Muslims Living in a Kaffir Country

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Salem9022

Junior Member
Turn to islam have always been a nice forum to discuss the real issues, which the muslims are facing and it is still serving that purpose. However, I don't think, the brothers and sisters are doing any service to this forum, when they bring up some non-issues and quote fatwas, which belong to a narrow understanding of Islam.
The discussion in the time of our Salf about living among mushrikeen has a completly different context. The verses in Quran dealing with muslims, who chose to remain in Makkah do not apply to muslims living in non-muslim countries today. We should keep in mind the eternal law of itmaam al-hujja, according to which, when a rasool (and not a nabi) would leave his people after the permission of Allah, azaab of Allah could come to them any time. Hijrah to Medina was compulsory and and remaining in Makkah was not sanctioned by the Prophet.

The word mushrikeen used in Quran is specific to the mushrikeen of Arabia, who were punished by the hands of the muslims as specified in Surah Taubah. That punishment, however, has nothing to do with law, which applies to us.

Fuqaha have introduced terms like dar ul islam and dar ul harb and made laws about life of muslims in dar ul harb. What we should never forget is, that our deen consists of Quran and Sunnah. Quran and Sunnah are divine and above human criticism. Fiqh, however, is a human work and can always be criticized on the basis of Quran and Sunnah. When somebody wants to impose a certain understanding of Fiqh on everybody as "the islam", those verses come to my mind, which accuse jews of making their scholars their deity. Recall, when Abdullah bin Salaam RA asked Prophet SAW, what was meant by those verses, as he knew from the time, when he was a jew that it was apparently not the case. The prophet asked him, was it not the case, that you considered everything to be halal, which your scholars told you to be halal and was it not the case, that you considered everything haram, which your scholars told you to be haram.
It certainly is the case, that on the day of judgement, it will not be accepted as a reason not to act upon Islam, because the laws of the land were not permitting it. There are verses in Quran (and I have no time to find the exact reference), which make it compulsory to move to another place in that case. Looking at muslim youth living in Ghettos in France, for example, I would really think about those verses. However, having said that, I don't believe those laws of Fiqh have any relevance to the muslims living in west in general. The national states of today cannot be divided in dar ul islam and dar ul harb, even though some non-muslim countries are at war with some other. The reason, why I think this division does not apply today is the modern concept of Nationality, which was never there.
Now imagine, if I dislike west and like Saudi Arabia and am willing to move there. Is that all, what I need? my willingness? I am afraid not. If I really want to enjoy equal rights like other Saudi citizens, I might have to wait my whole life, unless one of his highnesses or his excellencies gets kind on me. Besides, I would feel suffocated living in a land, where state-financed scholars have declared political demonstrations a "Bid'a"
I summarize: Brother Salem, you are quoting fatwas, which are certainly meant for some people, who are not strong enough to transfer Islam to their next generations but have no general validity. Most of the quotations in the original fatwa have either no validity on today's political landscape or they are secondary resources like Fiqh (which represent opinions of a scholars but they are not equal to deen ) or akhbar al ahaad, which do not define our deen.

1. There are so many Mistakes in what you Just said. First you Said About Jews taking their Rabbis as Gods. The reason being because they followed them blindly without any evidences from their Book. And You and I know it is forbidden to take a something from any source that doesn't provide textual proof and evidences.

2. You also said "I don't believe those laws of Fiqh have any relevance to the muslims living in west in general." loooooooooooooool masha'Allah so are you a shiekh? you are taking a very big chunk of Islam out from this statement of yours.

3. You also Said about Saudi Arabia "I would feel suffocated living in a land, where state-financed scholars have declared political demonstrations a "Bid'a" " looooooooooooool I don't need to say anything more after this.

4. You also Said "Fuqaha have introduced terms like dar ul islam and dar ul harb and made laws about life of muslims in dar ul harb. What we should never forget is, that our deen consists of Quran and Sunnah" These terms are not Introduced they are part of Quran and Sunnah. And there are many examples of them like during the Prophets time, Abysina, Persia, Byzantime were Dar-ul-Kufr.

5. You also Said "Looking at muslim youth living in Ghettos in France" and how did those Muslim Youths get to france in the first place if they didn't wanted to live in Ghettos?

6. Also The Moderator should close the thread if they can because people here are still giving their opinions and statments like this Ignorant person.


As-Salaam 3laikum Wa Ra7matullahi Wa Barakatu
 
lets jz end THIS THREAD by saying....DO WATEVER U LIKE..NO1S GOING TO B RESPONSIBLE FOR UR ACTIONS OR INTENTIONS ON THE J-DAY.....

i can make ikhtillaf on anything i want but the questions is will u give in and accept it although i have all the proof?....there are always 2 sides to a story and there is only one of them which is rite....

i dont trust islam-qa that much cause i have heard a few things bout them that raises suspicions


:hearts::hearts::hearts:
 

rtbour

american muslima
:salam2: You know this topic is really dear to my heart. The so called Kaffir countries are the countries who have welcomed the moslem ummah when they needed help the most. The moslem countries alienated their moslem brothers and sisters in time of help and instead welcome the so called kuffars in their countries. I am sorry to tell you this but if I am blue eyed blond hair I have a better chance to get a job in the middle east than if a person true to their religion, who would want to do Hijra to a moslem country, to run with their children for their Deen. getting a decent employment would be impossible These are the same Ummah who where blessed to be born in the same hemisphere and language of Prophet Mohamed S.A.W. & his companion, ignore their brethrens. Doesnt Islam proclaim that all moslem are brotherens Shame on you!! As a true moslem we cry for you because in the name of Allah you will be question turning away your brothers & sisters. May Allah forgive you and for us may Allah s.w.t guide us and make our deen stead fast and make us true moslems where ever we are- Ameen

that reminded me of when i was searching for jobs in Emirate a few weeks ago for my husband. there were actually jobs that had "required nationalities." for one job, you could only apply if you were a Dubai citizen, American, Lebaneze. That is so stupid. What about Saudi, Jordan, Kuwait, Iraq, etc, etc, etc. It didn't matter what education you had, so long as you were from one of 3 listed countries. that is serious discrimination.
 

Salem9022

Junior Member
well Like I've been saying you either take it or Leave, and do what ever you like even though the evidence is shown to you. And yeah We can do Ikhtilaaf even the verses of the Qur'an as they like, it doesn't mean what they think is true. They Make the whole religion ikhtilaaf and based upon each Individuals assumptions astughfur'Allah
 

Salem9022

Junior Member
that reminded me of when i was searching for jobs in Emirate a few weeks ago for my husband. there were actually jobs that had "required nationalities." for one job, you could only apply if you were a Dubai citizen, American, Lebaneze. That is so stupid. What about Saudi, Jordan, Kuwait, Iraq, etc, etc, etc. It didn't matter what education you had, so long as you were from one of 3 listed countries. that is serious discrimination.

Yes there is Discrimination in Muslim countries but that is another Issue. I agree with what you said, But what we are talking about is that most of the Muslims in America and the west actually have a muslim country which they came from and they left those nations of theirs to travel to Kuffar Lands which promises them better Jobs and Money$$$. and Majority of them come to Kuffar countries for Money$$$$ not for doing Dawah or spreading Islam. I can tell you my parents didn't come here to spread Islam they came here to Make Money and Become Rich.
 

IslamIsLight

Islam is my life
Staff member
Yes there is Discrimination in Muslim countries but that is another Issue. I agree with what you said, But what we are talking about is that most of the Muslims in America and the west actually have a muslim country which they came from and they left those nations of theirs to travel to Kuffar Lands which promises them better Jobs and Money$$$. and Majority of them come to Kuffar countries for Money$$$$ not for doing Dawah or spreading Islam. I can tell you my parents didn't come here to spread Islam they came here to Make Money and Become Rich.

salam aleikum
Brother who said that we are rich here and that we muslims in the west have money and come here for $$$$$$.Dont judge everyone like this .Its the rest of the world thinks if we live in US means we have money ...Its wrong to judge everyone like this ...There are muslims here who are strugling and working hard to feed their families .US is not Paradise ,where everything is easy,like many people think.I just want people stop thinking this way and judging those muslims who live here
waaleiku salam
 

AleahKoto

Allah will decide
That doesn't stand to reason....

First off, there would be no Muslims in Malaysia, if no one moved or went there. There would be no Muslims anywhere out of Saudi Arabia if no one went somewhere else or didn't move somewhere else. AND most importantly, the Prophet (PBUH) moved to Yathrib-Medina and that was a kaffir area, and we are to follow his lead. Right? Islam moved itself all the way through all kaffir lands, and in doing so, many turned to Islam.

Dawah is living Islam and showing Islam. IF every Muslim, took it upon themselves to bring one person back to Islam, just one person a piece, Islam would conquer the world. EASILY.

Why would you think Dawah is only for scholars? Dawah is for ALL Muslims, and the deeper learning, the Muslims can get from scholars and new Muslims can go for knowledge. To put the weight of bringing Islam to the world by only scholars, is purely unbelievable!

I am in the US. I live in a area where the closest known Muslim community is over 70 miles away. I am not hampered by the indecency in the US, I am energized by it, it makes me want to be the best neighbor, the most conscientious employee, the best tenant etc. You know why? Because it speaks of Islam and opens the door for dialogue. I have had so many people, who were ignorant if Islam, ask me questions. Once they were in fear, now they are interested in Islam....that is Dawah. You don't have to get on a soap box and preach to bring more knowledge to people. If you go to a Kaffir country, and lose your way, you didn't have a firm enough hold on your deen. So strenghten your Deen, keep your faith, stand firm and you will be fine.

If you stay in a small nucleus, and don't expand you won't show the world what Islam is. You don't have to work a haram job, you don't have to mingle with the Kaffir as in "friends," but you will have to do business with them, and that is the single most important thing-show them what Islam is by the way you conduct yourself. Follow the Prophets (pbuh) lead, and you can't go wrong.
 

abdellah007

Junior Member
Assalam alaykum,

As I said before, this issue has been discussed before and there are always different opinions.

Saleem, now you are living in the US and elhamdolilah you get knowledge about Quran and Sunnah, just make sure there are people in muslim countries who do not memorize short surahs and they are hearing athan all time but never go to pray even few mosques surrounded him. I can still say you better than tons of people who belong to muslim countries. well you said your parents moved there for money, so muslims centuries ago did the same when they went to east asia for trade but they keep spreading Islam, this is what you can do there.

My brother is living in a kuffar country, I see him now better than when he was here, he follows quran and sunnah and also talib ilm and he got few certificates from online classes which braodcasting from saudi arabia.
so is he not better than millions of muslims in muslim countries.

sometimes it works when you live among kuffar, because you just feel you are different than them so you keep yourself sticked with your Deen.

Allah knows best
wassalam
 

Oem Soufiane

Junior Member
1. There are so many Mistakes in what you Just said. First you Said About Jews taking their Rabbis as Gods. The reason being because they followed them blindly without any evidences from their Book. And You and I know it is forbidden to take a something from any source that doesn't provide textual proof and evidences.

2. You also said "I don't believe those laws of Fiqh have any relevance to the muslims living in west in general." loooooooooooooool masha'Allah so are you a shiekh? you are taking a very big chunk of Islam out from this statement of yours.

3. You also Said about Saudi Arabia "I would feel suffocated living in a land, where state-financed scholars have declared political demonstrations a "Bid'a" " looooooooooooool I don't need to say anything more after this.

4. You also Said "Fuqaha have introduced terms like dar ul islam and dar ul harb and made laws about life of muslims in dar ul harb. What we should never forget is, that our deen consists of Quran and Sunnah" These terms are not Introduced they are part of Quran and Sunnah. And there are many examples of them like during the Prophets time, Abysina, Persia, Byzantime were Dar-ul-Kufr.

5. You also Said "Looking at muslim youth living in Ghettos in France" and how did those Muslim Youths get to france in the first place if they didn't wanted to live in Ghettos?

6. Also The Moderator should close the thread if they can because people here are still giving their opinions and statments like this Ignorant person.


As-Salaam 3laikum Wa Ra7matullahi Wa Barakatu

:ma:

@Saif: What are you trying to say, that you will explain the quran and the sunnah in your own way? Astaghfirullah, I thought I had heard everything by now. Where do you think the scholars like Uthaimin, ibn baaz etc get their fatawah from, those scholars are learning quran and sunnah all their lives and you know better? Subhanallah. The government of Saudi Arabia is indeed a hypoctite one wa allahu alim, but the scholars are from a totally different side. It's not the government bringing out the fatawah we know. It is the islamic scholars. We must follow them, because they know more about hadith, sunnah and quran with tafsir then us, they spend their whole lives learning :



Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Amr bin Al' As:

I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "Allah does not take away the knowledge, by taking it away from (the hearts of) the people, but takes it away by the death of the religious learned men till when none of the (religious learned men) remains, people will take as their leaders ignorant persons who when consulted will give their verdict without knowledge. So they will go astray and will lead the people astray."
 

web_knight

spread the peace
i am not arab i am english and live in england have done all my life i am new to islam and ever since i have started reading the quran have loved it i am from a kaffir country as you call it so what does that make me am i not meant to be muslim if i am from there what does that say to other muslims as well from other countries?

Salamu aleikom All,
1st- I want to thank brother Salem for his detailed and objective explanation.
2nd- syster Layla ,look..Muslim is Muslim wherever or whenever he is.
in reading the following you will be clear about this critical issue.

when tackling a religious affair such as this issue which is settled by knowing what is right or what is wrong the mere personal openions should not interfere.
we should alwas get back to the approved religion choice which is selected for us by Allah our Lord who will never be unjust to us.
in order to do this and cut the chase we would rely on a Fatwa
So what is Fatwa?
for those who don't know . Fatwa is a statement shows the proper course of action and the right direction of behaviour regarding a certain matter.
It is issued by a specialized scholar or commitee of scholars ( for the demanding questions)
It is tactfully based on basic principals of how to extract the religious judgement from the religion sources the Quran & Sunna. etc.
the branch of islamic science that handles this discipline is called "Fiqh"translaterated as "Understanding"
in doing that we should be broad-minded seeking the proper and correct understanding of the matter in question and all possible related situations and consequences.
a through understanding of Islam & Islamic Law would be useful.

Islam:the word islam is deriven from the Salam
which means Peace,peace can only take place when being safe & secure. safety and security require absence of danger and harm.
and here is the catch phrase. so this notion is one of the basics of islamic law and based on it, established the following rule :
[c] Removal of harm is prior than gaining the benefit[/c]
this is a great basic stable rule of Fiqh applicable on any proppective case.
 
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