apart from each others lives, it comes to feel like you don't know each other any more as your lives proceed in different directions, and we can start to lose sight of the people that once meant something to us, and should still mean something to us. For example, the times I have lost my phones, I have lost contact with people because I had their numbers on these phones that I hadn't memorised or written down, and as I had lost my phone, they did not have my number, and thus, I have lost contact with many people in this way. It happens to people all the time.

So the telephone reinforces the idea that we needn't fear placing distance between ourselves, which is a perverse idea, because I'm a great believer in tribal society, the way we were always intended to live. If we lived in such a natural way, telephones would never be necessary in the first place.

If it wasn't for the telephone, people would be more likely to stay in close physical contact, friends, family, they would be so much more mindful to stay close.

In the UK, the main telecommunications company is called BT (British Telecom), and their television advertisements used to run with the slogan, ''BT: Bringing people together.''. On the contrary, 'driving people apart', more like, in providing people with the means to forsake close physical contact with the people they love in the first place.

Not only that but I hate to support multi-billionaire corporations, because they are nothing less than Satanic. I despise BT and see it as purely evil. The money that these horrendously greedy corporations have, such as telecom companies of all kinds, could fill the bellies of the worlds starving overnight, not to mention build them all houses, and wipe out the diseases that run rife over the developing world. So the fact that telecommunications companies are presided over by Satan, which is obvious given a little reflection, is a big clue that telephones aren't the most Godly of devices.

It's perhaps not the best idea to financially support such entities. Again, there are much more moral and spiritual causes such money could support.

Another thing about mobiles is the curse of fashion. It seems that you haven't had a phone for five minutes before a new, cooler, and smaller (making it easier to lose, which they well know, that's the idea: you'll need to replace it) version comes out. So hence, we get caught up in the nonsense of fashion, and waste a great deal of money, and they can be very expensive, when this money could have fed a hungry family. Thus telephones encourage greed, selfishness, idolatry (fashion), and ultimately, drive people apart beneath the guise that they do in fact bring people together, such is the trickery of Satan.

How do you view the telephone?


Junior Member
I hope I've not offended anyone in anyway with my thoughts here. I understand that many of you may live in other countries or long distances away from loved ones, and so yes, for such people telephones and such are essential.

All I'm saying is that if it wasn't for all the modern conveniences (which spiritually, are incoveniences), then we wouldn't be able to drift apart from each other in the first place.

To tell you what a hypocrite I am, I actually work on the telephone, as an operator, which is not only rather haraam as I see it, because I should not really be depending on such a device for work, and the nature of the operating I do is for a haraam purpose, and yet at this time I have little choice, because it's what I do right now.

I was just saying that if something is or seems haraam, then we should admit it and be aware of that, that's all, but never deny it and make excuses for, which means that we will never be inspired to look for alternatives.

I'm just extremely suspicious of where our lives circumnambulate all these man-made magical devices, all this hypnotising trickery, because if we try and be aware that this might not be the best state of affairs, then we're more likely to see where we can keep our focus upon that which is provided to us by Nature (Allah). :)


Junior Member
Statue and image

Besm Allah,
Assalamou Alikom Wrahmatou Allah,

It is very important to clarify some confusions.
The meaning of image (SOUAR صور in arabic) is STATUE which is made of stone or anything else and which is necessarily three dimensional. This kind of image is clearly prohibited in islam.

Now, concerning the other meaning of image (picture,etc) I really don't have a clear idea about it.

I'm wainting for your post to learn more :biggrin:.