:salam2:I was Born in Pakistan, Came to America When I was a child with my Parents. And have no Intention of staying here any longer.
Muslims Living in a Kaffir Country
- Thread starter Salem9022
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:salam2:I was Born in Pakistan, Came to America When I was a child with my Parents. And have no Intention of staying here any longer.
muthmainnah
Junior Member
Assalamu'alaikum
I think we should close this thread. There's no use making debate in something which has become ikhtilaf among the scholars.
Q: Respected scholars, as-salamu `alaykum.
In some fiqh books, it is written that Muslims should not live in a non-Muslim country, "because people there are infidels."
How do you see these sayings? You know Muslims in Western countries are free to practice their religion more than in their own Muslim countries.
Jazakum Allahu khayran.
A: Wa `alaykum as-salam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh.
In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.
Dear brother in Islam, thank you for your question and your apparent fear of contradicting Allah's laws. May Allah enlighten our hearts with the light of Islam!
As far as Islamic Shari`ah is concerned, there is not a one-and-only ruling on living in non-Muslim countries for all Muslims. If a Muslim can practice his or her faith freely and there is no fear for his or her family to be tempted, then there is nothing wrong in doing so.
In his response to your question, the prominent Muslim scholar Sheikh Muhammad Iqbal Nadvi, director and imam of Al-Falah Islamic Center, Oakville, Ontario, Canada, states,
Scholars look into this issue from various perspectives and the bottom line is the ability to practice Islam and make da`wah (Arabic for: inviting others to Islam). If Muslims are free to practice their own faith and even invite others to join the same faith, then their presence in such countries is needed and sometimes mandatory.
The second perspective is when Muslims are free to practice Islam but they face some difficulties to make da`wah, then it is permissible to live in those countries.
However, if one fears that his or her children will suffer religious-wise, then their presence in such countries is useless and they need to search for a better environment.
So, there is no one ruling for all Muslims living in non-Muslim countries.
The ideal situation is when a Muslim practices his or her own faith and at the same time lives as a good citizen in his or her own country, sharing the beautiful teachings of Islam with other people. Almighty Allah says: [O My servants who believe! Truly, spacious is My Earth: therefore, serve you Me, (and Me alone)] (Al-`Ankabut 29:56).
So, all the earth belongs to Allah, so we should worship Allah wherever we are.
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/...h-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1203759310505
Allah, subhanahu wata'ala says:On no soul doth Allah Place a burden greater than it can bear. It gets every good that it earns, and it suffers every ill that it earns.(Pray) "Our Lord! Condemn us not if we forget or fall into error; our Lord! Lay not on us a burden Like that which Thou didst lay on those before us; Our Lord! Lay not on us a burden greater than we have strength to bear. Blot out our sins, and grant us forgiveness. Have mercy on us. Thou art our Protector; Help us against those who stand against faith."
I think we should close this thread. There's no use making debate in something which has become ikhtilaf among the scholars.
Q: Respected scholars, as-salamu `alaykum.
In some fiqh books, it is written that Muslims should not live in a non-Muslim country, "because people there are infidels."
How do you see these sayings? You know Muslims in Western countries are free to practice their religion more than in their own Muslim countries.
Jazakum Allahu khayran.
A: Wa `alaykum as-salam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh.
In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.
Dear brother in Islam, thank you for your question and your apparent fear of contradicting Allah's laws. May Allah enlighten our hearts with the light of Islam!
As far as Islamic Shari`ah is concerned, there is not a one-and-only ruling on living in non-Muslim countries for all Muslims. If a Muslim can practice his or her faith freely and there is no fear for his or her family to be tempted, then there is nothing wrong in doing so.
In his response to your question, the prominent Muslim scholar Sheikh Muhammad Iqbal Nadvi, director and imam of Al-Falah Islamic Center, Oakville, Ontario, Canada, states,
Scholars look into this issue from various perspectives and the bottom line is the ability to practice Islam and make da`wah (Arabic for: inviting others to Islam). If Muslims are free to practice their own faith and even invite others to join the same faith, then their presence in such countries is needed and sometimes mandatory.
The second perspective is when Muslims are free to practice Islam but they face some difficulties to make da`wah, then it is permissible to live in those countries.
However, if one fears that his or her children will suffer religious-wise, then their presence in such countries is useless and they need to search for a better environment.
So, there is no one ruling for all Muslims living in non-Muslim countries.
The ideal situation is when a Muslim practices his or her own faith and at the same time lives as a good citizen in his or her own country, sharing the beautiful teachings of Islam with other people. Almighty Allah says: [O My servants who believe! Truly, spacious is My Earth: therefore, serve you Me, (and Me alone)] (Al-`Ankabut 29:56).
So, all the earth belongs to Allah, so we should worship Allah wherever we are.
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/...h-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1203759310505
Allah, subhanahu wata'ala says:On no soul doth Allah Place a burden greater than it can bear. It gets every good that it earns, and it suffers every ill that it earns.(Pray) "Our Lord! Condemn us not if we forget or fall into error; our Lord! Lay not on us a burden Like that which Thou didst lay on those before us; Our Lord! Lay not on us a burden greater than we have strength to bear. Blot out our sins, and grant us forgiveness. Have mercy on us. Thou art our Protector; Help us against those who stand against faith."
Mumin01
Junior Member
i agree with brother salem to a certain extent and im glad hes the kind of muslim that actually puts a good arguement forward. Like i said im not here to argue about religion, arguing about religion was forbidden by the Prophet PBUH and its a mutawatir hadith even
but id like to clarify a few things
what i really didnt like about the original post was that this "fatwa" was issued as if it was the only verdict in this issue.
You said that scholars should do solely do dawah because they have knowledge of the Quran ect. You dont have to know the entire Quran to tell someone about islam. I myself dont know the entire Quran, but i do know the aqeedah and im sure i can explain to a non muslim what islam teaches and what it represents. You also said that living in a non muslim country leads muslims to follow non muslim habits. The exact same thing happens in "muslim" countries as well, they were the same cloths, imitate the same digusting habits and material desires.
its almost as if you trying to imply that if a muslim in a non muslim country follows their customs its bad, but if a muslim in a muslim country does the exact same thing its not as bad?
You mentioned the story about the 2 islamic centers and i agree with you that that was a stupid thing for them to do but how does that prove to me that every muslim here loves there laws? Thats just an incident you recalled in your past experience, i could say that every black person is evil because one time a black person stole from me according to this logic.
And also you mentioned that there are islamic laws in those countries even though they are secular. This is true, but this is only limited to simply lega parameters such as marriage, divorce. inheritence ect. All of these things are also available for us to practice in these western countries as well. We are here to practice our religion freely just as we are free to practice or religion there
and also yes its unfortunate that muslims sell cigarettes and all that but that doesnt mean i have to move to a whole different country because of that. Every muslims is responsible for his or herself and just because some muslims get involved in sin doesnt mean that i am going to fall into the same trap. And just because its practice "less" in muslim countries doesnt mean anything. Could i say im not sinning because i am drinking "less" alcohol than my other friend? of course not
its also worth noting that the Hanafi, Shaffi, and Hanbali all agree that a Muslim can live anywhere on this face of this earth as long as they can practice their deen ( meaning they can pray,fast,make hajj, and give zakat ect.)
So this isnt a clear cut issue, just because a shiekh or even 20 shiekh gives a fatwa on this issue doesnt mean we have to migrate, on the contrast there are references in the Sunnah which would argue the opposite
I didnt come in here to make anyone look like a fool, u just didnt want anyone to think that this is just a ruling that is absolute and unquestionable
please see this lecture for more info
http://www.halaltube.com/yasir-qadhi/muslims-in-the-west-where-are-we-going
Allah knows best
but id like to clarify a few things
what i really didnt like about the original post was that this "fatwa" was issued as if it was the only verdict in this issue.
You said that scholars should do solely do dawah because they have knowledge of the Quran ect. You dont have to know the entire Quran to tell someone about islam. I myself dont know the entire Quran, but i do know the aqeedah and im sure i can explain to a non muslim what islam teaches and what it represents. You also said that living in a non muslim country leads muslims to follow non muslim habits. The exact same thing happens in "muslim" countries as well, they were the same cloths, imitate the same digusting habits and material desires.
its almost as if you trying to imply that if a muslim in a non muslim country follows their customs its bad, but if a muslim in a muslim country does the exact same thing its not as bad?
You mentioned the story about the 2 islamic centers and i agree with you that that was a stupid thing for them to do but how does that prove to me that every muslim here loves there laws? Thats just an incident you recalled in your past experience, i could say that every black person is evil because one time a black person stole from me according to this logic.
And also you mentioned that there are islamic laws in those countries even though they are secular. This is true, but this is only limited to simply lega parameters such as marriage, divorce. inheritence ect. All of these things are also available for us to practice in these western countries as well. We are here to practice our religion freely just as we are free to practice or religion there
and also yes its unfortunate that muslims sell cigarettes and all that but that doesnt mean i have to move to a whole different country because of that. Every muslims is responsible for his or herself and just because some muslims get involved in sin doesnt mean that i am going to fall into the same trap. And just because its practice "less" in muslim countries doesnt mean anything. Could i say im not sinning because i am drinking "less" alcohol than my other friend? of course not
its also worth noting that the Hanafi, Shaffi, and Hanbali all agree that a Muslim can live anywhere on this face of this earth as long as they can practice their deen ( meaning they can pray,fast,make hajj, and give zakat ect.)
So this isnt a clear cut issue, just because a shiekh or even 20 shiekh gives a fatwa on this issue doesnt mean we have to migrate, on the contrast there are references in the Sunnah which would argue the opposite
I didnt come in here to make anyone look like a fool, u just didnt want anyone to think that this is just a ruling that is absolute and unquestionable
please see this lecture for more info
http://www.halaltube.com/yasir-qadhi/muslims-in-the-west-where-are-we-going
Allah knows best
There is no ikhtilaf on this issue, all the scholars agree on this and I already posted the fatawah in my first post, so like I said earlier either you take it or leave case closed. no need to post anything else.
Islamonline.com is not a source that we muslims can take from because many of them from islamonline are Ikwanies and their leader Yusuf al-qaradawi has many grave mistakes in his belief which shiekh Utaymeen spoke about it. I'm not going to take the topic in tangents and speak about this Individual, but Just read the fatawah from Islam-qa which I posted like I said and you will get your answer. No need to post anything else. barak Allahu feek
And Mumin01 Yasir Qadhi is not a Scholar of Islam matter of fact there are no Muslim scholars living in the west, so what he has to say doesn't have any weight to what I posted. And so please refrain from dragging the issue any further when I already Posted the answer for this issue in my first post. Barak Allahu Feek
If you disagree with anything know that none of here are scholars and we shouldn't give our own opinion Unless we have Evidence from Authentic Sources and Scholars who are actually from Ahlul Sunnah. Jazak'Allahu Khairan
No need to drag this Issue any further the evidence is already posted, So take it or Leave.
Jazak'Allahu Khairan
As-Salaam 3laikum Wa Ra7matullahi Wabarakatu
Islamonline.com is not a source that we muslims can take from because many of them from islamonline are Ikwanies and their leader Yusuf al-qaradawi has many grave mistakes in his belief which shiekh Utaymeen spoke about it. I'm not going to take the topic in tangents and speak about this Individual, but Just read the fatawah from Islam-qa which I posted like I said and you will get your answer. No need to post anything else. barak Allahu feek
And Mumin01 Yasir Qadhi is not a Scholar of Islam matter of fact there are no Muslim scholars living in the west, so what he has to say doesn't have any weight to what I posted. And so please refrain from dragging the issue any further when I already Posted the answer for this issue in my first post. Barak Allahu Feek
If you disagree with anything know that none of here are scholars and we shouldn't give our own opinion Unless we have Evidence from Authentic Sources and Scholars who are actually from Ahlul Sunnah. Jazak'Allahu Khairan
No need to drag this Issue any further the evidence is already posted, So take it or Leave.
Jazak'Allahu Khairan
As-Salaam 3laikum Wa Ra7matullahi Wabarakatu
Proud_2b_Muslim
Ahmad M. Al-Marshoud
:salam2:
jazak Allah khayran insha`Allah
jazak Allah khayran insha`Allah
Mumin01
Junior Member
i am not going to drag this any further this is my last post
how can "all the scholars agree" on this issue if the Hanafi, Shaffi, and Hanbali madhabds agree that its ok to live anywere lol
and i never said that Yaser Qadhi was a scholar either it was just relevant to my post
how can "all the scholars agree" on this issue if the Hanafi, Shaffi, and Hanbali madhabds agree that its ok to live anywere lol
and i never said that Yaser Qadhi was a scholar either it was just relevant to my post
:salam2: You know this topic is really dear to my heart. The so called Kaffir countries are the countries who have welcomed the moslem ummah when they needed help the most. The moslem countries alienated their moslem brothers and sisters in time of help and instead welcome the so called kuffars in their countries. I am sorry to tell you this but if I am blue eyed blond hair I have a better chance to get a job in the middle east than if a person true to their religion, who would want to do Hijra to a moslem country, to run with their children for their Deen. getting a decent employment would be impossible These are the same Ummah who where blessed to be born in the same hemisphere and language of Prophet Mohamed S.A.W. & his companion, ignore their brethrens. Doesnt Islam proclaim that all moslem are brotherens Shame on you!! As a true moslem we cry for you because in the name of Allah you will be question turning away your brothers & sisters. May Allah forgive you and for us may Allah s.w.t guide us and make our deen stead fast and make us true moslems where ever we are- Ameen
Aisha. joyo
~ALLAH 0 AKBAR~
maashaallah
mashaallah_1
that geart thing to talk about
mashaallah_1
that geart thing to talk aboutSalem you said you are from Pakistan so i am too,
But one question do you know how Islam came into subcontinent.
1.Scholars
2.Non-Scholars
Looking for your answer.
Hazoor(SAW) was living with jews. And by the way i am studing this book of ibn tamiyah "Muslims under non-Muslims rulers" english translation. I cant say anything right now.
But one question do you know how Islam came into subcontinent.
1.Scholars
2.Non-Scholars
Looking for your answer.
Hazoor(SAW) was living with jews. And by the way i am studing this book of ibn tamiyah "Muslims under non-Muslims rulers" english translation. I cant say anything right now.
Happy 2BA Muslim
Islamophilic
:salam2:
I don`t know why some people insist on making this issue a "black and white" issue. Salem, I would love to reply to some of your ignorant and false comments and ideas, but let`s save it for later. :astag:
A Muslim who is able to freely practice his religion does not have to emigrate from a non-Muslim country to go live in a Muslim one. He may stay where he is and get involved in calling people to Allah and introducing the true Islamic creed to others. He must be a good example to others by his good manners and behavior and cooperate with other Muslims where he lives.
However, if he has a chance to reside in an Islamic country that could offer him more religious freedom and a more wholesome environment without having an adverse affect on his livelihood, then he may do so, but he is under no obligation.
The Prophet (peace be upon him) said:
“O Fudayk, establish prayer, avoid bad deeds, and live with your people wherever you like.” [Sahîh Ibn Hibbân (4861)]
The narrators of this hadîth are all reliable.
The meaning of the hadith:
Fudayk belonged to a tribe who were all non-Muslims. Fudayk, who had accepted Islam, used to live with them. Fudayk’s people had requested him to live with them and pledged to him that they would not impose upon him in his faith in any way.
Fudayk then went to the Prophet (peace be upon him) and asked about whether he should emigrate, saying: “O Messenger of Allah! There are people claiming that whoever does not emigrate will come to ruin.”
To this the Prophet (peace be upon him) replied: “O Fudayk, establish prayer, avoid bad deeds, and live with your people wherever you like.”
Ibn Hibbân explains the meaning of the hadîth as follows [Sahîh Ibn Hibbân (11/203)]:
The command to “establish prayer” is a command indicating obligation upon those being addressed under relevant circumstances.
The command to “avoid bad deeds” is a command indicating obligation upon all Muslims under all circumstances. They must not perpetrate evil and sinful deeds upon themselves or upon others. This refers to all deeds that Allah is displeased with
The imperative tense of the verb “live” in the phrase “and live with your people wherever you like” indicates permissibility. What it means is that if a person who shuns bad deeds as we have mentioned, then there is no harm in his living wherever he chooses to live, even if the location is not ideal.
Indeed, a Muslim who lives in a non-Muslim country should take the injunctions of this hadîth to heart and live his life accordingly. He should establish prayer. He should avoid fornication, drinking, and all other licentious, sinful deeds.
Its legal implications:
It is generally understood that a Muslim living in an Islamic country should not leave it for a non-Muslim country without a good reason. This hadîth is evidence that if a Muslim is already living in a non-Muslim country and is able to worship Allah and carry out the rites of his religion, then he is under no obligation to leave his country.
Scholars disagree regarding the emigration of a Muslim who lives in a non-Muslim country.
The first opinion is that a Muslim can live in a non-Muslim country as long as he is free to practice his religion. This is the opinion of the vast majority of jurists. It is the ruling followed by the Hanafî, Shâfi`î, and Hanbalî schools of law.
Those who hold this opinion cite the hadîth under discussion as evidence.
Another hadîth which is used as evidence for the permissibility of living in non-Muslim countries is where the Prophet (peace be upon him) said:
“The countries are Allah’s countries and the people are Allah’s servants, so wherever you find good living atmosphere, then live.” [Musnad Ahmad (1420) – with a weak chain of transmission]
The second opinion is that of the Mâlikî and Zâhirî schools of law – that it is obligatory for a Muslim to emigrate from a non-Muslim country to a Muslim country if he is capable of doing so.
The cite hadîth like:
“Do not be in sight of each other’s house fires.” [Sunan al-Tiimidhî (1604), Sunan Abî Dâwûd (2645), and Sunan al-Nasâ’î (4780)]
There is disagreement about the authenticity of this hadîth as well as about its meaning.
The third opinion is quite the opposite of the second. Al-Mâwardî and many other Shâfi`î scholars hold the view that if a Muslim is able to practice his religion freely in a non-Muslim country, then he should not leave. They argue that it is his duty to remain in that country, because if he leaves, then the country will be devoid of a Muslim presence.
Conclusions:
What all this amounts to is that there is flexibility in the matter. If a Muslim feels the need to live in a Muslim country where he can practice his religion with greater freedom and comfort, then it is a good thing for him to do so if he gets the opportunity. However, if he finds it better for him to stay where he is, then he is free to do so. As long as he is free to practice his faith, then he may stay in his country. We might add another consideration that he must take into account: He should be able to raise his children as Muslims.
And Allah knows best.
:salam2:
I don`t know why some people insist on making this issue a "black and white" issue. Salem, I would love to reply to some of your ignorant and false comments and ideas, but let`s save it for later. :astag:
A Muslim who is able to freely practice his religion does not have to emigrate from a non-Muslim country to go live in a Muslim one. He may stay where he is and get involved in calling people to Allah and introducing the true Islamic creed to others. He must be a good example to others by his good manners and behavior and cooperate with other Muslims where he lives.
However, if he has a chance to reside in an Islamic country that could offer him more religious freedom and a more wholesome environment without having an adverse affect on his livelihood, then he may do so, but he is under no obligation.
The Prophet (peace be upon him) said:
“O Fudayk, establish prayer, avoid bad deeds, and live with your people wherever you like.” [Sahîh Ibn Hibbân (4861)]
The narrators of this hadîth are all reliable.
The meaning of the hadith:
Fudayk belonged to a tribe who were all non-Muslims. Fudayk, who had accepted Islam, used to live with them. Fudayk’s people had requested him to live with them and pledged to him that they would not impose upon him in his faith in any way.
Fudayk then went to the Prophet (peace be upon him) and asked about whether he should emigrate, saying: “O Messenger of Allah! There are people claiming that whoever does not emigrate will come to ruin.”
To this the Prophet (peace be upon him) replied: “O Fudayk, establish prayer, avoid bad deeds, and live with your people wherever you like.”
Ibn Hibbân explains the meaning of the hadîth as follows [Sahîh Ibn Hibbân (11/203)]:
The command to “establish prayer” is a command indicating obligation upon those being addressed under relevant circumstances.
The command to “avoid bad deeds” is a command indicating obligation upon all Muslims under all circumstances. They must not perpetrate evil and sinful deeds upon themselves or upon others. This refers to all deeds that Allah is displeased with
The imperative tense of the verb “live” in the phrase “and live with your people wherever you like” indicates permissibility. What it means is that if a person who shuns bad deeds as we have mentioned, then there is no harm in his living wherever he chooses to live, even if the location is not ideal.
Indeed, a Muslim who lives in a non-Muslim country should take the injunctions of this hadîth to heart and live his life accordingly. He should establish prayer. He should avoid fornication, drinking, and all other licentious, sinful deeds.
Its legal implications:
It is generally understood that a Muslim living in an Islamic country should not leave it for a non-Muslim country without a good reason. This hadîth is evidence that if a Muslim is already living in a non-Muslim country and is able to worship Allah and carry out the rites of his religion, then he is under no obligation to leave his country.
Scholars disagree regarding the emigration of a Muslim who lives in a non-Muslim country.
The first opinion is that a Muslim can live in a non-Muslim country as long as he is free to practice his religion. This is the opinion of the vast majority of jurists. It is the ruling followed by the Hanafî, Shâfi`î, and Hanbalî schools of law.
Those who hold this opinion cite the hadîth under discussion as evidence.
Another hadîth which is used as evidence for the permissibility of living in non-Muslim countries is where the Prophet (peace be upon him) said:
“The countries are Allah’s countries and the people are Allah’s servants, so wherever you find good living atmosphere, then live.” [Musnad Ahmad (1420) – with a weak chain of transmission]
The second opinion is that of the Mâlikî and Zâhirî schools of law – that it is obligatory for a Muslim to emigrate from a non-Muslim country to a Muslim country if he is capable of doing so.
The cite hadîth like:
“Do not be in sight of each other’s house fires.” [Sunan al-Tiimidhî (1604), Sunan Abî Dâwûd (2645), and Sunan al-Nasâ’î (4780)]
There is disagreement about the authenticity of this hadîth as well as about its meaning.
The third opinion is quite the opposite of the second. Al-Mâwardî and many other Shâfi`î scholars hold the view that if a Muslim is able to practice his religion freely in a non-Muslim country, then he should not leave. They argue that it is his duty to remain in that country, because if he leaves, then the country will be devoid of a Muslim presence.
Conclusions:
What all this amounts to is that there is flexibility in the matter. If a Muslim feels the need to live in a Muslim country where he can practice his religion with greater freedom and comfort, then it is a good thing for him to do so if he gets the opportunity. However, if he finds it better for him to stay where he is, then he is free to do so. As long as he is free to practice his faith, then he may stay in his country. We might add another consideration that he must take into account: He should be able to raise his children as Muslims.
And Allah knows best.
:salam2:
MOSABJA
Junior Member
i think to some extent you are right .If Muslims are able to practice their religion freely then They can live.But what about FRANCE.
Any way I think the answer of this question lies in Niyyah(intetntion).
If the intention is to spread Islam,seeking medical treatment or acquiring education then it is right.
But I highly doubt that if it is allowed to Migrate from Muslim lands to kaffir lands just because of Good job and $$$$ and Luxurious life style.
Because such people are actually strengthening the hands of kaffirs.
Their sweat is turned into blood of Muslims.
They pay taxes work as engineers and strengthen economy of kuffars.
With same economy they kill million in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Immigrants work for them strengthen their economy.
At the kaffir government keep teasing them by Bills,Hijabs,Islamophobia .so pity.
Muslim living in kaffir lands have to understand thay they may be born in these countries,They may have citizen ship.But they will always remain OTHERS
Can any brother or Sister living in kaffir lands say from his/heart that the Kaffirs accept them as one of themselves .answer is no .They will always remain as SECOND CLASS OTHERS
Any way I think the answer of this question lies in Niyyah(intetntion).
If the intention is to spread Islam,seeking medical treatment or acquiring education then it is right.
But I highly doubt that if it is allowed to Migrate from Muslim lands to kaffir lands just because of Good job and $$$$ and Luxurious life style.
Because such people are actually strengthening the hands of kaffirs.
Their sweat is turned into blood of Muslims.
They pay taxes work as engineers and strengthen economy of kuffars.
With same economy they kill million in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Immigrants work for them strengthen their economy.
At the kaffir government keep teasing them by Bills,Hijabs,Islamophobia .so pity.
Muslim living in kaffir lands have to understand thay they may be born in these countries,They may have citizen ship.But they will always remain OTHERS
Can any brother or Sister living in kaffir lands say from his/heart that the Kaffirs accept them as one of themselves .answer is no .They will always remain as SECOND CLASS OTHERS
salam aleikum
Im sorry to say that ,but I really hate to hear when people start judging others ,no scholars on the West ok let me agree ,but they do no not call themselves scholars .Yasir Qadi never said he is a scholar.We dont have scholars here in Us ,but alhamdulillah we still have many great people who are giving their lives in giving dawah and calling people to Islam .They are not scholars but lets not point fingers at them ,as only Allah SWT can judge them..
About immigrating to muslim country I dont want argue on this issue,but where is a muslim country ?does it exist at all? Will saudia,the only country I would call islamic , accept me to live there if Im not arab? who will pay for my ticket to go to muslim country ? who will work for me there and help me to survive ? Lets all immigrate, sure ,but how? .Lets be realistic.....
And who garantee me I wont be second class if I live in Muslim country .If Im russian not arab ,wont I be looked down upon there? Many muslim lands are full of shirk,alhamdulillah I found Islam here .I have no problem practicing my religion and I can call people to Allah here ...Im here because I dont have choice but still if I had a choice I would go and live in a muslim land ,however it is ...Many people think that muslims leaving there lands because they want money,thats why they live in a kafir countries and that to live here is a Paradise ,well its completely wrong thinking ...
Many muslims live here not because of money or the comfort of life ,but because they start learning their religion here and practice it .Sounds strange but its true..
waaleikum salam
island muslim
Junior Member
Salaam Alaiykum,
I agree completely with sister Aisha.
On top of that we have NON islamic matters implemented in Saudi Arabia which does not allow ANY migration of muslims into Saudi.
1) A Saudi brother CANNOT marry a sister from another country Without the permission from the king.
2) A saudi sister CANNOT ever marry a muslim from another country.
This is NOT islamic rules. For marriage if the parents agree and the mahr is paid then NO ONE can say who is to merry and who is not according to quran.
Wonder why the ulema does not speak against that.
Also Saudia does not allow anyone to come there and become citizens even if they have money. In Islam A muslim can move freely in all muslim lands.
I agree completely with sister Aisha.
On top of that we have NON islamic matters implemented in Saudi Arabia which does not allow ANY migration of muslims into Saudi.
1) A Saudi brother CANNOT marry a sister from another country Without the permission from the king.
2) A saudi sister CANNOT ever marry a muslim from another country.
This is NOT islamic rules. For marriage if the parents agree and the mahr is paid then NO ONE can say who is to merry and who is not according to quran.
Wonder why the ulema does not speak against that.
Also Saudia does not allow anyone to come there and become citizens even if they have money. In Islam A muslim can move freely in all muslim lands.
salah_khan
New Member
i disagree with salem on the dawah matter
asalamualikum,
the thing i disagree most is when brother has said that the dawah is the job only for scholars, thats not correct,Prophet Muhammed(PBUH) on his last sermon said to his people , pass on my message to ones who are not present here let it be onle one verse of the quran. were all the sahabas present over there scholars, answer is no. And nowadays majority of the scholars dont no foriegn languages nor they know the religious scriptures of the other religions , they r busy debating on the fiqh matters and giving less importance to dawah and one more thing All the videos you see of the reverts majority of them the means of thier accetance of islam were reverts themselves or normal muslims who knew basics of islam they were not scholars. so plz brother i want you to correct yourself with regards to this dawah matter.
thankyou
jazakaAllah
asalamualikum,
the thing i disagree most is when brother has said that the dawah is the job only for scholars, thats not correct,Prophet Muhammed(PBUH) on his last sermon said to his people , pass on my message to ones who are not present here let it be onle one verse of the quran. were all the sahabas present over there scholars, answer is no. And nowadays majority of the scholars dont no foriegn languages nor they know the religious scriptures of the other religions , they r busy debating on the fiqh matters and giving less importance to dawah and one more thing All the videos you see of the reverts majority of them the means of thier accetance of islam were reverts themselves or normal muslims who knew basics of islam they were not scholars. so plz brother i want you to correct yourself with regards to this dawah matter.
thankyou
jazakaAllah
abdellah007
Junior Member
Just to let you know that Saudi Arabia is not a perfect muslim country.
yes they practise sharia in such matters but the main thing is how people there react toward forigners. if you are working at someone there he will take your passport and never give it back to you till the end of the contract, this means if you want to go back to your country so you cant.friend of mine has spent a year there , he says it s like a hell. of course it a blessing land ( makkah and madina) but some saudis are not acting as muslims. if you dont believe ask about Saudis going to other countries for haram things.
of course not all saudis are bad but just dont make it as a perfect country.
wa salam
podolski11
PAIN
raise his children as muslims??....theres is no garantee in that now is there??...cause if u put a kid with kaffir kids its more likely he will go with the kaffir kids thinking and ideology and I have seen many muslims going to clubs or a daily basis!....this is bcause of living in the kaffir country cause ull have to send them to school and there will b mostly kids that influence the muslim 1s to join them in there bad work...... I do agree that muslim PREACHERS should live there to spread Islam but i dont c any reason why other people working there for MONEY and citizenship b there!....and u and i both know that mostly muslims are living there to make money and not spread Islam........
realistic is the rite word indeed..why should a man keep a beard and a woman wear a wijab?......well(think hard)??.....
there is more discrimination in the kaffir country and u should agree to that i hope but if u call people to Islam then that i a good reason to stay there and may Allah swt help u BUT if ur there for lets say money then count me out on that part.........
NO offence to any1....
island muslim
Junior Member
Maybe first the Ulema should call upon the king to then implement 100% Islamic laws by asking the king to open saudia for muslims to migrate before they ask of our revert brothers and sisters to leave for the sake of Islam. First there must be a Islamic country willing to welcome them. 
People here are giving their Own Opinions, and what they THINK when the Ullema already have given the answer to this matter. I already gave the answer to this in My First Post, and it was from islam-qa. No need to Lenghten the discussion for no reason.
Also why only Saudi???? looool Okay I agree that KSA has a tough Immigration Issue, but I can assue you that 99% of the People who leave Muslim countries to Kuffar countries are not from Saudi Arabia matter of fact I have yet to meet a Muslim who comes from Saudi Arabia personally and I don't think Saudi Arabia Allows people to Immigrate to the West Either. The Muslims living in America have their own countries which they came from. Like in My Example, wouldn't it be better for them to just stay where they are and Help Improve the Situation of their Own Nation then to Just Avoid it?
Also yes Yasir Qadhi is not a scholar I didn't say he said he was, I only pointed it out to someone who posted a video of Him in responce to what Shiekh Uthaymeen said. So I told him Shiekh Uthaymeen is a Scholar while Yasir Qadhi is not and so he does not have any weight to what is said regarding this issue.
salah-khan wrote: "And nowadays majority of the scholars dont no foriegn languages nor they know the religious scriptures of the other religions , they r busy debating on the fiqh matters and giving less importance to dawah and one more thing All the videos you see of the reverts majority of them the means of thier accetance of islam were reverts themselves or normal muslims who knew basics of islam they were not scholars"
1. Matter of Fact when Omar ibn Khattab Radia'Allahu'an read the Torah The Prophet became Angry and He forbade Muslims from reading other peoples Scripture unless they are scholars and Knowlegable people and the book won't hinder their belief in Allah.
2. Learning Foriegn Langugaes is not Important, we Muslims have Arabic, Even Shiekh Al-Albani who wasn't even an arab himself said Learning the Arabic Language is Mandatory for All Muslims. And Shiekh ul Islam Ibn Taymiyaa Said it is Disliked to Learn another Language except Arabic.
3. Believe me 99% of time those people who come to Islam don't come to Islam because of Muslims. Those people who come to Islam do so because they studied Islam amoung themselves and found the truth after themselves studing the Deen. And Allah is the one who Guides the people to Islam not Muslims.
4. And It is the Job of Scholars and Knowlegable people to give Dawah Like I said Before. You don't want some Ignorant person who noting about Islma giving Dawah? Like I had this Person telling me that a Muslim told me that Islam Started in the 7th Century. Which is wrong, because we Believe Islam was there even during the time of the Prophet Adam alayi'Salaam. But this is the Dawah the Muslims are giving those who know noting about Islam, and so they are confusing the non-muslims even More with their Own personal beliefs which they hold. If you go ask 10 different average Muslims about certain issues in Islam they will give you 10 different answers. this is what I'm talking about.
As-Salaam 3laikum Wa Ra7matullahi Wa Barakatu
Also why only Saudi???? looool Okay I agree that KSA has a tough Immigration Issue, but I can assue you that 99% of the People who leave Muslim countries to Kuffar countries are not from Saudi Arabia matter of fact I have yet to meet a Muslim who comes from Saudi Arabia personally and I don't think Saudi Arabia Allows people to Immigrate to the West Either. The Muslims living in America have their own countries which they came from. Like in My Example, wouldn't it be better for them to just stay where they are and Help Improve the Situation of their Own Nation then to Just Avoid it?
Also yes Yasir Qadhi is not a scholar I didn't say he said he was, I only pointed it out to someone who posted a video of Him in responce to what Shiekh Uthaymeen said. So I told him Shiekh Uthaymeen is a Scholar while Yasir Qadhi is not and so he does not have any weight to what is said regarding this issue.
salah-khan wrote: "And nowadays majority of the scholars dont no foriegn languages nor they know the religious scriptures of the other religions , they r busy debating on the fiqh matters and giving less importance to dawah and one more thing All the videos you see of the reverts majority of them the means of thier accetance of islam were reverts themselves or normal muslims who knew basics of islam they were not scholars"
1. Matter of Fact when Omar ibn Khattab Radia'Allahu'an read the Torah The Prophet became Angry and He forbade Muslims from reading other peoples Scripture unless they are scholars and Knowlegable people and the book won't hinder their belief in Allah.
2. Learning Foriegn Langugaes is not Important, we Muslims have Arabic, Even Shiekh Al-Albani who wasn't even an arab himself said Learning the Arabic Language is Mandatory for All Muslims. And Shiekh ul Islam Ibn Taymiyaa Said it is Disliked to Learn another Language except Arabic.
3. Believe me 99% of time those people who come to Islam don't come to Islam because of Muslims. Those people who come to Islam do so because they studied Islam amoung themselves and found the truth after themselves studing the Deen. And Allah is the one who Guides the people to Islam not Muslims.
4. And It is the Job of Scholars and Knowlegable people to give Dawah Like I said Before. You don't want some Ignorant person who noting about Islma giving Dawah? Like I had this Person telling me that a Muslim told me that Islam Started in the 7th Century. Which is wrong, because we Believe Islam was there even during the time of the Prophet Adam alayi'Salaam. But this is the Dawah the Muslims are giving those who know noting about Islam, and so they are confusing the non-muslims even More with their Own personal beliefs which they hold. If you go ask 10 different average Muslims about certain issues in Islam they will give you 10 different answers. this is what I'm talking about.
As-Salaam 3laikum Wa Ra7matullahi Wa Barakatu
Sister, I'm sorry to say that...but please don't give your opinion on this...please refer to scholars as to meaning ot the destination of Hijra. According to Islaam is not to "The perfect Islamic Country". If it exists, there nothing like it.
It is to a Country where Muslim are incharge of things and this is the opinion of the Scholars and even of Salaf...PLease refer book on Hijrah
Al-Fasl-ul-Mubeen fee Mas'alat-il-Hijrah wa Mufaaraqat-il-Mushrikeen
by Husayn Al-'Awaayishah
where has discussed this issue in great detail.
He quotes extensive Prooof of Hijrah according to Qurana and Sunnah.
Then he goes on to quote extensively from scholars of Salaf on the issue...
I agree, that there are practical aspects of Hijra and we need to plan rather than just jump to some country.
There is forum which discusses practical aspects of Hijrah
www.hijra.net
Fiqh is not equal to Quran and Sunnah
Turn to islam have always been a nice forum to discuss the real issues, which the muslims are facing and it is still serving that purpose. However, I don't think, the brothers and sisters are doing any service to this forum, when they bring up some non-issues and quote fatwas, which belong to a narrow understanding of Islam.
The discussion in the time of our Salf about living among mushrikeen has a completly different context. The verses in Quran dealing with muslims, who chose to remain in Makkah do not apply to muslims living in non-muslim countries today. We should keep in mind the eternal law of itmaam al-hujja, according to which, when a rasool (and not a nabi) would leave his people after the permission of Allah, azaab of Allah could come to them any time. Hijrah to Medina was compulsory and and remaining in Makkah was not sanctioned by the Prophet.
The word mushrikeen used in Quran is specific to the mushrikeen of Arabia, who were punished by the hands of the muslims as specified in Surah Taubah. That punishment, however, has nothing to do with law, which applies to us.
Fuqaha have introduced terms like dar ul islam and dar ul harb and made laws about life of muslims in dar ul harb. What we should never forget is, that our deen consists of Quran and Sunnah. Quran and Sunnah are divine and above human criticism. Fiqh, however, is a human work and can always be criticized on the basis of Quran and Sunnah. When somebody wants to impose a certain understanding of Fiqh on everybody as "the islam", those verses come to my mind, which accuse jews of making their scholars their deity. Recall, when Abdullah bin Salaam RA asked Prophet SAW, what was meant by those verses, as he knew from the time, when he was a jew that it was apparently not the case. The prophet asked him, was it not the case, that you considered everything to be halal, which your scholars told you to be halal and was it not the case, that you considered everything haram, which your scholars told you to be haram.
It certainly is the case, that on the day of judgement, it will not be accepted as a reason not to act upon Islam, because the laws of the land were not permitting it. There are verses in Quran (and I have no time to find the exact reference), which make it compulsory to move to another place in that case. Looking at muslim youth living in Ghettos in France, for example, I would really think about those verses. However, having said that, I don't believe those laws of Fiqh have any relevance to the muslims living in west in general. The national states of today cannot be divided in dar ul islam and dar ul harb, even though some non-muslim countries are at war with some other. The reason, why I think this division does not apply today is the modern concept of Nationality, which was never there.
Now imagine, if I dislike west and like Saudi Arabia and am willing to move there. Is that all, what I need? my willingness? I am afraid not. If I really want to enjoy equal rights like other Saudi citizens, I might have to wait my whole life, unless one of his highnesses or his excellencies gets kind on me. Besides, I would feel suffocated living in a land, where state-financed scholars have declared political demonstrations a "Bid'a"
I summarize: Brother Salem, you are quoting fatwas, which are certainly meant for some people, who are not strong enough to transfer Islam to their next generations but have no general validity. Most of the quotations in the original fatwa have either no validity on today's political landscape or they are secondary resources like Fiqh (which represent opinions of a scholars but they are not equal to deen ) or akhbar al ahaad, which do not define our deen.
Turn to islam have always been a nice forum to discuss the real issues, which the muslims are facing and it is still serving that purpose. However, I don't think, the brothers and sisters are doing any service to this forum, when they bring up some non-issues and quote fatwas, which belong to a narrow understanding of Islam.
The discussion in the time of our Salf about living among mushrikeen has a completly different context. The verses in Quran dealing with muslims, who chose to remain in Makkah do not apply to muslims living in non-muslim countries today. We should keep in mind the eternal law of itmaam al-hujja, according to which, when a rasool (and not a nabi) would leave his people after the permission of Allah, azaab of Allah could come to them any time. Hijrah to Medina was compulsory and and remaining in Makkah was not sanctioned by the Prophet.
The word mushrikeen used in Quran is specific to the mushrikeen of Arabia, who were punished by the hands of the muslims as specified in Surah Taubah. That punishment, however, has nothing to do with law, which applies to us.
Fuqaha have introduced terms like dar ul islam and dar ul harb and made laws about life of muslims in dar ul harb. What we should never forget is, that our deen consists of Quran and Sunnah. Quran and Sunnah are divine and above human criticism. Fiqh, however, is a human work and can always be criticized on the basis of Quran and Sunnah. When somebody wants to impose a certain understanding of Fiqh on everybody as "the islam", those verses come to my mind, which accuse jews of making their scholars their deity. Recall, when Abdullah bin Salaam RA asked Prophet SAW, what was meant by those verses, as he knew from the time, when he was a jew that it was apparently not the case. The prophet asked him, was it not the case, that you considered everything to be halal, which your scholars told you to be halal and was it not the case, that you considered everything haram, which your scholars told you to be haram.
It certainly is the case, that on the day of judgement, it will not be accepted as a reason not to act upon Islam, because the laws of the land were not permitting it. There are verses in Quran (and I have no time to find the exact reference), which make it compulsory to move to another place in that case. Looking at muslim youth living in Ghettos in France, for example, I would really think about those verses. However, having said that, I don't believe those laws of Fiqh have any relevance to the muslims living in west in general. The national states of today cannot be divided in dar ul islam and dar ul harb, even though some non-muslim countries are at war with some other. The reason, why I think this division does not apply today is the modern concept of Nationality, which was never there.
Now imagine, if I dislike west and like Saudi Arabia and am willing to move there. Is that all, what I need? my willingness? I am afraid not. If I really want to enjoy equal rights like other Saudi citizens, I might have to wait my whole life, unless one of his highnesses or his excellencies gets kind on me. Besides, I would feel suffocated living in a land, where state-financed scholars have declared political demonstrations a "Bid'a"
I summarize: Brother Salem, you are quoting fatwas, which are certainly meant for some people, who are not strong enough to transfer Islam to their next generations but have no general validity. Most of the quotations in the original fatwa have either no validity on today's political landscape or they are secondary resources like Fiqh (which represent opinions of a scholars but they are not equal to deen ) or akhbar al ahaad, which do not define our deen.
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