Interesting discussion with the father...

[jonas1993]

Hello All!

Well as I have posted here before and many of you have read... my father calls himself a secular Muslim.

And he is visiting me here in UAE right now so sorry I have been busy as he has taken me out to eat alot and to shop.. SO I have not been checking my internet much..

But we had an interesting discussion... My father calls himself a secular muslim.. that means he keeps religion maybe 1 or 2 days a year and otherwise follows nothing. He feels this is the way of the future he says as in the past the Christian and Jewish west was once devout.. and now they have been forced to be secular and accept secularism. And this is for those who have not read my previous post incase they need background!

Well we had an interesting discussion, he gave me champagne and beer and since I was raised 100% secular until recently I used to drink as I had no clue to be honest about the rules... But when I said I don't want it he said a quote that he claims Kemal Ataturk said... "muslims should learn to drink wine and champagne with dinner; as all civilized people drink champagne and wine".

Later he also stated that the first leader of Tunisia(bourgibha i think) was right to pubicly remove the Hijab from women in front of the press. As he claims the Hijab has no place in a civilized society and neither does a headscarf or any religious symbol of any kind belong in public. Nor does a cross, fez, and traditional arab dress, a yarmulke, a nuns habit.. He said that public places should be free of all vestiges of religion and that the only place you should wear that is in the house of worship. And he also stated the Hijab is sexist and anti woman... any opinions on what to counter with?

Should I just be nice as he technically owns the place I live and not argue?

 

[brmm]

My comments

Dear brother Jonas,
maybe I did not get ur question.

U should know an important fact which is:
The Muslim is the one who accept the Islam in his heart and do his prayers to be recognized as a Muslim.
The Muslim is not the one from a Muslim parents.

If ur father try to give u examples for strayed people who born from Muslim parents but they were not Muslims in their heart and practice, such examples worth Nothing, they are fishy !

If ur father talked to u again about this ask him the following question:
Should I believe u and dis-believe Allah, your God & my God ?!

ALcohol is forbidden in the Quran. Thats it no any further discussion. Y can NOT even carry it or give it to some one.

Ur duty against ur father is to respect him, not to drink Alcohol and make Allah angry with both u and him.

BRMM

 

[dunno]

Kamal ataturk? An obvious enemy of Islam? Now we are following him? :astag:
Those examples mean nothing. There is no such thing as a "secular" Muslim.
If someone believes that the things allah has made haram are halal he is a kaffar.

I'm not calling your father a kaffar as no one knows what is in his heart and that the main principle of ahl al sunnah to never call a certain individual a "kaffer".
All civilized people? Kamal and other leaders like him are nothing but slaves to the western life-style. They are people who gave up their own culture and followed the western culture blindly due to them having an inferior complex.
I would never follow a "loser" especially when that loser has lost the afterlife.

Tell your father that the first president of Tunisia is hated by its people for his opression. Also, he also felt that he was inferior to the west. How can you follow such a person? He sold his religion so France would be pleased with him. The same goes the last president of Tunisia. He did everything France wanted him to do, and when his people removed him the French government refused to issue a visa for him. How ironic!

 

[auroran]

:salam2:

Akhi don't let your father get in the way. Would you rather anger Allaah azza wa jal or your father? Allaah has ordered us not to drink, it doesn't matter how 'civilized' people drink it. Back then cigarettes were used by 'cool' people and now we know that smokers are just killing themselves.

I don't know who this Kamal guy is but I don't know why your dad is following such man, telling us to learn to drink wine when the Qur'aan forbids it.

Also the hijaab is not oppressive, seriously I'm getting annoyed with 'hijaab and niqaab is oppression'. Hijaab is ordered by Allaah subhaana wa ta'aala so the females slaves must do so. It's not sexist, ask any sister with hijaab. If you want to wear whatever you want then wear it at home, why show your adornment to strange men.

Please brother if you care about the next life, eternal life, then do not follow the footsteps of your father. Insha' Allaah ta'aala you're in my du'aa'.

:salam2:

 

[xAllahKnowsBestx]

Assalamu 'alaykum brother.

Soo.. Your father's a "Secular Muslim"? That is such an oxymoron. :/ What you said about your father's arguments just reminded me of a video I watched a while ago. The brother said, "The biggest injustice that is done to you is when the truth is twisted and you are made to think that chastity and piousness are signs of backwardness and oppression, while immorality and abject practices and the wickedness are presented as signs of progressiveness and enlightenment. This is how it goes these days." It just doesn't make any sense. I don't see how the hijab could possibly oppress women, while Western male-dominated fashion industries are out there, setting women "free" and telling them how to be. If the hijab is so anti-woman, why would our sisters in France be forced to *remove* it, by men?

Brother, you could be nice to him and still defend Islam. Just because he's your father, it doesn't mean you should earn the wrath of Allah (swt) just to please him. May Allah (swt) guide him, insha'Allah. =)

 

[salahdin]

The Prophet sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam said: "You will imitate the nations before you very closely to the extent that if they went into a lizard's hole, you would enter it as well” his companions, may Allaah be pleased with them, inquired: “(Do you mean) the Jews and Christians, O Messenger of Allaah?” He sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam replied: "Who else?” (Bukhaari & Muslim).

The Prophet sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam also said: "The Day of Judgment will not come until my Nation closely imitates the nations before them.” It was asked: “Like the Persians and Romans, Messenger of Allaah?” He sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam replied: "Who are the nations (I could mean) except those?” (Bukhaari).

 

[jonas1993]

clarification

I did not drink what he gave me... I now just have to find a way to dispose of it...

As I am trying to learn how to be a good Muslim. And my question was should i argue/defend Islam to him? Or since I want to be nice just not state anything?

Sorry for my question not being clear and I can tell you I did not drink what he gave me. I used to before I knew it is Haram. And I hope Allah forgives me for my mistakes. I actually find his comments about the Hijab/Niqab to be ironic because I remember reading that Muslim women tend to be more educated then western women. As there is a higher percent of Muslim women doctors among the general population of Muslims then non Muslims. I did tell him that because if the hijab is oppressive how come so many Muslim women are doctors? And he did not answer me. Thank you for keeping me in prayers!

 

[masihuddin]

If a person wants to enter Islam. He or she has to enter fully. Either you are a believer or nonbeliever. Allah SWT, says in the second last verse of suran Bakarah, " apostle believes in what has been revealed to him by His Lord and do do the faithful, His books, His apostles. We discriminate against none of His apostles. They say we hear and obey, grant us your forgivness Lord,to You we shall all return. If your father instead of obeying the injunction revealed in the Holy Quran on wine and modesty, then you can decide wheher he is a muslim or non-muslim. Seclar or devout.

 

[World Peace]

Asalam aleacom warahmato Allah wabarakato brother jonas1993

I hope the following information help provide a better understanding.

Islam is Peace
http://theradiantlight.blogspot.com/2010/02/tolerance-of-prophet-peace-be-upon-him.html

By a German Diplomat
http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19502
______________________

The following was taken from www.onislam.net.

Sheikh Yusuf Al-Qaradawi
First of all, it is to be noted that Islam, being Allah’s final message to humanity, is a comprehensive system dealing with all spheres of life...

Regarding the point of secularism and how Islam views it, Sheikh Yusuf Al-Qaradawi, says in his book How the Imported Solutions Disastrously Affected Our Muslim Nation,states the following:

We Muslims believe that Allah, Glory be to Him, is the sole Creator and Sustainer of the Worlds. He is Omnipotent and Omniscient; that His mercy and bounties encompass everyone and suffice for all. In that capacity, Almighty Allah revealed His divine guidance to humanity, made certain things permissible and others prohibited, commanded people observe His injunctions and to judge according to them. If they reject this guidance and follow their own whims and man-made laws, then they commit transgression against Allah’s laws.
http://www.onislam.net/english/ask-the-scholar/ideologies-movements-and-religions/175438.html

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Shahul Hameed
As Islam is a comprehensive system for human life in all its aspects and ramifications, politics is not excluded from the purview of Islam. Politics is considered as a sphere where Islamic justice and equality are made manifest.

Hence, Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) was not only the religious leader of Muslims, but also the political leader. So were the Rightly Guided Caliphs who succeeded him (read upon that and their life). Obeying God’s commandments in the Qur’an and following the example of the Prophet, they strove to exemplify Islam in all spheres of human life as best as they could so that they could establish a model society in Arabia which placed the good of all above the good of “the ruling elite.”

Islam is not merely concerned about the “salvation” of individuals, but also of the society. Indeed, there cannot be any individual salvation that ignores the travails of the society. And politics is the means of striving for the welfare of the society.
http://www.onislam.net/english/ask-about-islam/islam-and-the-world/politics-and-economics/166267.html

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Dalia Salaheldin
Islam is not a religion in the common, distorted meaning of the word, confining its scope only to the private life of man. By saying that it is a complete way of life, we mean that it caters for all the fields of human existence. In fact, Islam provides guidance for all walks of life – individual and social, material and moral, economic and political, legal and cultural, national and international.

The Qur’an enjoins Man to enter the fold of Islam without any reservation and to follow God’s guidance in all fields of life. As a matter of fact, it was an unfortunate day when the scope of religion was confined to the private life of man, while its social and cultural role was reduced to naught. No other factor has, perhaps, been more important in causing the decline of religion in the modern age than its retreat into the realm of the private life.
http://www.onislam.net/english/ask-about-islam/faith-and-worship/islamic-creed/168976.html

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Shahul Hameed
In popular usage, secularism often has the same connotations of immoralism that are imputed more strongly to atheism." (The Free On-Line Dictionary of Philosophy, Last accessed April 14, 2008)

As the original meaning of the word 'secular' is "of this world", it is often used as the opposite of 'religious':

For all practical purposes, secularism affords no place for God or His Guidance in the affairs of men. A person may be hailed as a secularist, if he confines his religion to his very personal life.

Because secularism demands that all affairs of this world outside the bounds of one's private life should be managed from the this-worldly point of view. In such affairs, no importance is to be given to the commandments of God or to the teachings of prophets.

Indeed secularism originated in Europe as a reaction to the Christian theology, which had forged shackles for the freely enquiring minds of thinking humans. As science and technology developed, the opposition to religion grew and took on several philosophical forms which were secularist in spirit.
However, this is not the case with Islam. Please view the following:
Muslim Heritage and its contribution to present day science, technology and civilisation.
http://theradiantlight.blogspot.com/2009/06/islams-forgottenerased-contributions-to.html

In the matter of secularism, Islam's stance is clear: Islam rejects the theory that religion is concerned only with the individual life of man, and that it has nothing to do with his social or political life.

Islam teaches that God is not only the Creator, Sustainer and Owner of everything in the universe; but He is also the Law-Giver and Sovereign Ruler.

Man's ignorant self-sufficiency and arrogance that prompt him to reject Divine authority in his collective life constitutes an open rebellion against God Who is his Creator, Master, and Sovereign.
The secularist claim would mean that each person is individually the servant of God, while collectively as these individuals form a society, they cease to be servants of God, as they go after man-made laws.

Sheikh Yusuf Al-Qaradawi writes:

We Muslims believe that Allah is the sole Creator and Sustainer of the Worlds. One Who .."takes account of every single thing"(The Holy Quran, 72:28); that He is omnipotent and omniscient; that His mercy and bounties encompass everyone and suffice for all.

In that capacity, Allah revealed His divine guidance to humanity, made certain things permissible and others prohibited, commanded people to observe His injunctions and to judge according to them.

There is no doubt that secularism contradicts Islam in every aspect. (Al-Qaradawi, How Islam Views Secularism)
http://www.onislam.net/english/ask-about-islam/islam-and-the-world/worldview/167497.html

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Reda Bedeir
It is well established that the man-made-laws have proven to be imperfect, simply because they are made by created people to others like them. This leads us to the fact that there must be laws and a complete way of life by the Creator. Then, since the Creator is Perfect, so His law is perfect too.

Allah sent heavenly books containing the description of the best style of life. He also chose some of His best creation to work as guides and teachers, explaining and implementing the minute details of that style of life. Those chosen men are messengers and prophets. The last of these prophets is Muhammad, peace be upon him, the heavenly book revealed to him is called the Qur'an and his followers are called Muslims.

In fact, Islam is the religion to which all messengers and prophets call their people to follow. Islam, in its broader sense, means submission and surrender to the will of Allah. The word Islam is derived of the verb salima in Arabic, which means ‘to have peace’ or ‘to live in peace and be saved from any mischief’. This, in fact, is the inevitable outcome of one's submission and surrender to the will of Allah.

The Qur’an and the practical example of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) contain a full coverage of all aspects of life, be they social, economic, political, cultural and so forth. For example, there are stipulations and clear directions regarding the dress code. As regards drinking, it is forbidden since its harms outweigh its benefits, as the Qur'an says. It was been proven that drinking causes many serious diseases, for example. On the other hand, mixing between sexes has led to an abyss of immorality and the more liberal societies suffer now from the consequences of such liberty. Islam has clear-cut instructions concerning the relation between men and women, which ensure happiness and safety of both.

As regards education, men and women are equal in Islam and they both have the right to be educated. Actually, the first verse, even the first word revealed to Prophet Muhammad was: "Read!" This is an indication for the importance of learning and education to both men and women. There is no difference in this regard between men and women. Many of the women during the lifetime of the prophet were even scholars… The best example is the prophet’s wife `Aisha.
Thus, Muslims are in no need to reconcile or seek a compromise, as regards the liberal social policies invented by humans. This is as long as they have revelation from the Creator, to guide those who choose to be obedient and submit their will to Allah.
http://www.onislam.net/english/ask-about-islam/faith-and-worship/islamic-creed/168887-divine-law-or-man-made-law.html

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AAI Editorial Staff
Islam means to "surrender to God". It also means the peace that one attains by completely surrendering to the All-Merciful God and not to anybody else. By being a Muslim, a person accepts the Noble Quran, which Muslims believe is the word of God, and Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) as his or her leader and exemplar. Thus, Islam requires one to declare:
“My prayer, my sacrifice, my life and my death are for God, the Lord of the Worlds.”(Al-An`am 6:162)

The foregoing implies that you cannot split up your life into two segments and say, "this is for God, and this is for me". If you do so, what you keep back for yourself will be for Satan, the principle of evil.

That is to say, all spheres of your life are to be devoted to God. No area of your life is exempt from Divine guidance. God has sent His guidance to mankind through His prophets and those who accept that guidance should understand that it covers all aspects of human life. So politics is not exempted from religion.
http://www.onislam.net/english/ask-about-islam/islam-and-the-world/politics-and-economics/450604-is-there-democracy-in-islam.html

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Many false claims and misconceptions have been attributed to Islam. And an incorrect representation of Islam has been portrayed by some, due to ill practices and actions. However, people are continually converting into Islam, all over the world; including the developed countries of Europe and America, and it is the fastest growing religion in the world. One must ask, Why are people converting, including scientists? Why are people abandoning alcohol? Women choosing to wear the hijab when they did not before? People leaving their old ways? And accepting Islam as a way of life? If the countries are secular, and religion has no place in today’s age, why are these people turning to Islam? One must reflect, and begin to understand.

We must strive to seek God’s Pleasure by not only believing in our hearts but by showing it with our actions. Nothing is more important than belief in the heart, yet this does not negate the importance of actions of the limbs. Works without faith is insincere; faith without works is hypocrisy (J. Hashmi, www.Islamreligion.com). Loving Allah also means following what he commanded, and abstaining and refraining from what he has made forbidden. Allah commanded us to be kind to parents. But when it comes to associating with Allah or disobeying him, we can not obey them in that case.
We can tell them that we love them, but we can not do anything that displeases Allah. He is our creater.

"We have enjoined on man kindness to parents: but if they (either of them) strive (to force) thee to join with Me (in worship) anything of which thou hast no knowledge, obey them not. Ye have (all) to return to me, and I will tell you (the truth) of all that ye did."(The Holy Quran, 29:8)

"But if they strive to make thee join in worship with Me things of which thou hast no knowledge, obey them not; yet bear them company in this life with justice (and consideration), and follow the way of those who turn to me (in love): in the end the return of you all is to Me, and I will tell you the truth (and meaning) of all that ye did." ( The Holy Quran, 31:14-15)

Muslims must not only be virtuous, but they must also enjoin virtue. They must not only refrain from evil and vice, but they must also forbid them. In other words, they must not only be morally healthy, but they must also contribute to the moral health of society as a whole (Khalid Latif, www.IslamReligion)
"Let there arise out of you a band of people inviting to all that is good, enjoining what is right, and forbidding what is wrong: They are the ones to attain felicity..” (The holy Quran, 3:104)

The Prophet, may the mercy and blessings of God be upon him, summarized the conduct of a Muslim when he said:
“My Sustainer has given me nine commands: to remain conscious of God, whether in private or in public; to speak justly, whether angry or pleased; to show moderation both when poor and when rich, to reunite friendship with those who have broken off with me; to give to him who refuses me; that my silence should be occupied with thought; that my looking should be an admonition; and that I should command what is right.”

Morality is one of the fundamental sources of a nation’s strength, just as immorality is one of the main causes of a nation’s decline (Khalid Latif, www.IslamReligion)

For the devout Muslim, it is sufficient reason to shun alcohol that Almighty Allah forbids it. This, alone, is enough for him to avoid alcohol and all intoxicants.
Regarding Alcohol please view the following articles:
http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/2229/
http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/454/viewall/

Regarding the Hijab please view the following articles:
Does Islam Oppress Women?
http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/3344/
Women in Islam: Oppression or Liberation?
http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/1469/

Women in Islam
http://www.islamreligion.com/category/101/

Wasalam aleacom warahmato Allah wabarakato