Serious How to glorify our Lord.

Discussion in 'Muslim <---> Christian Dialogue' started by a_stranger, Feb 24, 2016.

  1. Pure-heart
    Offline

    Pure-heart Junior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2016
    Messages:
    48
    Likes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Gender:
    Female
    Ratings Received:
    +10 / 0
    Ibn Al-Qayyim (d. 751H) - rahimahullah - said:

    "Worship revolves around fifteen principles. Whosoever completes them has completed the stages of 'ubudiyyah (servitude to Allah:God). The explanation of this is that 'ibadah is divided between the heart, the tongue, and the limbs. And that for each one of these three come five types of rulings, covering all actions: wajib (obligatory), mustahabb (recommended), haram (prohibited), makruh (disliked), and mubah (permissible)."
    [Madarijus-Salikin (1/109)]
  2. Pure-heart
    Offline

    Pure-heart Junior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2016
    Messages:
    48
    Likes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Gender:
    Female
    Ratings Received:
    +10 / 0
    "And 'ibadah is obedience to Allah by acting upon what He commands, and abandoning what He forbids; and this is the reality and essence of Islam. And the meaning of Islam is: istislam (submission and surrender) to Allah - the Most High - along with the utmost compliance, humility, and submissiveness to Him."
    He also said whilst explaining the above ayah:

    "Indeed Allah - the Most High - created the creation so that they could worship Him alone, without associating any partner with Him. Whoever obeys Him will be completely rewarded, whereas whoever disobeys Him would be punished with a severe punishment. And He has informed that He is neither dependant, nor does He have any need for them. Rather, it is they who are in dire need of Him, in every condition and circumstance, since He is the One who created, sustains, and provides for them."
    [Tafsir al-Qur'an al-'Adhim (7/402)]
    Ibn Kathir
  3. Cariad
    Brooding
    Offline

    Cariad Junior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2013
    Messages:
    632
    Likes Received:
    66
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Gender:
    Female
    Ratings Received:
    +190 / 23
    Only this bit does not make sense. And it does not fit with how God had previously revealed Himself to man in the Bible. Also it seems to contradict the fact that God /Allah is most merciful. Also I see no divine love there. But is this tafsir, like an explanation of what is meant by the verse in Quran?
  4. Cariad
    Brooding
    Offline

    Cariad Junior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2013
    Messages:
    632
    Likes Received:
    66
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Gender:
    Female
    Ratings Received:
    +190 / 23
    Why is it made so complicated? Why does God care for number of principles fifteen? Why not fourteen or sixteen? Why all these rulings and are they developed by scholars?
  5. Pure-heart
    Offline

    Pure-heart Junior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2016
    Messages:
    48
    Likes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Gender:
    Female
    Ratings Received:
    +10 / 0
    The Inner Forms of Worship

    As mentioned earlier, acts of worship prescribed by God either deal with the inner self or the outer body. Those which deal with the inner self do so with belief and feelings. Humans are commanded to believe in certain ultimate truths, discussed in the articles of faith, and this is the most important aspect of worship. Belief is the basis for what a person feels and does – actions and feelings are a reflection of belief. If a person’s belief in incorrect or weak, it will never produce the desired results in regards to their feelings or actions. For example, if a person incorrectly believes that God has forgiven them their sins due to their mere faith, their belief will not produce the desired feeling of fear which should be present in their heart, nor will this belief cause a person to cease sinning and perform deeds of righteousness.

    God has also commanded us to maintain certain feelings in our hearts, both towards God as well as others of His creation. Muslims must love God, fear him, have awe in Him, place their trust in Him, and revere Him, thank God, depend on him, remember him by tongue and heart, be sincere in turning to God.

    Some explain :to worship as to to love God the most love with deep humility. Those feelings are he fruit of pondering in all that is around , studying Quran , thinking of the bounties we are enjoying.
  6. cabdixakim
    Offline

    cabdixakim Junior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2013
    Messages:
    147
    Likes Received:
    32
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Gender:
    Male
    Ratings Received:
    +80 / 2

    Greetings @Cariad

    your question which you see unanswerable and detest muslims for not realising it is ;why does God Almighty protect Qur'an but not the previous scriptures? How could God Almighty fail to protect His books?...

    Because, the previous scriptures; the gospel given to Jesus, Torah for Mosses etc were meant for a particular people and their laws and rulings applied only to those particular for a particular time period until another people and the coming of a new prophet while the message of the Qur'an is universal and the Prophet brought it is the last and final prophet and for that, since there is not another coming of a prophet, it is message must be preserved for all ages.

    However, you do not agree with that. I have seen it be elaborated often... I don't know if it is arrogance(as in, my logic denies that) or lack of proof that the rulings of previous scriptures were actually not meant to be preserved... The proves that previous scriptures contained rulings that were not meant to be preserved and only for a particular people are numerous in the bible itself...

    for instance, in the bible, marrying your biological sister was allowed as the case of Abraham and Sara, the case of children of Adam( as they were only Adam and Eve on earth and so there were the only biological parents to whoever human was there on earth) and in the case of (Oxedus 20:12) in the bible and other similar verses... but this,however, is over-ruled(say abrogated) as we come to know in (Deuteranomy 27:22) that marriage between a brother and his biological sister is forbidden and calls for a curse... only this example can make you realise the changing of rules/laws if you're genuinely looking for proves.

    But,nevertheless, another example is that; the Sabbath day was a day set aside for God in the OT and therefore work was prohibited, so much so that one man was killed for collecting firewood in the sabbath day In (numbers 15:32-36) and clearly in (exodus 20:8-10) But in the NT, we see this Law is deliberately violated by Jesus or is simply abrogated in (mark 2:23:28)...

    Another example is that; divorce was allowed in the OT, the Mozaic law as (mathew 5:31) suggests but it is immediately abrogated by Jesus in (mathew 5:32) following it.

    As if that was not enough, another example is that; eating of camel meat was prohibited in the Mozaic law in (leviticus 11:1-4) but later is over ruled in (Romans 14: 1-6)...

    So with the above examples in the bible,you clearly see change of rules. It's for this reason and because the previous scriptures were neither universal not meant for all ages and because they do not complete the continuity of the message,worship and rulings/laws that they were not fit or needed to be preserved. But the simple message of One True Almighty God is preserved because that's universal and for all ages, it's even preserved in the bible by the words of Jesus himself in (mark 12: 29-34)... I hope I'm clear and with evidence and logic why the previous scriptures were not preserved and protected by God...

    I say that the current bible is distorted And you believe otherwise so the question is; do you believe that the bible is free of errors and contradictions?

    Besides, I have questions about the description about your belief which I gave and you confirmed... firstly, what is the purpose of creation as tought in the bible(using bible reference)? Why did God create man? So they fall into sin, he comes to take that away, and they dwell in an ever blissful eternal heaven as soon as they believe that he died for them,loves them and accept him as his saviour?

    secondly, where in the bible does Jesus/Yeshua himself claim that he is the word of God in essence and came to die for the sin of man in clear words? ( because the concept is the greatest in current christianity and most core such that it becomes unfair for only one educated group of theologians to pick it out from different ambigous verses and explain to the less educated masses)

    I hope there is no offensive tone in this post so if you answer these three questions and agree or show clearly why you disagree with the above explanation then we can move to more questions and further into the discussion about the description I gave.
    • Like Like x 1
  7. Cariad
    Brooding
    Offline

    Cariad Junior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2013
    Messages:
    632
    Likes Received:
    66
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Gender:
    Female
    Ratings Received:
    +190 / 23
    I do not detest muslims and you are rude and unfair to imply I do. Not understanding why you believe as you do or not seeing the same logic in Islam as muslims obviously see is not reason to detest any person... And I DO NOT.

    I am sorry, but you put my mind in a bad place and at present I cannot for it respond.

    Peace to you.
  8. cabdixakim
    Offline

    cabdixakim Junior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2013
    Messages:
    147
    Likes Received:
    32
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Gender:
    Male
    Ratings Received:
    +80 / 2
    So far you have responded to the word "detest" great work although I find it difficult how we'll discuss ,word by word, the 500+ words I wrote...

    "Detest" despite meaning ' to dislike intensively' it also means 'to condemn' or ' to denounce' or 'to witness against'... so which of those did I mean? You do not like the idea of muslims claiming " the bible is corrupt"... it's apparent in your previous posts and so by that you denounce , witness against and condemn that claim and the muslims who claim it for ignorance of the fact that "God must protect all his previous scriptures"... In other posts, you say you feel "disappointed ..." However, you're a person who claimed that "you find the Qur'an blasphemous" so ,bearing that in mind, how am I ,suddenly, offensive if I find you "detesting muslims" for a claim they make.

    Besides, I did not say this in order to offend you, it's clear in my last paragraph... and it's natural that we "make assumptions of each other" for instance, you now describe me as "rude" and "unfair" but based on my implication "that you detest muslims for that claim" which was also based on your previous posts and general reaction whenever you hear of such a claim from muslims!...

    what I learn from this your reply is that; you are not here for facts or mere discussion of answering points raised... your objective is more like personal emotions, credit and reputation... for intance, anyone who looks for the Truth would easily raise their eyebrows with the points I raised, respond to the best of his ability and at the end say " you're wrong and offensive I do not detest muslims"... But never ignore the whole discussion because of personal emotional issues!

    you're not a person to discuss with in matters of seeking Truth and facts ... Because " I will say this is offensive whenever the post is not in my favour and suddenly I'll act like I have been resurrected as a new unoffendable person whenever the post and explanation is in my favour" is not going to work in these kind of discussions!

    It's quite unfortunate that you hid behind a protective "you offended me" shield at the present, hope that changes in "not the present"... but my work here is done for I think I have written those points to satisfy a question you asked earlier and for many users who'll come after me to discuss them further!
    • Like Like x 1
  9. Cariad
    Brooding
    Offline

    Cariad Junior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2013
    Messages:
    632
    Likes Received:
    66
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Gender:
    Female
    Ratings Received:
    +190 / 23
    I have need to keep negativity out of my life. You appear to me as a negativity. Sorry for that but it's my feeling. I don't know what you want of me or why you respond to posts of mind.

    Other members have answered my questions and although it still not be clear to me (the islam) it doesn't mean it is wrong, but maybe not right for me. God will guide me, as God will judge me. Not you.

    Bye I wish you Gods blessing and peace of heart.
  10. cabdixakim
    Offline

    cabdixakim Junior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2013
    Messages:
    147
    Likes Received:
    32
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Gender:
    Male
    Ratings Received:
    +80 / 2
    :) Did I say I want to convert you? Or even Impress you? I respond to your posts because manier times I disagree with them and so I feel obliged to write why I disagree instead of just rudely rating it "disagree"... But please keep in mind that I have nothing against the person you, neither am I competing with you for the same limited space and dismissing your right to have an opinion nor wanting to claim superiority over you... I don't intend to be negativity or positivity in your life. I was just responding to your views as I always did ... but it's unfortunate again you take it that way!
  11. P-Thulhu
    Offline

    P-Thulhu Junior Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2015
    Messages:
    102
    Likes Received:
    9
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Gender:
    Male
    Ratings Received:
    +16 / 2
    *Bows*

    I am trying to follow this discussion but must admit to being at a loss as to its nature/context.

    Might people offer a.. 'Précis' or summary of where people think the discussion is at?

    Wishing all the very best.

Share This Page