Islam Without Muslims; Muslims Without Islam

eemaan1

Junior Member
:salam2:

Islam Without Muslims; Muslims Without Islam
By: Lubna Hussain

"What happens if a woman goes to court here [Saudi Arabia]?" asked my father.


"What do you mean?" I counter-questioned.

"What I mean is that if a woman goes to court is she treated as an individual or are her rights based on her gender?"

"Depends on the case, I guess," I said.

"Come on," he interjected sarcastically. "Don't start telling me that women are treated in the manner that has been commanded by God. According to His Law they should be treated as equals. You know that that's not the case here."

"You just have to look around at the horrific miscarriages of justice to know that that's definitely not the case," he emphasized. "My point is that as much as we try to find fault with the West, one thing is for sure: I would feel far more secure with their system of justice if I were a woman than I would with the one we have here."

"Yes, in a way you're right," I began, "but Islam did give women rights over 1,400 years ago that the so-called civilized world has only started to recognize recently."

"You're intelligent enough to know that having rights and not being entitled to them is just as good as not having them at all. In the Qur'an, when a man decides to divorce his wife, God Orders him to leave his wife on an equitable basis and is required to support her. Am I right?" he asked, quoting the verse and chapter.

"Of course," I agreed.

"So if we are really honest with ourselves, does the law here enforce that or even recognize it in part?"

"Not that I know of," I admitted.

"Alright. This means that a woman can quite literally be booted out of her house on to the street with nowhere to go; and if she tries to extract any right or entitlement from her husband, will the court support her in this? Have you ever heard of a Saudi man who is scared of the consequences of not paying his wife alimony or stealing her dowry because he might be taken to court?"

"No," I conceded thinking of all the women I knew who had had this scenario forced upon them without any hope of recourse.

"Exactly," he said, having won the argument. "It's disgusting to think that the courts can overlook the word of God when it comes to preserving and upholding the whole concept of male domination. Judges relish sentences that chastise women for petty matters. You see the way the outwardly pious love to stop women in the street to point out strands of hair that may have escaped their veils or question the identity of the men around them; but when it comes to guaranteeing them their God-given rights they miraculously disappear!"

"Yes," I said, reflecting upon what he said. "You're right."

"A woman cannot even gain custody of her children in a court of law. What sort of a mandate gives the automatic guardianship of little girls over to the hands of a father and stepmother even when a mother is perfectly capable of looking after them? You of all people should know what that feels like. What's more, the status and importance of a mother in Islam is such that Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) himself said that paradise lies beneath the feet of one's mother and that a mother's value is three times greater than that of any other individual."

"Yes," I agreed.

It was this very conversation that played in my head when I read two articles printed side by side in the paper this week. One of them highlighted the fact that there are many single mothers and divorcees in society who are denied welfare due to trivial bureaucratic matters and thus forced to live below the poverty line. Imagine that. In Saudi Arabia, one of the wealthiest countries in the world, women are reduced to begging on the streets because the law does not recognize their needs. What kind of an interpretation of Islam is that when our faith is based on a spirit of egalitarianism? When verses upon verses of the Qur'an command us to look after the wretched of our society?

As if that was not bad enough, the adjacent piece highlighted the obstacles that Saudi women married to foreigners have to endure. Whereas a Saudi man may obtain citizenship for his wife and his children, a Saudi woman is not entitled to the same privilege if she marries a non-Saudi. Upon what spurious logic this decision is based upon I do not profess to know, but what I do know for sure is that it has nothing to do with religion.

The great Islamic scholar of the 19th century, Muhammad Abdo wrote that when he visited the West he found Islam but no Muslims and upon his return to the Arab world he countenanced many Muslims but no Islam.

I am beginning to see his point.
 

Aapa

Mirajmom
Salaam,

I think it is important not to generalize. I do not know the condition of women in Saudi Arabia.
I do know the condition of women in the US. On the surface it may look as if the women are given rights in court. However, there is little enforcement of the laws. In essence, a woman may be given entitlement for child support..does she receive her monthly payments...no. There are women who have waited for years..men have accumulated thousands of dollars in arrears and will not pay. This places women in desititue situations. They live in high crime neighborhoods where the children become prisoners.
It is impossible to compare apples to oranges. It is unfair. Let us not delude ourselves into thinking that the west offers women any benefits. To make a statement that the oppresors of Islam practice Islam is wrong.
Please forgive me but that is the truth. How can a nation that wages war on Muslims practice Islam.
 

eemaan1

Junior Member
:salam2:

i hear u ukhti, but like it or not these western countries have 'adala (justice) for their citizens that we r hard pressed to find in muslim countries,this's regardless of how they treat muslims in other countries.

lets face it many muslims would not b in the west today if there was justice in their own countries.

in any case i would definately feel more secure were i (Allah forbid)detained in the west than owww lets say dubai, saudi etc. and that is the sad fact!
 

Aapa

Mirajmom
Salaam,

I know that is not true. Please research. Please take the wool off over your eyes. Please watch a documentary called The Farm. Please look at the federal detention centers in US including the one in Cuba. Please look at the facts of who and why people are imprisoned in the States.
How can there be anything fair in a society that is based on taking for itself from others i.e. capitalism.
 

eemaan1

Junior Member
:salam2:

lol i can see u r realy passionate about this....

but what can i say, u must know and see things that i dont about the western societies, plus i cant realy speak for USA only a bit of the UK.

there's alot wrong with this society, there's no disputing that. but the fact is with all their wrongs there is a lot of right as well and much as we may like to say the same for the muslim world.. well...we cant!

ofcourse there r poor people whose rights hav been trodden on (i think more so in America than the UK)but atleast there is a semblance of human rights if one know where to look.
 

alkathiri

As-Shafaa'i(Brother)
islam raise the status of women to a high status , mashAllah

I was reading an article just now about women. i have to admit i do feel jealous a bit. I am brother by the way.

Unfortunately the article is in Malay Language........
 

al-fajr

...ism..schism
Staff member
:salam2:

How can there be anything fair in a society that is based on taking for itself from others i.e. capitalism.
i hear u ukhti, but like it or not these western countries have 'adala (justice) for their citizens

On that point exactly, capitalism and the effect of capitalism is the mounting to be one of the most significant injustices on the planet, these countries may secure what you call 'justice' for its citizens but it has unflinchingly flouted international law and ANY concept of justice in the process of achieving that. The west thrives on injustice to uphold its superiority over most of the world. How can we allow other people to suffer just so that we may feel 'safe?' and even that is in no way guaranteed.

lets face it many muslims would not b in the west today if there was justice in their own countries.
Justice is not confined to states or certain areas of the world, there are places where there is less of it than in others but in my opinon, wherever you find human beings you find injustice.

in any case i would definately feel more secure were i (Allah forbid)detained in the west than owww lets say dubai, saudi etc. and that is the sad fact!
As muslims in the UK/US or wherever, to feel 'safe' being detained is pretty strange thing to say :p.
there's alot wrong with this society, there's no disputing that. but the fact is with all their wrongs there is a lot of right as well and much as we may like to say the same for the muslim world.. well...we cant!
Ok sister, but what CAN we say about these muslim societies? there is definitely less fitnah in those societies than in the west...but like you said, theres no point in this attitude of "we have something you dont :SMILY129:" who does it help? theyre our muslim brothers/sisters after all, its got to change and we should be the ones looking to change it in my opinion.
ofcourse there r poor people whose rights hav been trodden on (i think more so in America than the UK)but atleast there is a semblance of human rights if one know where to look.
looking for human rights? yeh theyre EVERYwhere but in the courts and justice systems, theyre on placques in law courts theyre engraved in parliament buildings and just about every building of any significance... but im sorry to say theyre just tourist attractions! i suppose theyre written in documents like the Magna Carta? and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights? but what authority do these have when it comes to the crunch? zero.

anyway, i agree with brother ayman1 on that article, an interesting read, jzk for posting.

wasalam
 

TheKnowledgeSeeker

A Believer In Heart
assalamu alaykum

Lets hold on a time here it sound like you guys believe that we as muslim are prefect.The another night my mother, sister, and i were having this argument. How the muslim some countires don't follow Allah rule when it comes to justice for woman? I am sorry but lets be honest here in islam countries woman aren't give the justice Allah SWT gave them simple because of their gender. Forget about this centuries but it use to happen long time ago the times of the prophets. Boys and girls were not treat the same just like now how women and men are treat differently that the Prophet(pbuh) said "Whosoever had three daughters, and was patient with them, provided them with food and clothes, from his own money, they will shelter him from Hell-fire)" and "for two they will be with me in Paradise" And why Allah swt said To Allah swt belongs the kingdom of the heavens and the earth: he creates whatsoever he decides; he bestows upon whomsoever he decides females and males or couple he makes whomsoever he decieds sterile. Surely he is EVE-KNOWING. EVER-DETERMINER.(Ash-Shura:49-50)

Aruging over this is useles but in order to correct our islam nation we have to tech young generation about Allah SWT laws and rules among women and men. That they shouldn't treat each differently cos of gender. Start it with your children so they can pass it to their and etc...

:tti_sister: -May Allah swt gudie us to the right path and make us good muslim.Amen!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

Aapa

Mirajmom
Salaam,

I have lived in the west. I can not attest to the treatment of women in Islamic countries today. As I posted earlier it is unfair to make a comparison to the treatment of women in the US. Yes, we need to educate ourselves to what is Islamic. However, we can not allow ourselves to look at examples set in the US. Point in case: it is written that each empaciatpated slave be given 40 acres and a mule...by that LAW my sons should have 80 acres and two mules. This is a society built on dulpilicity. They do not follow their own laws.

We need to built Islamic communities to strenghten our faith and replinish our souls. We need to be near each other. We can not buy into the western lifestyle. As we incorporate Islam and live Islamically we are but strangers in the west.
 

Aapa

Mirajmom
Salaam,

The writer of the thread was making a comparison, I think. I was simply stating we can not compare apples and oranges. I think the writer felt there are more rights in the west. It helps when many respondents are able to assit in dis-spelling erroneous notions. We learn.
 

najbc

Junior Member
Assalamu alaykum,

Sis, I agree with your father, I as woman feel more secure with the west justices. I hear and understand what you father is saying, as much as we hate to admit, women in the west have more justice that other women. Islam as religion and its rules are perfect and if people Muslim would use the laws Allah had made for us, we would all go to heaven. it is not only women in the west that are been treat equally, the orphans also are been treat very kindly, and the Prophet may peace be upon him told us to help orphan and the reward we would get judgment day and sadly most of us Muslim do not help the orphans. For example, in America orphans with finance problems get welfare and food stamp and while in some Muslim country the orphans get nothing. Let’s admit the west are better than us, too badly they are not Muslim.
 

Aapa

Mirajmom
Salaam,

Please define and give me specifics of how women have more justice in the west. You can not make broad generalizations. If that is the case why are so many women converting to Islam. The western women did not have property rights until the 20th century. Why do you think Jane Austin was so popular. Please before we can talk about justice give me examples.
You state orphans receive food stamps...but are you aware of the horror stories of foster homes and group homes...the runaway statistics are horrific. Young girls turn to prositution rather than remain in group homes. I am sure you are aware of mall rats . These are children who live in the malls. Young girls are given to men as companions for money. Young girls are passed around by their fathers for money and drugs. I am not making this up.
 

najbc

Junior Member
Assalamu alaykum,

Well, my dear sister, I do see for your point and it is right. what I mean justice is the chance of having fair trial when dealing a case. For example, in some Muslim country if a woman and man go to court, the woman’s chance of get a fair trial is weak. Islam is a perfect religion and people are convert to it because they feel secure, happy and its best religion. I did not mean Islam is unjustified, I mean how some Muslim men and countries treat woman. The woman in the west fight for everything, nothing is been give to them. We as Muslim woman, Allah has give us many rights and sometimes our own people deny these rights to us. the problem is the people and the ones who make the laws. In every place there are the left outer.
 

Aapa

Mirajmom
Salaam,

Sister I have just seen too many injustices inflicted upon women in the west. Women are still considered girls and it goes on. I have advocated for many women as an expert witness and I was treated badly by the prosecutors.
It is a sad state that women are treated so poorly in so many places. We simply want peace and beauty everywhere so we can devote time to teach our children the imortant things in life.
I have seen many a Muslim brother act strange even at our masjid, so I have an inkling of how women would be treated. My feeling is very simple...I say to men you do not own me nor do you desire to represent me...so you can not speak to me...becuase if you speak to me in a very conventional and true sense you are there to protect me.
 

palestine

Servant of Allah
My dear brothers and sisters, I love Arabia so much, that with all the injustice being done i plan to live there inshaAllah. Foreigners have no rights there, at least not that i know of. When my aunts went there to make hajj, Arab men saw them and one of them took of his pants and said to them " Hey ****, let me *** you, subxanaAllah. We (africans) are recognized as donkeys by the majority of the Arab world, why? simply because we are different then they are, they don't count the fact that we believe in Allah and that we are God fearing people. However, some arabs are kind enough to welcome us and respect us for who we are. here is a little incident that happened to me: "One day i came from school, i was tired and hungry. I saw this Muslim arab women who was carrying two children. one of the babies was in a basket, the other baby could walk and ran away from the mother. I saw that she was in need of help, so i took the baby that could walk and i carried for her all the way to the 3rd floor; despite the fact that i was carrying a heavy bag pack and i was sick as well. She seemed like a nice lady and invited me to her home, she said " come visit sometimes please", i replied saying "alright, thanks". Next day i went to her house, i played with her children and we chatted. Never again did i go to that house. You might wonder why. After that one visit i knocked on her door 7 times for sure, but they were different times. During those7 times i was wondering, why isn't she opening the door? What i mean is: i heard her voice and her children playing right by the door, i felt that someone came to the door, i saw the shadow and she was talking but still she didn't open the door. I kept going back to her, saying to myself, she is your neighbor, so visit her for the sake of Allah, to this day.i haven't given up though i should. Only Allah knows why she didn't open, but my guess is that it is because of my color. She didn't do this only to me but also my friends who also are africans. It breaks my heart deeply, i care so much about the Arab Muslims......yet we are being treated like this:girl3: :girl3: :girl3: . I'm sorry to be saying this because i know there are many Arabs who do like all muslims regardless of color.:salam2:
 

Aapa

Mirajmom
Salaam,

BismilAllah, Ar-Rahman, Ar-Raheem,

Do not let the callous act of one individual stop your loving heart from doing the right thing. People can be stupid. We perform acts of charity to please Allah. Honey, you can come to my house anytime. You are my sister.
 

eemaan1

Junior Member
:salam2:

Bismillah

ok, let me break this down for you guys...

first off this was not my father.. rather it was an article from somwea (cant recall the website)

secondly.. no one least of all me is implying that AL Islam is unjust or there's no justice in it,to the contrary its my firm belief that justice can only be attained thru AL Islam! but the same cannot be said for muslims or "muslim" countries today! however much som might protest!

wassalam
 

palestine

Servant of Allah
:salam2: Thank you for your generous welcome towards me. Happy that i have a sister like you :salam2: :tti_sister: :hijabi: :hijabi: :hijabi: :hijabi: :hijabi:
 
Top