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ditta

Alhamdu'Lillaah
Staff member
As-salaamu'alaykum,

^ With that reasoning would you reject something that is not even mentioned explicitly in the Qur'aan but is clearly in the ahadith of the Prophet :saw:? That would include a lot of things off the top of my head. Obviously these scholars were not infallible but I think it is a great disservice if we do not recognise their strenuous efforts in preserving the Sunnah from Imam az-Zuhri (rahimahullah) onwards. Additionally, the Prophet :saw: was given certain signs that alluded to his Prophethood, for example knowledge of some unseen matters. Based on the reasoning you gave from what I understood, because the Qur'aan says only Allah has knowledge of the Unseen, what does that mean then?

"He who obeys the Messenger, has indeed obeyed Allah...

(Qur'aan, 4: 80)

"And whatsoever the Messenger gives you, take it and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain (from it). And fear Allah..."

(Qur'aan, 59: 7)

I recall reading an example of when a woman went to Abdullah ibn Mas'ood about him cursing the women who practice tattooing (and something else) but she responds by saying, "I have read the Qur'aan from cover to cover, and I have not found it." And he replies by quoting the above ayah (59: 7). I will try to post the full account, Insha'Allah.

Signs of the Messengers thread, specifically the post regarding the Prophet's knowledge of certain unseen matters


 

slaveofAllah88

Slave of Allah (swt)

aslam o alaikum wa rahmatuAllahi wa barakatuhu,

brother Ditta has basically answered your question and you were not able to answer the questions posed by sister 'Seeking Allah's Mercy' ,

i want to say a couple of things to you, Sahih bukhari is not a simple book to just say stuff about, and imam bukhari was not just a giant, a mountain of knowledge, he was a expert in not just hadith but aqeedah and also fiqh. and his students didn't need to defend his work, their own work spoke for imam bukhari amazing knowledge by itself.

Even though Imam Bukhari narrated his Sahih to over 90,000 students The most famous ones being
- Imam Muslim,
- Al-tirmidhi
- al-Nasai
- Abu Hatim
- Abu Bakr ibn Abi al-Dunya (A giant himself for his work in hadith)

Bukhari (rah) criterion were super strict, no others came even close to those criterion because it would have been impossible to write a book with such restrictions as Imam Bukhari had. Sahih bukhari criteria:
- Highest caliber of narrators.
- Each person in chain must have been a known student of the person above him (only work to have this condition – the rest accept biographical possibility).
- This is known either through history or through explicitly statement of the narrator – Bukhari’s condition was that he had to know that whoever was narrating hadith from a Shaikh, he must have met that Shaikh in his lifetime, if this was not the case, Bukhari would not narrate from him.

What you mentioned is not correct about scholar criticizing, infact, after the book of Allah (swt) , Bukhari is the most authentic book as agreed upon by scholars for hundreds of years, sahih bukhari has been studied in so much depth and is hence given the status of sahih.

And another beautiful thing about his work is that imam bukhari many times would quote the same hadith through difference chain of narrators (isnad) , e.g.

Bukhari :: Book 1 :: Volume 3 :: Hadith 58
Narrated Ibn 'Umar:

Allah's Apostle said, "Amongst the trees, there is a tree, the leaves of which do not fall and is like a Muslim. Tell me the name of that tree." Everybody started thinking about the trees of the desert areas. And I thought of the date-palm tree but felt shy to answer the others then asked, "What is that tree, O Allah's Apostle ?" He replied, "It is the date-palm tree."


this same hadith is mentioned ten times in the sahih every single time with a different isnad, so you can imagine the caliber of authenticity, and verification of hadith , and just by looking at the summarized version and actual version of sahih bukhari you can see the difference.

for more references you can look at these two links:
http://islamqa.info/en/ref/20153
http://islamqa.info/en/ref/33610

--------------------------------
Having said all that i hope we established that status of sahih bukhari among the scholars of ahle sunnah wa jammah, regarding the hadith you posted, see my brother please read the hadith but don't go so deep infact the advice i was given was to study the hadith under a scholar, cause it can be dangerous studying it by yourself, the hadith you posted talks about the incident which happened at gazwa e badr, now the hadith you quoted you dont know the context your missing the context it was spoken at, im posting the same incident from sahih bukhari please read it , it contains the context and inshAllah it will explain to you

Narrated Abu Talha:
On the day of Badr, the Prophet ordered that the corpses of twenty four leaders of Quraish should be thrown into one of the dirty dry wells of Badr. (It was a habit of the Prophet that whenever he conquered some people, he used to stay at the battle-field for three nights. So, on the third day of the battle of Badr, he ordered that his she-camel be saddled, then he set out, and his companions followed him saying among themselves." "Definitely he (i.e. the Prophet) is proceeding for some great purpose." When he halted at the edge of the well, he addressed the corpses of the Quraish infidels by their names and their fathers' names, "O so-and-so, son of so-and-so and O so-and-so, son of so-and-so! Would it have pleased you if you had obeyed Allah and His Apostle? We have found true what our Lord promised us. Have you too found true what your Lord promised you? "'Umar said, "O Allah's Apostle! You are speaking to bodies that have no souls!" Allah's Apostle said, "By Him in Whose Hand Muhammad's soul is, you do not hear, what I say better than they do." (Qatada said, "Allah brought them to life (again) to let them hear him, to reprimand them and slight them and take revenge over them and caused them to feel remorseful and regretful.")
(Bukhari: Book-5 Volume-59 Hadith-314)

So Allah made the bodies listen to this, just to add to their punishment

walaikum salam wa rahmatuAllahi wa barakatuhu
 

mezeren

Junior Member
slaveofAllah88;584906]aslam o alaikum wa rahmatuAllahi wa barakatuhu,

brother Ditta has basically answered your question and you were not able to answer the questions posed by sister 'Seeking Allah's Mercy'
,

No, my respected brother, unfortunataly he did not answer my question. With that frame of mind you can not either. i wil give you a clue. This narration was answered by the Mother of the Believers. i will post it inshallah.

(Qatada said, "Allah brought them to life (again) to let them hear him, to reprimand them and slight them and take revenge over them and caused them to feel remorseful and regretful.")
(Bukhari: Book-5 Volume-59 Hadith-314)

Totally wrong. it is so sad you can accept such a thing without questioning. No, Allah did not do such a thing.

Here is the answer for those who are opened their heart to the truth no matter where it comes. it is within the very same book.

Sahih Bukhari,Volume 5, Book 59, Number 317

Narrated by Ibn Umar

"The Prophet stood at the well of badr (which contained the corpses of the pagans) and said, "Have you found true what your lord promised you?" Then he further said, "They now hear what I say." This was mentioned before 'Aisha and she said, "But the Prophet said, 'Now they know very well that what I used to tell them was the truth.' Then she recited (the Holy Verse):-- "You cannot make the dead hear... till the end of Verse)." (30.52)"

When you accept the scholars to be infallible, you find absurd explanations like Qatada did. You see i am not saying throw away the whole book, all i am saying is that we should approach the narrations the way Aisha(.r.a.) have approached. And, do not affraid to use your reasoning and intellect, as well. That is what Allah Teala wants us repetadly in the Quran.
 

Seeking Allah's Mercy

Qul HuwaAllahu Ahud!
Do you form your opinions according to the labels(names of the scholars)? i reccomend you read books that have different perspectives from yours as well as the ones you have mantioned.
I don't "form" any opinions about my deen, my brother. I'm not entitled to in this case. What ever the Qur'an and hadeeth say is my deen, and whichever way the salaf explained it, is my opinion. Unless you tell me what books to read and what writers, where do you expect me to search. All the books that I've read (a pretty small quantity, I must say) lack the "different opinion" you have brought forth. It will become very easy for the rest of us if you tell us about the authority who have noted this difference of opinion. If a gaint of Hadeeth like bukhari has been found just to study the chains and not the matn of the hadeeth, especially in the light of Qur'an I naturally think it's someone who has been living in his age to see how he went with his studies, or in his students age to have talked to them, or have his methodology all studied and found errors. Who is it? What is his work?

My brother, I ensure you I'm not trying to pest or insult you in any way, but matters of deen are sensitive. Please understand, if some of us try to "dig in" a lil deeper and see who we take our deen from. Your simple mention of "different opinions" is not enough. If you are the only one to have arrived at these opinions, I say take them to a learnt scholar and he'll get tens of errors out and satisfy you, if not hundreds.
if you think any one who disagrees you are ill informed without considering about what is said, i would say it is not a right way to reach the truth.
Without considering what is said? My respected brother Mezeren, if that is what you have arrived at, this will be my last post to you.

I have not studied under a muhaddith but i read books which are written by different scholars. No need to name names.
I'll refrain from asking. I guess you believe Al-Bukhari is sufficient for us then.

Sister, i would like you to think about the hadith and verses that i will write below. Then tell me if you think something is wrong.

Sahih Bukhari,Volume 2, Book 23, Number 452 :

Narrated by Ibn 'Umar


"The Prophet looked at the people of the well (the well in which the bodies of the pagans killed in the Battle of badr were thrown) and said, "Have you found true what your Lord promised you?" Somebody said to him, "You are addressing dead people." He replied, "You do not hear better than they but they cannot reply."


QURAN(27-NAML/80):

"Indeed, you will not make the dead hear, nor will you make the deaf hear the call when they have turned their backs retreating."

QURAN(30-RUM/52):

"So indeed, you will not make the dead hear, nor will you make the deaf hear the call when they turn their backs, retreating."

QURAN(6-EN'AM/36):

"Only those who hear will respond. But the dead - Allah will resurrect them; then to Him they will be returned."

QURAN(35-FATIR/22):

"And not equal are the living and the dead. Indeed, Allah causes to hear whom He wills, but you cannot make hear those in the graves."
I just found compatibility in them in the very first read Alhumdulillah. There is nothing in there that doesn't go hand in hand, if you but read the verses again. However, I'll refrain from citing my opinions since I'm not an authority.

I'll say post your questions here so that those who know, will inform you: The Holy Quran or Hadeeth Sciences & Islamic History
As you can see here, the narration contradics The Quranic verses. Which one is correct? Do the dead ones can here us or not? Please, let me know.
They don't (contradict, I mean). The dead can hear, when Allah wills it that they do. Read the verses you posted again please.

Do you believe that Muhammed(a.s.) would say such a thing that contradics Quran? Well, sister, i do not believe so and i think that something is wrong here.
Of course not! The Qur'an was revealed to him:saw:. Yes, we lack knowledge, this definitely is "terribly" wrong here.

Since I said it will be last reply to you. JazaakAllahu khayraa for having discussion while maintaining proper akhlaaq, may Allah increase you in beneficial knowledge and may Allah forgive us for our mistakes. Lastly, if it so happened that I've "bugged" you I'd like apologise.
 

mezeren

Junior Member
ditta;584902]As-salaamu'alaykum,

^ With that reasoning would you reject something that is not even mentioned explicitly in the Qur'aan but is clearly in the ahadith of the Prophet :saw:? That would include a lot of things off the top of my head
.

Who are we to reject the word of the Prophet of Allah? He is more beloved to muslims than their selves and their parents. You don't understand it, brother. A lot of narrations from those haidith books are not from the Prophet(a.s.). Either they are fabricated or through the chain of narration they lost their original massage or they were narrated by people who are not deep enough in knowledge to understand the meaning and distorted the meaning unintentionally, etc.

Obviously these scholars were not infallible but I think it is a great disservice if we do not recognise their strenuous efforts in preserving the Sunnah from Imam az-Zuhri (rahimahullah) onwards.

So, because they spent great effort, we shoul take everything they said? May Allah give them rewards according to their efforts, but that is irrelavent here.

Additionally, the Prophet :saw: was given certain signs that alluded to his Prophethood, for example knowledge of some unseen matters. Based on the reasoning you gave from what I understood, because the Qur'aan says only Allah has knowledge of the Unseen, what does that mean then?

Quran(6:50): "Say, [O Muhammad], "I do not tell you that I have the depositories [containing the provision] of Allah or that I know the unseen, nor do I tell you that I am an angel. I only follow what is revealed to me." Say, "Is the blind equivalent to the seeing? Then will you not give thought?"

Quran(7:188): "Say, "I hold not for myself [the power of] benefit or harm, except what Allah has willed. And if I knew the unseen, I could have acquired much wealth, and no harm would have touched me. I am not except a warner and a bringer of good tidings to a people who believe.""

Quran(3:179) : "Allah would not leave the believers in that [state] you are in [presently] until He separates the evil from the good. Nor would Allah reveal to you the unseen. But [instead], Allah chooses of His messengers whom He wills, so believe in Allah and His messengers. And if you believe and fear Him, then for you is a great reward."

Basiccaly, what Allah teaches regarding the unseen to His Prophet(a.s.) is in the quran, i beleive. All that prophecies attributed to Muhammed(a.s.) can be found in the books of christians and jews, even in almost every ancient belief systems. That is another topic to discuss, i think.

"He who obeys the Messenger, has indeed obeyed Allah...

(Qur'aan, 4: 80)

"And whatsoever the Messenger gives you, take it and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain (from it). And fear Allah..."

(Qur'aan, 59: 7)

Absolutely agreed...

I recall reading an example of when a woman went to Abdullah ibn Mas'ood about him cursing the women who practice tattooing (and something else) but she responds by saying, "I have read the Qur'aan from cover to cover, and I have not found it." And he replies by quoting the above ayah (59: 7). I will try to post the full account, Insha'Allah.

Quran(4:119) : "And I will mislead them, and I will arouse in them [sinful] desires, and I will command them so they will slit the ears of cattle, and I will command them so they will change the creation of Allah ." And whoever takes Satan as an ally instead of Allah has certainly sustained a clear loss."




Quran(17:59) : "And nothing has prevented Us from sending signs except that the former peoples denied them. And We gave Thamud the she-camel as a visible sign, but they wronged her. And We send not the signs except as a warning."

Rasullulah's miracle is Quran. Such narrations portrays a prophet that can not be taken as an example, almost a mithical massanger. Muhammed(a.s.) was a human like us and set an example for everybody. The difference was that He(a.s.) took revelations from Allah. The image of a prophet with full of miracles can not be an example for ordinary humans. That is what pagans of Macca asked from the Prophet(a.s.) so that He(a.s.) could not be an example and they could live their life as they wish.
 

mezeren

Junior Member
Seeking Allah's Mercy;584911]I don't "form" any opinions about my deen, my brother. I'm not entitled to in this case. What ever the Qur'an and hadeeth say is my deen, and whichever way the salaf explained it, is my opinion. Unless you tell me what books to read and what writers, where do you expect me to search. All the books that I've read (a pretty small quantity, I must say) lack the "different opinion" you have brought forth. It will become very easy for the rest of us if you tell us about the authority who have noted this difference of opinion. If a gaint of Hadeeth like bukhari has been found just to study the chains and not the matn of the hadeeth, especially in the light of Qur'an I naturally think it's someone who has been living in his age to see how he went with his studies, or in his students age to have talked to them, or have his methodology all studied and found errors. Who is it? What is his work?

Sister, i read books of Turkish scholars, profs etc. who have knowledge on the past scholars and their books. i would give you turkish sources but it would not benefit you i believe. But i will give you a web site to examine. i am not saying that i accept everyting that is written there. it is not an excellently up to date site and the translation are made by a volunteer but it would give you a different view. it is " http://www.islamandquran.org/ ".



My brother, I ensure you I'm not trying to pest or insult you in any way, but matters of deen are sensitive. Please understand, if some of us try to "dig in" a lil deeper and see who we take our deen from. Your simple mention of "different opinions" is not enough. If you are the only one to have arrived at these opinions, I say take them to a learnt scholar and he'll get tens of errors out and satisfy you, if not hundreds.
Without considering what is said? My respected brother Mezeren, if that is what you have arrived at, this will be my last post to you.

Sister, i sincerely apologise to you for my wordings. Please forgive my English. The last thing i would want is to hurt you or any muslim. So, please do not get angry with me.

I'll refrain from asking. I guess you believe Al-Bukhari is sufficient for us then.

No, not a single book is sufficent for us except Quran. But we need books that criticise Sahih Bukhari as well as Sahih Bukhari. To reach the truth we need every kind of opinions.

I just found compatibility in them in the very first read Alhumdulillah. There is nothing in there that doesn't go hand in hand, if you but read the verses again. However, I'll refrain from citing my opinions since I'm not an authority.

I'll say post your questions here so that those who know, will inform you: The Holy Quran or Hadeeth Sciences & Islamic History
They don't (contradict, I mean). The dead can hear, when Allah wills it that they do. Read the verses you posted again please.

You are wrong sister. The dead can not hear. See what the mother of the Believers(r.a.) reacted when presented the narrations.

Sahih Bukhari,Volume 5, Book 59, Number 317

Narrated by Ibn Umar

"The Prophet stood at the well of badr (which contained the corpses of the pagans) and said, "Have you found true what your lord promised you?" Then he further said, "They now hear what I say." This was mentioned before 'Aisha and she said, "But the Prophet said, 'Now they know very well that what I used to tell them was the truth.' Then she recited (the Holy Verse):-- "You cannot make the dead hear... till the end of Verse)." (30.52)"

if the dead could here what would you tell the sufies that beleive their dead saints could here them and help them. "The dead can hear, when Allah wills it that they do". This reasoning they use all the time. So , please never use this reasoning. if Allah wills, He put satan in the heaven and Rasullallah in the hell, estagfirullah.


Of course not! The Qur'an was revealed to him:saw:. Yes, we lack knowledge, this definitely is "terribly" wrong here.

Since I said it will be last reply to you. JazaakAllahu khayraa for having discussion while maintaining proper akhlaaq, may Allah increase you in beneficial knowledge and may Allah forgive us for our mistakes. Lastly, if it so happened that I've "bugged" you I'd like apologise.


By no means you "bugged" me and there is nothing to apologize. As i said before i do apologize to you for my wordings.
 

ditta

Alhamdu'Lillaah
Staff member
As-salaamu'alaykum,
I was speaking generally in the first post. Regarding the issue that you posted about the dead hearing and the Prophet :saw: addressing the dead at Badr, Allah knows best. However, I am not sure but this could be an issue where there is a difference of opinion (of whether the dead can hear), check here and here. There is a portion regarding this in the Minor Resurrection as well which I will try to post, Insha'Allah. "(Edit: posted below)"

In Tafsir ibn Kathir:

Allah says, `just as you are not able to make the dead hear in their graves, or to make your words reach the deaf who cannot hear and who still turn away from you, so too you cannot guide the blind to the truth and bring them back from their misguidance.' That is a matter which rests with Allah, for by His power He can make the dead hear the voices of the living if He wills. He guides whom He wills and sends astray whom He wills, and no one but He has the power to do this. Allah says:

(you can make to hear only those who believe in Our Ayat, and have submitted (to Allah in Islam).)

- means, those who are humble and who respond and obey. These are the ones who will listen to the truth and follow it; this is the state of the believers; the former (being deaf and blind) is the state of the disbelievers, as Allah says:

(It is only those who listen will respond, but as for the dead, Allah will raise them up, then to Him they will be returned.) (6:36) `A'ishah, the Mother of the faithful, may Allah be pleased with her, used this Ayah --

(So verily, you cannot make the dead to hear)

- as evidence against `Abdullah bin `Umar when he reported that the Prophet had addressed the slain disbelievers who had been thrown into a dry well three days after the battle of Badr, rebuking and reprimanding them, until `Umar said, "O Messenger of Allah, are you addressing people who are dead bodies'' He said:

(By the One in Whose Hand is my soul, you do not hear what I say any better than they do, but they cannot respond.)

A'ishah interpreted this event to mean that the Prophet was making the point that now they would know that what he had been telling them was true. Qatadah said: "Allah brought them back to life for him so that they could hear what he said by way of rebuke and vengeance.''

Regarding the other points then maybe brother you should read the Sunnah's rank with the Qur'aan (I will post something which I read in this regard, Insha'Allah). I think your wrong in the assertion below:

Such narrations portrays a prophet that can not be taken as an example, almost a mithical massanger. Muhammed(a.s.) was a human like us and set an example for everybody. The difference was that He(a.s.) took revelations from Allah. The image of a prophet with full of miracles can not be an example for ordinary humans. That is what pagans of Macca asked from the Prophet(a.s.) so that He(a.s.) could not be an example and they could live their life as they wish.

If you read the thread you will see how the miracles that were given to the Prophet's was so that there was no shadow of a doubt regarding their truthfulness to the people and especially for those that came after the Prophet (although we did not see them, and I could be wrong in this assertion, the Signs of the Hour point to the Prophet's truthfulness for us to see, in the sense that the Qur'aan mentions that some portents have already come although the authentic hadiths expand on this and provide us with more information about those that are happening or have yet to occur. This not only strengthens our belief but attests to the truthfulness of the Prophet :saw:. From your reasoning it appears that if something that is mentioned in the Sunnah (legislative) although is not mentioned in the Qur'aan, cannot be used, have I correctly understood?

As this is the case, then Allah has to establish clear signs, evidence and proof to confirm that the claim of the Messengers to be the Messengers of Allah is true, in order that proof may be established against the people, so that no one will have any excuse for not believing in them and obeying them.

Indeed We have sent Our Messengers with clear proofs...

(Qur'aan 57: 25)

- i.e., with evidence and clear signs which will demonstrate that they are telling the truth.

The word aayah (translated here as a 'sign') in Arabic means a sign which indicates something. What is meant here is something extraordinary which Allah (subhaanahu wa ta’aala) causes to happen at the hands of His Messengers and Prophets, something the like of which human beings are unable to reproduce, such as turning a stick into a snake which moves quickly. These extraordinary signs which cannot be denied or rejected indicate that they are telling the truth in conveying the message they bring.
Al-‘Allaamah as-Sa‘di (may Allah have mercy on him) said:

The difference between the mu‘jizah and karaamah, and devilish extraordinary things that happen at the hands of magicians and charlatans is as follows:

The mu‘jizah is that which Allah causes to happen at the hands of the Messengers and Prophets of extraordinary events with which they challenge the people, so that they will believe in the message with which Allah sent them and by means of which He supported them, such as the splitting of the moon and the sending down of the Qur’aan, which is the greatest mu‘jizah ever bestowed upon a Messenger, as well as the grieving of the palm tree stump (which the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) used as a minbar until a minbar was built for him), the springing up of water from between his fingers, and many other miracles.
 

ditta

Alhamdu'Lillaah
Staff member
Here is the portion from The Minor Resurrection:

It is narrated in the saheeh ahaadeeth that the deceased can hear the sound of the companions footsteps after they have put him in his grave. It is narrated from Anas ibn Malik that the Messenger of Allah :saw: said:

“When a person is placed in his grave and his companions depart from him, he surely hears the sound of their footsteps.”

(Muslim, Kitaab al-Jannah, Baab ‘ard maq’ad al-mayit fil-Jannah aw an-Naar ‘alayhi, 4/2203, hadith no. 2874)

Three days after the battle of Badr, the Messenger :Saw: stood over the mushrikeen who had been killed at the battle and addressed some of them by name.

He said,

“O Abu Jahl ibn Hishaam, O’ Umayyah ibn Khalaf, O’ Utbah ibn Rabee’ah, O’ Shaybah ibn Rabee’ah, have you not found what your Lord promised me to be true.”

Umar ibn al-Khattab said:

“O Messenger of Allah, how could they hear, how could they respond when they are rotting corpses?”

He said,

“By the One in Whose hand is my soul, you do not hear what I say any better than they do, but they cannot reply.”

Then he commanded that they be dragged away and thrown into the well of Badr.

(Bukharee in Kitaab al-Janaa’iz, Baab ma jaa’ fi ‘adhaab al-qabr. Also in Kitaab al-Jannah, Baab ‘ard maq’ad al-mayit fil-Jannah aw an-Naar ‘alayhi. 4/2200, hadith no. 2870. Also Abu Dawood and Nasaa’i; see Jaami’ al-Usool. 11/180)

Ibn Taymiyyah quoted a number of ahaadeeth which indicate that the dead can hear, then he said:

“These and similar texts show that the dead can hear the speech of the living in general, but it does not mean that they can hear them all the time. They may hear at some times and not at others, as is the case with the living, who sometimes hears what is being said to him, and sometimes he does not hear it for some reason.”

(Majmoo al-Fatawaa, 5/364)

Ibn Taymiyyah dealt with the issue raised by the one who said,

“Allah has stated that the dead do not hear, when He said:


“Verily, you cannot make the dead to hear...”

(Qur’aan, 27: 80)

- so how can you claim that the dead can hear.”

Ibn Taymiyyah said:


“That is the hearing of comprehension, which does not lead to reward or punishment; it is not the hearing referred to in the aayah (Verily you cannot make the dead to hear...).


What is meant in this verse is the hearing of acceptance, when one hears and obeys. Allah likened the kaafir to the dead who does not respond to the one who calls him, and to the animals who hear the voice but do not understand the meaning. Although the dead can hear the speech and understand the meaning, they cannot respond to the one who is calling them and they cannot heed the commands or prohibitions, so they do not benefit from them. Similarly, the kaafir does not benefit from the commands and prohibitions, even though he hears what is said and understands the meanings. Allah says:

“Had Allah known of any good in them, He would indeed have made them listen...”

(Qur’aan, 8: 23)

There are also texts which indicate the dead speaks along with the hearing. The Munkar and Nakeer question the deceased, and the believer is helped to answer correctly, whilst the kaafir and hypocrite are prevented from giving the right answers. The dead may also speak at other times apart from questioning of Munkar and Nakeer. All of that is different from speech as it is known to the people of this world, for what is questioned and what responds is the soul. It is the soul which answers, sits up and is blessed or tormented, although it is connected in some way to the body. We have mentioned above that some people have heard the speech of the dead, and that the Messenger used to hear that a great deal.
 

mezeren

Junior Member
As-salaamu'alaykum,
I was speaking generally in the first post. Regarding the issue that you posted about the dead hearing and the Prophet :saw: addressing the dead at Badr, Allah knows best. However, I am not sure but this could be an issue where there is a difference of opinion (of whether the dead can hear), check here and here. There is a portion regarding this in the Minor Resurrection as well which I will try to post, Insha'Allah.

Wa Alaykum Salam Brother,

Yes, brother, Allah knows best. And He states clearly that the dead can not hear. it can not be an issue of dispute. The reason that there are different opinions on the matter is that because they have given the hadith books a status equal to Quran and they tried to save the narrations despite clear verses from Quran. it is like sufies believes everything from their shaiks, so called saints that even though there are clear verses against their beliefs they still obey their so called saints. if you believe that the dead can hear, how would you refuse the fabricated hadi,th of sufies that says when you are in trouble ask help from the dead ones.

i have read in a book that there are about 25 hadith from Aisha(r.a.) similar to the one that i stated where She(r.a.) refuted the narrations claiming to be from the Prophet(a.s.) and corrected them with verses from Quran. Why don't you search for them and try to understand what i am trying to say. They are in the same books that we are talking about.





Regarding the other points then maybe brother you should read the Sunnah's rank with the Qur'aan (I will post something which I read in this regard, Insha'Allah). I think your wrong in the assertion below:

And , to prove your point you will quote the same books we are discussing which is not an acceptable argument. Rasullalah(a.s.) was responsible as much as we are to obey Allah and by no means He has the right to contradict Quran, and he never did. He was walking Quran.


If you read the thread you will see how the miracles that were given to the Prophet's was so that there was no shadow of a doubt regarding their truthfulness to the people and especially for those that came after the Prophet (although we did not see them, and I could be wrong in this assertion, the Signs of the Hour point to the Prophet's truthfulness for us to see, in the sense that the Qur'aan mentions that some portents have already come although the authentic hadiths expand on this and provide us with more information about those that are happening or have yet to occur. This not only strengthens our belief but attests to the truthfulness of the Prophet :saw:. From your reasoning it appears that if something that is mentioned in the Sunnah (legislative) although is not mentioned in the Qur'aan, cannot be used, have I correctly understood?

From my understanding, if He(a.s.) said something about the religion then it has a root in the Quran. He was given Quran and Hikmah. it is our scholars duty to seek and find the connection. But when we see something clearly contradics Quran they must be understood in the historical, scientific context etc. to understand it (as in the issue of the punishment regarding the fornication. Basically, he acted according to old tastement before Allah revealed the verses regarding the matter) or we reject them (as in the case of the dead hearing us).
 

mezeren

Junior Member
Here is the portion from The Minor Resurrection:

Sahih Bukhari,Volume 5, Book 59, Number 317

Narrated by Ibn Umar

"The Prophet stood at the well of badr (which contained the corpses of the pagans) and said, "Have you found true what your lord promised you?" Then he further said, "They now hear what I say." This was mentioned before 'Aisha and she said, "But the Prophet said, 'Now they know very well that what I used to tell them was the truth.' Then she recited (the Holy Verse):-- "You cannot make the dead hear... till the end of Verse)." (30.52)"
 

ditta

Alhamdu'Lillaah
Staff member
Brother instead of posting the same hadith again you should refer to the links that discuss this although I appreciate from what I have read this could be something that is disputed although that doesn't discount the explanation given in my previous post which you seem to have glossed over. I will add it below again. Also, it might be worthwhile exploring further there.

Ibn Taymiyyah dealt with the issue raised by the one who said,

“Allah has stated that the dead do not hear, when He said:


“Verily, you cannot make the dead to hear...”

(Qur’aan, 27: 80)

- so how can you claim that the dead can hear.”

Ibn Taymiyyah said:


“That is the hearing of comprehension, which does not lead to reward or punishment; it is not the hearing referred to in the aayah (Verily you cannot make the dead to hear...).


What is meant in this verse is the hearing of acceptance, when one hears and obeys. Allah likened the kaafir to the dead who does not respond to the one who calls him, and to the animals who hear the voice but do not understand the meaning. Although the dead can hear the speech and understand the meaning, they cannot respond to the one who is calling them and they cannot heed the commands or prohibitions, so they do not benefit from them. Similarly, the kaafir does not benefit from the commands and prohibitions, even though he hears what is said and understands the meanings. Allah says:

“Had Allah known of any good in them, He would indeed have made them listen...”

(Qur’aan, 8: 23)

There are also texts which indicate the dead speaks along with the hearing. The Munkar and Nakeer question the deceased, and the believer is helped to answer correctly, whilst the kaafir and hypocrite are prevented from giving the right answers. The dead may also speak at other times apart from questioning of Munkar and Nakeer. All of that is different from speech as it is known to the people of this world, for what is questioned and what responds is the soul. It is the soul which answers, sits up and is blessed or tormented, although it is connected in some way to the body. We have mentioned above that some people have heard the speech of the dead, and that the Messenger used to hear that a great deal.

What you said in the final part of your post shows lack of knowledge in hadith criticism and status of the Sunnah from my understanding. I will Insha'Allah post two portions, a) Imam ash-Sha'fiee and an opponent who denied the legislative authority of hadiths (I don't know if you completely deny them or just the one's that don't have a root in the Qur'aan, it seems to be the latter) and b) the discussion with how the Sunnah ranks with the Qur'aan (which covers how a text may confirm a ruling in the Qur'aan, a text that may clarify a ruling of the Qur'aan or a text that establishes a ruling that the Qur'aan does not speak of). That will be my final contribution in this thread as my knowledge is limited.

Wa-alaykum-us-salaam.

Sahih Bukhari,Volume 5, Book 59, Number 317

Narrated by Ibn Umar

"The Prophet stood at the well of badr (which contained the corpses of the pagans) and said, "Have you found true what your lord promised you?" Then he further said, "They now hear what I say." This was mentioned before 'Aisha and she said, "But the Prophet said, 'Now they know very well that what I used to tell them was the truth.' Then she recited (the Holy Verse):-- "You cannot make the dead hear... till the end of Verse)." (30.52)"
 

mezeren

Junior Member
Brother instead of posting the same hadith again you should refer to the links that discuss this although I appreciate from what I have read this could be something that is disputed although that doesn't discount the explanation given in my previous post which you seem to have glossed over. I will add it below again. Also, it might be worthwhile exploring further there.

Assalamun Alaykum,

Brother, you are right, no need to post the same narration, because there are so many examples of the contradictions in those books, but it was sort of a quick reply. i will give you more examples, inshaallah.



What you said in the final part of your post shows lack of knowledge in hadith criticism and status of the Sunnah from my understanding.

You are right, and i do not claim to be an expert on the matter. But, i think i know enough to have an opinion.


I will Insha'Allah post two portions, a) Imam ash-Sha'fiee and an opponent who denied the legislative authority of hadiths (I don't know if you completely deny them or just the one's that don't have a root in the Qur'aan, it seems to be the latter)

And you are right, again. Without the guidence of Quran, we can not reach the truth.

and b) the discussion with how the Sunnah ranks with the Qur'aan (which covers how a text may confirm a ruling in the Qur'aan, a text that may clarify a ruling of the Qur'aan or a text that establishes a ruling that the Qur'aan does not speak of). That will be my final contribution in this thread as my knowledge is limited.

Wa-alaykum-us-salaam.

The belief that "narrations"(not sunnah) is similar or equal to Quran is the root of the problem. And that belief suggest that sunnah could abrogate Quran which is a great mistake.Every narrations, ideas etc. must be judged by Quran.

i have difficulties in finding English sources about the matter. i would like to mantion about the book of Abu Haneefah "Al-'Àlim wal-Muta'allim ("The Teacher and the Apprentice")". i couldn't find it in English. if you find the part that i will explain i would be greateful. it is when he was asked what was his position regarding the hadith;

"Narrated AbuHurayrah: The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: When a man commits fornication, faith departs from him and there is something like a canvas roof over his head; and when he quits that action, faith returns to him. " (Abu Davud, Sunnah).

Basicaly, he said; "Rejecting some one who narrates something against Quran is not rejecting Rasulallah(a.s.)."

Now, let me give you more examples of the contradictions between some narrations:

Abu Dharr reported: The Messanger of Allah (may peace be upon him) Said: When any one of you stands for prayer and there is a thing before him equal to the back of the saddle that covers him and in case there is not before him (a thing) equal to the back of the saddle, his prayer would be cut off by (passing of an) ass, woman, and black dog. I said: O Abu Dharr, what feature is there in a black dog which distinguish it from the red dog and the yellow dog? He said: O, son of my brother, I asked the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) as you are asking me, and he said: The black dog is a devil. (Sahih Muslim, Book 004, Number 1032)

Abu Huraira reported: The Messanger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: a woman, an ass and a dog distrapt the prayer, but something like the back of a saddle guards against that. (Sahih Muslim, Book 004, Number 1034)

'Urwa b. Zubair reported: 'A'isha asked: What disrupts the prayer? We said: the woman and the ass. Upon this she remarked: IS THE WOMAN AN UGLY ANIMAL? I lay in front of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) like the bier of a corpse and he said prayer. (Sahih Muslim, Book 004, Number 1037)

* Narrated 'Aisha: Do you make us (women) equal to dogs and donkeys? While I used to lie in my bed, the Prophet would come and pray facing the middle of the bed. I used to consider it not good to stand in front of him in his prayers. So I used to slip away slowly and quietly from the foot of the bed till I got out of my guilt. (Sahih Bukhari)


OK, which one of the narrations should we choose from above?

Another example:

It is narrated on the authority of Ibn 'Abbas that he (the Holy Prophet) saw (Allah) with, his heart. (Sahih Muslim, Book 001, Number 0334)

It is narrated on the authority of Ibn Abbas that the words: "The heart belied not what he saw" (al-Qur'an, Iiii. 11) and "Certainly he saw Him in another descent" (al-Qur'an, Iiii. 13) imply that he saw him twice with his heart. (Sahih Muslim, Book 001, Number 0335)

Narrated AbdurRahman ibn A'ish Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) said: I saw my Lord, the Exalted and Glorious in the most beautiful form. He said: What do the Angels in the presence of Allah contend about? I said: Thou art the most aware of it. He then placed HIS PALM between my shoulders and I felt its coldness in my chest and I came to know what was in the Heavens and the Earth. He recited: `Thus did we show Ibrahim the kingdom of the Heavens and the Earth and it was so that he might have certainty.' (6:75) Darimi reported it in a mursal form and Tirmidhi also reported. (Tirmidhi Hadith, Number 237)


How on earth can we believe them? But, i can believe the next one;

I said to 'Aisha, "O Mother! Did Prophet Muhammad see his Lord?" Aisha said, "What you have said makes my hair stand on end! Know that if somebody tells you one of the following three things, he is a liar: Whoever tells you that Muhammad saw his Lord, is a liar." Then Aisha recited the Verse:

'No vision can grasp Him, but His grasp is over all vision. He is the Most Courteous Well-Acquainted with all things.' (6.103) 'It is not fitting for a human being that Allah should speak to him except by inspiration or from behind a veil.' (42.51) 'Aisha further said, "And whoever tells you that the Prophet knows what is going to happen tomorrow, is a liar." She then recited:

'No soul can know what it will earn tomorrow.' (31.34) She added: "And whoever tells you that he concealed (some of Allah's orders), is a liar." Then she recited: 'O Apostle! Proclaim (the Message) which has been sent down to you from your Lord…' (5.67)

'Aisha added. "But the Prophet saw Gabriel in his true form twice." (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60, Number 378)


'Aisha said, "If anyone tells you that Muhammad has seen his Lord, he is a liar, for Allah says: 'No vision can grasp Him.' (6.103) And if anyone tells you that Muhammad has seen the Unseen, he is a liar, for Allah says: ‘None has the knowledge of the Unseen but Allah.’" (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 93, Number 477)
 

ditta

Alhamdu'Lillaah
Staff member
OK, which one of the narrations should we choose from above?

Another example:

It is narrated on the authority of Ibn 'Abbas that he (the Holy Prophet) saw (Allah) with, his heart. (Sahih Muslim, Book 001, Number 0334)

It is narrated on the authority of Ibn Abbas that the words: "The heart belied not what he saw" (al-Qur'an, Iiii. 11) and "Certainly he saw Him in another descent" (al-Qur'an, Iiii. 13) imply that he saw him twice with his heart. (Sahih Muslim, Book 001, Number 0335)

Narrated AbdurRahman ibn A'ish Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) said: I saw my Lord, the Exalted and Glorious in the most beautiful form. He said: What do the Angels in the presence of Allah contend about? I said: Thou art the most aware of it. He then placed HIS PALM between my shoulders and I felt its coldness in my chest and I came to know what was in the Heavens and the Earth. He recited: `Thus did we show Ibrahim the kingdom of the Heavens and the Earth and it was so that he might have certainty.' (6:75) Darimi reported it in a mursal form and Tirmidhi also reported. (Tirmidhi Hadith, Number 237)


How on earth can we believe them? But, i can believe the next one;

I said to 'Aisha, "O Mother! Did Prophet Muhammad see his Lord?" Aisha said, "What you have said makes my hair stand on end! Know that if somebody tells you one of the following three things, he is a liar: Whoever tells you that Muhammad saw his Lord, is a liar." Then Aisha recited the Verse:

'No vision can grasp Him, but His grasp is over all vision. He is the Most Courteous Well-Acquainted with all things.' (6.103) 'It is not fitting for a human being that Allah should speak to him except by inspiration or from behind a veil.' (42.51) 'Aisha further said, "And whoever tells you that the Prophet knows what is going to happen tomorrow, is a liar." She then recited:

'No soul can know what it will earn tomorrow.' (31.34) She added: "And whoever tells you that he concealed (some of Allah's orders), is a liar." Then she recited: 'O Apostle! Proclaim (the Message) which has been sent down to you from your Lord…' (5.67)

'Aisha added. "But the Prophet saw Gabriel in his true form twice." (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60, Number 378)


'Aisha said, "If anyone tells you that Muhammad has seen his Lord, he is a liar, for Allah says: 'No vision can grasp Him.' (6.103) And if anyone tells you that Muhammad has seen the Unseen, he is a liar, for Allah says: ‘None has the knowledge of the Unseen but Allah.’" (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 93, Number 477)

Wa-alaykum-us-salaam,

Brother I suggest you refer to this answer regarding the second portion that you posted:

Most of the Sahaabah were of the view that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) did not see Allaah with his eyes on the night of the Miraaj.

It was narrated that ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) said: “Whoever told you that Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) saw his Lord was lying. He said that no vision can grasp him [cf. al-An’aam 6:103]…”
(Narrated by al-Bukhaari, al-Tawheed, 6832).

It was narrated that Abu Dharr said: “I asked the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), ‘Did you see your Lord?’ He said, ‘ He is veiled by Light, how could I see Him.’” (Narrated by Muslim, al-Eeman, 261).

It was narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaas said: “ ‘The (Prophet’s) heart belied not what he saw, and indeed he saw Him at a second descent.’ [al-Najm 53:11-12] (This means that) he saw Him twice with his heart.” (Narrated by Muslim, al-Eemaan, 258).

Ibn al-Qayyim said: “ ‘Uthmaan ibn Sa’eed al-Daarimi said in his book al-Ru’yah that there was consensus among the Sahaabah that he [the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)] did not see his Lord on the night of the Mi’raaj. Some of them excluded Ibn ‘Abbaas and said that he was not one of those who said that. Our Shaykh says that this does not go against the facts, for Ibn ‘Abbaas did not say that he saw Him with the eyes in his head, and Ahmad relied upon this in one of the two reports narrated from him, where he says that he saw Him but he did not say that that was with the eyes in his head. The wording used by Ahmad is the same as that used by Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with them both). What indicates that what our Shaykh said about the meaning of the hadeeth of Abu Dharr is correct is the fact that in another hadeeth he said that His veil is Light. And Allaah knows best what the Light is that is mentioned in the hadeeth of Abu Dharr (may Allaah be pleased with him) where it says, ‘I saw Light.’”

Ijtimaa’ al-Juyoosh al-Islamiyyah, vol. 1, p. 12

Shaykh al-Islam (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: “Chapter: with regard to seeing Allaah, what was proven in al-Saheeh from Ibn ‘Abbaas is that he said: ‘Muhammad saw his Lord with his heart twice, and ‘Aa’ishah denied that he had seen Him. Some people reconciled these two reports by saying that ‘Aa’ishah denied that he saw Him with his eyes and Ibn ‘Abbaas affirmed that he saw Him with his heart. Some versions of the report narrated from Ibn ‘Abbaas refers to seeing without specifying how, and others indicate that it was with the heart. Sometimes he says that Muhammad saw his Lord, and sometimes he says that Muhammad saw Him. There is no clear statement from Ibn ‘Abbaas which says that he saw Him with his eyes. Similarly Imaam Ahmad sometimes says that he saw Him and sometimes says that he saw Him with his heart. No one whom Ahmad heard said that he saw Him with his eyes. But some of his companions heard some of the words that did not specify how, and understood from that that he had seen Him with his eyes, just as some people heard the words of Ibn ‘Abbaas that did not specify how, and understood from that that he had seen Him with his eyes. But there is nothing in the evidence to prove that he saw Him with his eyes, and that was not narrated from any of the Sahaabah. There is nothing in the Qur’aan or Sunnah to indicate that, rather the saheeh texts which indicate that he did not see Him are more definitive. In Saheeh Muslim it is narrated that Abu Dharr said: ‘I asked the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), “Did you see your Lord?” He said, “He is veiled with Light, how could I see Him?”’ And Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

‘Glorified (and Exalted) be He (Allaah) [above all that (evil) they associate with Him]
Who took His slave (Muhammad) for a journey by night from Al-Masjid Al-Haraam (at Makkah) to Al-Masjid Al-Aqsaa (in Jerusalem), the neighbourhood whereof We have blessed, in order that We might show him (Muhammad) of Our Ayaat (proofs, evidences, lessons, signs, etc.)’

[al-Isra’ 17:1]

If he had seen Him with his own eyes, that He would have mentioned that. The same applies to the words “Will you then dispute with him (Muhammad) about what he saw [during the Mi’raaj]?” [al-Najm 53:12 – interpretation of the meaning]. If he had seen Him with his own eyes, that would have been mentioned.
It is proven from the saheeh texts and from the consensus of the salaf (first generations) of this ummah that no one can see Allaah with his eyes in this world, with the exception of the claim made by some that our Prophet Muhammad alone saw Him. But they are agreed that the believers will see Allaah on the Day of Resurrection with their own eyes just as they see the sun and the moon (in this world).”
And Allaah knows best.

Majmoo’ al-Fataawa, vol. 6, p. 509-510.


http://islamqa.info/en/ref/12423/

And the portion below although question was in reference to another issue it does not take away from the fact that the Prophet :saw: was given knowledge of certain aspects of the Unseen which he informed us about although that doesn't mean He knew with regards to issues that only Allah knows about. Like the time of the Hour is only known to Allah but some of the signs of the Hour the Prophet :saw: informed us about:

Al-Bukhaari narrated in his Saheeh (hadeeth no. 4477) that ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) said: “Whoever tells you that he knows what will happen tomorrow is lying.” Then she recited, “No person knows what he will earn tomorrow.”

But with regard to this matter it is important to know what is the unseen the knowledge of which Allaah has kept to Himself, because al-ghayb (the unseen) means that which is not seen, and that which is not seen may be either that which is not seen by all of creation – both those who are in the heavens and those who are on earth – this kind of unseen is known to no one but Allaah, and this is that which is called al-ghayb al-mutlaq (the unseen in the absolute sense); or this unseen matter may be unseen for some people, and known to some others. This is called unseen for the one who is ignorant of it, but it is not unseen or unknown to all people, and knowledge of it is not unique to Allaah. Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen (may Allaah have mercy on him) said in Sharh al-‘Aqeedah al-Waasitiyyah (p. 158): What is meant by the unseen is that which is not seen. The unseen is something relative. But that which is unseen in the absolute sense (al-ghyab al-mutlaq) is known only to Allaah. End quote.

http://islamqa.info/en/ref/101968/


Brother you missed out these hadiths where A'ishah affirms that the verses you quoted refer to Jibreel, and the above

Ash-Shaibani said:

"I asked Zirr bin Hubaish about the saying of Allah:

And was at a distance of two bows length or (even) nearer.

(Qur'an, 53: 9)

He said: 'Ibn Mas'ood told me that the Prophet :saw: saw Jibril, with six hundred wings.'"

It was narrated that Abdullah (about the verse): Indeed he (Muhammad :saw: ) did seek of the greatest signs of his Lord (Allah).

(Qur'an, 53: 18)

He said:

"He saw Jibril in his (true) form with six hundred wings."


It was narrated from Abu Hurayrah (about the verse):

"And indeed he saw him at a second descent."

(Qur'an, 53: 13)

He said:

"He saw Jibril."

It was narrated that Ibn Abbas said:

"He the Prophet :saw: saw Him with his heart."

(Saheeh Muslim, Book of Faith Volume 1)

It is narrated on the authority of Masruq that he said:

I was resting at (the house of) 'A'isha that she said: O Abu 'A'isha (kunya of Masruq), there are three things, and he who affirmed even one of them fabricated the greatest lie against Allah. I asked that they were. She said: He who presumed that Muhammad (may peace be upon him) saw his Lord (with his ocular vision) fabricated the greatest lie against Allah. I was reclining but then sat up and said: Mother of the Faithful, wait a bit and do not be in a haste. Has not Allah (Mighty and Majestic) said:

"And truly he saw him on the clear horizon" (al-Qur'an, l*!*!*!i. 23)

- and:

" he saw Him in another descent"

(al-Qur'an, iiii. 13)

She said: I am the first of this Ummah who asked the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) about it, and he said: Verily he is Gabriel. I have never seen him in his original form in which he was created except on those two occasions (to which these verses refer) ; I saw him descending from the heaven and filling (the space) from the sky to the earth with the greatness of his bodily structure. She said: Have you not heard Allah saying.

" Eyes comprehend Him not, but He comprehends (all) vision. and He is Subtle, and All-Aware" (al-Qur'an, v. 104)?

(She, i. e. 'A'isha, further said)......

Masruq reported:

I said to 'A'isha: What about the words of Allah:" Then he drew nigh and came down, so he was at a distance of two bows or closer still: so He revealed to His servant what He revealed" (al-Qur'an, liii. 8-10)? She said: It implies Gabriel. He used to come to him (the Holy Prophet) in the shape of men; but he came at this time in his true form and blocked up the horizon of the sky.

Regarding the first portion I will refrain from commenting because of my lack of knowledge. I recommend you refer to the two thread's that I mentioned which have been posted as it addresses this point of the authentic narrations legislating independently (I will see if I find anything in relation what you mentioned about Imam Abu Haneefah but sadly I do not know Arabic, and it appears from the examples you mentioned the issue comes back to a lack of knowledge of the Arabic language due to the explanation given to what you mentioned. (If you do know Arabic, then forgive me for being presumptuous).
 

mezeren

Junior Member
Wa-alaykum-us-salaam,

Brother you missed out these hadiths where A'ishah affirms that the verses you quoted refer to Jibreel, and the above

i think you have missed that part from my post because i wrote;

'Aisha added. "But the Prophet saw Gabriel in his true form twice." (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60, Number 378)

The thing is there are two opposite narrations regarding the same matter. instead of choosing the correct one scholars tried to find an excuse for the one that contradics Quran. Could you tell me what "seeing Allah with hearth" means? There is not such a thing. if you open a door for such belief, you can not stop people from abusing it. i am sure you know how sufies claim to see Allah with their hearth, talk to Him and get revelations etc.




Regarding the first portion I will refrain from commenting because of my lack of knowledge. I recommend you refer to the two thread's that I mentioned which have been posted as it addresses this point of the authentic narrations legislating independently (I will see if I find anything in relation what you mentioned about Imam Abu Haneefah but sadly I do not know Arabic, and it appears from the examples you mentioned the issue comes back to a lack of knowledge of the Arabic language due to the explanation given to what you mentioned. (If you do know Arabic, then forgive me for being presumptuous).


Unfortunataly, i do not know arabic and my English is not sufficent to translate that part of the book of Abu Haneefah. But it is a very good reading about this matter.
i will tell you how i feel about hadith books. Please, do not get me wrong. it is just a similitude. i think they are like the Bible or Torah of to day which were altered from their original form. They contains rights and wrongs and we need to turn to Quran to sort them out. We need to act like Aisha(r.a.), Omar(r.a.) etc.
 

ditta

Alhamdu'Lillaah
Staff member
i think you have missed that part from my post because i wrote;

'Aisha added. "But the Prophet saw Gabriel in his true form twice." (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60, Number 378)

The thing is there are two opposite narrations regarding the same matter. instead of choosing the correct one scholars tried to find an excuse for the one that contradics Quran. Could you tell me what "seeing Allah with hearth" means? There is not such a thing. if you open a door for such belief, you can not stop people from abusing it. i am sure you know how sufies claim to see Allah with their hearth, talk to Him and get revelations etc.

The difference is what Ibn Abbas said in his statement while we know that the Prophet
saws.gif
said regarding that "He is veiled with Light, how could I see Him?”’. I'm not disputing this by the way. The portion below is relevant.


Is there no denunciation with regard to matters concerning which the scholars differed?


This principle which some people speak of, that “there is no denunciation with regard to matters concerning which the scholars differed,” is not correct, and the correct view is that “there is no denunciation with regard to matters that are subject to ijtihaad.” To explain that, we have to know that the matters concerning which the scholars differed are of two types.

.................................................. ..................

2 – The second type of issue is that for which there is no clear evidence on the ruling in the Qur’aan, Sunnah, scholarly consensus or clear analogy.

Or there is evidence for the ruling in the Sunnah, but there is some dispute as to whether it is saheeh, or it does not clearly define the ruling, rather it is subject to different interpretations.

Or there are texts concerning it which appear to contradict one another.

These issues require a kind of ijtihaad and study in order to find out the ruling. Examples of this kind of issue include the following:

1. The difference of opinion as to whether the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) saw his Lord in this world.

2. The difference of opinion as to whether the dead can hear the words of the living.

3. Whether wudoo’ is invalidated by touching one's penis or touching a woman or eating camel meat.

4. Reciting Qunoot in Fajr every day.

5. Reciting Qunoot in Witr prayer – is it done before bowing or after?

In these and similar cases where there is no clear text to explain the ruling, the one who does something different is not to be denounced, so long as he is following one of the imams and thinks that his view is correct. But it is not permissible for anyone to follow the scholarly view that coincides with his whims and desires, because by doing that one may be combining all kinds of evil.

Not denouncing the one who acts differently in such cases does not mean that we should not examine or debate the matter and explain which view is more likely to be correct, based on the evidence. Rather the scholars, past and present, have held gatherings to debate and discuss such issues and the one who recognizes the truth must follow it.

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: With regard to matters of ijtihaad, they are not to be denounced by force, and no one has the right to force the people to follow him with regard to them, but he may speak of them on the basis of evidence. Whoever thinks that one of the two views is correct should follow it, and whoever follows those who favour the other view should not be denounced.

End quote from Majmoo’ al-Fataawa (30/80).


http://www.islamqa.com/en/ref/70491




Unfortunataly, i do not know arabic and my English is not sufficent to translate that part of the book of Abu Haneefah. But it is a very good reading about this matter.
i will tell you how i feel about hadith books. Please, do not get me wrong. it is just a similitude. i think they are like the Bible or Torah of to day which were altered from their original form. They contains rights and wrongs and we need to turn to Quran to sort them out. We need to act like Aisha(r.a.), Omar(r.a.) etc.

I do not believe this is correct. Rather excluding that upon which there is a difference of opinion/deduction, then what has been graded to be authentic of what the Prophet :saw: said is taken as a legislative authority (as I mentioned the authentic narrations clarify the Qur'an (Prayer, Zakaat, etc.), and establish that which has no root in the Qur'an. I will add the relevant portion but you should refer to the thread that discusses the legislative authority of the authentic narrations. This also shows lack of knowledge in the work of the hadith scholars to purify and authenticate the Sunnah from fabrications. I do not mean to sound patrionising. (Also, I do not know how well you understand English but that might be a factor and I do not mean to offend)

If I understand correctly you do not dispute this point but just those points wherein there appears to be a contradiction, however we both do not know the Arabic language to understand the intricacies/finer details. I think I will leave it that. I was disputing the issue of the authentic narrations taken as a independent legislative authority. Do you deny this?

The Proofs of those who say that the rulings of the third category are independently legislated

First, logically speaking, as long as the Messenger of Allah is protected from erring, there is nothing to prevent the Sunnah from establishing an independent legislation or ruling, and Allah may, according to what He wills, order His Messenger to convey His rulings to the people in any manner whatsoever, regardless of whether it is through the Qur’an or through any other means. As long as the mind accepts it as being plausible and as long as it has indeed occurred by the consensus of all scholars, then why should we not accept that view.

Second,
verses in the Qur’an which establish that it is compulsory to follow and obey the Messenger in his commands and prohibitions are general – they do not differentiate between the clarifying Sunnah, the corroborating Sunnah, and the independent Sunnah. In fact some verses of the Qur’an point to that independence, for example, Allah says:

O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger (Muhammad :saw: and those of you (Muslims) who are in authority. (And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger :)saw:, if you believe in Allah and in the Last Day...

(Qur’an, 4: 59)

Referring a matter to Allah means referring it to the Qur’an, and referring it to the Messenger means referring it to his Sunnah (after his death).

Allah says:

And obey Allah and the Messenger (Muhammad :saw: and beware (of even coming near to drinking or gambling or Al-Ansab, or Al-Azlam, etc.)...

(Qur’an 5: 92)

This verse, as well as other verses wherein obedience to the Messenger and obedience to Allah are coupled, indicates that it is compulsory to obey Allah in all that He commanded and forbade in the Qur’an. And obedience to the Messenger’s commands and prohibitions refers to that which is not in the Qur’an; had it been in the Qur’an, it would have been part of obedience to Allah (i.e., from the first part of the above mentioned verse).

Allah says:

...And let those who oppose the Messenger's (Muhammad :saw: commandment (i.e. his Sunnah legal ways, orders, acts of worship, statements, etc.) (among the sects) beware, lest some Fitnah (disbelief, trials, afflictions, earthquakes, killing, overpowered by a tyrant, etc.) befall them...

(Qur’an 24: 63)

This verse specifies the Messenger with matters that he is to be obeyed in, and that is the Sunnah which has been mentioned in the Qur’an.

Allah says:

...He who obeys the Messenger (Muhammad :saw: has indeed obeyed Allah...

(Qur’an, 4: 80)
...And whatsoever the Messenger (Muhammad :saw: gives you, take it, and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain (from it) , and fear Allah...

(Qur’an 59: 7)

But no, by your Lord, they can have no Faith, until they make you (O Muhammad :saw: judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions, and accept (them) with full submission.

(Qur’an 4: 65)


This verse was revealed regarding the Prophet’s ruling in favour of Zubayr in a dispute he had with an Ansari, and that ruling is not in Allah’s Book.

These are all proofs from the Book, showing that rulings from the Prophet may in fact be additions to the rulings of the Qur’an.

Third, there are many hadiths that show the Sharia to be made up of two sources together, the Qur’an and the Sunnah, and there is in the Sunnah that which is not in the Book. Just as we are required to accept rulings from the Book, we must also accept rulings from the Sunnah.

The Prophet said:

“The time draws near when one of you will say,

‘This is Allah’s Book; what is in it that is permissible we will consider to be permissible; what is in it that is forbidden we will consider to be forbidden.’
Indeed whoever receives a hadith from me and then disbelieves in it, then he has indeed refused to accept from Allah, His Messenger, and that which he :saw: related.”


(At-Tabarani in al-Awsat, from Jabir; and ibn Abdul-Barr related in Jami’ Bayan al-‘Ilm, 2/189)

Fourth, in the hadith of Mu’adh:

The Prophet asked,


“What will you rule by?”


He said,


“By Allah’s Book.”

The Prophet asked,

“And if you do not find (the ruling in Allah’s Book?”


Mu’adh said,

“By the Sunnah of the Messenger of Allah.”

This clearly shows that the Sunnah is that which is not in the Qur’an. This is represented by the saying of some scholars:

“The Qur’an has left a place for the Sunnah, and the Sunnah has left a place for the Qur’an.”
 

mezeren

Junior Member
ditta;585077

I was disputing the issue of the authentic narrations taken as a independent legislative authority. Do you deny this?


First of all, i believe we all agree that Allah is the one who is law-maker. And Muhammed(a.s.) was a human massanger and he lived his life as an example for muslims of past,today and future. While i believe the authentic narrations clarify the Qur'an (Prayer, Zakaat, etc.), i do not believe authentic narrations can be taken as an independent legislative authority. Otherwise, we would have much bigger problems that we would need unreasonable explanations to combine Quran And Sunnah. Such as verses being eaten by a goat etc.

A good example for this is the punishment for the adulturers wheter married or single. While there are clear verses of Quran we can not take narrations that contradict Quran. The below article sets a good example about how to take things in perspective. it is a long read but i post it anyway. i hope you read it full.

Taken from;
http://www.islamandquran.org/research/abrogation-and-punishment-of-stoning.html

Abrogation (Naskh) and Punishment of Stoning (Rajm)

Naskh, in its literal context, means the act of “bringing two things side by side, and transferring the text in one to the other”. Naskh is also “abrogating something, to be substituted by another.” This is the case wherein a provision in a verse is alleviated by another verse. This first verse is called the mansukh, and the later is the nasikh [1].

Accordingly, the act of a person transferring a text he/she has written, to another place is naskh. Such person removes part of that text, modifies another, and copies the exact wording of the most of the text. The second version abrogates and supersedes the first one. The last book of Allah is revealed so as to supersede the preceding ones. Allah did not transfer part of the provisions in previous books to His last Book, replaced part thereof with better orders, and literally transferred most of them as they are. Allah (SWT) commands:

شَرَعَ لَكُمْ مِنَ الدِّينِ مَا وَصَّى بِهِ نُوحًا وَالَّذِي أَوْحَيْنَا إِلَيْكَ وَمَا وَصَّيْنَا بِهِ إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَمُوسَى وَعِيسَى أَنْ أَقِيمُوا الدِّينَ وَلَا تَتَفَرَّقُوا فِيهِ.

“He has ordained for you that religion which He commended unto Noah, and that which We reveal to you (Muhammad), and that which We commended unto Abraham and Moses and Jesus, saying: Keep up the religion, and be not divided therein. ” (Ash-Shura/ Consultation 42:13)

There are new verses in Quran. These alleviated the provisions that existed in the previous scriptures. Allah (SWT) commands:

الَّذِينَ يَتَّبِعُونَ الرَّسُولَ النَّبِيَّ الْأُمِّيَّ الَّذِي يَجِدُونَهُ مَكْتُوبًا عِنْدَهُمْ فِي التَّوْرَاةِ وَالْإِنْجِيلِ يَأْمُرُهُمْ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ وَيَنْهَاهُمْ عَنِ الْمُنْكَرِ وَيُحِلُّ لَهُمُ الطَّيِّبَاتِ وَيُحَرِّمُ عَلَيْهِمُ الْخَبَائِثَ وَيَضَعُ عَنْهُمْ إِصْرَهُمْ وَالْأَغْلَالَ الَّتِي كَانَتْ عَلَيْهِمْ.
“Those who follow the messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write, whom they will find described in the Torah and the Gospel (which are) with them. He will enjoin on them that which is right and forbid them that which is wrong. He will make lawful for them all good things and forbids them only from the foul; and he will relieve them of their burden and the fetters that they used to wear.” (Al-A’raf/The Elevated Place 7:157)

There exists verses which, though were present in the previous books, were hidden from people and disremembered over time. Some of these were quoted in Qur’an, and some were not. This is the reason why some verses are not present in the Old and New Testament, though they exist in Qur’an. Allah (SWT) commands:

يَا أَهْلَ الْكِتَابِ قَدْ جَاءَكُمْ رَسُولُنَا يُبَيِّنُ لَكُمْ كَثِيرًا مِمَّا كُنْتُمْ تُخْفُونَ مِنَ الْكِتَابِ وَيَعْفُو عَنْ كَثِيرٍ قَدْ جَاءَكُمْ مِنَ اللَّهِ نُورٌ وَكِتَابٌ مُبِينٌ.
“O People of the Book[2]! Now has Our messenger come unto you, disclosing unto you much of that which you used to hide from the Book, and forgiving much. Now has come unto you light from Allah and a plain Book.” (Al-Ma’ida/ The Feast 5: 15)

There are additions made by people to the previous scriptures. We understand this from the following verse:

فَوَيْلٌ لِلَّذِينَ يَكْتُبُونَ الْكِتَابَ بِأَيْدِيهِمْ ثُمَّ يَقُولُونَ هَذَا مِنْ عِنْدِ اللَّهِ لِيَشْتَرُوا بِهِ ثَمَنًا قَلِيلًا فَوَيْلٌ لَهُمْ مِمَّا كَتَبَتْ أَيْدِيهِمْ وَوَيْلٌ لَهُمْ مِمَّا يَكْسِبُونَ.
“Therefore woe be unto those who write the Scripture with their hands and then say, ‘This is from Allah,’ that they may purchase a small gain therewith. Woe unto them for that their hands have written, and woe unto them for that they earn thereby! [3] (Al-Baqarah/ The Cow 2:79).

Such additions are not hard to be distinguished, since they distort the integrity. The People of Scripture (Ahl al-Kitab) should obey not to such additions, but to what Allah revealed to them. Allah (SWT) commands:

إِنَّا أَنْزَلْنَا التَّوْرَاةَ فِيهَا هُدًى وَنُورٌ يَحْكُمُ بِهَا النَّبِيُّونَ الَّذِينَ أَسْلَمُوا لِلَّذِينَ هَادُوا وَالرَّبَّانِيُّونَ وَالْأَحْبَارُ بِمَا اسْتُحْفِظُوا مِنْ كِتَابِ اللَّهِ وَكَانُوا عَلَيْهِ شُهَدَاءَ فَلَا تَخْشَوُا النَّاسَ وَاخْشَوْنِ وَلَا تَشْتَرُوا بِآَيَاتِي ثَمَنًا قَلِيلًا وَمَنْ لَمْ يَحْكُمْ بِمَا أَنْزَلَ اللَّهُ فَأُولَئِكَ هُمُ الْكَافِرُونَ.
“We did reveal the Torah, wherein is guidance and a light, by which the Prophets who submitted themselves (to Allah) judged the Jews, and the rabbis and the scholars (judged) by such of Allah’s Book as they were bidden to observe, and thereunto were they witnesses. So fear not mankind, but fear Me. And barter not My revelations for a little gain. Whoso judged not by that which Allah has revealed: such are concealers.” (Al-Ma’ida/ The Feast 5:44).

وَلْيَحْكُمْ أَهْلُ الْإِنْجِيلِ بِمَا أَنْزَلَ اللَّهُ فِيهِ وَمَنْ لَمْ يَحْكُمْ بِمَا أَنْزَلَ اللَّهُ فَأُولَئِكَ هُمُ الْفَاسِقُونَ.

“Let those who know the Gospel judge by that which Allah has revealed therein. Whoso judged not by that which Allah has revealed; such are sinners (fasiqun).” (Al-Ma’ida/ The Feast 5:47)

(…)

One should refer to Quran to detect the additions made to previous books. Because, it is the task of Quran to protect the truths in those books. Allah (SWT) commands:

وَأَنْزَلْنَا إِلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ بِالْحَقِّ مُصَدِّقًا لِمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ مِنَ الْكِتَابِ وَمُهَيْمِنًا عَلَيْهِ فَاحْكُمْ بَيْنَهُمْ بِمَا أَنْزَلَ اللَّهُ وَلَا تَتَّبِعْ أَهْوَاءَهُمْ عَمَّا جَاءَكَ مِنَ الْحَقِّ لِكُلٍّ جَعَلْنَا مِنْكُمْ شِرْعَةً وَمِنْهَاجًا وَلَوْ شَاءَ اللَّهُ لَجَعَلَكُمْ أُمَّةً وَاحِدَةً وَلَكِنْ لِيَبْلُوَكُمْ فِي مَا آَتَاكُمْ فَاسْتَبِقُوا الْخَيْرَاتِ إِلَى اللَّهِ مَرْجِعُكُمْ جَمِيعًا فَيُنَبِّئُكُمْ بِمَا كُنْتُمْ فِيهِ تَخْتَلِفُونَ.

“And unto you have We revealed this Book with the truth, confirming whatever Book was revealed before with the evidences in It (Qur’an) [4] , and protecting and guarding over it (the preceding Books). So judge between them by that which Allah has revealed, and follow not their desires away from the truth which has come unto you. For each We have appointed a divine law and a clear way. Had Allah created (your belief) (without your efforts) He could have made you one community. But that He may try you by that which He has given you (He has made you as you are). So compete one with another in good works. To Allah you will all return, and He will then inform you of that on which you disagreed. ” (Al Maida/The Feast 5:48).

These verses suggest that Quran is the last copy of the scriptures revealed by Allah, abrogating the previous ones. Now it is to be obeyed. Allah (SWT) commands:

الَّذِينَ يَتَّبِعُونَ الرَّسُولَ النَّبِيَّ الْأُمِّيَّ الَّذِي يَجِدُونَهُ مَكْتُوبًا عِنْدَهُمْ فِي التَّوْرَاةِ وَالْإِنْجِيلِ يَأْمُرُهُمْ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ وَيَنْهَاهُمْ عَنِ الْمُنْكَرِ وَيُحِلُّ لَهُمُ الطَّيِّبَاتِ وَيُحَرِّمُ عَلَيْهِمُ الْخَبَائِثَ وَيَضَعُ عَنْهُمْ إِصْرَهُمْ وَالْأَغْلَالَ الَّتِي كَانَتْ عَلَيْهِمْ فَالَّذِينَ آَمَنُوا بِهِ وَعَزَّرُوهُ وَنَصَرُوهُ وَاتَّبَعُوا النُّورَ الَّذِي أُنْزِلَ مَعَهُ أُولَئِكَ هُمُ الْمُفْلِحُونَ.

“Those who follow the messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write, whom they will find described in the Torah and the Gospel (which are) with them. He will enjoin on them that which is right and forbid them that which is wrong. He will make lawful for them all good things and forbid them only from the foul; and he will relieve them of their burden and the fetters that they used to wear. Those who believe in him, and support him with respect and help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him; it is those who will be successful.” (Al-A’raf/ The Elevated Place 7:157)

Pointless debates have taken place on whether the sunnah, acts and words of the Prophet (p.b.u.h), may abrogate the verses. The sunnah is subordinate to Quran. The subordinate may not be judged separately from the principle [5]. Allah (SWT) commands:



اتَّبِعْ مَا أُوحِيَ إِلَيْكَ مِنْ رَبِّكَ لَا إِلَهَ إِلَّا هُوَ وَأَعْرِضْ عَنِ الْمُشْرِكِينَ.

Follow, [O Muhammad], what has been revealed to you from your Lord – there is no deity except Him – and turn away from those polytheists (mushrikun). (Al-An’am/ The Cattle 6:106)



وَإِذَا تُتْلَى عَلَيْهِمْ آَيَاتُنَا بَيِّنَاتٍ قَالَ الَّذِينَ لَا يَرْجُونَ لِقَاءَنَا ائْتِ بِقُرْآَنٍ غَيْرِ هَذَا أَوْ بَدِّلْهُ قُلْ مَا يَكُونُ لِي أَنْ أُبَدِّلَهُ مِنْ تِلْقَاءِ نَفْسِي إِنْ أَتَّبِعُ إِلَّا مَا يُوحَى إِلَيَّ إِنِّي أَخَافُ إِنْ عَصَيْتُ رَبِّي عَذَابَ يَوْمٍ عَظِيمٍ.

“And when Our revelations are recited unto them as clear evidences, they who look not for the meeting with Us said: “Bring a Quran other than this, or change it.” Say (O Muhammad): “It is not for me to change it of my own accord. I only follow what is revealed to me. If I disobey my Lord I fear the chastisement of a tremendous Day.” (Yunus/ Jonah 10:15)

It goes without saying that, when a verse is abrogated, the words and practices of our Prophet shall also be abrogated.

It is claimed that the meaning of a verse survives, after its wording is abrogated. For a verse could only be abrogated by another verse, the later verse abrogates also the meaning of the previous one, in addition to its wording.

The verse which describes the process of abrogation is the following one:

مَا نَنْسَخْ مِنْ آَيَةٍ أَوْ نُنْسِهَا نَأْتِ بِخَيْرٍ مِنْهَا أَوْ مِثْلِهَا أَلَمْ تَعْلَمْ أَنَّ اللَّهَ عَلَى كُلِّ شَيْءٍ قَدِيرٌ

“Whatever verse We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than it or like it. Do you not know that Allah has power over all things.” (Al-Baqara /The Cow 2:106).

Another verse is the following:

وَإِذَا بَدَّلْنَا آَيَةً مَكَانَ آَيَةٍ وَاللَّهُ أَعْلَمُ بِمَا يُنَزِّلُ قَالُوا إِنَّمَا أَنْتَ مُفْتَرٍ بَلْ أَكْثَرُهُمْ لَا يَعْلَمُونَ.

“And when We replace (one) verse with (another)verse, and Allah knows best what He reveals, they say: “You are only a forger. No, most of them do not know.” ” (An-Nahl /The Bee 16:101).

These verses prescribe two conditions for abrogation:

1. It should occur between verses / communications.

2. The abrogating verse should bear the same provision with, or a better provision than the one contained in the former verse.

Consequentially, while the majority of verses in Quran involve the same provisions with the verses of previous scriptures, some have alleviating provisions. The punishment for adultery is an example of alleviation.

The punishment for adultery in Torah and Gospel is death sentence. Our Prophet also used to practice this for some time. Qur’an first converted this punishment into life imprisonment, and then into 100 whip beats. Now let us see the course of abrogation on this issue in Torah, Gospel and Quran.

A-PUNISHMENT FOR ADULTERY IN TORAH

Following is quoted from the Levites Section 20:

10.And the man that committed adultery with another man’s wife, even he that committed adultery with his neighbour’s wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

11.And the man that slept with his father’s wife has uncovered his father’s nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. .

12. And if a man sleep with his daughter in law, both of them shall surely be put to death: they have wrought confusion; their blood shall be upon them

13.If a man also sleep with mankind, as he slept with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

17. And if a man shall take his sister, his father’s daughter, or his mother’s daughter, and see her nakedness, and she see his nakedness; it is a wicked thing; and they shall be cut off in the sight of their people: he has uncovered his sister’s nakedness; he shall bear his iniquity.

19.And you shall not uncover the nakedness of your mother’s sister, nor of your father’s sister: for he uncovered his near kin: they shall bear their iniquity.”

20.And if a man shall sleep with his uncle’s wife, he has uncovered his uncle’s nakedness: they shall bear their sin; they shall die childless.

21.And if a man shall take his brother’s wife, it is an unclean thing: he has uncovered his brother’s nakedness; they shall be childless

Following is quoted from the Deuteronomy Section 22:

22. If a man is found lying with the wife of another man, both of them shall die, the man who lay with the woman, and the woman; so you shall purge the evil from Israel.

23.If there is a betrothed virgin, and a man meets her in the city and lies with her;

24.Then you shall bring them both out to the gate of that city, and you shall stone them to death with stones, the young woman because she did not cry for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbor’s wife; so you shall purge the evil from the midst of you

25. But if in the open country a man meets a young woman who is betrothed, and the man seizes her and lies with her, then only the man who lay with her shall die.

26. But to the young woman you shall do nothing; in the young woman there is no offense punishable by death, for this case is like that of a man attacking and murdering his neighbor.

B- PUNISHMENT FOR ADULTERY IN THE GOSPEL

Section of the Gospel of John quotes the following event:

3-4- The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery, and placing her in the midst, they said to him, “Teacher, this woman has been caught in the act of adultery”

5-Now in the law Moses commanded us to stone such. What do you say about her?

6.This they said to test him, that they might have some charge to bring against him. Jesus bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground.

7. And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, “Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her”

8.And once more he bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground.

9.But when they heard it, they went away, one by one, beginning with the eldest, and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him.

10.Jesus looked up and said to her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”

11.She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said, “Neither do I condemn you; go, and do not sin again.”

Jesus (p.b.u.h) did not abrogate stoning with these words, but only refrained from imposing such a heavy punishment relying only on the testimony of sinful people. The Gospel of Matthew includes the following verses:

17.Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them.

18. For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away,not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished.

19. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew 5)

C-STONING PUNISHMENT IN THE PRACTICE OF PROPHET (P.B.U.H)

There happened to pass by Allah’s Prophet (p.b.u.h) a Jew blackened and lashed. He called them (the Jews) and said: “Is this the punishment that you find in your Book?” They said : “Yes” He called one of the scholars amongst them and said: “I ask you in the name of Allah Who sent down the Torah on Moses if that is the prescribed punishment for adultery that you find in your Book”. He said :”Had you not asked me in the name of Allah, I would not have given you this information. But this (crime) became quite common amongst our aristocratic class. So when we caught hold of any rich person (indulging in this offence) we spared him, but when we caught hold of a helpless person we imposed the prescribed punishment upon him”. We then said: “Let us agree (on a punishment) which we can inflict both upon the rich and the poor”. So We decided to blacken the face with coal and flog as a substitute punishment for stoning. Thereupon Allah’s Prophet (may peace be upon him) said:

“O Allah, I am the first to revive Your command when they had made it dead.”

He then commanded and he (the offender) was stoned to death. Allah (SWT) sent down (this verse):



يُحَرِّفُونَ الْكَلِمَ مِنْ بَعْدِ مَوَاضِعِهِ يَقُولُونَ إِنْ أُوتِيتُمْ هَذَا فَخُذُوهُ وَإِنْ لَمْ تُؤْتَوْهُ فَاحْذَرُوا.

“…some Jews…alter the words from their established meanings. They say: if this decision is made about you, follow it, and if this is not decided, obey not..” (Al-Ma’ida/ The Feast 5:41)

Because it was said (by the Jews): Go to Muhammad; if he commands you to blacken the face and award flogging (as punishment for adultery), then accept it, but it he gives verdict for stoning, then avoid it. Then Allah (SWT) sent these verses for all concealers:



وَمَنْ لَمْ يَحْكُمْ بِمَا أَنْزَلَ اللَّهُ فَأُولَئِكَ هُمُ الْكَافِرُونَ

“… whoso judged not by that which Allah has revealed: such are concealers.”

وَمَنْ لَمْ يَحْكُمْ بِمَا أَنْزَلَ اللَّهُ فَأُولَئِكَ هُمُ الظَّالِمُونَ

“… whoso judged not by that which Allah has revealed: such are wrongdoers.”

وَمَنْ لَمْ يَحْكُمْ بِمَا أَنْزَلَ اللَّهُ فَأُولَئِكَ هُمُ الْفَاسِقُونَ.

“… whoso judged not by that which Allah has revealed: such are sinners (fasiqun).” (Al-Ma’ida/ The Feast 5:44-47)[6]

A man and a woman of the Jews committed adultery. Some of them said to the others: “Let us go to this Prophet. For he has been sent with an easy law. If he gives a judgment lighter than stoning, we shall accept it, and argue about it with Allah, saying: “It is a judgment of one of your prophets.” So they came to the Prophet (p.b.u.h) who was sitting in the mosque among his companions. They said: “Abul Qasim [7], what do you think about a man and a woman who committed adultery? He did not speak to them a word till he went to their school (Bayt al-midras, the place where they taught Torah) [8]. He stood at the gate and said: “I adjure you by Allah Who revealed the Torah to Moses, what (punishment) do you find in the Torah for a person who commits adultery, if he is married?” They said: He shall be blackened with charcoal, taken round a donkey among the people, and flogged. A young man among them kept silent. When the Prophet (p.b.u.h) emphatically adjured him, he said: . “By Allah, since you have adjured us (we inform you that) we find stoning in the Torah (is the punishment for adultery). The Prophet (p.b.u.h) said: “So when did you lessen the severity of Allah’s command?” They said: A relative of one of our kings had committed adultery, but his stoning was suspended. . Then a man of a family of common people committed adultery. He was to have been stoned. But his people intervened and said: “Our man shall not be stoned until you bring your man and stone him.” So they made a compromise on this punishment between them. The Prophet (p.b.u.h) said: “So I decide in accordance with what the Torah says. He then commanded regarding them and they were stoned to death.

Az-zukhri said: We have been informed that this verse was revealed about them:



إِنَّا أَنْزَلْنَا التَّوْرَاةَ فِيهَا هُدًى وَنُورٌ يَحْكُمُ بِهَا النَّبِيُّونَ.

“We did reveal the Torah, wherein is guidance and a light, by which the Prophets who submitted themselves (to Allah) judged the Jews, and the rabbis and the scholars (judged) by such of Allah’s Book. ” (Al-Ma’ida/ The Feast 5:44) Our Prophet is among them. [9]

One day a Jew man and a Jew woman were brought to the Prophet (p.b.u.h). They committed the crime together. Thereupon Allah’s Prophet (may peace be upon him) said: What do you find in your book on this issue? “Our scholars established the punishment of blackening with ash and placing backwards on the animal.”

Abdullah Bin Salam said: “Oh the Messenger of Allah, let them bring the Torah.” Torah was brought. He put one of his hand on the verse on stoning. Then he read the previous and next verses. Abdullah Bin Salam said : “Lift up your hand!”. The verse on stoning was seen at once under his hand. The Messenger of Allah ordered, and both were stoned to death [10].

Ruling of the Messenger of Allah for Jews could have only been the ruling of Allah. Allah (SWT) commands:



وَأَنْزَلْنَا إِلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ بِالْحَقِّ مُصَدِّقًا لِمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ مِنَ الْكِتَابِ وَمُهَيْمِنًا عَلَيْهِ فَاحْكُمْ بَيْنَهُمْ بِمَا أَنْزَلَ اللَّهُ وَلَا تَتَّبِعْ أَهْوَاءَهُمْ.

“And unto you have We revealed this Book with the truth, confirming whatever Book was revealed before with the evidences in It (Qur’an) , and protecting and guarding over it (the preceding Books). So judge between them by that which Allah has revealed, and follow not their desires away from the truth which has come unto you. ” (Al-Ma’ida/ The Feast 5:48)

It is narrated that the following verse also relates to this adultery case [11]:

وَكَيْفَ يُحَكِّمُونَكَ وَعِنْدَهُمُ التَّوْرَاةُ فِيهَا حُكْمُ اللَّهِ ثُمَّ يَتَوَلَّوْنَ مِنْ بَعْدِ ذَلِكَ وَمَا أُولَئِكَ بِالْمُؤْمِنِينَ.

How come they to you for judgment when they have the Torah, wherein Allah has delivered judgment (for them)? Yet even after that they turn away. Such are not believers. (Al-Ma’ida/ The Feast 5:43)

This verse assured that the judgment in Torah for adultery is the judgment of Allah. The reason that Jews came to our Prophet (p.b.u.h) was to avoid this punishment. For that reason, they said to those whom they sent: “…if this decision is made about you, follow it, and if this is not decided, obey not..” (Al-Maida/ The Feast 5:41) [12]

Given that the judgment in Torah is the judgment of Allah, our Prophet could not have prescribed any other penalty. For a while, he followed Torah for Muslims who committed adultery. The following hadeeth demonstrates this:

Abu Khurayra and Zaid Bin Khalid said: “We were with the Prophet (p.b.u.h). A man stood up and said: “I urge you to judge only with the book of Allah among us.” His respondent was more indulgent, he said: “Judge among us with the Book of Allah, and listen to me.” Our Prophet said : ‘Speak’, he followed:

“My son was his worker. He committed adultery with his wife. I gave as ransom money 100 sheep and a servant slave. I asked to those who know, they told that my son should get 100 whips and a year in exile, and the woman is to be stoned to death.”

Our Prophet said: “I swear by who sustains my life, I shall judge with the Book of Allah among you. 100 sheep and the slave are to be returned. Your son is to be punished by 100 whips and a year of exile. Unays, go the wife of this man, stone her to death if she admits the crime.” He went, and stoned her to death as she admitted the crime [13].

It is clear that the “Book of Allah” mentioned here is Torah. For no verse was revealed then in Quran concerning adultery. Neither of the verses revealed contained the punishment of stoning.

The punishment of whipping is not present the Torah copy we have in our hands. This punishment may be in the copy held by Jews in Madina.

D-ABROGATION OF THE PUNISHMENT OF STONING

With the verses in Surat an-Nisa, the punishment of stoning to death, rajm, was converted to house arrest for women, and further it was ruled that the man and the woman are to be oppressed till they correct themselves. Allah (SWT) commands:



وَاللَّاتِي يَأْتِينَ الْفَاحِشَةَ مِنْ نِسَائِكُمْ فَاسْتَشْهِدُوا عَلَيْهِنَّ أَرْبَعَةً مِنْكُمْ فَإِنْ شَهِدُوا فَأَمْسِكُوهُنَّ فِي الْبُيُوتِ حَتَّى يَتَوَفَّاهُنَّ الْمَوْتُ أَوْ يَجْعَلَ اللَّهُ لَهُنَّ سَبِيلًا. وَاللَّذَانِ يَأْتِيَانِهَا مِنْكُمْ فَآَذُوهُمَا فَإِنْ تَابَا وَأَصْلَحَا فَأَعْرِضُوا عَنْهُمَا إِنَّ اللَّهَ كَانَ تَوَّابًا رَحِيمًا.

“And those of your women who commit adultery — call to witness four of you against them; and if they bear witness, then confine them to the houses until death overtakes them or Allah open for them a way.

Punish both of them- man and woman-, among you that commit adultery. If they repent and correct themselves, then let them. Allah accepts the repentance. He is The Merciful.” (An-Nisa/ The Women 4:15-16)

The expression “…until Allah open for them a way..” demonstrates that the punishment will be further alleviated. The alleviation has taken place with the second verse of Surah an-Nur. Allah (SWT) commands:



الزَّانِيَةُ وَالزَّانِي فَاجْلِدُوا كُلَّ وَاحِدٍ مِنْهُمَا مِئَةَ جَلْدَةٍ وَلَا تَأْخُذْكُمْ بِهِمَا رَأْفَةٌ فِي دِينِ اللَّهِ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآَخِرِ وَلْيَشْهَدْ عَذَابَهُمَا طَائِفَةٌ مِنَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ.

“Flog each of them, the adulterer and the adulteress, hundred stripes. If you believe in Allah and in the Last Day, don’t be tender to them when you perform the order of Allah. Let a party of the believers testify with their own eyes this punishment.” (An-Noor/ The Light 24:2)

This verse judged for 100 whips as the punishment of adultery, without any discrimination between man and woman, or single and married. This punishment is lighter than being detained in house till death, or oppressed until one improves himself/herself, as mentioned in Surat an-Nisa.

Quran abrogated the provisions in Torah concerning adultery, which our Prophet (p.b.u.h) applied for a period of time. Some had the opinion that, considering the previous practices of our Prophet (p.b.u.h), Surat an-Noor regulated the punishment to be imposed to the single and Quran contained no provision concerning the married, who deserved the punishment of stoning to death. Yet, it is clear from the three verses that the punishment to be imposed to the married should be 100 whips.

1. Slander of Adultery to One’s Wife



وَالَّذِينَ يَرْمُونَ أَزْوَاجَهُمْ وَلَمْ يَكُنْ لَهُمْ شُهَدَاءُ إِلَّا أَنْفُسُهُمْ فَشَهَادَةُ أَحَدِهِمْ أَرْبَعُ شَهَادَاتٍ بِاللَّهِ إِنَّهُ لَمِنَ الصَّادِقِينَ. وَالْخَامِسَةُ أَنَّ لَعْنَةَ اللَّهِ عَلَيْهِ إِنْ كَانَ مِنَ الْكَاذِبِينَ. وَيَدْرَأُ عَنْهَا الْعَذَابَ أَنْ تَشْهَدَ أَرْبَعَ شَهَادَاتٍ بِاللَّهِ إِنَّهُ لَمِنَ الْكَاذِبِينَ. وَالْخَامِسَةَ أَنَّ غَضَبَ اللَّهِ عَلَيْهَا إِنْ كَانَ مِنَ الصَّادِقِينَ.

“And (as for) those who accuse their wives and have no witnesses except themselves, their testimony should be taken four times, bearing Allah to witness that he is most surely telling the truth.
The fifth (time) he wishes that the curse of Allah be on him, if he is one of the liars.
And what will avert the chastisement from her is if she testifies four times, bearing Allah to witness that her husband is most surely lying.
The fifth (time), she wishes that the wrath of Allah be on her, if he is telling the truth.” (An-Noor/The Light 24:6-9)

The expression “the chastisement = al azab” in the 8th verse shows the 100-whip punishment. The `al’ affix is for a specific reference, granting the word to which it is affixed the meaning specified formerly. The torment specified in Quran concerning adultery is 100 whips. It is not possible for that word to refer to any other thing within the context of Arabic grammar. It is certain that the woman mentioned above is married.

2. The Verse on Wives of the Prophet



يَا نِسَاءَ النَّبِيِّ مَنْ يَأْتِ مِنْكُنَّ بِفَاحِشَةٍ مُبَيِّنَةٍ يُضَاعَفْ لَهَا الْعَذَابُ ضِعْفَيْنِ وَكَانَ ذَلِكَ عَلَى اللَّهِ يَسِيرًا.

“O you the wives of the Prophet! Whosoever of you commits manifest lewdness, the punishment for her will be doubled.” (Al-Ahzab/ The Allies 33:30).

It is apparent that the wives of the Prophet are married. The punishment to be imposed on them should be appropriate for doubling. Death punishment could not be doubled, but 100 whips can be.

The word “al azab” quoted in these verses signifies only the 100 whips in Surat an-Noor. Because the “al” affix here is for specific reference.

3. Adultery of the Married Maids (Jariyah)




فَإِنْ أَتَيْنَ بِفَاحِشَةٍ فَعَلَيْهِنَّ نِصْفُ مَا عَلَى الْمُحْصَنَاتِ مِنَ الْعَذَابِ.

“…the believing maids whom your right hands possess… if when they are honourably married they commit lewdness they shall incur the half of the punishment (prescribed) for free women (in that case).” (An-Nisa / The Women 4:25)

If it is the stoning which is to be imposed for married free women, the term “half” makes no sense as regards stoning to death. Because some die by one stone hit, some by numerous stones. It is only the 100 whips which could be halved.

In conclusion, the sole punishment for the crime of adultery is 100 whips. After all such clear evidences, the opposite could not be claimed. Besides, the Prophet of Allah said: “Lower the punishments to the extent it is justifiable by doubts.” [14]. Given such apparent evidences, the stoning punishment could not be defended relying on doubtful evidences.

Thus Quran abrogates both Torah and Gospel concerning the punishment for adultery.

4. Practices of the Prophet (p.b.u.h) Demonstrating that Stoning is Abrogated

Ash-Shaibani said: “I asked to Abdullah Bin Abu Awfa: ‘Had the Messenger of Allah (p.b.u.h) applied the stoning punishment?’ He said : “Yes” “Was that before or after the (revelation of) Surat an-Noor?”. He said “I do not know”. [15].

However, the following narration indicates that the practice of stoning was before the revelation of Surat an-Noor:

A man had confessed that he committed adultery. The Messenger of Allah asked for a stick. A broken stick was brought. He said: “Bring a better one” A new stick was brought, knurls of which were not sculpt. He said: “Bring a lighter one” A smooth, soft stick was brought. The man was beaten with the stick upon the order of the Messenger of Allah. Then he said:

“O people! Now it is time to avoid the limits put by Allah. Whoever does anything from such ignominies, let him cover himself with the veil of Allah [16]. For we apply the Book of Allah to those who show us their faces.” [17]

Here, beating the criminal with 100 whips regardless of whether he was single or married, and saying that the Book of Allah was applied, abolish all doubts. Because there is no other punishment in the Book of Allah then 100 whips.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SOURCE: Bayindir, Abdulaziz. Kur’an Işığında Doğru Bildiğimiz Yanlışlar, Suleymaniye Foundation Publications, 2 ed., Istanbul, 2007, p: 280-294.

[1] al-Ayn, item نسخ
[2] The general name given to communities who have in their hands the scriptures revealed by Allah.
[3]Those who exploit people by way of religion pretend their books to be dictated by Allah in order to attribute them divineness. Many are deceived by this.
[4] The word “al kitab” used in the verse is repeated twice with the letter “lam”, and thus both meanings were given as Quran. For Quran affirms the verses which are present both in it and in the previous scriptures, not the ones which are foisted into them. Alleviation of heavy punishments, such as stoning to death of the adulterer, is also a type of affirmation. Since Quran is protected by Allah, so are such provisions of previous books.
[5] Majalla with Explanatory Notes (Majalla al-Ahkam al-Adliyya), Edit. Ali Himmet Berki, İstanbul, 1978, art. 48.
[6] Muslim, Hudud, 28.
[7] Meaning “the father of Qasim”. Arabs call a person with the name of his first son. Qasim was the first son of our Prophet (p.b.u.h).
[8] Ahmet Önkal, “Beytülmidras”, DİA, v. VI, p. 95.
[9] Abu Dawood, Hudud, 26.
[10] Bukhari, Hudud, 24.
[11] at-Tabari, Tafseer, V. IV s. 583; al-Jassas, Ahkam al-Quran, V. II, p. 438; al-Qurtubi, al-Jami li Ahkam al-Quran, v. VI, p. 122.
[12] at-Tabari, Tafseer, V. IV, p. 577.
[13] Bukhari, Hudud, 30.
[14] Tirmidhi, Hudud, 2.
[15] Bukhari, Hudud, 21.
[16] Let him repent.
[17] Muwatta, Hudud, 2/12.
 

ditta

Alhamdu'Lillaah
Staff member
As-salaamu'alaykum,

First of all, i believe we all agree that Allah is the one who is law-maker. And Muhammed(a.s.) was a human massanger and he lived his life as an example for muslims of past,today and future. While i believe the authentic narrations clarify the Qur'an (Prayer, Zakaat, etc.), i do not believe authentic narrations can be taken as an independent legislative authority. Otherwise, we would have much bigger problems that we would need unreasonable explanations to combine Quran And Sunnah. Such as verses being eaten by a goat etc.

I will try to give it a read. By the way when I said:

I was disputing the issue of the authentic narrations taken as a independent legislative authority:

I forgot to add "that has no root in the Qur'aan" but I guess that is irrelevant considering the stance that you took in your post. (The opinion you made, I have not read from anyone, as the thread linked below shows it appears the opinion you said is not stated by anyone). I suggest again you refer to this thread which it appears you have not viewed. I hope you read it in full.

http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90442
 

ditta

Alhamdu'Lillaah
Staff member
As-salaamu'alaykum,

I thought I recognised the article that you posted regarding adultery and stoning. This topic has been brought up on TTI before, and you pasted the same article in that thread. Here is what Umar ibn al-Khattab (radiyAllahu anh) has to say, and like you say, we have to act more like him, (more importantly though the Prophet :saw: :

Narrated ibn ‘Abbaas (radiyAllahu anh):

I used to teach (the Qur’aan) to some people of the Muhajiroon (emigrants), among whom there was ‘Abdur-Rahmaan ibn ‘Awf. While I was in his house at Mina, and he was with ‘Umar bin al-Khattaab during ‘Umar’s last Hajj, ‘Abdur-Rahmaan came to me and said,


“Would that you had seen the man who came today to the Chief of the believers! What do you think about so-and-so who says:

‘If ‘Umar should die, I will give the Bai’a (pledge) to such-and-such person, as by Allah, the Bai’a to Abu Bakr was nothing but a prompt sudden action which got established afterwards.;


‘Umar became angry and then said,

‘If Allah will, I will stand before the people tonight and warn them against those people who want to deprive others of their rights (the question of rulership).’”

‘Abdur-Rahmaan said,

“I said,

‘O Chief of the believers! Do not do that, for the season of Hajj gathers the riffraff and the rabble, and it will be they who will gather around you when you stand to address the people. And I am afraid that you will get up and say something, and some people will spread your statement and may not say what you have actually said and may not understand its meaning, and may interpret it incorrectly, so you should wait till you reach Al-Madeenah as it is the place of emigration and the place of Prophet’s Sunnah; and there you can come in touch with the learned and noble people, and tell them your ideas with confidence, and the learned people will understand your statement and put it in its proper place.’

On that, ‘Umar said,

‘By Allah! If Allah will, I will do this in the first speech I will deliver before the people in Al-Madeenah.’”

Ibn Abbaas added:

We reached Al-Madeenah by the end of the month of Dhul-Hijjah, and when it was Friday, we went quickly (to the masjid) as soon as the sun had declined, and I saw Sa’eed ibn Zayd bin ‘Amr ibn Nufayl sitting at a corner of the pulpit, and I, too, sat close to him so that my knee was touching his knee, and after a short while, ‘Umar bin al-Khattaab came out, and when I saw him coming towards us, I said to Sa’eed ibn Zayd bin ‘Amr bin Nufayl,

“Today, Umar will say such a thing as he has never said since he was chosen as caliph.”


Sa’eed denied my statement with astonishment and said,

“What thing do you expect Umar to say the like of which he has never said before?”

In the meantime, ‘Umar sat down on the pulpit and when the Mu’adh-dhin had finished their call for Salaat (prayer), Umar stood up, and having glorified and praised Allah, as He deserved, he said,

“Amma ba’du (then after), I am going to tell you something which (Allah) has written for me to say. I do not know; perhaps it portends my death, so whoever understands and remembers it, must narrate it to the others wherever his mount takes him, but if somebody is afraid, that he does not understand it, then it is unlawful for him to tell lies about me. Allah sent Muhammad :saw: with the Truth and revealed the Book (the Qur’aan) to him, and among what Allah revealed, was the verse of the Rajm (the stoning to death) of married person (male and female) who commits illegal sexual intercourse, and we did recite this verse and understood and memorised it. Allah’s Messenger did carry out the punishment of stoning and so did we after him. I am afraid that after a long time has passed, somebody will say,

‘By Allah, we do not find the verse of the Rajm in Allah’s Book,’


- and thus they will go astray by leaving an obligation which Allah has revealed. And the punishment of the Rajm is to be inflicted to any married person (male and female) who commits illegal sexual intercourse) if the required evidence is available or there is conception or confession. And then we used to recite among the verses in Allah’s Book:

“O people! Do not claim to be the offspring of other than your fathers, as it is disbelief on your part that you claim to be the offspring of other than your real father.’


Then Allah’s Messenger said,

“Do not praise me excessively as (Prophet) ‘Eesa ibn Maryam (Jesus, son of Mary) was praised but call me Allah’s slave and His Messenger.’

(O people!) I have been informed that a speaker among you says,

“By Allah, if Umar should die, I will give the Bai’a (pleade) to such and such person...............................’

(Saheeh al-Bukhaari, Volume 8, Hadeeth no. 6830).

There is also a similar narration in Saheeh Muslim as referenced in the book attached in my original post. I don't know if the version in Sunan ibn Maajah is the same.

Additionally, I posted this wherein in it discusses the prescribed punishment for zina, and contains nothing of the opinion you posted. I suggest you read that.

I think the attachment below titled 'A Summary of Islamic Jurisprudence Volume 2' by Shaykh Saalih al-Fawzaan might help. Please navigate to pg 601 of the PDF (not the page printed on the actual book). The chapter on the prescribed punishment for Zina is pg 609.

I feel the chapter explains this whole issue very well. Therefore there is no point me adding anything in this post.

(Right click and save target as/link as).

A Summary of Islamic Jurisprudence Volume 2

(The Hadeeth that it references at Endnote 3 in the PDF for the zina chapter, I will try to post that in full, Insha'Allah).

Here is the link to the thread:

http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=81236

Do you reject what Umar ibn al-Khattab said wherein he shows that the prescribed punishment for zina was carried out upon the married person after the Prophet :saw: passed away?
 

mezeren

Junior Member
ditta;585081]As-salaamu'alaykum,


Wa Alaykum Salam Wa Rahmatullah Wa Barakatuh,

What i was trying to say is(taken from the post you refer to);

2. Some scholars say that no Sunnah has even been established except that it has a basis in the Qur’an. In his Sunnah, the Prophet clarified the number of prayers and the detailed rulings of the prayers based on the verses that establish the Prayer to be compulsory. The same can be said about business transactions as well as other legislations.

And this part from my previous post(i hope you read it, if so, please share with me what you think);

Pointless debates have taken place on whether the sunnah, acts and words of the Prophet (p.b.u.h), may abrogate the verses. The sunnah is subordinate to Quran. The subordinate may not be judged separately from the principle [5]. Allah (SWT) commands:



اتَّبِعْ مَا أُوحِيَ إِلَيْكَ مِنْ رَبِّكَ لَا إِلَهَ إِلَّا هُوَ وَأَعْرِضْ عَنِ الْمُشْرِكِينَ.

Follow, [O Muhammad], what has been revealed to you from your Lord – there is no deity except Him – and turn away from those polytheists (mushrikun). (Al-An’am/ The Cattle 6:106)



وَإِذَا تُتْلَى عَلَيْهِمْ آَيَاتُنَا بَيِّنَاتٍ قَالَ الَّذِينَ لَا يَرْجُونَ لِقَاءَنَا ائْتِ بِقُرْآَنٍ غَيْرِ هَذَا أَوْ بَدِّلْهُ قُلْ مَا يَكُونُ لِي أَنْ أُبَدِّلَهُ مِنْ تِلْقَاءِ نَفْسِي إِنْ أَتَّبِعُ إِلَّا مَا يُوحَى إِلَيَّ إِنِّي أَخَافُ إِنْ عَصَيْتُ رَبِّي عَذَابَ يَوْمٍ عَظِيمٍ.

“And when Our revelations are recited unto them as clear evidences, they who look not for the meeting with Us said: “Bring a Quran other than this, or change it.” Say (O Muhammad): “It is not for me to change it of my own accord. I only follow what is revealed to me. If I disobey my Lord I fear the chastisement of a tremendous Day.” (Yunus/ Jonah 10:15)



But, real issue here is not how we see the position of Sunnah, rather, the position of narrations. if i had lived in the time of the Prophet of Allah i would have obeyed everything He(a.s.) said . The problem is some of the narrations in hadith books are not reliable because they contradict Quran. They are not from Rasullullah. Remember the narrations and how the Mother of Believers, Aisha (r.a.), acted upon narrations that were claimed to be from Rasulallah. She did not accepted them just because some one said they were the words of Muhammed(a.s.). instead, she referred to Quran and corrected or rejected the narrations.


i would like to point out a couple of things from the link you gave:

it says there;

"3. A text that establishes a ruling that the Qur’an does not speak of, meaning that it neither confirms nor denies it. In this category are those hadiths that establish the prohibition of marrying a woman and her aunt (whether from the father’s or the mother’s side) at the same time. Another example is the stoning of an adulteress and the banishment of a fornicator; yet another example is the ruling that establishes a share of inheritance for a grandmother."

How sad it is that one goes blind when he gives narrations a higher or equal status than Quran. Does Quran NOT speak of the punishment of the fornication? Please, read the article from my previous post.

As for the Sunnah, we are absolutely sure about the authenticity of mutawatir narrations and less than absolutely sure about narrations that are not mutawatir, at least regarding each specific narration, for as a whole, or as a group, they represent absolute, sure knowledge. The text that is established by less than absolute, sure knowledge is second in ranking to that which is established through absolutely sure knowledge. Consequently then, the Sunnah ranks second to the Qur’an.

Only Quran represents absolute, sure knowledge. imam Abu Haneefah accepts ahad narrations under specific conditions first of which is that they must not contradict Quran. Again, we are talking about "narrations".

The Proofs of those who say that the rulings of the third category are independently legislated



First, logically speaking, as long as the Messenger of Allah is protected from erring, there is nothing to prevent the Sunnah from establishing an independent legislation or ruling, and Allah may, according to what He wills, order His Messenger to convey His rulings to the people in any manner whatsoever, regardless of whether it is through the Qur’an or through any other means.

No, He was not protected from erring all the time. There were occasions when He(a.s.) made a mistake which were mantioned in some of the narrations as well. But, he was ALWAYS corrected by Allah after his mistake regarding religion. His treatment to the blind man and captives of the Badr comes to mind. in worly matters he made mistakes as well and the best example of this is the inoculation of date palms in Medina.

i just found the link below and it might be relevant here.

http://www.lastprophet.info/the-question-of-prophet-muhammad-s-ijtihad-judgement
 
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