I went to a church today not of mine

[SalmanFarsi]

Correction

Brother,

The kuffar tend to raise up these questions very commonly and they will NOT cease to ask them because the questions are not meant to seek answers but to question our great prophet's character. and sure enaugh, to a lame person like you and me, they sound pretty valid.
unfortunately, as soon as you hear these, shaitan takes over in your head and takes you straigh to hell. so be carefull, shaitan is always with you.

remember, our prophet married when he was 25 a woman that was 40.
he lived with her happy for 15 years and had children with her untill she passed away. He used to take about her so much later on that his new wife would get jelouse!

also did you know that Ayesha whom you ask about being very young when given to marriage to our prophet was actually engaged to someone else and that didn't go through because it was part of Allah's plan to have her married to him so that she maybe an excellent student of our deen to live longer and pass on the knowledge.

Whats intresting is that I know of people who wanted to become muslim but for this question; and alhamdulilah once they did become muslim, they gave me the best responses to this question



sallam,

Alfarsi

Corrections:

The kuffar tend to raise up these questions very commonly and they will NOT cease to ask them because the questions are not meant to seek answers but to question our great prophet's character.

he lived with her happily for 25 years and had children with her.

 

[IslamIsLight]

thank you all for the good replies, two was replied while I wrote a reply to, ones again, Im not asking about the age of a woman or girls, Im asking about the men,1400 years , today or tomorrow.
How does Islam see this? how does a woman see this? how would a grown
woman see this today if she even could imagine this would have happened to her when she was that young?
How would all brothers feel or you if you gave up your daughter at that age to a man?
My questions are simple, short and I do thank very much to long answers but yes or no, or a sentance or two would be able to reply to what I ask I think.

Hope you are, is or about to have a wonderful day. /Erik

Hi
"How would all brothers feel or you if you gave up your daughter at that age to a man?'"
Our beloved Prophet Muhammad (PBUH)wasn't just any man ,He(PBUH) was a messenger from Allah.
I think for human mind is not possible to understand and accept some things.Islam is religion from God .And We don't question God....We accept and obey Him....
Muhammad(PBUH) was a man of A perfect character.They way He(PBUH) was treating women was different. Nobody can ever do the same.He(PBUH) was talking to a woman kindly like to a child.He (PBUH) was the most Trustworthy and Thruthfull man ever existed.
And All what He(PBUH)did was with the Great Wisdom.
So Erik my advise to u is,instead of focusing on the negative things ,may be u should read about the Character of Our Beloved Prophet Muhammad(PBUH):the way He(PBUH) was treating people ,the way He(PBUH)was.Because its really amazing...
salam

 

[mymohsin]

Salam Brothers/Sisters,

By cing the replies the efforts my brothers and sisters did to explain friend Erik Masha Allah I m thankfull to Allah that I m also a part of this delightfull, friendly and helping community. May Allah strengthen ur Iman and help us to understand and follow the path of truth Islam. Ameen.

Erik I m thankfull to u also for asking questions and improving ur strength of Iman and friend pls feel free to ask question to enlighten urself if u have any doubt it always nice to clear it then keeping it as ur sister said above.

Jazak Allah Khair.

MVH.

 

[Basicofislam]

:salam2: Society’s norms of sexual relationships and family life are in a state of continual change. Living in the 21st century, we find that these changes that used to be slow and gradual in the past are gaining more and more speed. We have already been into Future Shock and the Third Wave of dramatic and catastrophic changes in the way of thinking, in our attitudes and approaches to life and the world. (Alvin Toffler’s Future Shock [1970] and The Third Wave [1989] are path-breaking books that describe the effect of fast changes that overtake modern societies.)

In most of the so-called civilized countries, family values seem to have lost all worth for most people. In the post–World War II generation of the United States, 80 percent of children grew up in a family with both the parents. Now that number has dipped to 60 percent or more. Before declining slightly in recent years, divorce rates had soared more than 30 percent since 1970. Today nearly half of American marriages are projected to end in divorce or permanent separation. Nearly half of people between ages 25 and 40 at some point have lived with a member of the opposite sex outside of marriage.

Please notice that we take the American statistics for the following reasons: (1) Reliable statistics are available there; (2) Most countries and peoples of the world imitate the Americans and are facing the same results; (3) Most of the critics of Islam come from America and so they are expected to have first-hand experience of the situations described.

Ninety percent of women born between 1933 and 1942 were virgins when they married; now over half of all teenage girls in the United States have sexual intercourse with some man before age 17. More dramatically, the percentage of teen girls who said that having a child out of wedlock is a “worthwhile lifestyle” rose from 33 to 53 in the past two decades. And what about same-sex marriage? It is being accepted even by the conservatives and the clergymen as perfectly normal. Such findings lead many people to conclude that “the institution of marriage is in serious trouble.” (Michael A. Fletcher, “Study: Marriage Rate Is at Its Lowest Ever—Findings Are Proof of Changing Attitudes, Report’s Authors Say,” Washington Post; published Friday, July 2, 1999, in The San Jose Mercury News.)

To speak of the age of consent for women in the United States: A 20-year-old woman who marries in Nebraska breaks the law because there the age of consent is 21, while a woman in Alabama can legally marry at that age, as the age of consent there is only 18. A hundred years ago, under the common law in the United States, the age of consent was just 10 years. Ancient Jewish law permitted girls to be wives at a much younger age. In ancient India girls as young as five and six were married to much older men. Even now the practice continues among some Hindus.

The foregoing shows that the minimum age for girls to be married varies from culture to culture and from age to age. Against this background, there seems to be no point in holding a particular age as the right age of consent in the post-modern world. But people who want to impose one on a different culture or religion would make it a big issue. It is surprising how even the intellectuals show a tendency to judge others by their own culture-specific standards as though these should be accepted universally binding on the whole of mankind!

This is not to argue that today girls should be married off at nine or ten years, for no one can ignore that the times, the social conditions, and the cultural milieu have undergone immense changes. But the very same fact should help us to realize that in another age and in another cultural setting, marrying a girl at the age of nine was quite the norm and there could be nothing surprising about that.

The events of the Prophet’s life (as also is the case of the lives of other prophets of the past) should be interpreted in the light of the socio-historical conditions of the times. What people often miss is the absurdity of trying to assess an event of sixth century Arabia, as though it happened the other day in downtown Manhattan or Birmingham.

It is worth stating here that it was Abu Bakr, the father of `A'ishah, who gave her in marriage to Muhammad (peace be upon him), and that she remained a faithful and loving wife until death parted her from her husband. And of the wives of the Prophet, none was so mature and knowledgeable as `A'ishah (may Allah be pleased with her).

As for your other point, it is a well-acknowledged principle that a hadith should be interpreted against the background of the actual context that led the Prophet to say or do what he did. Furthermore, when applying the hadith to the present situation, we need to consider the changed circumstances. It is meaningless to expect the Prophet to have explained all in advance; rather, it is the duty of modern scholars to do this interpretation in the right way, so as to make the example of the Prophet relevant to the present times.

It is only natural that some of the things that the Prophet did or said may not correspond to a particular time or situation; but that does not make such examples insignificant or irrelevant. In the future, situations and conditions may arise that call for decisions or rulings based on those examples.

And Allah knows best.

 

[Basicofislam]

The issue of `A'ishah bint Abi Bakr has arisen purely around the fact that she married Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) when she was young and as you said, “Do we know what her true age was?” The problem is that we are dependent on reports of information. Even with accurate reporting, it is difficult to sustain that level of accuracy 100% of the time, all the time.

The true records that are referred to by Muslims for guidance are the Qur’an and the Hadiths (traditions) of Prophet Muhammad, the essence of both of which is the religion of Islam. They are not sociology textbooks although Islam covers all aspects of life. One of the foremost records depended upon is the collection of hadiths of Prophet Muhammad in the Sahih of Al-Bukhari. From the translation of Dr. Amin Al-Masri of Cambridge University, England and Head of Shari`ah at the College of Shari`ah and Islamic Studies in Makkah, we are informed:



`A'ishah reported that the Prophet wrote the marriage contract with her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: “I have been informed that `A'ishah remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e., till his death).” (Al-Bukhari 7: 65)

The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with `A'ishah while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death). (Al-Bukhari 7: 88)
Islamic scholar Maulana Muhammad Ali was one of the first to challenge `A’ishah’s age. In his books Muhammad, the Prophet and Living Thoughts of the Prophet Muhammad, he states:

A great misconception prevails as to the age at which `A'ishah was taken in marriage by the Prophet. Ibn Sa`d has stated in the Tabaqat that when Abu Bakr (father of `A’ishah) was approached on behalf of the Prophet, he replied that the girl had already been betrothed to Jubair and that he would have to settle the matter first with him. This shows that `A'ishah must have been approaching maturity at the time.

Again, the Isaba, speaking of the Prophet’s daughter Fatimah, says that she was born five years before the Call and was about five years older than `A’ishah. This shows that `A'ishah must have been about ten years at the time of her betrothal to the Prophet, and not six years as she is generally supposed to be.

This is further borne out by the fact that `A'ishah herself is reported to have stated that when the fifty-fourth chapter [i.e., surah] of the Qur’an entitled “The Moon” [Al-Qamar] was revealed, she was a girl playing about and remembered certain verses then revealed. Now the fifty-fourth chapter was undoubtedly revealed before the sixth year of the Call. All these considerations point to but one conclusion, viz., that `A'ishah could not have been less than ten years of age at the time of her nikah, which was virtually only a betrothal.

And there is one report in the Tabaqat that `A'ishah was nine years of age at the time of nikah. Again it is a fact admitted on all hands that the nikah of `A'ishah took place in the tenth year of the Call in the month of Shawwal. This is while there is also preponderance of evidence as to the consummation of her marriage taking place in the second year of Hijrah in the same month, which shows that full five years had elapsed between the nikah and the consummation. Hence, there is not the least doubt that `A’isha was at least nine or ten years of age at the time of betrothal, and fourteen or fifteen years at the time of marriage.
If we dig deeper, we find that the great Islamic historian Ibn Jarir At-Tabari in his History iterated:

In the time before Islam, Abu Bakr married two women. The first was Fatila daughter of `Abdul `Uzza, from whom `Abdullah and `Asmaa’ were born. Then he married Umm Ruman, from whom `Abdur-Rahman and `A'ishah were born. These four were born before Islam.

Looking at `A'ishah's impressions of her early life, we can indeed see that she was born before the Call:

Since I reached the age when I could remember things, I have seen my parents worshiping according to the right faith of Islam. Not a single day passed but Allah’s Messenger visited us both in the morning and in the evening. When the Muslims were persecuted, Abu Bakr set out for Ethiopia as an emigrant. When he reached a place called Bark Al-Ghimad, he met Ibn Ad-Daghna, the chief of the Qara tribe, who asked Abu Bakr, “Where are you going?” Abu Bakr said, “My people have turned me out of the country and I would like to tour the world and worship my Lord.” Ibn Ad-Daghna said, “A man like you will not go out, nor will he be turned out, as you help the poor earn their living, keep good relations with your kith and kin, help the disabled (or the dependents), provide guests with food and shelter, and help people during their troubles. I am your protector. So, go back and worship your Lord at your home.”

Ibn Ad-Daghna went along with Abu Bakr and took him to the chiefs of Quraysh saying to them, “A man like Abu Bakr will not go out, nor will he be turned out. Do you turn out a man who helps the poor earn their living, keeps good relations with kith and kin, helps the disabled, provides guests with food and shelter and helps the people during their troubles?” (Al-Bukhari 3: 37 #494)
570 CE: Prophet Muhammad born
595 CE: Married Khadijah, his first wife
610 CE: Received the revelation that led to his Call to Islam
613 CE: Started preaching publicly
615 CE: His daughter Fatimah born
622 CE: Left Makkah for Madinah
623 CE: `A'ishah entered the household of Prophet Muhammad
625 CE: Battle of Uhud

The famous classical commentator on the Qur’an, Ibn Kathir, wrote in Al-Bidayya wan-Nihaya: “Asmaa’ died in 73 AH at the age of one hundred years. She was ten years older than her sister `A'ishah.”

It might be worth noting that pubescence is characterized by the proliferation of sex cells which begins with the menarche, or first menstruation, in girls. Research has noted that the average age at which the menarche begins has been decreasing among Western European girls and apparently among girls of the United States and Canada, as well, since as far back as 1976. What this means is that we should try to avoid generalizations about when menstruation begins; this differs from culture to culture as well as epoch to epoch. If you want to take this further: puberty comes from the Latin word pubertas, which means “adult”. The Qur’an states what means:
*{And when the children among you have attained to puberty, let them seek permission as those before them sought permission; thus does Allah make clear to you His communications, and Allah is Knowing, Wise}* (An-Nur 24: 59)

It all depends on what one wishes to recognize, the laws of nature or the social laws constructed by man. `A'ishah married willingly under circumstances that supported that marriage, whichever argument one chooses to follow.

 

[umm hussain]

hie Erik

Are you Muslim yet or just reading about Islam. It is almost like these priests have memorized something that is socially unacceptable to people to try and put doubt in peoples minds and undermine Islam but alhamdulillah the light of Allah will shine through and these people do not have knowledge but just hate and deliberate misunderstanding of the deen. Alhamdulillah the brothers and sisters have given you great responses already and I would just like to add a few more. I hear you when you want a simple answer maybe 2 sentences or so but this topic is not that straight forward and I believe you cant do justice to it with a short reply.

You ask us to imagine if we could give our daughters to any man my answer is of course not. The prophet wasnt just any man he was a Prophet of Allah and he was told to marry her.

Children might not be getting married at pubert which can come as early as 8-9 in some children but they are still having sex at that age. I read recently some 'girl' who gave birth at 11 so if we want to do justice we have to calculate when she actually started having sex and these cases are there. Womanhood is defined by puberty and as much as we would want to see our children as children they have grown up. A man of 50 years in that time could marry a young woman despite her age, lets no put age into consideration because what can be deemed molestation in one country is not necessarily molestation in another. I will giv an example in some countries consensual sex can be at the age of 12 but of course that will be considered paedophilia in the UK for example.

To answer these critics you have to be equipped with knowledge e.g

Some of these articles are pretty long so will just post what is relevant to this topic and you can do your own research if and when necessary

Agnes-Anna of France,wife of Alexius II and Andronicus I of the Comneni Dynasty

Lynda Garland
University of New England, Australia

Andrew Stone
University of Western Australia

According to William of Tyre, Agnes was only eight on her arrival at Constantinople, while Alexius was thirteen; in fact Alexius was born on 14 September 1169.[[3]] Child brides, whether Byzantines or foreign princesses, were the norm rather than the exception, especially from the late twelfth century. Irene Ducaena, wife of Alexius I Comnenus, was twelve at her marriage, and empress before she was fifteen; the Byzantine princess Theodora, Manuel's niece, was in her thirteenth year when she married Baldwin III of Jerusalem; and Margaret-Maria of Hungary married Isaac II Angelus at the age of nine. Agnes's age, then, was not unusual, especially as it was customary for young engaged couples in Constantinople to be brought up together in the house of the socially superior partner.[[4]]

Look at their own scriptures
As Muslims, we do not embrace the pedophilia, rape, terrorism and all of the other forms of evil that exist in the Bible, nor do we believe that the Prophets of Allah Almighty, peace and blessings be upon all of them, ever committed such cruel acts that are falsely attributed to them.

We're only exposing the corrupted bible and the evil that exists in it.

Sometimes one has to read a passage twice to believe what has been written in the Sacred Books of Judaism: what has been decreed the way to a holy life by the "sages of blessed memory... whose words are the natural sounds of Judaism" [131]:



Said Rabbi Joseph, "Come and take note: A girl three years and one day old is betrothed by intercourse. And if a Levir has had intercourse with her, he has acquired her. And one can be liable on her account because of the law prohibiting intercourse with a married woman. And she imparts uncleanness to him who has intercourse with her when she is menstruating, to convey uncleanness to the lower as to the upper layer [of what lies beneath]. If she was married to a priest, she may eat food in the status of priestly rations. If one of those who are unfit for marriage with her had intercourse with her, he has rendered her unfit to marry into the priesthood. If any of those who are forbidden in the Torah to have intercourse with her had intercourse with her, he is put to death on her account, but she is free of responsibility [M.Nid. 5:4].
Sanhedrin 7/55B [132]

More modern times

even among the Christian societies, little girls are given away for marriage at a very young age. So condemning Prophet Muhammad's Marriage from Aisha, which happened 1400+ years ago is ridiculous, because not only today little girls get married, but it is strongly believed among Jews and Roman Catholics that Mary was between 12 to 14 when she got pregnant with Jesus.

This is an extract from a cnn website link not available any more but good thing this article was copied and pasted on to a website complete with photos of bride and groom walking down the aisle in church

Activists condemn Gypsy girl's arranged wedding in Romania

Tuesday, September 30, 2003 Posted: 3:58 PM EDT (1958 GMT)

Birita Mihai, 15, and Ana Maria Cioaba, 12, walk into a church during their controversial wedding.
BUCHAREST, Romania (AP) -- Human rights activists and Romanians on Tuesday condemned the arranged marriage of a 12-year-old Gypsy girl, saying it was illegal and a violation of human rights.

Ana Maria Cioaba, 12, was married off Saturday to Birita Mihai, 15.
and

The news item is from the New Straits Times, 10/3/2001.

A 9 year old girl gave birth in Thailand and a picture of her holding her baby.

In our world today, we still have people especially in the third world countries, marry very young girls. At least their getting married and have husbands who take on the responsibility of taking care of them and their children unlike their counterparts in 'developed' countries who are impregnated and sometimes dont even know the fathers of their children and left alone and become single mothers who fend for themselves and their children.

Firstly - if indeed the marriage of Lady Aisha was something which was despicable even at that time and in that culture, this fact would never have been recorded for posterity and all efforts to conceal or cloud it would have been undertaken.

But the fact that this hadith had reached us after it was recorded centuries ago and to all the Muslim generations in between proved that the marriage was culturally and morally acceptable and the fact is also that the Muslim community at that time remained unshakened in its faith in his Prophethood and the message which he had brought bear testimony to this assertion.

Secondly - we have to look at the life of Lady Aisha afterwards. She was without doubt one of the foremost scholars of Islam. It is even said that she had attained in her lifetime the position of Mufti - someone capable of giving religious rulings - a position very few Muslims will ever occupy.

She was seeked by many, both men and women, who hungered for knowledge and they came to her from all directions, Yemen, Bahrain, Syria. History does not know of any woman who was approached by so many for such a noble purpose.

If indeed she had became a victim of sexual abuse she would in most probability be devastated emotionally, psychologically, mentally and perhaps even physically but the achievements she had made in her life after the death of the Prophet proved that she was a woman who was in complete control of her faculties, becoming one of the intellectual giants of Islam.

And the fact that she had spoken so dearly of the Prophet was indicative of the innocence of the marriage and of the impeccable character of her husband because given the trust enjoyed by her by the virtue of her relationship with him, she could have unleashed a vengeful attack against him by attributing to him words or deeds of horrendous nature if indeed she was a victim of his supposed lust, destroying both the Prophet and Islam.

No sexual abuse victim would ever spoke positively of her attacker, much less becoming a channel that promote love and understanding of him and the message which he had brought."

Was Muhammad a pedophile?

Okay, lets have a look at the psyche of a typical pedophile, and see how much of it fits Muhammad shall we? Quoted text is taken from Understanding the Pedophile Psyche, courtesy of the Police Federation of England & Wales:

"Low self esteem. Many pedophiles, although by no means all, do not have a great sense of capacity for adopting a sexual demeanor towards adults or those of their own age or older. They feel unhappy and fearful at the prospect of sexual behaviour with adults and hence turn to children due to the fact that they are unable to have the strength of personality to seek adults for sexual demeanor. When considering treatment therefore it is important to establish and develop a higher sense of self-esteem in such individuals."

As well as being married to Aisha, he was also married to many other women during his life. He wasn't certainly suffering from low self-esteem. Therefore, this does not apply to Muhammad.

"Lack of impulse control. Many pedophiles find it extremely difficult to deal with the impulsive nature which inclines them towards sexual behaviour to children. They simply cannot control their need for engaging children in sexual practices. They might be said to suffer from an obsessive-compulsive condition. Here again treatment would involve developing better impulse control and of course redirecting the sexual inclinations."

As has been mentioned before, Muhammad waited for at least two years before consummating the marriage. Therefore, this point of 'lack of self control' does not apply to Muhammad. Also, fasting during Ramadan requires abstention from sexual relations. Why would Muhammad practise this if he had no self-control?

"Denial. Many pedophiles deny there is anything wrong with having sexual relations with children and many will in due course paradoxically deny having carried out such practices should they be confronted. It is vital to change the attitudes of such individuals much as in the lack of empathy with their victim."

Muhammad never once denied having sex with his wife. Also note the use of the term 'victim'. Aisha could not be described as a victim. Therefore, this does not apply to Muhammad.

"History of previous pedophile activity. Many pedophiles have carried out minor or major acts of pedophile behaviour in the past and this has led to habit as well as the obsessive-compulsive nature of the act towards children. It is vital here to promote alternative habits i.e. in attitudes and demeanor of sexual behaviour with adults."

Muhammad has no history of pedophile activity whatsoever. Also, as I pointed out, all of Muhammad's other wives were adult, and there is no evidence of him being obsessed with children. Therefore, this doesn't apply to Muhammad.

"Poor family relationships - many pedophiles have come from families that are in chaos or are lacking in stability. This has led them to view sexual behaviour with children rather than adults as acceptable especially if this has been practised upon them by a member of the family in the past. Although it is difficult to reverse what has happened in the past through discussion or attitude changes it is vital that insight must be gained by the individual into how his/her pedophile activity originated and was developed through the family dynamics."

Although he was orphaned at a young age, Muhammad was always very close to all his family members, and advocated that whosoever cuts the bond of kith and kin, he/she would be denied paradise. Therefore, this does not apply to Muhammad.

"Low IQ - there are pedophiles who have low intelligence but by no means all are in this category. Where this is the case appropriate therapeutic efforts must be made to develop understanding of what they are doing wrong and what they must do to change."

Despite being illiterate, Muhammad had a reputation for being a very bright young boy, an excellent trader, and an extremely wise man. Therefore, this point does not apply to Muhammad.

"Loneliness, depression and relationship needs - this particular trait is associated with low self-esteem and lack of empathy with the victim. Many pedophiles are lonely individuals who live on their own and have found it difficult to establish relationships with adults, especially for sexual purposes. Some suffer from psychological problems and even psychotic illnesses. Here intensive treatment and monitoring is in order."

Muhammad wasn't suffering from depression when he married Aisha. Also, low self-esteem, loneliness, and difficulty to establish relations could not be attributed to Muhammad.

"Having been themselves sexually abused - many pedophiles have themselves been sexually abused in the past by adults. They merely imitate what they experienced and continue their activity considering it as appropriate since it was done to them."

This certainly isn't true.

Despite the fact Muhammad married a nine-year old girl, he could NOT be considered a paedophile.

Hope this helps. There are many more examples to today's child marriages or relationships but I think this is more than enough and for some one who is searching for the truth it should not be much of an issue. There is more to Islam than the marriage of Prophet Muhammad, salalahu alayhi wasallam to Aayishah. You should start reading about the fundamental beliefs of Islam and worship the creator and everything will fall into place inshallah as Imaan increses.

by the way I am a woman too.

 

[junaid hasan]

the bishop said, Erik, I am gladyou read our scriptures and also the Holy Quran, it is good to k´now because it will help for the future with your muslim firends for you to understand more.

He then said that I now feel I have to ask you, I first didnt belive it but I googled some and find this everywhere.
question one, the prophet, may peice be upon him get married to a girl named Aisha that was 9 years old? *Link Removed*

As a priester he should go to a mosque and learn about this history but he didn´t do it.He just googled about this topics like other people are doing.
As a normal people i never just searched googled and stay also with that opinion, may be i checked something then i ask also religious people about that case.And about this time i dont think that it was a great idea to told you or asking you about this case.because from you its impossible to get the answer of this question.(you are not yet scholar of islam)

Question 2 that bishop told me, Mohammed was a great writer, he wrote many books. did he? what other books did he write? He spend 21 years to write the Holy Quran? is this true?

its like a bilnd believer act.May be he heard about this something from anywhere and he also quoted it to you.But i hope you got the answer that prophet mohammad was an illetarate person.The students who used to go in islamic kinder school there they learn it.

One time prophet mohammad had to give his finger tips which was may be written by ali(r.d).then he said to ali(r.d) that ali(r.d) show me where i have to give my finger tips.

 

[SisterMunira]

thank you all for the good replies, two was replied while I wrote a reply to, ones again, Im not asking about the age of a woman or girls, Im asking about the men,1400 years , today or tomorrow.
How does Islam see this? how does a woman see this? how would a grown
woman see this today if she even could imagine this would have happened to her when she was that young?
How would all brothers feel or you if you gave up your daughter at that age to a man?
My questions are simple, short and I do thank very much to long answers but yes or no, or a sentance or two would be able to reply to what I ask I think.

Hope you are, is or about to have a wonderful day. /Erik

Hello Erik.

Aisha (may peace be upon her), never uttered one word against the prophet (may peace be upon him). In her life story/ biography she loved Islam very much. Her father was a great muslim.

Also when she moved to his house, she was treated as a kid. Sayings of the prophet clearly show, he did not have sex with her at a young age BUT when she was older.

I hope that was short enough Erik, Have a fantastic day!

 

[newusman]

Greetings,
I would like to thank you for making the effort of searching about Islam & showing interest in it.By the Will of God(Allah The All Mighty) everyone over here at Turn To Islam (TTI) will insh'Allah(By the Will of Allah) facilitate the means through which you can gain proper authentic knowledge and understand Islam.
May Allah guide you.

I must say that in order to inquire about a particular field one must go to the person who has knowledge regarding that field.
Example: You don't ask an accountant for a medical check up, you should ask a doctor, and even if the accountant tells you something how credible will it be??? Similarly if one wants to gain knowledge regarding Hinduism he should ask a person who is a preacher of that religion, and if you want to know about Islam you must ask someone who has knowledge about Islam.

Now going on to answer the question posted

He then said that I now feel I have to ask you, I first didnt belive it but I googled some and find this everywhere.
question one, the prophet, may peice be upon him get married to a girl named Aisha that was 9 years old? *Link Removed*

I would recommend you to view the following video by Dr. Bilal Philips
[yt]fGmAGT-cyuI[/yt]

Now going on to your second question, the following has been obtained from website of Dr.Zakir Naik & it answers your question thoroughly.

Question 2 that bishop told me, Mohammed was a great writer, he wrote many books. did he? what other books did he write? He spend 21 years to write the Holy Quran? is this true?

Question

Is it not true that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) has copied the Qur’an from the Bible?

Answer

Many critics allege that Prophet Muhummad (pbuh) himself was not the author of the Qur’an but he learnt it and/or plagiarised (copied or adapted) it from other human sources or from previous scriptures or revelations.

1. MUHUMMAD LEARNT THE QUR’AN FROM A ROMAN BLACKSMITH WHO WAS A CHRISTIAN

Some Pagans accused the Prophet of learning the Qur’an from a Roman Blacksmith, who was a Christian staying at the outskirts of Makkah. The Prophet very often used to go and watch him do his work. A revelation of the Qur’an was sufficient to dismiss this charge - the Qur’an says in Surah An-Nahl chapter 16 verse 103:

"We know indeed that they say, ‘It is a man that teaches him,’ The tongue of him they wickedly point to is notably foreign, while this is Arabic, pure and clear."
[Al-Qur’an 16:103]

How could a person whose mother tongue was foreign and could hardly speak little but of poor broken Arabic be the source of the Qur’an which is pure, eloquent, fine Arabic? To believe that the blacksmith taught the Prophet the Qur’an is some what similar to believing that a Chinese immigrant to England, who did not know proper English, taught Shakespeare.

2. MUHUMMAD (PBUH) LEARNT FROM WARAQA - THE RELATIVE OF KHADIJAH (RA)

Muhummad’s (pbuh) contacts with the Jewish and Christian Scholars were very limited. The most prominent Christian known to him was an old blind man called Waraqa ibn-Naufal who was a relative of the Prophet’s first wife Khadijah (r.a.). Although of Arab descent, he was a convert to Christianity and was very well versed with the New Testament. The Prophet only met him twice, first when Waraqa was worshipping at the Kaaba (before the Prophetic Mission) and he kissed the Prophet’s forehead affectionately; the second occasion was when the Prophet went to meet Waraqa after receiving the first revelation. Waraqa died three years later and the revelation continued for about 23 years. It is ridiculous to assume that Waraqa was the source of the contents of the Qur’an.

3. PROPHET’S RELIGIOUS DISCUSSIONS WITH THE JEWS AND CHRISTIANS

It is true that the Prophet did have religious discussions with the Jews and Christians but they took place in Madinah more than 13 years after the revelation of the Qur’an had started. The allegation that these Jews and Christians were the source is perverse, since in these discussions Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was performing the roles of a teacher and of a preacher while inviting them to embrace Islam and pointing out that they had deviated from their true teachings of Monotheism. Several of these Jews and Christians later embraced Islam.

4. THE PROPHET LEARNT THE QUR’AN FROM THOSE JEWS AND CHRISTIANS THAT HE MET OUTSIDE ARABIA

All historical records available show that Muhummad (pbuh) had made only three trips outside Makkah before his Prophethood:

1.

At the age of 9 he accompanied his mother to Madinah.
2.

Between the age of 9 and 12, he accompanied his uncle Abu-Talib on a business trip to Syria.
3.

At the age of 25 he led Khadija’s Caravan to Syria.

It is highly imaginary to assume that the Qur’an resulted from the occasional chats and meetings with the Christians or Jews from any of the above three trips.

5. LOGICAL GROUNDS TO PROVE THAT THE PROPHET DID NOT LEARN THE QUR’AN FROM JEWS OR CHRISTIANS

1. The day-to-day life of the Prophet was an open book for all to see. In fact a revelation came asking people to give the Prophet (pbuh) privacy in his own home. If the Prophet had been meeting people who told him what to say as a revelation from God, this would not have been hidden for very long.
2. The extremely prominent Quraish nobles who followed the Prophet and accepted Islam were wise and intelligent men who would have easily noticed anything suspicious about the way in which the Prophet brought the revelations to them - more so since the Prophetic mission lasted 23 years.
3. The enemies of the Prophet kept a close watch on him in order to find proof for their claim that he was a liar - they could not point out even a single instance when the Prophet may have had a secret rendezvous with particular Jews and Christians.
4. It is inconceivable that any human author of the Qur’an would have accepted a situation in which he received no credit whatsoever for originating the Qur’an.

Thus, historically and logically it cannot be established that there was a human source for the Qur’an.

6. MUHUMMAD (PBUH) WAS AN ILLITERATE

The theory that Muhummad (pbuh) authored the Qur’an or copied from other sources can be disproved by the single historical fact that he was illiterate.

Allah testifies Himself in the Qur’an
In Surah Al-Ankabut chapter no.29 verse 48

"And thou was not (able) to recite a Book before this (Book came), nor art thou (able) to transcribe it with thy right hand: in that case, indeed, would the talkers of vanities have doubted."
[Al-Qur’an 29:48]

Allah (swt) knew that many would doubt the authenticity of the Qur’an and would ascribe it to Prophet Muhummad (pbuh). Therefore Allah in His Divine Wisdom chose the last and final Messenger to be an ‘Ummi’, i.e. unlettered, so that the talkers of vanity would not then have the slightest justification to doubt the Prophet. The accusation of his enemies that he had copied the Qur’an from other sources and rehashed it all in a beautiful language might have carried some weight, but even this flimsy pretence has been deprived to the unbeliever and the cynic.

Allah reconfirms in the Qur’an in Surah Al A’raf chapter 7 verse 157:

"Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (Scriptures) in the Law and the Gospel"

The prophecy of coming of the unlettered Prophet (pbuh) is also mentioned in the Bible in the book of Isaiah chapter 29 verse 12.

"And the book is delivered to him that is not learned."
[Isaiah 29:12]

The Qur’an testifies in no less than four different places that the Prophet (pbuh) was illiterate. It is also mentioned in Surah A’raf chapter 7 verse 158 and in Surah Al-Jumu’a chapter 62 verse 2.

7. ARABIC VERSION OF THE BIBLE WAS NOT PRESENT

The Arabic version of the Bible was not present at the time of Prophet Muhummad (pbuh). The earliest Arabic version of the Old Testament is that of R. Saadias Gaon of 900 C.E. - more than 250 years after the death of our beloved Prophet. The oldest Arabic version of the new Testament was published by Erpenius in 1616 C.E. - about a thousand years after the demise of our Prophet.

8. SIMILARITIES IN THE QUR’AN AND THE BIBLE DUE TO COMMON SOURCE

Similarities between the Qur’an and the Bible does not necessarily mean that the former has been copied from the latter. In fact it gives evidence that both of them are based on a common third source; all divine revelations came from the same source - the one universal God. No matter what human changes were introduced into some of these Judeo-Christian and other older religious scriptures that had distorted their originality, there are some areas that have remained free from distortion and thus are common to many religions.

It is true that there are some similar parallels between the Qur’an and the Bible but this is not sufficient to accuse Muhummad (pbuh) of compiling or copying from the Bible. The same logic would then also be applicable to teachings of Christianity and Judaism and thus one could wrongly claim that Jesus (pbuh) was not a genuine Prophet (God forbid) and that he simply copied from the Old Testament.

The similarities between the two signify a common source that is one true God and the continuation of the basic message of monotheism and not that the later prophets have plagiarised from the previous prophets.

If someone copies during an examination he will surely not write in the answer sheet that he has copied from his neighbour or Mr. XYZ. Prophet Muhummad (pbuh) gave due respect and credit to all the previous prophets (pbut). The Qur’an also mentions the various revelations given by Almighty God to different prophets.

9. MUSLIMS BELIEVE IN THE TAURAH, ZABOOR, INJEEL AND QUR’AN

Four revelations of Allah (swt) are mentioned by name in the Qur’an: the Taurah, the Zaboor, the Injeel and the Qur’an.

Taurah, the revelation i.e. the Wahi given to Moosa (a. s.) i.e. Moses (pbuh).
Zaboor, the revelation i.e. the Wahi given to Dawood (a.s.) i.e. David (pbuh).
Injeel, the revelation i.e. the Wahi given to Isa (A.S.) ie. Jesus (pbuh).
‘Al-Qur’an’, the last and final Wahi i.e. revelation given to the last and final Messenger Muhammad (pbuh).

It is an article of faith for every Muslim to believe in all the Prophets of God and all revelations of God. However, the present day Bible has the first five books of the Old Testament attributed to Moses and the Psalms attributed to David. Moreover the New Testament or the four Gospels of the New Testament are not the Taurah, the Zaboor or the Injeel, which the Qur’an refers to. These books of the present day Bible may partly contain the word of God but these books are certainly not the exact, accurate and complete revelations given to the prophets.

The Qur’an presents all the different prophets of Allah as belonging to one single brotherhood; all had a similar prophetic mission and the same basic message. Because of this, the fundamental teachings of the major faiths cannot be contradictory, even if there has been a considerable passage of time between the different prophetic missions, because the source of these missions was one: Almighty God, Allah. This is why the Qur’an says that the differences which exist between various religions are not the responsibility of the prophets, but of the followers of these prophets who forgot part of what they had been taught, and furthermore, misinterpreted and changed the scriptures. The Qur’an cannot therefore be seen as a scripture which competes with the teachings of Moses, Jesus and the other prophets. On the contrary, it confirms, completes and perfects the messages that they brought to their people.

Another name for the Qur’an is the ‘The Furqan’ which means the criteria to judge the right from the wrong, and it is on the basis of the Qur’an that we can decipher which part of the previous scriptures can be considered to be the word of God.

10. SCIENTIFIC COMPARISON BETWEEN QUR’AN AND BIBLE

If you glance through the Bible and the Qur’an you may find several points which appear to be exactly the same in both of them, but when you analyse them closely, you realise that there is a difference of ‘chalk and cheese’ between them. Only based on historical details it is difficult for someone who is neither conversant with Christianity or Islam to come to a firm decision as to which of the scriptures is true; however if you verify the relevant passages of both the scriptures against scientific knowledge, you will yourself realize the truth.

1.

Creation of the Universe in Six Days
As per the Bible, in the first book of Genesis in Chapter One, the universe was created in six days and each day is defined as a twenty-four hours period. Even though the Qur’an mentions that the universe was created in six ‘Ayyaams’, ‘Ayyaam’ is the plural of years; this word has two meanings: firstly, it means a standard twenty-four hours period i.e. a day, and secondly, it also means stage, period or epoch which is a very long period of time.

When the Qur’an mentions that the universe was created in six ‘Ayyaams’, it refers to the creation of the heavens and the earth in six long periods or epochs; scientists have no objection to this statement. The creation of the universe has taken billions of years, which proves false or contradicts the concept of the Bible which states that the creation of the Universe took six days of twenty-four hour durations each.
2.

Sun Created After the Day
The Bible says in chapter 1, verses 3-5, of Genesis that the phenomenon of day and night was created on the first day of creation of the Universe by God. The light circulating in the universe is the result of a complex reaction in the stars; these stars were created according to the Bible (Genesis chapter 1 verse 14 to 19) on the fourth day. It is illogical to mention the result that is the light (the phenomenon of day and night) was created on the first day of Creation when the cause or source of the light was created three days later. Moreover the existence of evening and morning as elements of a single day is only conceivable after the creation of the earth and its rotation around the sun. In contrast with the contents of the Bible on this issue, the Qur’an does not give any unscientific sequence of Creation. Hence it is absolutely absurd to say that Prophet Muhummad (pbuh) copied the passages pertaining to the creation of the universe from the Bible but missed out this illogical and fantastic sequence of the Bible.
3.

Creation of the Sun, The Earth and the Moon
According to the Bible, Book of Genesis, chapter 1, verses 9 to 13, the earth was created on the third day, and as per verses 14 to 19, the sun and the moon were created on the fourth day. The earth and the moon emanated, as we know, from their original star, the Sun. Hence to place the creation of the sun and the moon after the creation of the earth is contrary to the established idea about the formation of the solar system.
4.

Vegetation Created on the third day and Sun on the fourth day
According to the Bible, Book of Genesis, chapter 1, verses 11-13, vegetation was created on the third day along with seed-bearing grasses, plants and trees; and further on as per verses 14-19, the sun was created on the fourth day. How is it scientifically possible for the vegetation to have appeared without the presence of the sun, as has been stated in the Bible?

If Prophet Muhummad (pbuh) was indeed the author of the Qur’an and had copied its contents from the Bible, how did he manage to avoid the factual errors that the Bible contains? The Qur’an does not contain any statements which are incompatible with scientific facts.
5.

The Sun and the Moon both Emit light
According to the Bible both the sun and the moon emit their own light. In the Book of Genesis, chapter 1, verse 16 says, "And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night".

Science tells us today that the moon does not have its own light. This confirms the Qur’anic concept that the light of the moon is a reflected light. To think that 1400 years ago, Prophet Muhummad (pbuh) corrected these scientific errors in the Bible and then copied such corrected passages in the Qur’an is to think of something impossible.

11. ADAM (PBUH), THE FIRST MAN ON EARTH, LIVED 5,800 YEARS AGO

As per the genealogy of Jesus Christ given in the Bible, from Jesus through Abraham (pbuh) to the first man on earth i.e. Adam (pbuh), Adam appeared on the earth approximately 5800 years ago:

1. 1948 years between Adam (pbuh) and Abraham (pbuh)
2. Approximately 1800 years between Abraham (pbuh) and Jesus (pbuh)
3. 2000 years from Jesus (pbuh) till today

These figures are further confused by the fact that the Jewish calendar is currently on or about 5800 years old.

There is sufficient evidence from archaeological and anthropological sources to suggest that the first human being on earth was present tens of thousands of years ago and not merely 5,800 years ago as is suggested by the Bible.
The Qur’an too speaks about Adam (pbuh) as the first man on earth but it does not suggest any date or period of his life on earth, unlike the Bible - what the Bible says in this regard is totally incompatible with science.

12. NOAH (PBUH) AND THE FLOOD

The Biblical description of the flood in Genesis chapter 6, 7 and 8 indicates that the deluge was universal and it destroyed every living thing on earth, except those present with Noah (pbuh) in the ark. The description suggests that the event took place 1656 years after the creation of Adam (pbuh) or 292 years before the birth of Abraham, at a time when Noah (pbuh) was 600 years old. Thus the flood may have occurred in the 21st or 22nd Century B.C.

This story of the flood, as given in the Bible, contradicts scientific evidence from archaelogical sources which indicate that the eleventh dynasty in Egypt and the third dynasty in Babylonia were in existence without any break in civilisation and in a manner totally unaffected by any major calamity which may have occurred in the 21st century B.C. This contradicts the Biblical story that the whole world had been immersed in the flood water. In contrast to this, the Qur’anic presentation of the story of Noah and the flood does not conflict with scientific evidence or archaeological data; firstly, the Qur’an does not indicate any specific date or year of the occurance of that event, and secondly, according to the Qur’an the flood was not a universal phenomenon which destroyed complete life on earth. In fact the Qur’an specifically mentions that the flood was a localised event only involving the people of Noah.

It is illogical to assume that Prophet Muhummad (pbuh) had borrowed the story of the flood from the Bible and corrected the mistakes before mentioning it in the Qur’an.

13. MOSES (PBUH) AND PHARAOH OF THE EXODUS

The story of Moses (pbuh) and the Pharaoh of the Exodus are very much identical in the Qur’an and the Bible. Both scriptures agree that the Pharaoh drowned when he tried to pursue Moses (pbuh) and led the Israelites across a stretch of water that they crossed. The Qur’an gives an additional piece of information in Surah Yunus chapter 10 verse 92:

"This day shall We save thee in thy body, that thou mayest be a sign to those who come after thee! But verily, many among mankind are heedless of Our Signs!"
[Al-Qur’an 10:92]

Dr. Maurice Bucaille, after a thorough research proved that although Rameses II was known to have persecuted the Israelites as per the Bible, he actually died while Moses (pbuh) was taking refuge in Median. Rameses II’s son Merneptah who succeeded him as Pharaoh drowned during the exodus. In 1898, the mummified body of Merneptah was found in the valley of Kings in Egypt. In 1975, Dr. Maurice Bucaille with other doctors received permission to examine the Mummy of Merneptah, the findings of which proved that Merneptah probably died from drowning or a violent shock which immediately preceeded the moment of drowning. Thus the Qur’anic verse that we shall save his body as a sign, has been fulfilled by the Pharaohs’ body being kept at the Royal Mummies room in the Egyptian Museum in Cairo.

This verse of the Qur’an compelled Dr. Maurice Bucaille, who was a Christian then, to study the Qur’an. He later wrote a book ‘The Bible, the Qur’an and Science’, and confessed that the author of the Qur’an can be no one else besides God Himself. Thus he embraced Islam.

14. QUR’AN IS A BOOK FROM ALLAH

These evidences are sufficient to conclude that the Qur’an was not copied from the Bible, but that the Qur’an is the Furqaan - ‘the Criteria’ to judge right from wrong and it should be used to decipher which portion of the Bible may be considered as the Word of God.

The Qur’an itself testifies in Surah Sajda chapter 32 verse 1 to 3

Alif Laam Meem.

(This is) the revelation of the Book in which there is no doubt – from the Lord of the Worlds.

Or do they say, ‘He has forged it’? Nay, it is the Truth from thy Lord, that thou mayest admonish a people to whom no warner has come before thee: in order that they may receive guidance."
[Al-Qur’an 32:1-3]

 

[IbnAlAawam]

:salam2:

Mashaallah, may Allah reward you all for your responses. I was going to post a long reply as well but mashaallah, i do not see the need anymore:shake:
Even though the age of Aisha's marriage is debatable, I'll still share the following:

Interesting article regarding a very young mother.

Also

The hot-blooded Egyptian girls of ancient times could marry at the age of 10, and even then, premarital morals were free and easy, so that they were often sexually active before that. In courtship the female usually took the initiative. The ancient Egyptians were remarkably lacking in modern prudishness — “they spoke of sexual affairs with a directness alien to our late morality, adorned their very temples with pictures and bas-reliefs of startling anatomical candor, and supplied their dead with obscene literature to amuse them in the grave.” [Source: Page 166 of The Story of Civilization, Book 1, Our Oriental Heritage, by Will Durant]. Egyptian children generally became sexually active as soon Nature prompted such behavior. Indeed, virginity was unheard of in ancient Egypt. The ancient Egyptian language didn’t even have a word for “virgin”.

In Mesopotamia and among the Hebrews, marriages appear to have been consummated when the girl was 11 or 12 years old; in Egypt, according to one authority, sometimes as early as 6. [Source: Page 64, Sex in History by Reay Tannahill]

In any case, from reading about the personality of the prophet (saws) I have no doubt the purpose of marrying Aisha (ra) despite the age difference was for a specific purpose that is displayed in Aisha's (ra) life: After the death of our beloved prophet, Aisha (ra) was one of the main Islamic Law master. Her young age at the time of death of our beloved prophet (SAWS) ensured that she was one of the longest and most important serving Islamic Law Master, how many hadith hasn't she narrated? This, brother and sisters, was priceless to the early Islamic comunity as to us today! Al hamdulillah, Allah Akbar.


:salam2:

 

[TheHumbleWun]

Asalamalikum,

Not to mention, that killing of women and burying a baby girl was a common practice by the pagan Arabs at that time :astag: . They use to see women as ungrateful and unworthy. The Prophet (saw) lead the people of that time as an example to follow, by marrying a young/smart/worthy woman like Aisha (ra) to show that woman are also Allah's creation. The knowledge and wisdom of Allah is infinite. There is a reason why everything happened to the Prophet (saw) as a means for humankind to follow.

 

[Bluegazer]

Assalamu Alaikum,


Sister umm hussain posted part of an article in post #26 on this thread. It's an important article, so I'm going to re-post it, but in a different layout and I'll colour some parts in red, and I'll also emphasize certain parts.

De Imperatoribus Romanis​

An Online Encyclopedia of Roman Emperors​

Agnes-Anna of France,wife of Alexius II and Andronicus I of the Comneni Dynasty​

Lynda Garland​

University of New England, Australia​

Andrew Stone​

University of Western Australia​

The child empress Agnes of France was the spouse of two emperors of Byzantium, the boy emperor Alexius II Comnenus, and subsequently Andronicus I Comnenus, the latter's first cousin once removed. Agnes was born to King Louis VII of France's third wife, Adèle (or Alix) of Blois-Champagne, the daughter of Count Theobald II of Blois, in 1172. This made her the younger sister of the future French king Philip II Augustus. The house of Blois-Champagne was the second most powerful magnate house in France (after the house of Plantagenet). The emperor Manuel I Comnenus was looking for allies in the west, since the Peace of Venice in 1177 had effectively allied the Pope (Alexander III), the Holy Roman Empire, Venice, the other Italian communes and Sicily against him. After discussion with the count of Flanders, Philip of Alsace, who visited Constantinople in early 1178 on his way back from the Holy Land, Manuel sent an embassy, including Philip, to the French court over the winter of 1178-1179 to secure a match between his son Alexius (born in 1169) and the princess Agnes.[[1]] This match may have been opposed by the members of the house of Blois-Champagne, who were pro-German.[[2]]

According to William of Tyre, Agnes was only eight on her arrival at Constantinople, while Alexius was thirteen; in fact Alexius was born on 14 September 1169.[[3]] Child brides, whether Byzantines or foreign princesses, were the norm rather than the exception, especially from the late twelfth century. Irene Ducaena, wife of Alexius I Comnenus, was twelve at her marriage, and empress before she was fifteen; the Byzantine princess Theodora, Manuel's niece, was in her thirteenth year when she married Baldwin III of Jerusalem; and Margaret-Maria of Hungary married Isaac II Angelus at the age of nine. Agnes's age, then, was not unusual, especially as it was customary for young engaged couples in Constantinople to be brought up together in the house of the socially superior partner.[[4]]

Agnes boarded a ship in Genoa under the captaincy of Baldavino Guercio, and on arrival in Constantinople in the Easter of 1179 was greeted with an oration from the ex-Master of the Rhetors, Eustathius, Archbishop of Thessalonica.[[5]] Robert of Clari describes the rich entourage which accompanied Agnes to Constantinople:

Then the king arrayed his sister [sic] very richly and sent her with the messengers to Constantinople, and many of his people with her... When they were come, the emperor did very great honor to the damsel and made great rejoicing over her and her people'.[[6]]

Agnes was received with great festivities, including a fleet of boats colourfully festooned, and her arrival was heralded in a lengthy production of welcoming verses by an anonymous author, in which the description of her attractions reaches an unusual degree of hyperbole with her 'lively form' being compared to air and crystal. The verses record how more than seventy ladies of the imperial house came out to greet her, with one sent ahead to attire her appropriately as an Augusta (empress) for the occasion, while Maria Porphyrogenita is shown as paying homage to her new sister-in-law in a tent outside the walls: the arrival of Agnes in the capital and this adoption of Byzantine court costume is illustrated in the manuscript.[[7]] Agnes is described as outshining even her new sister-in-law, who, with her fiancé Béla of Hungary had been Manuel's heir before the birth of her brother Alexius II, and who had since been offered as a bride to William II of Sicily, John Lackland, the youngest son of Henry II of England, and Henry, the son of Frederick Barbarossa.[[8]] The fact that Maria, who was to be one of the champions of the anti-Latin faction in the city, is shown as doing obeisance to the western-born empress emphasised the superiority of the new Latin princess over her sister-in-law and publicly demonstrated the success of Manuel's pro-western policy.[[9]]

Manuel's two surviving children were to celebrate a double wedding. Maria was to marry Renier, the son of William the Old of Montferrat (in north-western Italy), who was considerably younger than herself, and Renier was granted the title Caesar and assumed the name John.[[10]] At the same time, the young prince Alexius was to marry Agnes, though a further wedding ceremony at a later date may have been envisaged, as Agnes is invariably called Alexius' bride, not his wife, in the sources. The ceremonies took place in the palace on 2 March 1180, and were conducted by the patriarch Theodosius. Agnes now took the official name of Anna. The wedding banquet was spectacularly conducted in the Hippodrome, and once again, Eustathius produced a speech to celebrate the occasion,[[11]] describing the way in which the starting stalls were converted to kitchens and the poor were able to help themselves to the leftovers.

The lavishness of the entertainment was obviously intended not only to win the approval of the inhabitants of the city, but also to dazzle westerners with Byzantine magnificence and sophistication:

'any attempt to describe in detail all the wonders of those days would be utterly futile ... the games of the circus which the inhabitants of Constantinople call hippodromes, and the glorious spectacles of varied nature shown to the people with great pomp during the days of the celebration; the imperial magnificence of the vestments and the royal robes adorned with a profusion of precious stones and pearls of great weight; the vast amount of massive gold and silver furniture in the palace, of untold value ... the valuable draperies adorning the royal abode ... the numerous servants and members of the court, the magnificence of the nuptial splendour, and the generous gifts which the emperor lavished on both his own people and on strangers.'[[12]]

We hear little of Agnes during Alexius' reign (24 September 1180 to prior to 24 September 1183). It is highly unlikely that the match was consummated, as it was customary to import imperial brides from overseas at a young age to enable them to become acquainted with Greek and with their future ceremonial duties; certainly it was unusual under normal circumstances for Byzantine girls to marry before the age of twelve. However, shortly before Alexius completed three years as emperor, Manuel's first cousin Andronicus made himself co-emperor and then usurped Alexius's position altogether, putting him out of the way by having him throttled. Nicetas Choniates then, with morbid relish, claims that Andronicus (who was born c. 1118 and was thus about 65 years of age) sexually exploited the eleven-year old princess.[[13]] Despite the fact that his marriage to Anna, some fifty years his junior, may well have been made for political reasons -- and Andronicus had portraits of Mary of Antioch in the capital replaced with ones of himself either alone or accompanied by his child-bride[[14]]-- Choniates makes the most of the opportunity to ridicule Andronicus, his age and the incongruity of the alliance ('the overripe suitor embracing the unripe maiden, the dotard the damsel with pointed breasts, the shriveled and languid old man the rosy-fingered girl dripping with the dew of love').[[15]] According to Eustathius of Thessalonica as well, the match was repugnant to her, as she regretted Alexius' death and loathed Andronicus:[[16]] She was the young daughter of the king of France, and as everybody knew hated the union because she was full of intelligence; and after having experienced a different kind of gentle loving, she loathed the roughness of Andronicus. Sometimes, they say, she would imagine in her dreams that she saw the young Alexius, and would cry out his name, and she alone knew what she suffered.


Andronicus had previously indulged in many amorous and romantic adventures (with Manuel's niece, Eudocia, daughter of Manuel's brother Andronicus; with another niece, Theodora, daughter of Manuel's brother Isaac and widow of Baldwin III of Jerusalem; and with Philippa of Antioch, Manuel's sister-in-law). As emperor, despite his young bride, he openly consorted with prostitutes and concubines, both in and out of doors, and Choniates informs us that Andronicus sought to attain both 'the sexual prowess of the cuttlefish', and that of Heracles with the fifty-one daughters of Thyestes, resorting to ointments and other aphrodisiac aids, such as regularly eating an (extremely repugnant) animal similar to the crocodile, for this purpose.[[17]]


Nevertheless, Agnes' attitude towards Andronicus may have changed over the following two years. When he was in turn ousted by Isaac II Angelus (12 September 1185), and fled for his life in a boat towards the direction of Russia, he took both Agnes, and the prostitute Maraptike of whom he was rapturously enamoured, with him, along with a few attendants.[[18]] However, contrary winds thwarted his plans to escape, and he was brought back with Agnes and Maraptike to Constantinople. In an attempt to persuade his captors on board ship to release him, he sang a pathetic lament about his past life and present calamity, in which the women joined, cleverly responding in song to his lamentations.[[19]] However, his efforts were in vain and he suffered a particularly horrible death in the Hippodrome.


We hear nothing of Agnes' life subsequent to the death of Andronicus in Byzantine sources. However, nearly twenty years later, in 1203, Robert of Clari states that the leaders of the Fourth Crusade found her living in a palace married to a 'high man of the city', Theodore Branas, who is first heard of in 1189 as commander of the Alans (Georgian mercenaries) against Frederick Barbarossa's Germans.[[20]] The Branas family was related to the Comneni and Angeli, and had produced prominent military commanders from the eleventh century. Theodore's mother was one of the daughters of Manuel's sister Eudocia and Theodore Vatatzes, and thus a cousin of Alexius II. Theodore's father, Alexius Branas, who had prevented the Normans from moving against Constantinople in 1185, had revolted against Isaac II Angelus shortly afterwards, perhaps in 1187. Alexius' head was cut off and brought to Isaac in triumph, and Choniates praises the restraint of the widow when shown the severed head and remarks that Manuel had praised her as the 'flower of his family'. Theodore thereupon inherited his father's opposition to Isaac II and was to support Alexius III Angelus' successful rebellion against his brother Isaac in 1195.[[21]] Theodore was then to be employed by Alexius III against the Turks and in 1199 was governor of Kouperion.[[22]]


It is unclear when Agnes married Branas, but a dowager empress was a valuable prize and presumably the match took place at the instigation of Isaac II to attempt to ensure the loyalty of the Branas family to the current regime. Agnes received the barons of the Fourth Crusade as befitted a Byzantine empress -- with bad grace, according to Robert, and would talk only through an interpreter, pretending that she knew no French.[[23]] She was now over thirty years of age and had, after all, spent most of her life in the Byzantine capital and at the Byzantine court. During the sack of the city she was to shelter in the palace of Boucoleon along with the ex-empress Margaret-Maria of Hungary and several other imperial women.[[24]] According to Geoffrey of Villehardouin, however, Agnes' husband was the 'only' Greek who sided with the crusaders, and he was well repaid by them for his support. As a vassal of the Latin Empire, he was made lord of Didymoteichon and Adrianople in Thrace, where Agnes apparently accompanied him.[[25]] According to Aubry de Trois-Fontaines (s.v. AD 1205), she had a daughter who married Narjand de Toucy, cousin of Guy de Dampierre. Agnes thereupon disappears from history but the Branas family, including several notable Theodores, continued to accumulate vast estates and intermarry with other noble families, including the Palaeologue dynasty.



Bibliography


Primary sources


Anna Comnena, Anne Comnène, Alexiade, ed. & tr. B. Leib, 3 vols. (Paris: Budé, 1937-45, repr. 1967); trans. as The Alexiad of Anna Comnena, by E.R.A. Sewter (Harmondsworth: Penguin, 1979).

Nicetas Choniates, Historia, ed. J.-L. van Dieten, 2 vols., Corpus Fontium Historiae Byzantinae 11, Berlin and New York, 1975; trans. as O City of Byzantium, Annals of Niketas Choniates, by H.J. Magoulias (Detroit, 1984).

Eustathius of Thessalonica, Eustathii Thessalonicensis opera minora, ed. P. Wirth, Corpus Fontium Historiae Byzantinae 32 (Berlin and New York, 2000).

Eustathius of Thessalonica, Eustathii Metropolitanae Thessalonicensis Opuscula, ed. T.L.F. Tafel (Frankfurt am Main, 1832, repr. Amsterdam, 1964).

Eustathius of Thessalonica, The Capture of Thessaloniki, ed. J.R. Melville-Jones (Canberra: Byzantina Australiensia, 1988).

Geoffrey of Villehardouin, La conquête de Constantinople, ed. and trans. Edmond Faral (Paris: Les Belles Lettres, 2nd. ed., 1961).

I.D. Polemis, 'Ho logos epi tois theorikois demotelesi trapezomasi tou Eustathiou Thessalonikes,' Parnassos, 36 (1994), 402-20.

Robert of Clari, La conquête de Constantinople, ed. Philippe Lauer (Paris, 1924); trans. Edgar Holmes McNeal, The Conquest of Constantinople (New York, 1966).

William, Archbishop of Tyre, 'Historia rerum in partibus transmarinis gestarum,' in Recueil des historiens des croisades. Historiens occidentaux, I.1 & 2 (Paris, 1844), trans. as A History of Deeds Done Beyond the Sea, by Emily Atwater Babcock & A.C. Krey, 2 vols. (New York: Columbia University Press, 1943).

Secondary sources

M. Angold, The Byzantine Empire, 1025-1204: a political history, 2nd ed. (London and New York: Longman, 1997).

M. Angold, Church and Society in Byzantium under the Comneni (Cambridge; Cambridge University Press, 1995).

H.-G. Beck, 'Byzanz und der Westen im 12. Jahrhundert', Vorträge und Forschungen, 12 (1969), 227-41.

C.M. Brand, Byzantium Confronts the West 1180-1204 (Cambridge Mass.: Harvard University Press, 1968).

F. Chalandon, Jean II Comnène (1118-1143) et Manuel I Comnène (1143-1180) (Paris: Picard, 1912; repr. New York: Burt Franklin, 1971).

F. Dölger, Regesten der Kaiserkunden des oströmischen Reiches, vol. 1.2 (Munich & Berlin: Oldenbourg, 1925).

W. Georgi, Friedrich Barbarossa und die auswärtigen Mächte (Frankfurt am Main, 1990).

Cecily Hinsdale, "Constructing a Byzantine Augusta: A Greek Book for a French Bride, " Art Bulletin. 87 (2005), 458-483.

E.M. Jeffreys, 'Western Infiltration of the Byzantine Aristocracy: Some Suggestions,' in The Byzantine Aristocracy IX to XII Centuries, ed. M. Angold (Oxford: BAR, 1984), 202-10.

M. Jeffreys, 'The Vernacular eisiterioi for Agnes of France,' in E.M. & M.J. Jeffreys & A. Moffatt (ed.), Byzantine Papers. Proceedings of the First Australian Byzantine Studies Conference (Canberra: Byzantina Australiensia, 1981), 101-115.

P. Magdalino, The Empire of Manuel I Komnenos, 1143-1180 (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1993).

D.M. Nicol, 'Mixed Marriages in Byzantium in the Thirteenth Century,' in Studies in Church History, ed. C.W. Dugmore and C. Duggan, 2 vols., (London/ Edinburgh, 1964), 1. 160-72 (= Byzantium. Its Ecclesiastical History and Relations with the Western World, London: Variorum, 1972, IV).

D.M. Nicol, 'Symbiosis and Integration. Some Graeco-Latin Families in Byzantium in the 11th to 13th Centuries,' Byzantinische Forschungen, 7 (1979), 113-35.

J. Spatharakis, The Portrait in Byzantine Illuminated Manuscripts (Leiden: Brill, 1976).

A.F. Stone, 'The Oration by Eustathios of Thessaloniki for Agnes of France: a Snapshot of Political Tension between Byzantium and the West,' Byzantion, 73 (2003), 112-26.

K. Varzos, He Genealogia ton Komnenon, 2 vols. (Thessalonica: Kentron Byzantinon erevnon, 1984).


Notes:

[[1]] W. Georgi, Friedrich Barbarossa und die auswärtigen Mächte (Frankfurt am Main, 1990), 324; K. Varzos, He Genealogia ton Komnenon (Thessalonica, 1984), 2.457-60; F. Dölger, Regesten der Kaiserkunden des oströmischen Reiches, vol. 1.2 (Munich & Berlin, 1925), no. 1531.

[[2]]A.F. Stone, 'The Oration by Eustathios of Thessaloniki for Agnes of France: a Snapshot of Political Tension between Byzantium and the West,' Byzantion, 73 (2003), 112-26.

[[3]]William of Tyre, History of the Deeds Done Beyond the Sea, 13.4; P. Wirth, 'Wann wurde Kaiser Alexios II. geboren?' Byzantinische Zeitschrift, 49 (1956), 65-7.

[[4]]One example being Anna Comnena, who was put into the care of her future mother-in-law, the dowager empress Mary of Alania, before she was eight years old so she could be brought up with her fiancé Constantine (Anna Comnena, Alexiad 3.1.4; cf. 2.5.1 for a further example).

[[5]]Eustathius of Thessalonica, Eustathii Thessalonicensis opera minora, ed. P. Wirth, Corpus Fontium Historiae Byzantinae 32 (Berlin and New York, 2000), 250-60, also in V.E. Regel & N.I. Novosadskij, Fontes Rerum Byzantinarum. Rhetorum Saeculi XII Orationes Politicae, I (1-2) (St. Petersburg, 1892; repr. Leipzig, 1982), V, 80-92.

[[6]]Robert of Clari, La conquête de Constantinople, XX, ed. Philippe Lauer (Paris, 1924), 19; trans. Edgar Holmes McNeal, The Conquest of Constantinople (New York, 1966), 49.

[[7]]M.J. Jeffreys, 'The Vernacular "Eisiterioi" for Agnes of France,' in E.M. & M.J. Jeffreys & A. Moffatt (ed.), Byzantine Papers. Proceedings of the First Australian Byzantine Studies Conference (Canberra,1981) 101-2; J. Spatharakis, The Portrait in Byzantine Illuminated Manuscripts (Leiden: Brill, 1976), 213-14, 216-18; P. Magdalino, The Empire of Manuel I Komnenos, 1143-1180 (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1993), 245. In the upper left hand corner she faces a group of Byzantine court ladies, who wear wide-sleeved purple robes and large fan-shaped headdresses; behind her are her western court ladies; at this point she is simply dressed with her hair in a plait. In the upper right corner she is clothed in Byzantine costume, a purple robe with rich gold decoration. The lower zone shows her flanked by Byzantine ladies paying her court: see Spatharakis 229.

[[8]]Choniates, Historia, 112, 128, 137, 170; Magdalino, Empire of Manuel I Komnenos, 89, 92; on Manuel's marriage policy, see Magdalino, 209-17.

[[9]]M. Jeffreys, 'Vernacular "Eisiterioi",' 108

[[10]]Choniates, Historia, 171, 200.

[[11]]Eustathius, Opera minora, 170-181.

[[12]]William of Tyre, History of the Deeds Done Beyond the Sea, 22.4 (trans. Babcock and Krey, 2.450).

[[13]]Choniates, Historia, 275-6.

[[14]]Choniates, Historia, 332-3.

[[15]]Choniates, Historia, 275-6 (trans. Magoulias, O City of Byzantium, 153).

[[16]]Eustathius of Thessalonica, Capture of Thessaloniki, 44, ed. Jones, 52.

[[17]]Choniates, Historia, 321-2, 347; Robert of Clari, XX-XXI, ed. Lauer,19-22; cf. L. Garland, 'How Different, How Very Different from the Home Life of Our Own Dear Queen: Sexual Morality at the Late Byzantine Court, with Especial Reference to the Eleventh and Twelfth Centuries,' Byzantine Studies / Études Byzantines, new series 1-2, (1995-1996), 1-62.

[[18]]Choniates, Historia, 346-7.

[[19]]Choniates, Historia, 347-9.

[[20]]Choniates, Historia, 409.

[[21]]Choniates, Historia, 376-89, 450-1.

[[22]]Choniates, Historia, 474-5, 500.

[[23]]Robert of Clari LIII, ed. Lauer, 54.

[[24]]Geoffrey of Villehardouin, La conquête de Constantinople, 249, ed. and trans. Edmond Faral (Paris, 2nd. ed., 1961), 2.50-2.

[[25]]Geoffrey of Villehardouin, La conquête de Constantinople, 403, 413 and 423, ed. Faral, 2.214-6, 226 and 236; Choniates, Historia, 637, 629, 642, 646; D.M. Nicol & S. Bendall, 'Anna of Savoy in Thessalonica: the Numismatic Evidence,' Revue Numismatique, series 6, 19 (1977), 87-102.

Copyright (C) 2005, Lynda Garland and Andrew Stone. This file may be copied on the condition that the entire contents, including the header and this copyright notice, remain intact.

Source: http://www.roman-emperors.org/aggiefran.htm


You'll notice that the Eastern Roman Emperor Isaac II Angelus married Margaret-Maria of Hungary when she was nine years old.


The following is a wikipedia article about Maria, the wife of Isaac II Angelus:

Margaret (Margit) (1175 - 1223), was the eldest daughter of King Bela III of Hungary and his second wife Agnes of Antioch. Her maternal grandparents were Raynald of Chatillon and Constance of Antioch.

In 1185, Margaret married the Eastern Roman Emperor Isaac II Angelos. They had two sons:

John (Iōannēs) Angelos.
Manuel Angelos.
Her husband died in February, 1204. Later that year the widowed Margaret married Boniface of Montferrat, who was soon to become king of Thessalonica. To Boniface she bore a son Demetrius in 1207. In the same year, on his father's death, Demetrius became king of Thessalonica.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_of_Hungary


The wikipedia article says that she was born in 1175 and married in 1185. That does not necessarily mean that she was ten years old when she married. She could have been born in December 1175 and got married in January 1185, and that would make her 9 years and one month old, and that's just one possibility.


This is a very strong point against all those who criticize the marriage of our Prophet Muhammad [peace be upon him] to Aisha [may Allah be pleased with her].


Here was an Eastern Roman Emperor, who in 1185 AD [i.e after more than five hundred and fifty three (553) years of the death of the Prophet {peace be upon him] in 632 AD] married a nine year old princess. And you have to bear in mind that marriages in these days were only religious, meaning that there weren't any civil marriages like these days. This Emperor married this nine year old princess in a ceremony conducted by the Church clergy, and Christians attack us Muslims on the marriage of our Prophet [peace be upon him] to Aisha [may Allah be pleased with her].


Best regards,

Bluegazer

Wassalamu Alaikum

 

[Erik]

There is only one Allah, Allah and no other Allah.
Allah was before, Allah is today, Allah will always be in the future Allah.
Therefore, nothing has or can be explaned in time!! It cant!!
if so, that would mean that Allah would change and Allah does not change! Allah will never change, Allah is Allah now before and forever.
to the matter, Allah or not, time of time or not. I dont dare to speak more but I let you know by yourself.

 

[TheHumbleWun]

There is only one Allah, Allah and no other Allah.
Allah was before, Allah is today, Allah will always be in the future Allah.
Therefore, nothing has or can be explaned in time!! It cant!!
if so, that would mean that Allah would change and Allah does not change! Allah will never change, Allah is Allah now before and forever.
to the matter, Allah or not, time of time or not. I dont dare to speak more but I let you know by yourself.

Hi Erik,

I'm sort of confused because in one thread you associate partners to Allah (Arabic word for God) :astag: but here you saying there is no God but God. Please help clear this out for us.

 

[ajazz]

Thanks for the reply aAZ, I did not know that Mohammed, peace be opon him could not write or read and after 23 years spent beeing able to show the word of God. 1400 years ago one thing but today, is it ok for a man according to the word of God to look at a girl as possible wife who is the age of 12?
If a man looks at my daughter when she is 14 and that man is older then 20, I would take it, he thinks my daughter is 17.
If a man try or touch my daughter when she is 14, I would rather die then allow it. /eRIK

peace be upon you ,

regarding aisha(r), why don't you check out this link

http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8485