Serious Hadith explains Quran :

Discussion in 'Islamic Discussion' started by Pure-heart, Feb 14, 2016.

  1. cabdixakim
    Offline

    cabdixakim Junior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2013
    Messages:
    147
    Likes Received:
    32
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Gender:
    Male
    Ratings Received:
    +80 / 2

    Wa'aleykumas'salaam warahmatul'Lahi wabarakatuh

    What we're discussing is not a father defiling his 8 years old daughter... we're discussing about a married man who with the consent of another woman besides his wife committs adultery; is such a man stoned or not? I said yes and you too said that,didn't you? I said it's so because the Hadd for such a man is only Rajm( because the prophet(p.b.u.h) enforced the command of Allah as such and interpreted further the verses of the Qur'an with clear words)... you said, he's stoned because you think the prophet(p.b.u.h) was enforcing (Q5:33) plus (Q24:2) and that such a man can even be crusified or just be banished from the land depending on the decision of the Judge... A claim which you can only say "please take my word for it" because there is not a gram's weight of evidence you've brought forth so far!

    And so an unmarried one who committs adultery 5 times as compared to a married one who did it once can too be stoned or crusified? Why not? Why does only the married fall under (Q5:33)? Does the Qur'an say so? No, in fact it gives them both same punishment according to your understanding of (Q24:2)... then where do you take this stoning from? From those ahadith? Do the ahadith offer or even indicate the options of (Q5:33)? Why was this fact of crusifying a married adulterer who did it in consent with a woman hidden from the prophet(p.b.u.h), the Khulfaa ur'rashiduun, the Tabi'iin, Tabi,u tabi'in? why is this only lately realised by You and Ghamidi_the Deen reviving people of logic?

    Why did the muslims( more intellectual and religious and more in line with the language of Qur'an than any of you) all agreed that Rajm is a fixed punishment? They all show hadiths and historical incidents; why would I then buy your 4 self-invented postules that is blinding you?

    And what is this Tabiyyin you talk about? Do you not mean Tabyiin= تبيين? Does it not mean elaboration,further explanation and making clear? Does the Prophet(p.b.u.h) not elaborate,further explain and make clear of what's in the Qur'an? Is hadith not defined as his words and actions?

    I'm telling you that there is no intrusion in the Qur'an from my point of view... and you glue me with guilt of doing so because of what? Because of my different understanding of the same Rajm incidents? Did I say that the Qur'an lacks something and we cannot take it as it is and so let's add this and that? NO. You seem to be lacking a simple teaching that unless you deliberate and believe the permissiblity of a forbidden thing you are simply a sinner and not a disbeliever( this happens had I was wrong and you were right which is far from the seen truth of the moment) ... Even so, what I believe of my opinion is always leaning on a hadith or Sunnah mutawattir or the understanding of early muslims but you on the other hand;


    Your argument is based on Aql, you hardly said in all your posts; "the prophet(p.b.u.h) said..." or "Allah(SWT) said..." in fact you only negated whatever I quoted of "The prophet(p.b.u.h) said..." All you have is dry solid (Q5:33) and (Q24:2) with only your overconfident never erring Deen-reviving logic and you want to crusify married adulterers and cut off their alternating arms and legs... No brother,you don't have to warn me I feel safe here! I see demanding evidence and logic here!
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2016
  2. saif
    Offline

    saif Junior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2006
    Messages:
    447
    Likes Received:
    18
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Gender:
    Male
    Ratings Received:
    +66 / 8
    What you are deliberately ignoring is, that I am making the variation of punishment within the range given by Allah dependent on 1. Nature of crime 2. Circumstances of the criminal. In order to elaborate my point, I have given you two examples. One, where the crime of a married man demands a harder treatment than Ma'iz and one, where the situation of a poor and dependent married woman, whose husband was in jail demanded a milder treatment than Ma'iz. Tell me, where have I said, take it because it is my word? I am presenting it to you as Allah's word. I am also pleading you, that Q5:32 is not giving you any other choice. If you want to deny Quran, that's your choice.

    What makes me sad is the way you have started to misrepresent me like mullahs. They always do that with their opponents.

    Give me exact quote or accept, that you are lying.

    Does that matter, if Ahadith explicitly mention Q5:33, when Q5:32 is not giving you any other choice?

    La'natullahi 'ala'al Kazibeen.

    There are many things, which the muslims have misunderstood. This is just a tip of the iceberg. Keep coming and I will tell you, what the muslims have done with the deen of Allah. It is not without reason, that they are in this mess today.

    Yes it has to be an explanation and not the change in the meaning. If a hadith is trying to change the meaning of Quran, we will simply reject it or we have misunderstood it. In all the ahadith you have presented, I have rejected none. I have only shown you, that we have misunderstood them.

    Ok, then you should keep your opinion. You should do about which you are convinced, that it is from Allah and His Prophet. That's what I am doing too. Even if you hang me for that, I will not accept the denial of quranic verses.

    My argument is based on the reading of Quran with 'Aql. People like you are prepared to accept anything over Quran. I cannot. Sorry, I cannot.

    Wassalamu alaikum.
  3. cabdixakim
    Offline

    cabdixakim Junior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2013
    Messages:
    147
    Likes Received:
    32
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Gender:
    Male
    Ratings Received:
    +80 / 2

    Wa'aleykumas'salaam warahmatul'Lahi wabarakatuh

    You chose to put words into my mouth, went as far as taking words out of a verse and adding other details in verses just for my special treatment... verses that I never quoted!
    you blame me of not accepting Qur'an as it is_ an issue which I was never discussing with you...( did I not repeatedly say "let's take one at a time with Rajm first" yet you rushed to conclude that I'm in clear denial of Qur'anic verses which I not quoted anywhere)... And now words are being put into your mouth? And makes you sad?

    I repeatedly asked you if a "married adulterer" can be crusified?... I even made it clear that was what I was asking... I did not ask " is a married RAPIST crusified?" And your answers were in the affirmative. Maybe you need to review what you've said and not mock me for a writing of a Qur'anic verse which I have never said! This is not a Mullah, it's a direction which you deliberately chose for the discussion!

    Is a married adulterer who did it once stoned? If yes, does that not go against your understanding of (Q24:2)?
    Can a married adulterer be crusified? Is it not an option in (Q5:33) if his crime indeed falls under it?
    Can an unmarried adulterer who did it 5 times more than a married adulterer be stoned?

    ... These and similar questions I have asked to reason with you until you dared to reach conclusions for me. That so when not giving consistent answers to my questions which was more than easy for me to point out... unlike you who made such a mockery based on how I'm maybe feeling how it's necessary to add things into the qur'an and what's hidden in me rather than what I actually said in words!

    *And yes! I don't know what Mullah is but if he is some one who reaches misrepresented conclusions for others then that could be you*
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2016
  4. saif
    Offline

    saif Junior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2006
    Messages:
    447
    Likes Received:
    18
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Gender:
    Male
    Ratings Received:
    +66 / 8
    Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh

    You never quote my words and I always quote yours. On quoting quranic verses, I have never said, these are your words. My words were, you couldn't be careless of these quranic verses. And if you remain on your stance, that exactly would be your "reading" of those verses. Somehow, you want to avoid any discussion on quranic verses and I am asking you to read quran first, take that understanding with you and then read all those ahadith. They will be crystal clear to you and you will not have to add your or understanding of any fuqaha in brackets to any verses of Quran and you will not have to declare any hadith as abrogated. Yet you think your logic is based on ahadith and I am presenting my 'Aql with no basis in Quran and Hadith.

    But since you have chosen the path of mockery of your muslim brother, I can happily declare you the winner of the debate. InshaAllah, the sincere readers will get the truth. It was not even the responsibility of the Prophet to convert everybody. It was his responsibility to present his da'wah before them.

    wa ma 'alaina illa'l balaagh al mubeen.

    I have also given you my reasons, why I am so interested in rapists. This is because I am interested to discuss all shades of fasad fil ard and I want to sensitise you, that there is some choice available above rajm and there is some choice available under rajm. A married rapist will be stoned because ahadith are very clear about them. A married one time adulterer can be stoned because this is also fasad fil ard and adultery, although I have always said, ahadith leave enough space to consider a milder punishment. One such example, where I would consider a milder punishment is that of Zafran Bibi. See the link, I have posted.

    See, my answers are still in affirmative. But I have never said a one time married adulterer (and not rapist of his own daughter) can also be cruicified. I have also never said a one time unmarried adulterer can also be stoned. These were the two things you falsely and deliberately put in my mouth. There is no comparison between my quoting of quranic verses and your false accusations. We don't have to decide that dispute here. The readers can do that.

    See my very first eplanation of that hadith. On declaring the punishment we will say, "You have committed adultery. You will be flogged 100 times for that according to Q24:2". Further we will say, "You have done adultery after being married, so you will be stoned according to Q5:33". On executing the punishment, we will only do stoning. This is exactly exactly, what the Prophet has also done. When he was declaring the punishment in that hadith, he has combined 100 lashes and stoning, so that it remains clear, it is a two-fold crime. On executing the punishment, he has only used stoning. Can it be simpler than that? I am sure, you will still accuse me of denying ahadith and what not. Therefore, as I have suggested, I declare you the winner of the debate. But I will not leave my understanding. Not because I am stubborn. This is because it has reached the status of "haq ul yaqeen".

    Yes, see above

    If we are not talking about rapists and incestists, then I would only work with increased banishment combined with 100 lashes. If we are talking about an unmarried man who rapes minor children, even that repeatedly, then I would plead and beg the judge to declare rajm for him. I am so sorry, but since my opinion is based on both Q24:2 and Q5:33, I cannot remain from mentioning rape as a factor which increases the punishment within the limits given by Allah.

    Easy? Yes winnning a debate is so easy for mullahs. Just ignore, what the opponent is saying, put your words in his mouth, keep on repeating you have brought no argument, until the opponent is tired. Yes you have EASILY won this debate. I hereby declare you the winner of this debate.

    About those verses of Quran, I still don't understand, what else your reading of those verses would be. I wonder, how that is possible to avoid Quran, when we are having a discussion on deen. You are presenting an understanding of deen. That has to come from Quran and Sunnah.

    I still don't know, where I have misrepresented you. But if unknowingly I have done so, I apologize for that right here.

    I hereby forgive you, if you have knowingly or unknowingly misrepresented me. However, I will remain worried about you for misrepresenting Allah.

    Again, I declare you the winner of this debate.

    Wassalamu alaikum
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2016
  5. cabdixakim
    Offline

    cabdixakim Junior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2013
    Messages:
    147
    Likes Received:
    32
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Gender:
    Male
    Ratings Received:
    +80 / 2

    Wa'aleykumas'salaam warahmatul'Lahi wabarakatuh, brother

    Thank you for declaring me the winner... actually all I wanted was to be a winner of a debate on Islamic issue at all costs (whether I'm wrong or right) in a corner of a relatively growing site against a stranger, and getting neither fame and popularity nor any reward!

    Firstly, I'm not able to quote words in the middle of a reply I already quoted for whatever reasons...

    secondly, I asked you again with clear words " can a married adulterer be crusified?" And you still said Yes, even though I've made it very clear that I don't mean rapists... where is the misquotation when I say you suggest the crusifying and cutting off opposite arms and legs of married adulterers? Because that's what I asked and you said yes to!

    And No, I do not misrepresent Allah... I'm discussing with some one who says " if we're not talking about incests or rapists,I would only work with increased banishment combined with 100 lashes" with no where but his logic to base it.


    * I have said what you said about crusifying a married adulterer_not rapists(which you hold on till now) and I misrepresented you, you quoted a verse of Qur'an with details to suggest it is what I said(which I never said in any place) and you did not misrepresent me?

    I was speaking about Rajm only_ And said my view is based on Sunnah Mutawattir,clear hadiths and understanding of early muslims which is why I said I see ,along time ago in the discussion, that there is no point in exhausting all the literature written of it and thus why I didn't quote from the Qur'an to prove my point... And I also said along time ago in the discussion that rape is a separate issue...

    But since you mentioned "winning a debate" I wonder a debate is all you have been doing and the objective being who comes out on top... your concession of defeat tells me you were competing for a win... That worries me of all that we've been doing.

    I don't need to win against you... it will not help me any time of my life...

    I did not misrepresent Allah, I am not the one who put extra details into a Qur'anic verse to prove a point... I only concluded what you said with no mention of Allah or His Laws...

    I have no rotten heart for you or for anyone else those who know me know it but let's just say this one we're not to converge at any point... so thank you for declaring me the winner(the one thing I wanted more than anything)and also a significant respect during the discussion... I had not seen disrespect or humiliation anywhere in the discussion. if anything, this is all part of established principles in a discussion where people contrast!

    And I seek forgiveness from Allah for my shortcomings and sincerely apologize to you had what you suggest really happened.
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2016
    • Like Like x 1
  6. saif
    Offline

    saif Junior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2006
    Messages:
    447
    Likes Received:
    18
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Gender:
    Male
    Ratings Received:
    +66 / 8
    Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh

    For everything else you have written, I see no need for a response because I want this discussion to end. There is just one little detail, which you might have missed, therefore concluded the following:

    Verse 5:33 does not mention the exact amount of banishment. The Prophet has chosen it to be one year in one particular application. Verse itself is not restricting it. I thought, that was also clear and if you would consider me your muslim brother, you would think, "ah, again he is interpreting this verse wrong". Instead, of protesting for a "wrong" interpretation of Q5:33, you chose to conclude, I had no base but my logic. Maybe it is the heat of the "debate", which is blending your eyes.

    And I am not here to win debates. The message of this thread was very close to my heart, because I see most of the problems the muslims are having today are based on the wrong understanding of Quran. And that wrong understanding is not deliberate but it is based on wrong Usool. InshaAllah, even though the site is loosing its popularity, it will benefit some sincere readers and that is all what I need. You get what you want. And InshAllah, I will keep on getting, for which I have put my work.

    Wassalmu alaikum
  7. Pure-heart
    Offline

    Pure-heart Junior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2016
    Messages:
    48
    Likes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Gender:
    Female
    Ratings Received:
    +10 / 0
    May Allah reward both of you for your efforts :

    “O' Allah show us the truth clearly and help us to follow it and love it.

    O' Allah show us the false clearly and help us to stay away from it and to hate it.”
  8. cabdixakim
    Offline

    cabdixakim Junior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2013
    Messages:
    147
    Likes Received:
    32
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Gender:
    Male
    Ratings Received:
    +80 / 2
    Aamiin... perhaps we may just have been missing your intervention and contribution to the discussion.
  9. saif
    Offline

    saif Junior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2006
    Messages:
    447
    Likes Received:
    18
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Gender:
    Male
    Ratings Received:
    +66 / 8
    Amiin. May Allah reward you for initiating this important discussion.
  10. Afzalsheikh
    Offline

    Afzalsheikh Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2020
    Messages:
    5
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    11
    Gender:
    Male
    Ratings Received:
    +0 / 0
    O ye who believe! Eat of the good things wherewith We have provided you, and render thanks to Allah if it is (indeed) He whom ye worship”
    Quran Verses

Share This Page