prophet ( Peace be Upon Him )

[Optimist]

Hello, DadManG

We don't believe in any trinity or duality. God is one for us and is seperate from his creation. He is perfect in everything, all knowing, all able and most forgiving. Allah -glorified may He be- has 99 names which describes his aspect. We also believe that Allah -glorified he may be- is like nothing in his creation and that he cannot be comprehended by humans in this world.

I'm just an ordinary muslim, and to me the existence of any *correct* Bible is irrelevant. I have the Qura'aan and it is more than enough for me. If I'm going to use the Qura'aan as a meausre to the correctness of the Bible then why do I need the Bible ? .... However, to answer your question, the original Bible did call people to worship the one God and evidence of this still exist even in the Bible today ... or is Christianity not a monotheistic religion ?

You are right. I'm not able to comprehend trinity. It defies basic logic for me to say that a human is God (whether the human became God or God became human is pretty much the same thing). I cannot worhisp a man ... nor did Moses, Noah, Adam, Muhammad, or even Jesus (peace and blessing of Allah be upon all of them). Did Jesus ever tell his followers "worship me" ?

It is great blasphemy to say that a human is God. Just tell me, what happened to the food consumed by Jesus (peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) ? ... can you see the insult ?

I pray that Allah (glorified He may be) guide us all to the correct path. Amin.

 

[gazkour]

What do you think we should do with a verse from the bible like the following:

For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.
These things speak and exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you.
Tit 2:11-15
Would you say that nothing from the bible should be listened to?

Peace

Have you ever compared the life of a muslim practicing person and a christian practicing one? Who "denies ungodlines and worldly desires and lives sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age" more than us muslims?

I was a christian as well, and you cannot ever compare the "grace of God" in a muslim with the one in a christian.

As for the second part, I think we have answered so many times, what we think about Paul, it would be just nice that you read our answers and watch the videos we have suggest.

 

[DadManG]

I wanted to dialogue, not spend time chasing down everyones videos and such.

I have been tempted to do the same by giving links and such, but preferred thought provoking dialogue.

I hope that anyone not interested in dialogue will free to not respond to my posts.

Thanks

 

[carpy321]

I wanted to dialogue, not spend time chasing down everyones videos and such.

I have been tempted to do the same by giving links and such, but preferred thought provoking dialogue.

I hope that anyone not interested in dialogue will free to not respond to my posts.

Thanks

Bro it doesnt seem like you want dialouge.. seems like u want argument.. :blackhijab:

 

[gazkour]

DadmanG

When I suggested to you the videos, I just meant to broad your information so we can have a dialogue in clear terms. In those videos they contemplate all the topics we have been discussing about. Have you seen at least one of them?

We are all interested in dialogue here, but it's is very difficult when you don't seem to understand or even read our answers.
I made several questions to you before, so did different people, and I never got an answer from you.
Is that a dialogue?

Respectfully,

Gazkour

 

[abou haytam]

I wanted to dialogue, not spend time chasing down everyones videos and such.

I have been tempted to do the same by giving links and such, but preferred thought provoking dialogue.

I hope that anyone not interested in dialogue will free to not respond to my posts.

Thanks

hi,

I was observing your two threads and i apreciate your staying here. In order to build a dialogue, cuz I feel that our brothers and sisters are waiting for feedback and answers to what they posted to you. Can you please tell us about your thinking about islam ? what do you like and what you don t like about islam? is there some logic meaning to what you learned about islam. please give us answers in your personnal view in order to start a dilaogue again.

peace.

 

[Bluegazer]

Hello DadManG,


You wrote the following in post #40:

As a muslim, do you believe that the Trinity is made up of God, Jesus, and Mary?
That is not what orthodox Christianity believes in. We believe it is made up of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Mary, was just human.

Please read my response to this point by clicking on the following links:

http://www.imanway.com/en/showpost.php?p=16242&postcount=32
http://www.imanway.com/en/showpost.php?p=16344&postcount=1


Best regards,

Bluegazer

 

[BrotherZak]

Optimist, Thank you for your response. I hope to continue with this dialogue. I do not intend to offend anyone.

"You made this statement The concept of Trinity has been problematic for the church for two thousands years and will remain so simply because it is not true.
I am sure you realize that the Christian church has believed in the doctrine of the Trinity from day one. "


Salam DadManG


Lets be frank here because bible veracity and its case of being innerrent has been a lost a claim among historians for some time now. You mentioned that the Christian church has believed in the doctrine of trinity from day one, however, this believe of Jesus divinity has been absent among the early Christianity and communities after Jesus departure from earth. In 325 Ad at the famous council of Nicea to solve the growing dispute surrounding the nature of Jesus(pbuh). The Roman emperor who was pagan needed a new gimmick to unite the disfranchised and unstable roman empire so he used christianity. The problem however became that the Monotheisthic Christianity was totally different from the pagan citizens and the religions they were used too, so it was in his interest to foresee a more Romanized Christianity that would appeal to Roman citizens and additionally unite them behind this religion. A few bishops. At the actual council one of the eye witnesses describes the bishops who had the daunting task of deciding on Jesus's nature as " with the exception of the Emperor and Eusebius and Pamphilus these bishops were a set of illterate simple creatures who understood nothing"

Yet it was this council of illiterate simple minded creatures who decided the faith of Christian doctrine by a vote. In the end the pro-divinity group won by a landslide.

If you want more information on when Jesus become God by Vote:

Here is a historical documentary

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnsPyhJj9Mg&feature=related

This is just another reason why i cannot base my believe on a vote by mere men. Jesus never uttered the word "trinity" or has ever implied it. The facts are there and most historians agree that the bible so-called purity has been lost.

Salam.

 

[nobbyv]

Thank you all for your responses. I appreciate the thought and work involved in them.
Thank you also for allowing me to ask my questions here.

It is convenient for Islam that there are no original manuscripts of the Christian scriptures available.
On the other hand, there is a very great wealth of copies of the Christians scripture, (+-6,000) that are in existence. (Due to the great persecution of the early Christian church.) And by comparing them, it would be possible to have a 99.5% original. Is this valid for you? Or since there are no originals, none are valid?

Peace

Assalamualaikum...Peace be upon you...

Dear DadManG,

The answer for your question lies in your question itself. You are aware of the great persecution of the early Christian church!! So, for about 250 years, it was a serious crime to keep a copy of the scripture. People were persecuted and killed if they were found with a copy of the scripture. After Emperor Constantine established Christianity as the official religion, the canonized scripture was only with the clergy members. No layman was allowed to learn or recite any scripture.

So, as you can see…for a long time (about 500 years) the scripture was always with a small number of people. Isn’t it then possible that these people could anytime tamper with the actual text? Can you guarantee 100% that none of the custodians of the scripture have actually added / deleted a word from the scripture? No one can…

So, even if you bring 100 copies of the Gospel “According” to Mathew, even if all of them are the same…What is the guarantee that they were preserved without any additions/deletions?

Unlike the Quran which is safe in the memory of men…any change by any person can easily be identified!!

And Allah knows best!!

 

[nobbyv]

You mentioned "When I was a Christian", how did you work thru all the evidence for the death and resurrection of Jesus CHrist, to come to the place that it actually was someone else (Judas?) that died?
I'm sure that you are aware that there were hundreds of eye-witnesses to this fact. How have to dealt with this?

Thanks

Assalamualaikum...Peace be upon you...

Dear DadManG,

A very good question…

Before reverting to Islam, I spent 6 months trying to find a common point of agreement between the Bible and the Quran about the crucifixion…but the effort was in vain.

I think the main question every Christian should be asking is “WHAT DID JESUS (PBUH) TRY TO ACHIEVE BY HIS DEATH AND RESURRECTION?” Any average Christian would reply… To Pay The Price For Our Sins!!

Is that really justice??
Would GOD…who is the Judge of all Judges need blood atonement of an innocent man to compensate the sins of mankind?
Who bears the burden of sin? The individual or his children?
Can sin be transferred? Why should I pay the price for my father’s sins and vice versa? IS THAT JUSTICE???

Islam answers the above questions beautifully!!

GOD does not need blood atonement. Even during the sacrifice, Allah makes it clear in the Quran that “It is neither the blood nor the meat that reaches Allah, but it is the piety of the individual that reaches HIM”.

Quran strictly says that the individual alone bears the burden of the sins. The father is responsible for his own sins and the son is responsible for his own sins… This is also clearly mentioned in the bible in chapter Ezekiel Chapter 18. This whole chapter explains clearly that sins cannot be transferred.

Hence I believe that the death and resurrection of Jesus (pbuh) mentioned in the bible is a fabrication and does not agree with the attributes of GOD.

And Allah knows best!!

 

[Mairo]

No agenda, just want to dialogue.
Mario, thanks for the response.
you said "With that being said - for myself, I absolutely trust in the veracity of the Arabic Quran, I do not have the same trust for any other book in existance."

Our trust is only as good as the object in which we trust.
For me, the evidence for Christianity outways that for any other religion. I appreciate listening to you all about Islam. I am trying to understand it a little bit better.
All three of my children spent time living in the middle east. (Egypt and Jordan).

Thanks again

Salaam all,

DadManG - your statement "Our trust is only as good as the object in which we trust." is absolutely correct. I respect the fact that for you, "the evidence for Christianity outways that for any other religion." You have every right to practice your religion in the means you see fit. I hope you will also respect the fact that for me, the evidence for Islam outways any other religion.

I had suggested on your previous thread, and would still suggest to you, that you might find it beneficial to get a biography of the life of the prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, as well as try to read the Quran for yourself. Not necessarily in an effort to try to convince you about Islam, but just so that you might be a little more educated on the subject and better draw your own conclusions.

Also, you might want to learn more about the manner in which the Quran was revealed and how it was memorized, written & transmitted over the decades. The Quran is still memorized end to end by many Muslims, just as it had been committed to memory at the time of the transmission. For societies that are based in a tradition of oral preservation of history rather than written preservation of history, this should not be too surprising that it was completed with such accuracy.

Muhammad was known well before the Quran was revealed as the most upright and trustworthy man in the community. He was well respected. Once he started receiving the message from God and started telling others about the message, he became a hated man by most of the people, especially those in power.

The only book in the Bible that is similar to the revelation received by Muhammad is the revelation received by Moses - these are both cases of direct revelation from God.

The quote you posted before is from a letter written by Saul. Although I do not necessarily dispute that Saul had been inspired by God (otherwise I am not sure what would cause him to stop persecuting against the Christians & Jesus), you should keep in mind that these books of the Bible are merely letters written by a man. In my opinion, these should not be considered with the same weight as scriptures that were a direct revelation from God such as the Torah and Quran.

Also used as reference in Islam is the Sunnah, or example of the prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him. This is most greatly referenced by using the records of Hadith, or recordings that other people made about what he did and said over the course of his life. These collections are very valuable, and some are considered more authentic than others. They are not, however, as trustworthy a source as the Quran, again for the reason I listed above in that they do not represent a direct revelation from God. In my opinion the collection of the Hadith is somewhat similar to what the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John represent - other people recording what the prophets Jesus and Muhammad, peace be upon them, said and did. But the Hadith represents a more careful record - the sources of who observed and related the different sayings/actions is always recorded along with the Hadith. You do not find these sources listed in the Gospel.

In Islam we are taught that both the understanding of the message of the Quran and the Sunnah are important. This is instructed in the Quran, that we are to obey our Lord and obey his Messenger.

You state that you merely "want dialogue", but I think it would help the converstation if you could identify what you mean by that and let us know more clearly what you hope to achieve by this dialogue.

Best wishes to you.

 

[DadManG]

Thank you for your response. I find it very difficult to keep up with the various replys. I don't have time to track down every link someone offers.

When I ask a question, I was hoping to qet a response from the person, not a bunch of links.
I can also offer tons of links for the Christian views. But, where will we get with that?

Does the side with the most videos/links the one which wins. Or is it the one that is Truth?

Maybe this is seen as an inappropriate way to dialogue on this site.

For me, it has been very interesting. But, many of you sound frustrated.
I am willing to move on.

Peace

 

[gazkour]

DadmanG,

You have not received just links and videos, you have received also very good and direct answers but without any reply yet.
As for myself, I've never sent you any link, I just mentioned the suggestion of the videos along with my view or answer to your questions(again, without reply).
Please excuse us for wanting to give you more references to the topic, we don't mean to 'kill' any dialogue by doing so.
You just seem to see what you want to see.
Your first post was 'ended' I think because you received so many concrete and well elaborated answers and your replies just showed that you didn't even bother reading them (never mind the videos and links!)
If you see some frustation in us, is exactly because we can't see the real dialogue from your part.
Anyway, we are still here, always very willing to dialogue.
Please excuse me if I have offended you in any manner
Peace.

 

[DadManG]

Thanks, not offended.
I get overwhelmed with the many responses to my posts. Trying to answer all of them. So I would pick and chose. This is my first attempt at dialogue with muslims in this way. I quickly become swamped. My fault.


Peace

 

[Aapa]

Salaam,

It is difficult to have a dilogue on a global forum. What would help us if you could give us some background into your thinking. What denomination is your comfort zone. How long have you practiced your faith. What are the positives for you..what are the areas of growth that you see for yourself. Are you dogmatic or are you spritual. Is dogma an intergal part of your practicing your faith. What are the limits that you within the sect of Christianity you practice? Are you comfortable with female priests..do you think a female should be a bishop..are you a supporter of gay rights within the church..do you believe a gay person should be able to become a priest or for that matter do you think the laity needs more voice and are you comfortable with a pastor instead of a priest. How about the abortion issue..where do you stand. If you would answer these questions it would help many people to narrow down the dilogue and the specific language would be clear.
I am sensing that you are ernest and searching. You are very polite and reflect on the posts. I hope this helps