Nasara/Christians

Rashadi

Junior Member
Salaam Aleykom, I have noticed that the Arabic word for a christian is "Masihi" or "Masihyun". Since the Quran is in Arabic, one would assume the word to be found all over but instead it does not exist and there is a reason for it. Whenever the Quran speaks of Christians this word is translated from "Nasara" and the word Masihi is no where to be found in the Quran. It is a historical fact that the word "Christian" was never used by the earliest followers of Isa al Masih(as) but it was used by the followers of Paul and it was they who became known as Christians. The best of historians, the source of all knowledge and Author of the Quran(Allah swt) never uses the word Christian or Masihi at all. Although this word would have been used by Christians in the 7th century, the Quran refers to the followers of Isa as Nasara and continues using this title even when speaking of later Christians.

What is interesting about this word is that some people assume that comes from a city called Nazareth but that is false. There was no city named Nazareth in the time Jesus(as) but such city was later named out of embarrassment to cover up for the ignorance of the Gospel authors who were not Nasara. Nasara was a movement from among Bani Israel and it was to these people that the Injeel was revealed. Isa(as) was the Masih
(annointed) and he was a Messenger sent to Bani Israel. Therefore, the Injeel was also revealed for these people and the Nasara movement was not another religion but rather ethnic Jews or Israelites who were upholders of the Torah, Tawhid and were awaiting the Masih to help them against the Kafirs and oppressors. I found some interesting information from a web site called "the nazarene way" and it talks about the historical time period in which Isa(as) lived.

Christians think that the Quran is false and has got it all wrong and of course it appears so if we get our informkation and "truths" from them or their sources. Of course the Quran is not wrong or else I wouldn't accept it as the word of Allah(swt) but in reality the Jesus of Christianity and Christianity itself is the problem. What I mean is that the New Testament authors have gotten a whole bunch of stuff wrong and at the same time major events that were taken time at the time are not even mentioned. Someone who is totally ignorant of history in Palestine 2,000 years ago and starts reading the New Testament would get an idea that it was peaceful and quiet. One would never get an impression that it was a violent time period and there was a brutal Roman occupation. The New Testament is totally silent on major events that are taking place in the time of Isa(as) or Jesus as they like to call him. The way I look at the New Testament is like an author writing a book on the history of New York city and not mentioning 9/11. It would be absurd to write a book about New York City and completely fail to mention the events of 9/11. The same can be said about the New Testament and its silence on the horrific events taking place in the time of Isa(as).

Of course if we were to accept the Christian version of Jesus and history as truth, it would appear that we are wrong and that the Quran goes against reality but that is not the case. The Quran appears 600 years after Isa(as) yet tells us of things the New Testament got wrong. One thing that needs to be clarified is that Palestine was not a peaceful place at this time. It was under a brutal Roman occupation, pious Bani Israel are being crucified by the thousands, they are over taxed and they are waiting for the Messiah. What else would it mean for the Jews to use words like Messiah or the Shema Israel which is like our shadah during that time period? They were waiting for someone to deliver them from the Romans and establish a land which would be ruled by the Torah. There were Jews who were hellenized and loved Roman rule. These people would naturally be against a Messiah and would want to kill such.

The Quran tells us in great deal about the Jews in this time period and one example is :

"61.14 . O ye who believe! Be Allah ' s helpers , even as jesus son of Mary said unto the disciples : Who are my helpers for Allah? They said : We are Allah ' s helpers . And a party of the Children of Israel believed , while a party disbelieved . Then We strengthened those who believed against their foe , and they became the uppermost ."

As one can see there were those who believed and others who did not believe. Those who disbelieved were pro Roman and wanted to harm Isa(as) and the Quran tells us about that as well:

"5.110 . When Allah saith : O Jesus , son of Mary! Remember My favor unto thee and unto thy mother ; how I strengthened thee with the holy Spirit , so that thou spakest unto mankind in the cradle as in maturity ; and how I taught thee the Scripture and Wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel ; and how thou didst shape of clay as it were the likeness of a bird by My permission , and didst blow upon it and it was a bird by My permission , and thou didst heal him who was born blind and the leper by My permission ; and how thou didst raise the dead , by My permission and how I restrained the Children of Israel from ( harming ) thee when thou camest unto them with clear proofs , and those of them who disbelieved exclaimed : This is naught else than mere magic ;"

The verse is clear that they wanted to harm him but Allah protected him. The Quran is also clear on the message of Jesus that he came to confirm the Torah and to uphold it but many of his people were not doing so. It is a historical fact that many Jews had become Hellenized and were not living up to the Torah or else there would be nothing for Isa(as) to confirm and there would be nothing for the Quran to confirm and protect if the Torah is intact and fully preserved. Isa told his followers to obey him and fear Allah. He also announced to them that he was a messenger sent to them by Allah and he called on them to support him. This would be a natural problem for the disbelieving Jews and it is logic that they would want him dead. The last thing they want to hear is this kind of message just as the Christians or Jews today do not want to hear about Islam since it exposes much of what is hidden. If one reads the Quran independently and without using the New Testament, one will notice the difference and the Quran is not wrong nor does it conflict with established historical facts.

Here is some history about the time period of Isa and ponder over the verses of the Quran and one gets a good idea of what happened to Isa and how we have the truth and anyone who loved Jesus will have no choice but to come to Islam because this where he will found:

"This was a period marked by cultural and political dilemmas. Culturally, Jews had to grapple with the values of Hellenism and Hellenistic philosophy. Moreover, as many Jews lived in the Diaspora, and Judea itself was populated by many Gentiles, Jews had to confront a paradox in their own tradition: their Torah applied only to them, but revealed universal truths. This situation led to new interpretations of the Torah, influenced by Hellenic thought and in response to Gentile interest in Judaism.

Jesus lived at a time when Judea was ruled directly by a Roman Procurator, while Galilee was ruled indirectly through the Tetrarch Herod Antipas, son of Herod the Great. During this time the religion of the Jews centered on the Temple in Jerusalem, but no particular form of Judaism was established as the predominant and correct one. Some Jews formed social and political movements, such as the Sadducees the aristocratic party, aligned with the ruling priests, Pharisees who developed a non-priestly approach to Judaism and were, at this time, apolitical, Essenes who developed a non-Temple oriented but priestly approach to Judaism, and who were apolitical, and the Zealots who were politically opposed to Roman occupation. Most Jews belonged to none of these parties. Moreover, many individuals claimed to speak for God, in the prophetic tradition of Isaiah and Jeremiah, or to be able to heal people, in the prophetic tradition of Elisha.

This was moreover a volatile period in Jewish history. Most Jews were desperately poor and resented having to pay tribute to Rome. Although Jews were relatively autonomous, ruled by a Jewish high priest and tetrarch, these officials were appointed by Rome and thus had questionable legitimacy. Moreover, the Second Temple itself, rebuilt under Persian auspices, had uncertain legitimacy.

During this time many Jews hoped that the Romans would be replaced by a Jewish king (also referred to as "the anointed", or messiah, as kings were anointed) of the line of David – the last legitimate Jewish regime. However, Jews were divided over how this might occur. Most Jews believed that their history was governed by God. For example, many believed that the Babylonian Exile, the conquest of Babylon by the Persians (who allowed Jews to rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem), the defeat of the Seleucids by the Jews, and the conquest of Judea by the Romans, were all divine acts. They thus believed that the Romans were instruments of God, and would be replaced by a Jewish king only through divine intervention; thus, the majority of Jews accepted Roman rule. Others (primarily the Zealots) believed that the kingdom should be restored immediately, through violent human action.

"Jesus seems not to have belonged to any particular party; Jesus was special (perhaps even unique) in combining elements of many of these different – and for most Jews, opposing – positions. Most critical scholars see Jesus as working in the prophetic tradition, both as a mouthpiece for God and as an itinerant healer. However, many of his teachings echoed the beliefs of the Qumran community (which was likely a branch of the Essenes); he may have engaged the Pharisees on matters of Jewish law (most scholars believe that many of the debates between Jesus and the Pharisees found in the Gospels were added after Jesus' death, at a time when the Pharisees emerged as the dominant form of Judaism and the primary competitors with Christians as interpreters of the Bible); and his declarations that the kingdom was at hand echoed the Zealots. Many historians and other scholars argue that it is more likely that, like most Jews, Jesus believed that the restoration of the monarchy would be accomplished by God, not by any movement of Jews. However, he did believe that this restoration was immanent. Jesus was enigmatic at best about his claim to actually be the presumptive monarch, but it is likely that he believed that as soon as God restored the monarchy, he would be anointed as king. That he speaks of twelve disciples is probably symbolic of the twelve tribes of Israel, and thus a metaphor for "all of Israel (the Gospels name fourteen disciples; Paul mentions a "twelve" that does not include Peter or other disciples).

Talk of a restoration of the monarchy was seditious under Roman occupation, and Jesus entered Jerusalem at an especially risky time. Jews were required to offer sacrifices at the Temple three times a year: Passover, Sukkot, and Shavuot. Although most Jews did not have the means to travel to Jerusalem for every holiday, virtually all tried to comply with these laws as best they could. Thus, during these festivals the population of Jerusalem swelled – and outbreaks of violence and riots were common. Critical scholars argue that the high priest feared that Jesus' talk of an immanent restoration of an independent Jewish state would likely spark a riot. As maintaining the peace was one of the primary jobs of the high priest, whom the Romans held personally responsible for any major outbreak of violence, he had Jesus arrested and turned him over to the Romans for execution. "

As one can see from the above historical accounts, the Quran gives an accurate picture and we have valuable information and there would be a reason for the Romans and the disbelieving Jews to want to crucify him and of course the Quran refutes the crucifixion and states it was made to appear that way. The Quranic position is supported by at least two separate documents found at the Nag Hammadi scrolls in 1945. These documents are older than any of the manuscripts of the New Testament and belonged to a community which did not call itself "Christian". In two separate documents the crucifixion is denied and both confirm the Quran:

“I saw him apparently being seized by them. And I said, “what am I seeing, O Lord? Is it really you whom they take? And are you holding on to me? And are they hammering the feet and hands of another? The Savior said to me, “He whom you saw being glad and laughing above the cross is the Living Jesus. But he into whose hands and feet they are driving the nails is his fleshy part, which is THE substitute. They put to shame that which remained in his LIKENESS. And look at him, and [look at] me!” (Apocalypse of Peter)

There is another tradition from this collection that reads:

“...It was another who drank the gall and vinegar; it was not I. They struck me with the reed; it was ANOTHER, Simon, who bore the cross on his shoulder. It was ANOTHER upon whom they placed the crown of thorns. BUT I was rejoicing in the height over...their error...AND I WAS LAUGHING at their ignorance.” (The Second Treatise of The Great Seth).

Again these writings are older than the New testament and were lost over 400 years before the Quran and were only discovered barely 60 years ago.

:wasalam:
 

BigAk

Junior Member
:salam2: Brother Rashadi

This is an excellent post.. I thank you very much for the information... I have always wanted to learn more about the historical period of that era and how it influenced various beliefs and how the current bible finally came to be.

I found some interesting information from a web site called "the nazarene way" and it talks about the historical time period in which Isa(as) lived.

Could you please point me to some of those web sites that you've run across that talks about this historical period of time?? I am interested in reading more.

The way I look at the New Testament is like an author writing a book on the history of New York city and not mentioning 9/11. It would be absurd to write a book about New York City and completely fail to mention the events of 9/11. The same can be said about the New Testament and its silence on the horrific events taking place in the time of Isa(as).

I loved your analogy above... I hope you didn't copy write it; as I would like to start using it during my dialogs.. LOL

Jazak Allah khair my brother Rashadi. :D

.
 

sazk

Banned
i'm sorry for my earlier posts and am trying to delete them. posted out of ignorance. corrected out of repentance
 

BigAk

Junior Member
walekum as salam brother. brother first of all your opening facts are wrong. Get your facts straight.
"Masihi" is Arabic for "Christ" which itself comes from "Christos" which is greek for "The Anointed One".

.

Brother sazk... No offense intended.. But please modify your tone when addressing brother Rashadi.. Statement in red is too harsh... Brother Rashadi is a very respectible member in our community and he can dance circles around us with his immense knowledge and grace... Please read some of his posts and you'll see what I mean..

Jazak Allah khair..

:salam2:

.
 

salek

Junior Member
please write in modest voice

walekum as salam brother. brother first of all your opening facts are wrong. Get your facts straight."Masihi" is Arabic for "Christ" which itself comes from "Christos" which is greek for "The Anointed One".

Masihi is not Arabic for Christian. This word occurs in Chapter
3:45.
5:17.
9:30.

It is simply arabic for The Anointed One because Isa (Jesus) was anointed with oil.

The followers of Isa were muslims. "Christians" was a derogatory term used by the Romans to denote that these people worship Jesus, when in fact the very first of them were muslims (those who submit their will to Allah). They never worshipped Jesus.

Also bear in mind that Allah is arabic for GOD. even today the Arab Christians and Arab Jews have no other word for GOD other than Allah.
\
DEAR BROTHER,
ASSALALMU ALAIKUM. I AM AGREE WITH BIGAK BROTHER THAT BROTHER RASHDI IS A VERY VERY RESPECTALBLE AND VERY FAVOURITE WRITER AMONG US. WE ARE GREATELY INFLUENCED BY HIM BY HIS MANY ENORMOUS EFFORTS TO CREATE SO MANY BEAUTIRUL ARTICLES. IF WE FIND SOMETHING THAT IS CONTRARY TO MY OPINION WE SHOULD NOT SAY IN HARSH LANGUAGE. RATHER WE CAN BE MODEST OR POLITE TO DISCLOSE MY OPINION. HOPE YOU UNDERSTAND. MAY ALLAH STREANGTHEN THE BROTHERSHOOD AMONG US. AMEEN

A BROTHER
 

salek

Junior Member
THANK YOU BROTHER FOR YOUR NICE EFFORT

Salaam Aleykom, I have noticed that the Arabic word for a christian is "Masihi" or "Masihyun". Since the Quran is in Arabic, one would assume the word to be found all over but instead it does not exist and there is a reason for it. Whenever the Quran speaks of Christians this word is translated from "Nasara" and the word Masihi is no where to be found in the Quran. It is a historical fact that the word "Christian" was never used by the earliest followers of Isa al Masih(as) but it was used by the followers of Paul and it was they who became known as Christians. The best of historians, the source of all knowledge and Author of the Quran(Allah swt) never uses the word Christian or Masihi at all. Although this word would have been used by Christians in the 7th century, the Quran refers to the followers of Isa as Nasara and continues using this title even when speaking of later Christians.

What is interesting about this word is that some people assume that comes from a city called Nazareth but that is false. There was no city named Nazareth in the time Jesus(as) but such city was later named out of embarrassment to cover up for the ignorance of the Gospel authors who were not Nasara. Nasara was a movement from among Bani Israel and it was to these people that the Injeel was revealed. Isa(as) was the Masih
(annointed) and he was a Messenger sent to Bani Israel. Therefore, the Injeel was also revealed for these people and the Nasara movement was not another religion but rather ethnic Jews or Israelites who were upholders of the Torah, Tawhid and were awaiting the Masih to help them against the Kafirs and oppressors. I found some interesting information from a web site called "the nazarene way" and it talks about the historical time period in which Isa(as) lived.

Christians think that the Quran is false and has got it all wrong and of course it appears so if we get our informkation and "truths" from them or their sources. Of course the Quran is not wrong or else I wouldn't accept it as the word of Allah(swt) but in reality the Jesus of Christianity and Christianity itself is the problem. What I mean is that the New Testament authors have gotten a whole bunch of stuff wrong and at the same time major events that were taken time at the time are not even mentioned. Someone who is totally ignorant of history in Palestine 2,000 years ago and starts reading the New Testament would get an idea that it was peaceful and quiet. One would never get an impression that it was a violent time period and there was a brutal Roman occupation. The New Testament is totally silent on major events that are taking place in the time of Isa(as) or Jesus as they like to call him. The way I look at the New Testament is like an author writing a book on the history of New York city and not mentioning 9/11. It would be absurd to write a book about New York City and completely fail to mention the events of 9/11. The same can be said about the New Testament and its silence on the horrific events taking place in the time of Isa(as).

Of course if we were to accept the Christian version of Jesus and history as truth, it would appear that we are wrong and that the Quran goes against reality but that is not the case. The Quran appears 600 years after Isa(as) yet tells us of things the New Testament got wrong. One thing that needs to be clarified is that Palestine was not a peaceful place at this time. It was under a brutal Roman occupation, pious Bani Israel are being crucified by the thousands, they are over taxed and they are waiting for the Messiah. What else would it mean for the Jews to use words like Messiah or the Shema Israel which is like our shadah during that time period? They were waiting for someone to deliver them from the Romans and establish a land which would be ruled by the Torah. There were Jews who were hellenized and loved Roman rule. These people would naturally be against a Messiah and would want to kill such.

The Quran tells us in great deal about the Jews in this time period and one example is :

"61.14 . O ye who believe! Be Allah ' s helpers , even as jesus son of Mary said unto the disciples : Who are my helpers for Allah? They said : We are Allah ' s helpers . And a party of the Children of Israel believed , while a party disbelieved . Then We strengthened those who believed against their foe , and they became the uppermost ."

As one can see there were those who believed and others who did not believe. Those who disbelieved were pro Roman and wanted to harm Isa(as) and the Quran tells us about that as well:

"5.110 . When Allah saith : O Jesus , son of Mary! Remember My favor unto thee and unto thy mother ; how I strengthened thee with the holy Spirit , so that thou spakest unto mankind in the cradle as in maturity ; and how I taught thee the Scripture and Wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel ; and how thou didst shape of clay as it were the likeness of a bird by My permission , and didst blow upon it and it was a bird by My permission , and thou didst heal him who was born blind and the leper by My permission ; and how thou didst raise the dead , by My permission and how I restrained the Children of Israel from ( harming ) thee when thou camest unto them with clear proofs , and those of them who disbelieved exclaimed : This is naught else than mere magic ;"

The verse is clear that they wanted to harm him but Allah protected him. The Quran is also clear on the message of Jesus that he came to confirm the Torah and to uphold it but many of his people were not doing so. It is a historical fact that many Jews had become Hellenized and were not living up to the Torah or else there would be nothing for Isa(as) to confirm and there would be nothing for the Quran to confirm and protect if the Torah is intact and fully preserved. Isa told his followers to obey him and fear Allah. He also announced to them that he was a messenger sent to them by Allah and he called on them to support him. This would be a natural problem for the disbelieving Jews and it is logic that they would want him dead. The last thing they want to hear is this kind of message just as the Christians or Jews today do not want to hear about Islam since it exposes much of what is hidden. If one reads the Quran independently and without using the New Testament, one will notice the difference and the Quran is not wrong nor does it conflict with established historical facts.

Here is some history about the time period of Isa and ponder over the verses of the Quran and one gets a good idea of what happened to Isa and how we have the truth and anyone who loved Jesus will have no choice but to come to Islam because this where he will found:

"This was a period marked by cultural and political dilemmas. Culturally, Jews had to grapple with the values of Hellenism and Hellenistic philosophy. Moreover, as many Jews lived in the Diaspora, and Judea itself was populated by many Gentiles, Jews had to confront a paradox in their own tradition: their Torah applied only to them, but revealed universal truths. This situation led to new interpretations of the Torah, influenced by Hellenic thought and in response to Gentile interest in Judaism.

Jesus lived at a time when Judea was ruled directly by a Roman Procurator, while Galilee was ruled indirectly through the Tetrarch Herod Antipas, son of Herod the Great. During this time the religion of the Jews centered on the Temple in Jerusalem, but no particular form of Judaism was established as the predominant and correct one. Some Jews formed social and political movements, such as the Sadducees the aristocratic party, aligned with the ruling priests, Pharisees who developed a non-priestly approach to Judaism and were, at this time, apolitical, Essenes who developed a non-Temple oriented but priestly approach to Judaism, and who were apolitical, and the Zealots who were politically opposed to Roman occupation. Most Jews belonged to none of these parties. Moreover, many individuals claimed to speak for God, in the prophetic tradition of Isaiah and Jeremiah, or to be able to heal people, in the prophetic tradition of Elisha.

This was moreover a volatile period in Jewish history. Most Jews were desperately poor and resented having to pay tribute to Rome. Although Jews were relatively autonomous, ruled by a Jewish high priest and tetrarch, these officials were appointed by Rome and thus had questionable legitimacy. Moreover, the Second Temple itself, rebuilt under Persian auspices, had uncertain legitimacy.

During this time many Jews hoped that the Romans would be replaced by a Jewish king (also referred to as "the anointed", or messiah, as kings were anointed) of the line of David – the last legitimate Jewish regime. However, Jews were divided over how this might occur. Most Jews believed that their history was governed by God. For example, many believed that the Babylonian Exile, the conquest of Babylon by the Persians (who allowed Jews to rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem), the defeat of the Seleucids by the Jews, and the conquest of Judea by the Romans, were all divine acts. They thus believed that the Romans were instruments of God, and would be replaced by a Jewish king only through divine intervention; thus, the majority of Jews accepted Roman rule. Others (primarily the Zealots) believed that the kingdom should be restored immediately, through violent human action.

"Jesus seems not to have belonged to any particular party; Jesus was special (perhaps even unique) in combining elements of many of these different – and for most Jews, opposing – positions. Most critical scholars see Jesus as working in the prophetic tradition, both as a mouthpiece for God and as an itinerant healer. However, many of his teachings echoed the beliefs of the Qumran community (which was likely a branch of the Essenes); he may have engaged the Pharisees on matters of Jewish law (most scholars believe that many of the debates between Jesus and the Pharisees found in the Gospels were added after Jesus' death, at a time when the Pharisees emerged as the dominant form of Judaism and the primary competitors with Christians as interpreters of the Bible); and his declarations that the kingdom was at hand echoed the Zealots. Many historians and other scholars argue that it is more likely that, like most Jews, Jesus believed that the restoration of the monarchy would be accomplished by God, not by any movement of Jews. However, he did believe that this restoration was immanent. Jesus was enigmatic at best about his claim to actually be the presumptive monarch, but it is likely that he believed that as soon as God restored the monarchy, he would be anointed as king. That he speaks of twelve disciples is probably symbolic of the twelve tribes of Israel, and thus a metaphor for "all of Israel (the Gospels name fourteen disciples; Paul mentions a "twelve" that does not include Peter or other disciples).

Talk of a restoration of the monarchy was seditious under Roman occupation, and Jesus entered Jerusalem at an especially risky time. Jews were required to offer sacrifices at the Temple three times a year: Passover, Sukkot, and Shavuot. Although most Jews did not have the means to travel to Jerusalem for every holiday, virtually all tried to comply with these laws as best they could. Thus, during these festivals the population of Jerusalem swelled – and outbreaks of violence and riots were common. Critical scholars argue that the high priest feared that Jesus' talk of an immanent restoration of an independent Jewish state would likely spark a riot. As maintaining the peace was one of the primary jobs of the high priest, whom the Romans held personally responsible for any major outbreak of violence, he had Jesus arrested and turned him over to the Romans for execution. "

As one can see from the above historical accounts, the Quran gives an accurate picture and we have valuable information and there would be a reason for the Romans and the disbelieving Jews to want to crucify him and of course the Quran refutes the crucifixion and states it was made to appear that way. The Quranic position is supported by at least two separate documents found at the Nag Hammadi scrolls in 1945. These documents are older than any of the manuscripts of the New Testament and belonged to a community which did not call itself "Christian". In two separate documents the crucifixion is denied and both confirm the Quran:

“I saw him apparently being seized by them. And I said, “what am I seeing, O Lord? Is it really you whom they take? And are you holding on to me? And are they hammering the feet and hands of another? The Savior said to me, “He whom you saw being glad and laughing above the cross is the Living Jesus. But he into whose hands and feet they are driving the nails is his fleshy part, which is THE substitute. They put to shame that which remained in his LIKENESS. And look at him, and [look at] me!” (Apocalypse of Peter)

There is another tradition from this collection that reads:

“...It was another who drank the gall and vinegar; it was not I. They struck me with the reed; it was ANOTHER, Simon, who bore the cross on his shoulder. It was ANOTHER upon whom they placed the crown of thorns. BUT I was rejoicing in the height over...their error...AND I WAS LAUGHING at their ignorance.” (The Second Treatise of The Great Seth).

Again these writings are older than the New testament and were lost over 400 years before the Quran and were only discovered barely 60 years ago.

:wasalam:

ASSALAMU ALAIKUM BROTHER,
THANK YOU FOR YOUR NICE THREAD, IT'S REALLY HARD TO FIND THIS KIND OF HISTORICAL EXPLANATION ON THAT EVENT. YOU ALWAYS TRY SOMETHING UNKNOWN WHAT I LOVE . JAZAKALLAHU KHAIR.

A BROTHER
 

sazk

Banned
yeah. u're right. my bad. sorry Rashadi brother. i'm really very very sorry. please do forgive me. i am trying to delete my previous posts. thanks for the kind reprisals. may Allah give me Hidayat in the future also.

incidentally who is this Paul character? i heard a rumor that he was a made up character by those who wanted to persecute the Hawarriyun.

please forgive me
 

Der Fragende

ahlu-sunnah.com
:salam2: Brother Rashadi

This is an excellent post.. I thank you very much for the information... I have always wanted to learn more about the historical period of that era and how it influenced various beliefs and how the current bible finally came to be.

:salam2:
Nothing more to add.
:wasalam:
 

habib786

Junior Member
a very good thread .. informative... glad to know we got brothers here who try and look deeper into history .. i got to learn some new information ... thank you brother for sharing ...

Allah hafiz
 

Rashadi

Junior Member
yeah. u're right. my bad. sorry Rashadi brother. i'm really very very sorry. please do forgive me. i am trying to delete my previous posts. thanks for the kind reprisals. may Allah give me Hidayat in the future also.

incidentally who is this Paul character? i heard a rumor that he was a made up character by those who wanted to persecute the Hawarriyun.

please forgive me

No offense taken at all akhi and I love you for the sake of Allah. As for Paul, this guy is the founder of Christianity. He was a Roman Jew who was born in Tarsus and used to be an agent for the Romans and high priests. His job was to capture the followers of Isa(as) (nasara) and bring them to be executed. After he lost his job as a bounty hunter, supposedle he had an encounter with Isa(as) and began this new religion which contradicts with the followers of Isa(as) in Palestine. He is not a made up person but I definitely wouldnt trust him.
 

Rashadi

Junior Member
:salam2: Brother Rashadi

This is an excellent post.. I thank you very much for the information... I have always wanted to learn more about the historical period of that era and how it influenced various beliefs and how the current bible finally came to be.



Could you please point me to some of those web sites that you've run across that talks about this historical period of time?? I am interested in reading more.



I loved your analogy above... I hope you didn't copy write it; as I would like to start using it during my dialogs.. LOL

Jazak Allah khair my brother Rashadi. :D

.

I am glad you enjoyed it Akhi and I have used this strategy during my debates or discussions while giving dawah. It saves me a headache and they won't be able to accuse me of taking their Bible out of context. Their scripture contradicts with history anyways and I don't really need it. If they want to take their own scripture out of context, as they already do, I can be the bigger man and avoid doing so lol.
 

sazk

Banned
one man is responsible for generations and generations of blindness??? its like a butterfly effect ( the actual theory, not the movie!). bro its frightening how small actions can have so much everlasting effects.

was this paul guy present at the council of Nicea?
 

BigAk

Junior Member
I am glad you enjoyed it Akhi and I have used this strategy during my debates or discussions while giving dawah. It saves me a headache and they won't be able to accuse me of taking their Bible out of context. Their scripture contradicts with history anyways and I don't really need it. If they want to take their own scripture out of context, as they already do, I can be the bigger man and avoid doing so lol.

Brother Rashadi.. I have just recently finished reading a book by Bart Ehrman called "Misquoting Jesus; The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why".. It is an awesome book that you may find as interesting as I did. Ehrman talks a bit about the history of that time and how the scribes went on changing the scripture in order to synchronize it with their current established theologies. Ehrman is a biblical scholar and a textual critique. Interestingly, after his extensive research, he renounced Christianity and became an agnostic. Ehrman lives in my state in a city nearby... lol

.
 

gazkour

Junior Member
Assalamo alikom wa rahmato Allah wa barakato

Great information. Definitely, I have to get hold of this 'Misquoting Jesus' book inshaAllah. Can't wait to read it.

May Allah guide our christian friends.

Assalamo alikom wa rahmato Allah wa barakato
 

Rashadi

Junior Member
In fact, the disciples did not trust him and when he asked them to proselytize they asked Barnabas to travel with him in order to keep an eye on him and correct him if he teaches the wrong thing. But that didn't work out too well, I don't know why, and Paul managed to spread his strange ideas far and wide. Do you know, brother, why Barnabas failed his mission?



The council of Nicea took place at 325 A.D. and Paul was a contemporary of the disciples, so he was long dead by then. The damage was already done. Paul started a fitna about the nature of Christ and the debates lasted 300 years and cost the lives of thousands of the true followers of Jesus, peace be upon him.

First of all you are absolutely correct my brother about the followers of Jesus(pbuh) not trusting him and at one point they picked up stones to kill him in Jerusalem and it was a Roman guard(Mushrik) who saved his life. This is in his own writings. The followers of Isa(as) had sworn not to eat and drink until they killed this kafir. Much of this guy's life is a lie and made up by Christians. What we know for sure is that he was a Roman Jew who hated the Mossaic Jews and he persecuted them. He was a bounty hunter and his job was to capture these people and bring them to be captured. Furthermore, from his way back from Damascus he had the sudden vision with Jesus(pbuh) but do you know why he went to Damascus in first place? It was because he was trying to fight for his job. The high priest who Paul worked for had a daughter which was engaged to this Paul. She didn't want him and he was supposedly ugly and had a hunch back so she ran away and went to Rome; she became like a slave for Ceasar. This is an established fact and she left the Jewish faith. At this time the high priest had enough of Paul and fired him and he went to Damascus to negotiate and try to get his job back.

Keep in mind that it was on his way back that he had the supposed encounter with Jesus(pbuh) and he started preaching a new religion in the Roman world. What a good time to have such vision right as one is unemployed right? This exactly what happens here and his religion ended up clashing with that of Isa(as) and it was Christianity, not Nasara, that became prosperous eventually. There are few reasons for this success. First, Paul was a Roman citizen and could freely travel throught the empire while the followers of Isa could not. His new religion was pro Roman and against the Torah/Tawhid and the religion of Musa and Isa all together. He wanted to destroy the movement of Isa(as) and create a society in which Mushriks, Jews and everyone lives together, do whatever you want, eat pork, blood, liquor etc. He was against the Torah while the Isa movement died for their law. Christians would like us to believe that the dispute between Paul and the Isa(as) movement was small and over circumcision but this is just a cover up.

There was more involved in this and the truth is that this Paul was preaching a totally different religion in the Roman-Greco world. He was responsible for killing the successor of Jesus, Yacoub Al Zadik(James the Just) and it was Paul's religion which prevailed in the Roman world. They persecuted the followers of Isa and systematically removed them just as there is hardly no trace of them in the New Testament. After Paul was gone, there were many different Christianities throughout the Roman empire. It was Pauline theology that Constantine adopted three centuries later and made this official. So it was Paul and his klan which started this fitnah and it was the same Romans who made it successful few centuries later.
 

Rashadi

Junior Member
Brother Rashadi.. I have just recently finished reading a book by Bart Ehrman called "Misquoting Jesus; The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why".. It is an awesome book that you may find as interesting as I did. Ehrman talks a bit about the history of that time and how the scribes went on changing the scripture in order to synchronize it with their current established theologies. Ehrman is a biblical scholar and a textual critique. Interestingly, after his extensive research, he renounced Christianity and became an agnostic. Ehrman lives in my state in a city nearby... lol

.


MashaAllah it's a good book and I bought it as soon as it came out lol. It's amazing how these scribes were making changes to the manuscripts in order to comply with their desires and prejudices. I have watched Bart debate other Christians on youtube and I have heard his lectures too. He was a born again Christian who went to study the actual manuscripts for himself in the Koine Greek language. He became an agnostic afterwards and was heart broken. It's nice book and very informative.
 

sazk

Banned
I have watched Bart debate other Christians on youtube and I have heard his lectures too. He was a born again Christian who went to study the actual manuscripts for himself in the Koine Greek language. He became an agnostic afterwards and was heart broken. It's nice book and very informative.

maybe you should write him a letter asking him that now he should research Islam the way he did christianity.

if one hellenized jew can harm Isa's (PBUH) message so much, is it possible that a roman muslim can do the same thing? i fear for that. May Allah protect this Deen. (I assume you know what I am talking about)
 

BigAk

Junior Member
maybe you should write him a letter asking him that now he should research Islam the way he did christianity.

if one hellenized jew can harm Isa's (PBUH) message so much, is it possible that a roman muslim can do the same thing? i fear for that. May Allah protect this Deen. (I assume you know what I am talking about)

Who is the roman muslim you're referring to brother??

.
 

pcozzy

Junior Member
maybe you should write him a letter asking him that now he should research Islam the way he did christianity.

if one hellenized jew can harm Isa's (PBUH) message so much, is it possible that a roman muslim can do the same thing? i fear for that. May Allah protect this Deen. (I assume you know what I am talking about)

:salam2:

This here in the red, this statement is a greater issue and is not logical, if you know what I mean.

:wasalam:
 
Top