Swines and Apes

[followeroftheway]

I am new on this forum but hope to be able to dialog with those who seek to worship God in sincerity and truth. I am a Christian minister and am hoping to establish contact with those who can help me to better understand some of the practices and beliefs of Islam. For example, I once heard a Israeli radio stations interview with an Arab man about Jews being turned into swines and apes. It sounded comical, but the Arab man insisted that it was true. I looked for such a passage and found a similar one in the Quran but it did not mention Jews. Can anyone give me any light on this.
Peace

 

[sazk]

reverend,

the verse is chapter 2 verse 65. it does not mean jews are swines and apes. it means a section of the children of israel were turned into that because they violated a covenant with God.

if you think that is a ridiculous statement, it would only be as ridiculous as someone parting the red sea, or someone healing lepers.

now tell me why does Mark chapter 16, verse 17-18 says when they drink poison, it will not hurt them at all. sounds comical to me. can you please explain it?

 

[sazk]

you may want to look at Quran's chapter 2 verse 61 to 66 in order to understand what happened. remember, don't take verses out of context.

 

[Al-Kashmiri]

Welcome to the forums.

As sazk stated it refers to a portion of the children of Israel from the past.

If you find it comical, remember that Allaah created Adam from nothing, without any parents. He created Jesus without a father. He created the swine and the ape too; he created everything. So transforming a group of people into swine/apes would rationally seem easier than creating them from nothing.

There are many things that Muslims, Christians and Jews believe that members of other faiths will laugh at. They laugh even at the thought of Angels to begin with... So it may sound comical, but one who believes and knows that Allaah/God is all-capable, will know that such a matter is easy and possible.

Hope it helps.

 

[Salem9022]

Also welcome to the Forum, We don't mean to scare you, btw, but you are most welcome to Ask us about Islam Mainly Tawheed(Islamic Monotheism), we don't need to go to the Bible since many of us were former christians anyways we probably know the Bible more then you with all due respect, We would rather talk about Quran. So Ask us any questions you have about Allah or Islamic Monotheism.

 

[sazk]

well he can ask anything about the Quran and how islam was spread also. we have nothing to hide. the Quran is plainly there for all of mankind to read.

but instead of just coming up with random questions i think it would be best if the reverend read the bible cover to cover and also the quran cover to cover. then he would be in a better position to ask questions that seem to confuse him.

i'm surprised he thought only blacks are converting! if this is the way all ministers jump to conclusions.........

 

[followeroftheway]

Apes and Swines

reverend,

the verse is chapter 2 verse 65. it does not mean jews are swines and apes. it means a section of the children of israel were turned into that because they violated a covenant with God.

if you think that is a ridiculous statement, it would only be as ridiculous as someone parting the red sea, or someone healing lepers.

now tell me why does Mark chapter 16, verse 17-18 says when they drink poison, it will not hurt them at all. sounds comical to me. can you please explain it?

My purpose was not to ridicule your beliefs. Sorry if I offending you. But I hope that you understand that even some Muslims do not take it literally.
Contrary to many of the commentators who take this reference to "apes and swine" in a literal sense, the famous tabi'i Mujahid explains it as a metaphorical description (mathal) of the moral degradation which such sinners undergo: they become wildly unpredictable like apes, and as abandoned to the pursuit of lusts as swine (Manar VI, 448). This interpretation has also been quoted by Tabari in his commentary on 2 : 65. - As regards the expression "powers of evil" (at-,taghut), see surah 2, note 250.(Quran Ref: 5:60 )

I am very familiar with the portion of Mark that you quote. Notice it says that "if they drink". This is not something that would be done intentionally, although I am familiar with Christian groups who believe that to be the case. But the key is that God's grace and his power is able to prevent a natural result from occurring.

 

[followeroftheway]

Proper context

you may want to look at Quran's chapter 2 verse 61 to 66 in order to understand what happened. remember, don't take verses out of context.

Thank you. I had read it before, but I read it again to make sure that I have it in its proper context. It is obviously speaking about Jews and Christians not walking in the revelations of the past. What I was looking for was a clear reference to rather or not these thing are believed to have happened in the past in a literal sense.
Peace

 

[sazk]

if you see chapter 2 verse 65 again it says "Be you monkeys, despised and rejected"

despised is what a person is when he is humiliated. so obviously they were (also) humiliated for breaking the covenant of the Sabbath.

i have the famous tafsir ibn katheer in front of me. this is what it says:

(And ask them (O Muhammad ) about the town that was by the sea; when they transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath (i.e. Saturday): when their fish came to them openly on the Sabbath day, and did not come to them on the day they had no Sabbath. Thus We made a trial of them, for they used to rebel (disobey Allah).

(We said to them: "Be you monkeys, despised and rejected'') means, "Allah changed their bodies into those of monkeys and swines. The young people turned into monkeys while the old people turned into swine.''

(We said to them: "Be you monkeys, despised and rejected''), "These people were turned into howling monkeys with tails, after being men and women.''

Ibn Abi Hatim recorded that Ibn `Abbas said, "Those who violated the sanctity of the Sabbath were turned into monkeys, then they perished without offspring.'' Ad-Dahhak said that Ibn `Abbas said, "Allah turned them into monkeys because of their sins. They only lived on the earth for three days, for no transformed person ever lives more than three days. They did not eat, drink or have offspring. Allah transformed their shapes into monkeys, and He does what He wills, with whom He wills and He changes the shape of whomever He wills.

remember reverend, these were times when people had the ability to turn staffs into snakes. obviously the Creator of this ability Himself would have far greater conversion abilities. it was very easy for Him to turn these transgressors into monkeys.

 

[followeroftheway]

Created from nothing

Welcome to the forums.

As sazk stated it refers to a portion of the children of Israel from the past.

If you find it comical, remember that Allaah created Adam from nothing, without any parents. He created Jesus without a father. He created the swine and the ape too; he created everything. So transforming a group of people into swine/apes would rationally seem easier than creating them from nothing.

There are many things that Muslims, Christians and Jews believe that members of other faiths will laugh at. They laugh even at the thought of Angels to begin with... So it may sound comical, but one who believes and knows that Allaah/God is all-capable, will know that such a matter is easy and possible.

Hope it helps.

Again, it was not and is not my intention to offend anyone. I am since in seeking more info on this subject. Are their more explict references to this than is found in the Quran?

Adam was created from the dust and God breathed into him the breath of life. Jesus has a father, God. Transforming people into these animals literally would seem to contradict the orderly nature of God since man is made in the image of God.

My reason for this question had more to do with the context that I originally heard it in. In the context the person who said this seemed to think of the nation of Israel as swine and apes and was waiting for Alaah's deliverance for the Arabs.

My point is, if this is what we believe, it will affect how we see others. Do we see people as swine and apes? If so it will affect how we interact with them. I am not a swine or an ape.

Peace

 

[BigAk]

I am very familiar with the portion of Mark that you quote. Notice it says that "if they drink". This is not something that would be done intentionally, although I am familiar with Christian groups who believe that to be the case. But the key is that God's grace and his power is able to prevent a natural result from occurring.

Are you familiar with the fact that this particular portion of Mark that you're referring to was thrown out of the bible as a fabrication; as an interpolation?? In the Revised Standarised Version of the King James bible, in the preface, it mentions that 32 christian scholars of the highest emminent; backed by 50 cooperating denomination. They went back to the "most" ancient manuscripts of the bible and found that the verses of Mark 16:9-20 were non-existent.. So, these scholars have thrown them out. Now, if you open the revised version of King James 1952 you'll see that the verses are totally gone.. Look at the following prints:

 

[followeroftheway]

Cover to cover

well he can ask anything about the Quran and how islam was spread also. we have nothing to hide. the Quran is plainly there for all of mankind to read.

but instead of just coming up with random questions i think it would be best if the reverend read the bible cover to cover and also the quran cover to cover. then he would be in a better position to ask questions that seem to confuse him.

i'm surprised he thought only blacks are converting! if this is the way all ministers jump to conclusions.........

I have read the bible cover to cover many times. And I am currently reading it cover to cover. I will read more of the Quran, in English, but I do have a problem. I cannot read Arabic and I do know that the translations are not equal to reading in the original language. It is the reason I prefer to read the bible in the original language.
Peace

 

[sazk]

Adam was created from the dust and God breathed into him the breath of life. Jesus has a father, God. Transforming people into these animals literally would seem to contradict the orderly nature of God since man is made in the image of God.

Peace

now what islam differs is here you should know:

1. Jesus (peace be upon him) does not have a father.

2. God does not beget or is begotten

3. Jesus is a Word and a Spirit from God, sent into Mary (may Allah be pleased with her), who was pure and chaste. Allah said "Be!" and Jesus was conceived in the womb of Mary. Jesus is the Messiah, the Christos, the Anointed One.

4. Man is not made in the image of God. there is nothing like God, there is no one like God in all of His Creation.

by the way reverend, which version of the bible are you reading now?

also you have to understand the context of the Arab man who said it. obviously when israel has destroyed your home, bombed your family, raped your women and sent flachette shells in your lungs, legs and eyes, you would feel anger and curse them. you are not swine or ape, atleast not until you commit war crimes and human atrocities. i hope you understand what i am saying. this is what palestinians have been going through for 60 years now. they live in refugee camps and UN schools. their homes have been taken away from them. who wouldn't call someone a swine or ape if they took away somebody's life?

 

[followeroftheway]

Follower of the Way

if you see chapter 2 verse 65 again it says "Be you monkeys, despised and rejected"

despised is what a person is when he is humiliated. so obviously they were (also) humiliated for breaking the covenant of the Sabbath.

i have the famous tafsir ibn katheer in front of me. this is what it says:

(And ask them (O Muhammad ) about the town that was by the sea; when they transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath (i.e. Saturday): when their fish came to them openly on the Sabbath day, and did not come to them on the day they had no Sabbath. Thus We made a trial of them, for they used to rebel (disobey Allah).

(We said to them: "Be you monkeys, despised and rejected'') means, "Allah changed their bodies into those of monkeys and swines. The young people turned into monkeys while the old people turned into swine.''

(We said to them: "Be you monkeys, despised and rejected''), "These people were turned into howling monkeys with tails, after being men and women.''

Ibn Abi Hatim recorded that Ibn `Abbas said, "Those who violated the sanctity of the Sabbath were turned into monkeys, then they perished without offspring.'' Ad-Dahhak said that Ibn `Abbas said, "Allah turned them into monkeys because of their sins. They only lived on the earth for three days, for no transformed person ever lives more than three days. They did not eat, drink or have offspring. Allah transformed their shapes into monkeys, and He does what He wills, with whom He wills and He changes the shape of whomever He wills.

remember reverend, these were times when people had the ability to turn staffs into snakes. obviously the Creator of this ability Himself would have far greater conversion abilities. it was very easy for Him to turn these transgressors into monkeys.

You don't need to call me reverend. I am a seeker of truth and light. Thanks for the extra-Quran info. What you have seems to give more light on what Mohammad seems to be eluding to. I also like your mention of the staff of Moses. I recall that pharaoh's servants were able to do the same, but Moses' snake ate theirs. Good point.
Peace

 

[BigAk]

Adam was created from the dust and God breathed into him the breath of life. Jesus has a father, God.

Where do you get the authority to claim that God was Jesus's father??? Please provide your proof for such statement.

(Astagfir Allah Al Azeem)

.

 

[followeroftheway]

Not in the original

Are you familiar with the fact that this particular portion of Mark that you're referring to was thrown out of the bible as a fabrication; as an interpolation?? In the Revised Standarised Version of the King James bible, in the preface, it mentions that 32 christian scholars of the highest emminent; backed by 50 cooperating denomination. They went back to the "most" ancient manuscripts of the bible and found that the verses of Mark 16:9-20 were non-existent.. So, these scholars have thrown them out. Now, if you open the revised version of King James 1952 you'll see that the verses are totally gone.. Look at the following prints:

I am familiar with that. But you originally bought it up.
Peace

 

[BigAk]

I have read the bible cover to cover many times. And I am currently reading it cover to cover. I will read more of the Quran, in English, but I do have a problem. I cannot read Arabic and I do know that the translations are not equal to reading in the original language. It is the reason I prefer to read the bible in the original language.
Peace

I assure you that you don't have a problem with the statement in red above... That is what I'm here for.. I am willing to help you. Arabic is my mother tongue.. Praise be to Allah.

.

 

[BigAk]

I am familiar with that. But you originally bought it up.
Peace

So you acknowledge the fact that you believe in a fabrication??.. You realize that these same verses of Mark is the only place in Mark that talks about the resurrection??

.

 

[BigAk]

Adam was created from the dust and God breathed into him the breath of life. Jesus has a father, God.

According to your bible, God has sons by the tons in the bible.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIut_p9l6fs

Again; where do you get the authority to claim that God was Jesus's father??? Please provide your credible and convincing proof for your statement.

(Astagfir Allah Al Azeem)


.

 

[followeroftheway]

now what islam differs is here you should know:

1. Jesus (peace be upon him) does not have a father.

2. God does not beget or is begotten

3. Jesus is a Word and a Spirit from God, sent into Mary (may Allah be pleased with her), who was pure and chaste. Allah said "Be!" and Jesus was conceived in the womb of Mary. Jesus is the Messiah, the Christos, the Anointed One.

4. Man is not made in the image of God. there is nothing like God, there is no one like God in all of His Creation.

by the way reverend, which version of the bible are you reading now?

also you have to understand the context of the Arab man who said it. obviously when israel has destroyed your home, bombed your family, raped your women and sent flachette shells in your lungs, legs and eyes, you would feel anger and curse them. you are not swine or ape, atleast not until you commit war crimes and human atrocities.

Thanks for the clarification. I see in much of what Mohammad says he seeks to reform the faith that the Jews and Christians corrupted back to the true faith. My questions for any that will respond, What writings did Mohammad consider to be accurate and uncorrupted if any? As a scholar one would seek to find the most ancient versions for the greatest accuracy. The writings of Moses are two thousand years older than Mohammad's. (You know that Christians consider the Old Testament writings that were in the hands of the Jews to be authentic.) But in addition there was a Greek translation of the Law, the prophets and the writings that has been in circulation since several hundred years before Christ. Scrolls from the dead sea compare very favorable to We desire to neither add to or take away. The New Testament is rejected by the Jews but accepted by the Christians. So with that out of the way. Does Islam throw everything else out and start over, or does it take and modify or reinterpret scriptures that was around in the days of Mohammad?
Peace