Reluctant to Post This Question

Frank_H_Smith

New Revert 2010
I have studied most Christian Theology and am becoming familiar with Islam. One of the divisions within Christianity is based on two concepts or the understanding of two concepts: 1). Predestination-Allah is in complete control and causes everything that happens to happen including who believe and who doesn't believe and every other event whether it is views as beneficial to individuals or devastating.

And, 2). One Saved, Always Saved. That it is impossible for a believe to be lost.

Unfortunately, I have always felt that the Christian Scriptures refuted these suppositions. I say "unfortunately" because I am aware that my logical and Scripture support is contrary to what Islam teaches.

I was reluctant to post this question because I love Allah and Islam so much and because I didn't want to place a stumbling block in the path of any who may wonder. For this reason, I am not posting the voluminous Scriptural and logical "evidence" from the Christian Perspective.

My life would be so much easier if I could just say "OK, this is what we believe, than this is what I will accept." Unfortunately, In Christianity there is a scripture that says, "Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

Min Fudlak/Fudlik, please remember me in dua. I am struggling with this. I wish I were the kind of person who could accept teachings without always trying to harmonize them with previous teaching:Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

I understand that Allah has omniscience and omnipotence and consequently knows the beginning from the end; however, I am hung up on freewill which in my mind is necessary for judgment to be justice. If a person has no choice than how can they be held accountable.

I am not intentionally trying to cause doubt in anyone. I am honestly trying to understand. If a person willfully disobeys Allah's Commands, with knowledge that doing so will incur wrath than the wrath is Justified. But if the person has no choice but to disobey than how can he be accountable?

If this thread might cause any to be perplexed, I asked that the moderators remove it.

I am not here to plant any seeds of doubt among the brothers and sisters or to cause any to question what Allah has given us.
 

mosabaig

Junior Member
Mashallah

:salam2: Peace to all

We must ask all the questions come to our mind keeping in mind..

1. Islam is inclusive of all the previous religions and thousands of prophets from Adam (AS) to Muhammad (S)

2. Quran is the final and only protected book of Allah, in which Shiriah (Laws) are updated and completed.

3. Scholars of Islam who have studied Islam are only qualified to give opinion when we do not understand some thing from books.

4. After all we cannot become doctor lowers and engineers just by reading book our self without any supervision, why then in religion we thing we do not need Scholars opinion.

5. Shaitan is the enemy of us, and he is most experience as he has no other work but we do. So to save our self from all his tricks we always need Allah's help and protection. We sometimes get so carried away that we do not ask help from Allah, as this is the most easy and direct way.

Allah may save you and me from the tricks of Shaitan, and remember Allah regularly. (Ameen)
 

ximkoyra

Junior Member
I think there are a couple different schools of thought regarding this.

The way I like to think about "free will" is by framing it as "options" since if we are to believe in pre-destination, then we have no "free will" of our own. Everything will happen according to Allah's will.

I'm going to take the story you posted in your other thread as an example:

You had several "options" as to how you could have responded to that hitchhiker. You could have picked him up, ignored him, ran him over with your car, pulled aside and given him some money, etc. You chose to pick him up. In hindsight, you can say that it was predestined for you to pick him up and everything happened according to Allah's will.

Since we cannot know Allah's will except of what He tells us, there is no way to know what our predestination is. This makes us responsible for the options that we take.

I only wish I could be more articulate. I know I'm being very confusing.


Actually, I just thought of a great example demonstrating free will and predestination working in harmony. Are you familiar with the TV show "Lost"? I can write out what happened if you don't already know. It was a pretty amazing depiction of free will and predestination working side by side.
 

stargazer

Clear Skies!
salam brother.

when I was a truth seeker, the same question was bugging me on and on again.

Remeber this, In the house of islam we were taught that

*Allah knows everything and he would know everything you and I woud do.

*However Allah does not force anyone to choose a particular path. Many people do not know that.

*In the life time of Umar RA a thief was questioned as to the reason why he stole. The thief answers that Allah had already predestined that on him. Umar RA chop of his hands for stealing and flogged him for lying.

*Allah had set many paths infront of us. Its is that we have a lot of pathways infront of us. But he will not force anyone to choose a particular path yet Allah had given the ability for each human being to realized the truth and the falsehood.

*The teacher commented on a student. She said that this particular student will not pass. And that was what happened. The student did not pass because the teacher said it, but teacher knew the capability of the student. Just like that even though Allah had not forced us to choose the numerous pathways infront of us, he would know which path we would choose out of his knowledge but that does not mean he is forcing us to be a particular person in life.
 

ximkoyra

Junior Member
I also found this that I thought was pretty good:

http://www.al-islam.org/inquiries/9.html


I really liked this verse:

"Surely the Almighty changes not the condition of a people unless they change that which is in themselves." 13:11


Reminds me of an example my mother used to use:

"To turn on the light, you will have to get up and flip the switch. If you just sit there waiting for the light to turn on, then it is God's will that you do so. If you decide to get up and flip the switch, then this is also God's will. Nothing in the universe can escape God's will."
 

arzafar

Junior Member
Could you explain to me the Islamic view of the Divine Will and Decree (al-qada’ wa’l-qadar)? What should I believe with regard to this topic?

Praise be to Allaah and blessings and peace be upon the Messenger of Allaah.

We could talk at length about the Islamic view of the Divine will and decree but to make the subject easier to understand, we will start with an overview of this topic, then explain as much as space permits, asking Allaah to benefit us thereby and to accept our efforts.

Note that what is meant by belief in al-qada’ (the Divine will) is: certain belief that everything that happens in this universe happens by the will and decree of Allaah.

Belief in al-qadar (the Divine decree) is the sixth pillar of faith, and no one’s faith is complete without it. In Saheeh Muslim (8) it is narrated that Ibn ‘Umar (may Allaah be pleased with him) heard that some people were denying al-qadar. He said: “If I meet these people I will tell them that I have nothing to do with them and they have nothing to do with me. By the One by Whom ‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Umar swore, if one of them had gold equivalent to Mount Uhud and he spent it, Allaah would not accept it from him unless he believed in al-qadar.”

You should also note that belief in al-qadar is not valid unless you believe in the four aspects of al-qadar, which are as follows:

1 – Belief that Allaah knows all things, in general terms and in detail, from eternity to eternity. Not a single atom is unknown to Him in the heavens or on earth.

2 – Belief that Allaah has decreed all things in al-Lawh al-Mahfooz, fifty thousand years before He created the heavens and the earth.

3 – Belief that the will of Allaah is irresistable and His decree is comprehensive, so nothing happens in this universe, good or bad, but by His will.

4 – Belief that all that exists was created by Allaah. He is the Creator of all beings and the Creator of their attributes and actions, as He says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Such is Allaah, your Lord! Laa Ilaaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He), the Creator of all things”

[al-An’aam 6:102]

Correct belief in al-qadar also involves believing in the following:

That the individual has free will by means of which he acts, as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“To whomsoever among you who wills to walk straight”

[al-Takweer 81:28]

“Allaah burdens not a person beyond his scope”

[al-Baqarah 2:286]

That a person’s will and ability do not operate outside the will and decree of Allaah, Who is the One Who has given him that ability and made him able to distinguish (between good and evil) and make his choice, as He says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And you cannot will unless (it be) that Allaah wills the Lord of the ‘Aalameen (mankind, jinn and all that exists)”

[al-Takweer 81:29]

That al-qadar is Allaah’s plan for His creation. What He has shown us of it, we know and believe in, and what He has hidden from us, we accept and believe in. We do not dispute with Allaah concerning His actions and rulings with our limited minds and comprehension, rather we believe in Allaah’s complete justice and wisdom, and that He is not to be asked about what He does, may He be glorified and praised.


This is a summary of the belief of the first generations concerning this important topic. We will discuss some of this in more detail below, asking Allaah to help us to say the right thing:

1 – The meaning of al-qada’ wa’l-qadar in Arabic:

The word qada’ means perfection and completion, and the word qadar means evaluating and planning.

2 – Definition of al-qada’ wa’l-qadar in Islamic terminology:

Qadar means Allaah’s decree of all things from eternity, and His knowledge that they will come to pass at the times that are known to Him and in the specific manner that He has decreed and willed. They will happen the way they are meant to and the way they are created.

3 – Is there a difference between al-qada’ and al-qadar?

Some of the scholars said that there was a difference between them, but perhaps the most correct view is that there is no difference in meaning between al-qada’ and al-qadar, and that each of them points to the meaning of the other. There is no clear evidence in the Qur’aan or Sunnah to indicate that there is a difference between them. The scholars are agreed that the one may be applied to the other, but it should be noted that the word qadar is most usually used in the texts of the Qur’aan and Sunnah, which indicates that we must believe in this pillar. And Allaah knows best.

4 – The status of belief in al-qadar in Islam:

Belief in al-qadar is one of the six pillars of faith which were mentioned in the words of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) when Jibreel (peace be upon him) asked him about faith (eemaan). He said: “(It is) to believe in Allaah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, the Last Day, and to believe in the Divine will and decree (al-qadar) both good and bad.” Narrated by Muslim, 8. Al-qadar is also mentioned in the Qur’aan, where Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Verily, We have created all things with Qadar (Divine Preordainments of all things before their creation as written in the Book of Decrees Al-Lawh Al-Mahfooz)”
[al-Qamar 54:49]

“And the Command of Allaah is a decree determined [qadran maqdooran]”

[al-Ahzaab 33:38]

5 – Aspects of belief in al-qadar:

Note, may Allaah help you to do that which pleases Him, that belief in al-qadar cannot be complete until you believe in the following four aspects of this doctrine:

(a) Knowledge: this is the belief that the knowledge of Allaah encompasses all things and not a single atom in the heavens or on earth falls outside of His knowledge. Allaah knew all of His creation before He created them. He knew what they would do by means of His ancient and eternal knowledge. There is a great deal of evidence that points to this such as the verses in which Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“He is Allaah, beside Whom Laa ilaaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He) the All-Knower of the unseen and the seen. He is the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful”

[al-Hashr 59:22]

“and that Allaah surrounds all things in (His) Knowledge”

[al-Talaaq 65:12]

(b) Writing: this is the belief that Allaah has written the decrees concerning all created beings in al-Lawh al-Mahfooz. The evidence for that is the verse in which He says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Know you not that Allaah knows all that is in the heaven and on the earth? Verily, it is (all) in the Book (al-Lawh al-Mahfooz). Verily, that is easy for Allaah”

[al-Hajj 22:16]And the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Allaah wrote the decrees concerning all created beings fifty thousand years before He created the heavens and the earth.” Narrated by Muslim, 2653.

(c) Will: this is the belief that everything that happens in this universe happens by the will of Allaah. Whatever Allaah wills happens and whatever He does not will does not happen. Nothing exists outside of His will. The evidence for that is in the verses where Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And never say of anything, ‘I shall do such and such thing tomorrow.’

24. Except (with the saying), ‘If Allaah wills!’”

[al-Kahf 18:23, 24]

“And you cannot will unless (it be) that Allaah wills the Lord of the ‘Aalameen (mankind, jinn and all that exists)”

[al-Takweer 81:29]

(d) Creation: this is the belief that Allaah is the Creator of all things, including people’s actions. Nothing happens in this universe but He is its Creator, because He says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Allaah is the Creator of all things”

[al-Zumar 39:62]

“While Allaah has created you and what you make”

[al-Saaffaat 37:96]

And the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Allaah has made every doer and what he does.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari in Khalq Af’aal al-‘Ibaad (25) and by Ibn Abi ‘Aasim in al-Sunnah (257 and 358); classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in al-Saheehah, 1637.

Shaykh Ibn Sa’di (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: Just as Allaah is the One Who created them – meaning people – He has also created that by means of which they act, namely their abilities and will, then they do various actions of obedience and sin, by the abilities and will which Allaah has created. (al-Durrah al-Bahiyyah Sharh al-Qaseedah al-Taa’iyyah, p. 18).

Warning against arguing about issues of al-qadar on the basis of (human) reasoning:

Belief in al-qadar is the real test of the extent of a person’s belief in Allaah. It is the true test of how much a person really knows about his Lord and what results from this knowledge of certain and sincere faith in Allaah, and His attributes of majesty and perfection. That is because al-qadar raises many questions for the one who gives free rein to his reasoning to try to fully comprehend it. There have been many disputes concerning the issue of al-qadar and many people have engaged in debates and misinterpreted the verses of the Qur’aan that mention it. Indeed, the enemies of Islam in all eras have provoked confusion in the Muslims’ beliefs by discussing the issue of al-qadar and stirring up doubts about it. So no one can have true and certain faith except the one who knows Allaah by His beautiful names and sublime attributes, submitting to His commands with peace of mind and trusting in his Lord. In that case no doubts or specious arguments can find a way into his heart. Undoubtedly this is the greatest proof that belief in al-qadar is more important than belief in the other pillars of faith, and that the human mind cannot independently come to understand al-qadar, because al-qadar is one of the mysteries of Allaah in His creation; whatever Allaah has disclosed to us in His Book or on the lips of His Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) we know, accept and believe in, and whatever our Lord has not told us, we believe in and we believe in His perfect justice and wisdom, and that He is not to be questioned about what He does, but they will be questioned.

And Allaah knows best. May Allaah send blessings and peace upon His slave and Prophet Muhammad and upon his family and companions.

See: A’laam al-Sunnah al-Manshoorah, 147; al-Qada’ wa’l-Qadar fi Daw’ il-Kitaab wa’l-Sunnah by Shaykh Dr. ‘Abd al-Rahmaan al-Mahmoud; al-Eemaan bi’l-Qada’ wa’l-Qadar by Shaykh Muhammad al-Hamd.

Islam Q&A
http://islamqa.com/en/ref/49004

also read
http://islamqa.com/en/ref/112094
 

weakslave

Junior Member
Brother Frank, InshaAllaah you will be guided and protected. Your tone reeks of politeness towards this religion, and I am attracted to your contentment in Islam. With this mindset, inshaAllaah you would never be lost. I ask Allaah to strengthen our imaan on His path.

This thought is but a challenge, from non other than the devil himself. Of course it was the will of Allaah that you be faced with it, and Allaah willing you will come out stronger than ever before.

:jazaak: brother arzafar and brother ayman1.

Keep in mind the following if you will:

- Allaah knows everything, but He has given us free will. Allaah knows everything, but He has given us free will. Allaah knows everything, but He has given us free will...

At the heart of the problem lies the solution. These are the facts, and whether our mind can grasp them or not, nothing can change them. The prophet :saw: warned us not to get involved with matters of predestiny because very few truly would understand such matters.

And to understand this matter, or in fact any matter, is to understand our shortcomings. The water might be murky, but it should be clear to you that the water is murky, hence there is no need to question the state of the water.

Ultimately, what kind of Lord would Allaah be if He didn't know everything? He would be incomplete, insufficient. That is where you must seek refuge, in the Strength, the Power, the Knowledge, the Indefiniteness of the Most Merciful Creator. He can see you, but you cannot see Him. He knows everything, while we know nothing. He controls everything while we control nothing.
 

BigAk

Junior Member
This is an excellent question for Dr. Gary Miller. Do you listen to Dr. Miller brother Frank ?

.
 

Frank_H_Smith

New Revert 2010
Shahaba/Kalima

As Salamu 'Alaykum,

This Friday I will, Insha Allah, being attending a Mosque where I will profess:
"'Ashadu 'an laa ilaha illallah, wa 'ashadu 'anna Muhammaddur rasulullah."

I am excited and a bit nervous since writing la ilaha illallah, Muhammadur rasulullah is very easy where pronouncing Arabi correctly may not be so easy.

I will keep you posted as to how it goes.

Also, the Islamic Center has Sunday classes for new reverts' and, consequently, I will begin to learn the basics of my new found faith in ways which will allow me to practice it properly. Alhumdulillah!

This site has been such a blessing as have other sites in introducing me to Islam and hopefully, Insha Allah, I will be able to contribute more meaningful posts as I grow in knowledge.

Subhan Allah!

BigAk
I have not yet listened to Dr. Gary Miller; however, I will.

Weakslave, thank you for your honesty in reminding me that it isn't necessary to understand why the water is murky to know not to drink it.

Ayman1, As always your guidance is appreciated.

Arzafar, I thank you for your post. I know that Allah is Omniscience. It is the idea or compulsion and not knowledge that was challenging me.

Ximkoya, thank you for the link.

Stargazer, I appreciate your post.

mosabaig, I agree that we can not become doctors, lawyers, or engineers without supervision. It is difficult for me not to extrapolate that which I have learned in other disciplines to new ones.

I hope that I have not failed to acknowledge anyone for their time and effort in posting to this thread.

Friday, I guess is the 'official beginning' of my life as a Muslim. Insha Allah, I will become a light to others. At the risk of immodesty, Allah has blessed me with a genius level IQ, an honest heart, and a desire to be of service to Him in whatever capacity He chooses for me. In the past, I was a pastor and as such my calling was to share the love of Allah with his creation through that which was revealed through prophets prior to Muhammad ( Salla Allahu 'Alayhi Wa Sallem). Now, that I have come to understand " la li la ha illa Allah wa Muhammaddur rasulullah" I hope to be used to share that message.
 

a_stranger

Junior Member
:salam2:

I think that Allah sobhanahu wa taala gave us all free will and we are responsible for our deed........ more :

4:126 But to Allah belong all things in the heavens and on earth: And He it is that Encompasseth all things. Quran

Our tinny will is within the things that Allah sobhanahu wa taala Encompasseth we (our free will ) everything else are too little to escape the unlimited wisdom and knowledge We need to know who are we and who is our Lord to understand things clearly and never step out of our integral ignorance and humility :salah: :astag:

with regards
 

salahdin

Junior Member
سۡمِ ٱللهِ ٱلرَّحۡمَـٰنِ ٱلرَّحِيمِ







What is the Issue of PreDestination in Islam? - Part 1






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What is the Issue of PreDestination in Islam? - Part 2






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And welcome to ISLAM .



“Leave the world to those who hanker after it, as they leave the Afterlife to its seekers. And be in this world as the bee: it eats only good, produces only good, and when it rests upon anything it neither ruins it nor deflowers it.”
by Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyyah
 

Frank_H_Smith

New Revert 2010
As Salamu 'Alaykum,

Shokran for your help.

Breaking the Shahada into the individual words is very helpful:
Ash-hadu an=I testify
la=no
ilaha=god, diety
illa=but
Allah
wa=and
ash hadu anna= testify I
Muhammadan=Muhammad
Rasul= messenger
Allah


Also, thank you for posting the video about predestination. They helped clarify the Islamic perspective.
 

katieanneb

Junior Member
Assalemu alaikom,
First, I would like to congratulate Frank on his taking "shahada"! I took my "sahada" over 25 years ago, and I have never regretted it and I never will, God willing. It has really been so enlightening reading your posts on the forum. I was never really educated about christianity and sort of "bumped" into Islam from my husband. It is so refreshing to experiance this kind of open discussion about issues which are so important in such a cultivated and civilised manner. I crave this kind of discussion, but cannot find anyone around me with this kind of background, and unfortunately in the family and country where I live now, my intellectual nature is completely lost!
I don't think I would be a match for your IQ, but I will continue to read your posts with great interest as they lighten up my soul, in a world I find so vulgar around me!
Why can't all Muslims be like this and discuss things in a rational, cultivated way?
Anyway, I wish you and your wife the best of this life and the herafter. I can tell the depth of your conviction. Indeed, Allah says a strong believer is a better the a weak believer, and I believe this strength comes from knowledge, and that you will be a great gift to Islam.
I ask you and the other members of the forum to pray for my family, who are commited christians, to be enlightened as you have been. May Allah protect and guide us all.
Wa salem.
 

Frank_H_Smith

New Revert 2010
As Salamu 'alykum,

I would like to respond to Sister Katieanneb's post. I have been truly blessed by Allah in that I was born with a high IQ, adopted by a middle class Aunt and Uncle who not only provided me with a beautiful shelter, nice new clothes, and in comparison to many of my biological brothers and sisters lots of "stuff.

My adopted mother was a beautiful woman who was very kind and goodhearted. She showered me with love and care as a child.

My adopted father who was my biological uncle was a good, hardworking, handsome man who was very physically strong; however, he was comfortable with emotions as many American men his age were raised to believe that it was a sign of weakness to be emotional.

Both my adopted parents were intelligent, skilled, and proficient in managing their finances which allow me to have a very easy childhood. The only work I had to do as a child was to help my father on his truck (he was self employed).

However, as a child, my heroes were soldier (warriors) and at a very early age, I knew that I wanted to serve in the military. I started studying Karate under a world class instructor at the age of 13 and continued to study and practice martial arts throughout my life until a number of years ago when I re-injured my spine which I had originally broken a couple of decades earlier in a sky diving accident.

I joined the military at the age of 17 and was quickly promote to the rank of Sergeant prior to my 19th birthday. I volunteered for Vietnam and received my orders shortly after my 18th birthday. I wanted to be like the older friends I had who had all served in combat, had medals, and stories about their lives that seemed like something from the movies (cinema). In fact, my first time in the jungle on patrol through the Ashau Valley of Vietnam, I had to keep telling myself that it was real and not a movie.

I joined the Army as a kid and became a man very quickly. For the first four to six months, I didn't believe in Allah or anything that I couldn't verify existed. I would often threaten this one Christian private who would try to talk to me about "God". Something happened while I was in "the bush" and when I returned to base camp, I got very drunk at the NCO club (Non-Commissioned Officers' club and missed the only formation that we ever had at Camp Eagle the whole time I was there. The Staff Sergeant who out ranked me by one rank and was in charge of the aid station at base camp told me he was going to cancel my two week R&R to The States. I went to my "hootch" and got one of my grenades that I still had from "the bush" and pulled the pin and headed to the Staff Sergeant's "hootch." On the way, I met the Christian Private who talked me out of killing the Staff Sergeant and apparently let the Staff Sergeant know how close he came to being killed because shortly after I put the pin back in the grenade, the Staff Sergeant came to me and told me that he decided to let me take my leave home after all.

While at home, I discovered that my first girlfriend had a new boyfriend, most of the guys my age were still hanging on the corner being kids in High School, and home wasn't home any more (literally). My parents had sold our family home and moved about thirty miles away and my dad had moved his business as well. I went to a dance and one or two people said they were wondering where I had been because they hadn't seen me lately. Later that night, I got into a fight with a very large college football player and we nearly killed each other.

My parents new home was near a wooded mountain and I spent a lot of my time near a pond on the mountain asking Allah (who I thought was called God) if he existed to show me. (Please remember that I was only eighteen at that time.

Upon returning to Vietnam, I was "fed up" with being a tough mean person who few people liked and most with any sense feared. The Christian asked me if I want to hear him and a new friend he made play some songs at the Chapel (It turned out that the Christian private was a world class guitarist.)
Before they started to play that asked me if I want to say "the prayer." I told them that I hadn't prayed since I discovered there wasn't a Santa Claus and didn't know how. They said to talk to Allah (who they referred to as God) from my heart. I don't think I got more than a few words out of my mouth before I was on my knees crying and asking Allah to forgive me. When I stood up, I was a different person.

Since then, I had "my share" of sadness, heartbreak, loss, and didn't always pass the tests which Allah provided for my growth.

The reason I am posting all of this is because we are who we are because Allah causes us to be who we are. He loves us and is always providing opportunities for us to grow into who we could be.

As my youngest son (who is approaching 40) says "I am I!

We are all who we are. I don't know why some of us like myself seem to always have the bad in my life work for my good. I hope that everyone understands that I am a babe in Islam and still rely on The Bible Knowledge to explain spiritual things; consequently, even though what we now have as The Bible contains or is made to appear to contain many theological concepts that are incorrect. However, although I do not yet fully understand Islam's Perfect Way and the following quote has some statements that are purely Christian, I still believe the last line is very true:
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Rom 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Rom 8:14 لأَنَّ كُلَّ الَّذِينَ يَنْقَادُونَ بِرُوحِ اللهِ فَأُولَئِكَ هُمْ أَبْنَاءُ اللهِ.
Rom 8:15 إِذْ لَمْ تَأْخُذُوا رُوحَ الْعُبُودِيَّةِ أَيْضاً لِلْخَوْفِ بَلْ أَخَذْتُمْ رُوحَ التَّبَنِّي الَّذِي بِهِ نَصْرُخُ: «يَا أَبَا الآبُ!».
Rom 8:16 اَلرُّوحُ نَفْسُهُ أَيْضاً يَشْهَدُ لأَرْوَاحِنَا أَنَّنَا أَوْلاَدُ اللهِ.
Rom 8:17 فَإِنْ كُنَّا أَوْلاَداً فَإِنَّنَا وَرَثَةٌ أَيْضاً وَرَثَةُ اللهِ وَوَارِثُونَ مَعَ الْمَسِيحِ. إِنْ كُنَّا نَتَأَلَّمُ مَعَهُ لِكَيْ نَتَمَجَّدَ أَيْضاً مَعَهُ.
Rom 8:18 فَإِنِّي أَحْسِبُ أَنَّ آلاَمَ الزَّمَانِ الْحَاضِرِ لاَ تُقَاسُ بِالْمَجْدِ الْعَتِيدِ أَنْ يُسْتَعْلَنَ فِينَا.
Rom 8:19 لأَنَّ انْتِظَارَ الْخَلِيقَةِ يَتَوَقَّعُ اسْتِعْلاَنَ أَبْنَاءِ اللهِ.
Rom 8:20 إِذْ أُخْضِعَتِ الْخَلِيقَةُ لِلْبُطْلِ - لَيْسَ طَوْعاً بَلْ مِنْ أَجْلِ الَّذِي أَخْضَعَهَا - عَلَى الرَّجَاءِ.
Rom 8:21 لأَنَّ الْخَلِيقَةَ نَفْسَهَا أَيْضاً سَتُعْتَقُ مِنْ عُبُودِيَّةِ الْفَسَادِ إِلَى حُرِّيَّةِ مَجْدِ أَوْلاَدِ اللهِ.
Rom 8:22 فَإِنَّنَا نَعْلَمُ أَنَّ كُلَّ الْخَلِيقَةِ تَئِنُّ وَتَتَمَخَّضُ مَعاً إِلَى الآنَ.
Rom 8:23 وَلَيْسَ هَكَذَا فَقَطْ بَلْ نَحْنُ الَّذِينَ لَنَا بَاكُورَةُ الرُّوحِ نَحْنُ أَنْفُسُنَا أَيْضاً نَئِنُّ فِي أَنْفُسِنَا مُتَوَقِّعِينَ التَّبَنِّيَ فِدَاءَ أَجْسَادِنَا.
Rom 8:24 لأَنَّنَا بِالرَّجَاءِ خَلَصْنَا. وَلَكِنَّ الرَّجَاءَ الْمَنْظُورَ لَيْسَ رَجَاءً لأَنَّ مَا يَنْظُرُهُ أَحَدٌ كَيْفَ يَرْجُوهُ أَيْضاً؟
Rom 8:25 وَلَكِنْ إِنْ كُنَّا نَرْجُو مَا لَسْنَا نَنْظُرُهُ فَإِنَّنَا نَتَوَقَّعُهُ بِالصَّبْرِ.
Rom 8:26 وَكَذَلِكَ الرُّوحُ أَيْضاً يُعِينُ ضَعَفَاتِنَا لأَنَّنَا لَسْنَا نَعْلَمُ مَا نُصَلِّي لأَجْلِهِ كَمَا يَنْبَغِي. وَلَكِنَّ الرُّوحَ نَفْسَهُ يَشْفَعُ فِينَا بِأَنَّاتٍ لاَ يُنْطَقُ بِهَا.
Rom 8:27 وَلَكِنَّ الَّذِي يَفْحَصُ الْقُلُوبَ يَعْلَمُ مَا هُوَ اهْتِمَامُ الرُّوحِ لأَنَّهُ بِحَسَبِ مَشِيئَةِ اللهِ يَشْفَعُ فِي الْقِدِّيسِينَ.
Rom 8:28 وَنَحْنُ نَعْلَمُ أَنَّ كُلَّ الأَشْيَاءِ تَعْمَلُ مَعاً لِلْخَيْرِ لِلَّذِينَ يُحِبُّونَ اللهَ الَّذِينَ هُمْ مَدْعُوُّونَ حَسَبَ قَصْدِهِ.

So, each of us are who we are because of who we are as a result of our birth order and family, our culture (memes), our friends, our government, our religion, our experiences, etc. When all is said and done, anyone who is a true Muslim in the real sense of the word ص. is one who is on the right path in that they are submitting to Allah. We are who Allah made us and is making us. So, we must accept and love each other with our faults and differences as long as it is not offensive to Allah.

Sorry if I posted too much or seemed to be "preaching." I just know that all Muslims who are in submission to Allah are my brothers and sisters and I love them (sometimes in spite of themselves) as I hope they do me.
 

katieanneb

Junior Member
Assalemu alaikum,
Once again brother, thankyou. I'm in my late 40's, so maybe I can consider you like an older brother or uncle!
I understand completely what you say about how our lives shape us. I just have (or had) so many aspirations bred into me by my parents, which are being systematically destroyed as I struggle to cope with the lack of understanding around me. I find it soul destroying when people act with total disregard for one's feelings, aspirations, and attempts to live Islam as a spiritual journey, and all I see is ignorance, jealousy and selfishness. I suppose, after all, all that happens to us is a test of faith, but my heart hurts and I've just about had enough. I wasn't brought up like this, and I still get hurt by others' vulgarity and lack of empathy. This means I try to keep away from people as much as poss, so I feel isolated.
I do though have 6 beautiful children, alhamdoulillah, who light up my life, but they too feel the same frustration as I do. It would be nice simply to get up and move, but commitments here make that more or less impossible.
I suppose I'll just have to make the best of things, and trust in Allah. After all, this is not the end of the story, there's another life to come in Paradise for those who are patient, inshallah. And I have my job, and a bed to sleep in and enough to eat, wear good clothes, so alhamdoulillah. I just wish people could get over their petty everyday squabbles, and think about more important issues and in a more intellectual way. It really bogs me down.
Thanks again for your story. Coming back to your original reason for posting, I suppose each and every one of us is an example of how things are set out by Allah for us in advance. Who would have thought that I, a middle class British girl would become Muslim and end up here in a small town in Tunisia and be communicating with you and the others on the forum over the internet??? Allah moves in mysterious ways, as they say!!
Please give my best regards to your family. Your younger sister (or may I say niece) in Islam.
 
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