Question about Quran 24:3

[Masria]

as salaamu aleykum brothers and sisters

I have a question please about the punishment for zina. This issue has been troubling me for a long time and I read so many different opinions but none that make clear sense to me.

We know the punishment given by the Quran, it is very clear. The consensus of scholars state that the punishment for adultery (married person) is death by stoning. We also know that the narrator of the hadiths regarding rajm was asked whether this was before or after the verse in the Quran was revealed, and answered honestly "I do not know".

So please can someone explain verse 24:3 to me, how can dead bodies get married?

024.003
YUSUFALI: Let no man guilty of adultery or fornication marry and but a woman similarly guilty, or an Unbeliever: nor let any but such a man or an Unbeliever marry such a woman: to the Believers such a thing is forbidden.
PICKTHAL: The adulterer shall not marry save an adulteress or an idolatress, and the adulteress none shall marry save an adulterer or an idolater. All that is forbidden unto believers.
SHAKIR: The fornicator shall not marry any but a fornicatress or idolatress, and (as for) the fornicatress, none shall marry her but a fornicator or an idolater; and it is forbidden to the believers.

This verse is clearly speaking of adultery, not fornication so I am at a loss to understand the punishment of death.

Thnk you for any comments or further reading material you can provide.

 

[gangstaat]

Actuall that;s verse's translation goes like this

And those who acuse honourable women but bring not four witnesses, scourge them (with) eighty stripes and never (afterward) accept their testimony. They indeed are evil doers.

this is talking about blaming innocent people with out witnesses.

 

[Masria]

Actuall that;s verse's translation goes like this

And those who acuse honourable women but bring not four witnesses, scourge them (with) eighty stripes and never (afterward) accept their testimony. They indeed are evil doers.

this is talking about blaming innocent people with out witnesses.

Surely that is 24:4 which is the following verse?

 

[Masria]

I took the verse number from here: http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/024.qmt.html

 

[BintMuhammad]

Actuall that;s verse's translation goes like this

And those who acuse honourable women but bring not four witnesses, scourge them (with) eighty stripes and never (afterward) accept their testimony. They indeed are evil doers.

this is talking about blaming innocent people with out witnesses.

:salam2:

That's a different one akhi.

 

[gangstaat]

oops sorry
its talking about that the person who fornicates shouldn't marry someone who has not commited adultry. and vice versa.
i mean the person who commits adultry should only marry to a person who is an unbeliever or a person who has commited adultry aswell.
i don't know i m not sure exactly
lets wait for other people to reply.

 

[BintMuhammad]

as salaamu aleykum brothers and sisters

I have a question please about the punishment for zina. This issue has been troubling me for a long time and I read so many different opinions but none that make clear sense to me.

We know the punishment given by the Quran, it is very clear. The consensus of scholars state that the punishment for adultery (married person) is death by stoning. We also know that the narrator of the hadiths regarding rajm was asked whether this was before or after the verse in the Quran was revealed, and answered honestly "I do not know".

So please can someone explain verse 24:3 to me, how can dead bodies get married?

024.003
YUSUFALI: Let no man guilty of adultery or fornication marry and but a woman similarly guilty, or an Unbeliever: nor let any but such a man or an Unbeliever marry such a woman: to the Believers such a thing is forbidden.
PICKTHAL: The adulterer shall not marry save an adulteress or an idolatress, and the adulteress none shall marry save an adulterer or an idolater. All that is forbidden unto believers.
SHAKIR: The fornicator shall not marry any but a fornicatress or idolatress, and (as for) the fornicatress, none shall marry her but a fornicator or an idolater; and it is forbidden to the believers.

This verse is clearly speaking of adultery, not fornication so I am at a loss to understand the punishment of death.

Thnk you for any comments or further reading material you can provide.

:salam2:

Inshaa'Allaah here it is..

Carry out the Prescribed Punishment in Public


[وَلْيَشْهَدْ عَذَابَهُمَا طَآئِفَةٌ مِّنَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ]


(And let a party of the believers witness their punishment.) This is more humiliating for the people who are guilty of illegal sex, if they are flogged in front of the people. This is because it is more effective as a deterrent and it conveys the sense of scandal and rebuke. Al-Hasan Al-Basri said,


[وَلْيَشْهَدْ عَذَابَهُمَا طَآئِفَةٌ مِّنَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ]


(And let a party of the believers witness their punishment.) "Publicly.''


[الزَّانِى لاَ يَنكِحُ إِلاَّ زَانِيَةً أَوْ مُشْرِكَةً وَالزَّانِيَةُ لاَ يَنكِحُهَآ إِلاَّ زَانٍ أَوْ مُشْرِكٌ وَحُرِّمَ ذلِكَ عَلَى الْمُؤْمِنِينَ ]


(3. The Zani marries not but a Zaniyah or a Mushrikah; and the Zaniyah, none marries her except a Zani or a Mushrik. Such a thing is forbidden to the believers.) Here Allah tells us that the Zani (male who is guilty of illegal sex) does not have intercourse except with a Zaniyah (female who is guilty of illegal sex) or a Mushrikah (female idolator), meaning that no one would go along with him in this action except a sinful woman who is also guilty of Zina, or a Mushrikah who does not think it is unlawful. By the same token,

[وَالزَّانِيَةُ لاَ يَنكِحُهَآ إِلاَّ زَانٍ]


(and the Zaniyah, none marries her except a Zani) a sinful man who is guilty of fornication,


[أَوْ مُشْرِكَةً]


(or a Mushrik) (a man) who does not think it is unlawful.


[وَحُرِّمَ ذلِكَ عَلَى الْمُؤْمِنِينَ]


(Such a thing is forbidden to the believers.) meaning, indulging in this, or marrying prostitutes, or marrying chaste women to immoral men. Qatadah and Muqatil bin Hayyan said: "Allah forbade the believers from marrying prostitutes.'' This Ayah is like the Ayah (about marrying slave-girls):


[مُحْصَنَـت غَيْرَ مُسَـفِحَـتٍ وَلاَ مُتَّخِذَاتِ أَخْدَانٍ]


(they should be chaste, not committing illegal sex, nor taking boyfriends.) [4:25] And His saying:


[مُحْصِنِينَ غَيْرَ مُسَافِحِينَ وَلاَ مُتَّخِذِى أَخْدَانٍ]


(desiring chastity not committing illegal sexual intercourse, nor taking them as girlfriends) [5:5]. Imam Ahmad recorded that `Abdullah bin `Amr, may Allah be pleased with him, said that a man among the believers asked the Messenger of Allah for permission (to marry) a woman known as Umm Mahzul, who used to commit adultery, and who had stated the condition that she should spend on him. So he asked the Messenger of Allah for permission, or he mentioned the matter to him. The Messenger of Allah recited to him:


[الزَّانِى لاَ يَنكِحُ إِلاَّ زَانِيَةً أَوْ مُشْرِكَةً وَالزَّانِيَةُ لاَ يَنكِحُهَآ إِلاَّ زَانٍ أَوْ مُشْرِكٌ وَحُرِّمَ ذلِكَ عَلَى الْمُؤْمِنِينَ ]


(The Zani marries not but a Zaniyah or a Mushrikah; and the Zaniyah, none marries her except Zani or a Mushrik. Such a thing is forbidden to the believers.) [24:3] Ibn Abi Hatim recorded that Abu Hurayrah said,


«لَا يَنْكِحُ الزَّانِي الْمَجْلُودُ إِلَّا مِثْلَهُ»


(A Zani who has been flogged should not marry anyone except someone who is like him.) A similar report was recorded by Abu Dawud in his Sunan.


[وَالَّذِينَ يَرْمُونَ الْمُحْصَنَـتِ ثُمَّ لَمْ يَأْتُواْ بِأَرْبَعَةِ شُهَدَآءَ فَاجْلِدُوهُمْ ثَمَانِينَ جَلْدَةً وَلاَ تَقْبَلُواْ لَهُمْ شَهَادَةً أَبَداً وَأُوْلَـئِكَ هُمُ الْفَـسِقُونَ إِلاَّ الَّذِينَ تَابُواْ مِن بَعْدِ ذَلِكَ وَأَصْلَحُواْ فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ ]


(4. And those who accuse chaste women, and produce not four witnesses, flog them with eighty stripes, and reject their testimony forever. They indeed are the rebellious.) (5. Except those who repent thereafter and do righteous deeds; (for such) verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.)



http://tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=24&tid=35505

 

[gangstaat]

So i was right. Thank you Bint Mohammed!

 

[Masria]

:
(3. The Zani marries not but a Zaniyah

Thank you so much BintMohamad but this does not really answer my question for me.

Zani =

Meaning of... Word: Zani
Meaning: One who has commited Zina - The act of commiting adultary (if married), or fornication (unmarried).
True Form: زاني
Grammar: person; word;

So if a Zani can be a married man, then he commits adultery not fornication. If the punishment for adultery is death how can a zani marry a zaniyah?

 

[BintMuhammad]

Thank you so much BintMohamad but this does not really answer my question for me.

Zani =

Meaning of... Word: Zani
Meaning: One who has commited Zina - The act of commiting adultary (if married), or fornication (unmarried).
True Form: زاني
Grammar: person; word;

So if a Zani can be a married man, then he commits adultery not fornication. If the punishment for adultery is death how can a zani marry a zaniyah?

:salam2:

Well, not all guilty of it are executed especially nowadays since most of us live in countries that does not implement that punishment.

 

[Masria]

:salam2:

Well, not all guilty of it are executed especially nowadays since most of us live in countries that does not implement that punishment.

Thank you for your patience with me, it is such a difficult question and I am asked about it so much by my famiy and friends and I dont know how to answer correctly.

Do you have any information on examples of when people in the time of Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) were not killed for this?

Your answer is very good in a modern context and I can explain this to people but for my mind I would like to really understand where the scholars rulings come from and how they decide that rajm is the punishment for adultery, as the word rajm is not used in the Quran.

 

[user expired!]

asalamualaykum,

as far as i know the Punishment differes depending on the situation.

If they ( the transgressors) are married and they have sexual intercourse with other then the spouse which is not Halal then they are known as Adulters and they have commited Adultary!

Under Islamic Law (shariah) there needs to be 4 witnesses and they have to see them actually doing the crime, My Local Imam said for example that if u tried to put string between them the string would not go through them!
then the punishment can be applied!

But if they are unnmarried and they have illegal sexual intercourse then are punished without the death sentence but are punished in other forms these people are Fornicaters.

I am still looking for the Daleel but i did ask my Local Imam this and his reply was similar to this.

and Allah knows Best

 

[AishaHadi]

as salaamu aleykum brothers and sisters

I have a question please about the punishment for zina. This issue has been troubling me for a long time and I read so many different opinions but none that make clear sense to me.

We know the punishment given by the Quran, it is very clear. The consensus of scholars state that the punishment for adultery (married person) is death by stoning. We also know that the narrator of the hadiths regarding rajm was asked whether this was before or after the verse in the Quran was revealed, and answered honestly "I do not know".

So please can someone explain verse 24:3 to me, how can dead bodies get married?

024.003
YUSUFALI: Let no man guilty of adultery or fornication marry and but a woman similarly guilty, or an Unbeliever: nor let any but such a man or an Unbeliever marry such a woman: to the Believers such a thing is forbidden.
PICKTHAL: The adulterer shall not marry save an adulteress or an idolatress, and the adulteress none shall marry save an adulterer or an idolater. All that is forbidden unto believers.
SHAKIR: The fornicator shall not marry any but a fornicatress or idolatress, and (as for) the fornicatress, none shall marry her but a fornicator or an idolater; and it is forbidden to the believers.

This verse is clearly speaking of adultery, not fornication so I am at a loss to understand the punishment of death.

Thnk you for any comments or further reading material you can provide.

:salam2:

If you read tafsir ibn kathir you will understand

If you read the tafsir of this ayah it explains to you the double meaning of [zaniyah and zani] The two different punishment of a zaniyah [who is married or a zaniyah who is not married]

The Explanation of the Prescribed Punishment for Zina (Illicit Sex)


Then Allah says:

[الزَّانِيَةُ وَالزَّانِى فَاجْلِدُواْ كُلَّ وَاحِدٍ مِّنْهُمَا مِاْئَةَ جَلْدَةٍ]​

(The Zaniyah and the Zani, flog each of them with a hundred stripes.)

This honorable Ayah contains the ruling on the law of retaliation for the person who commits illegal sex, and details of the punishment. Such a person will either be unmarried, meaning that he has never been married, or he will be married, meaning that he has had intercourse within the bounds of a lawful marriage, and he is free, adult and of sound mind. As for the virgin who is unwedded, the prescribed punishment is one hundred stripes, as stated in this Ayah. In addition to this he is to be banished from his homeland for one year, as was recorded in the Two Sahihs from Abu Hurayrah and Zayd bin Khalid Al-Juhani in the Hadith about the two bedouins who came to the Messenger of Allah . One of them said, "O Messenger of Allah, this son of mine was employed by this man, and committed Zina with his wife. I paid a ransom with him on behalf of my son one hundred sheep and a slave-girl, but when I asked the people of knowledge, they said that my son should be given one hundred stripes and banished for a year, and that this man's wife should be stoned to death.''

«وَالَّذِي نَفْسِي بِيَدِهِ لَأَقْضِيَنَّ بَيْنَكُمَا بِكِتَابِ اللهِ تَعَالى، الْوَلِيدَةُ وَالْغَنَمُ رَدٌّ عَلَيْكَ، وَعَلى ابْنِكَ جَلْدُ مِائَةٍ وَتَغْرِيبُ عَامٍ، وَاغْدُ يَا أُنَيْسُ لِرَجُلٍ مِنْ أَسْلَمَ إِلَى امْرَأَةِ هذَا،فَإِنِ اعْتَرَفَتْ فَارْجُمْهَا»​

(By the One in Whose Hand is my soul, I will judge between you both according to the Book of Allah. Take back the slave-girl and sheep, and your son is to be given one hundred stripes and banished for one year. O Unays -- he said to a man from the tribe of Aslam -- go to this man's wife, and if she confesses, then stone her to death.) Unays went to her and she confessed, so he stoned her to death. This indicates that if the person who is guilty of illegal sex is a virgin and unmarried, he should be banished in addition to being given one hundred stripes. But if married, meaning he has had intercourse within the bounds of lawful marriage, and he is free, adult and of sound mind, then he should be stoned to death. Imam Malik recorded that `Umar, may Allah be pleased with him, stood up and praised and glorified Allah, then he said; "O people! Allah sent Muhammad with the truth, and revealed to him the Book. One of the things that was revealed to him was the Ayah of stoning to death, which we have recited and understood. The Messenger of Allah carried out the punishment of stoning and after him we did so, but I am afraid that as time goes by, some will say that they did not find the Ayah of stoning in the Book of Allah, and they will go astray because they abandoned one of the obligations revealed by Allah. Stoning is something that is prescribed in the Book of Allah for the person -- man or woman -- who commits illegal sex, if he or she is married, if decisive evidence is produced, or if pregnancy results from that, or if they confess to it.'' It was also recorded in the Two Sahihs in the lengthy Hadith of Malik, from which we have quoted briefly only the portion that is relevant to the current discussion.



http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=24&tid=35488

 

[q8penpals]

asalamualaykum,

as far as i know the Punishment differes depending on the situation.

If they ( the transgressors) are married and they have sexual intercourse with other then the spouse which is not Halal then they are known as Adulters and they have commited Adultary!

Under Islamic Law (shariah) there needs to be 4 witnesses and they have to see them actually doing the crime, My Local Imam said for example that if u tried to put string between them the string would not go through them!
then the punishment can be applied!

and Allah knows Best

Salam

Even in the most sexually-open countries, where the heck would someone be committing adultery in front of 4 other people?! Maybe this is a clarifier to make sure that we don't just randomly give out death sentences?

Lana

 

[Masria]

Tank you everyone for taking the time to answer my question but I may not be explaining my question very well.

We know there is no verse about stoning but I can accept the consensus on the grounds that anyone that commits this sin with 4 witnesses watching cannot be considered sane in my opinion, so this should never come about.

My trouble is understand that in relation to verse 24:3. It clearly states that no man guilty of adultery OR fornication ..... We know a man or woman that is not married commits fornication and a married person commits adultery.

So if a person found GUILTY of adultery, as per verse 24:3, is to be stoned to death how can they get married??

Thank you for your patience.

 

[BintMuhammad]

Assalaamu alaikum,

So if a person found GUILTY of adultery, as per verse 24:3, is to be stoned to death how can they get married??

I understand your confusion but it's really easy...

Not all guilty of this act is found or accused guilty officially. So, for example if the woman is aware that the man is an adulterer (even though he is not brought to the court to be accused) then the woman is also considered an adulterer.

Your confusion is between being guilty officially and guilty without bringing the issue to the court to be sentenced to death (I hope I'm clear with this ) Ofcourse, if he's stoned to death, how can he or she marry? So that verse clearly is referring to those who were not sentenced to death (either because he was not reported or he lives in a place where that punishment is not implemented).

 

[Masria]

Assalaamu alaikum,



I understand your confusion but it's really easy...

Not all guilty of this act is found or accused guilty officially. So, for example if a woman is aware that this certain man is an adulterer (even though he is not brought to the court to be accused) then the woman is also considered an adulterer.

Your confusion is between being guilty officially and guilty without bringing the issue to the court to be sentenced to death (I hope I'm clear with this ) Ofcourse, if he's stoned to death, how can he or she marry? So that verse clearly is referring to those who were not sentenced to death (either because he was not reported or he lives in a place where that punishment is not implemented).

wa aleykum salaam sis

Thank you that is a wonderful explanation and yes I was confusing physically guilty with 'found guilty' by a court. So of course if I know a man has done this I should not let a good sister marry him. Now I understand, as you say it is so easy when it is explained in this way.

 

[BintMuhammad]

wa aleykum salaam sis

Thank you that is a wonderful explanation and yes I was confusing physically guilty with 'found guilty' by a court. So of course if I know a man has done this I should not let a good sister marry him. Now I understand, as you say it is so easy when it is explained in this way.

:salam2:

Alhamdulillaah sis