Hello followeroftheway,
Thank you for visiting this forum.
There are two points I'd like to address here:
1- We Muslims believe that the previous Holy Scriptures given to former prophets [such as Moses -peace be upon him-] were corrupted, and we do not believe that the Gospels contain a 100% accurate description of the life of Jesus Christ [peace be upon him]. Therefore, whenever anything in the Bible conflicts with a verse of the Qur'an or an authentic saying of prophet Muhammad [peace be upon him], then we believe that conflicting Biblical verse is a fabrication.
For your benefit [as a believing Christian] I will provide evidence [from Christian Bibles and other Christian sources] proving that corruption has occurred in the Bible.
For example, you have the famous Story of the Adulteress [John 7:53-8:11]. I will post the text of the story and then some commentaries. The text itself is from the Catholic
New American Bible as well as footnote no. 17. The websites I referred to under them are official Vatican websites:
Then each went to his own house, while Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. But early in the morning he arrived again in the temple area, and all the people started coming to him, and he sat down and taught them. Then the scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery and made her stand in the middle. They said to him, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the very act of committing adultery. Now in the law, Moses commanded us to stone such women. So what do you say?" They said this to test him, so that they could have some charge to bring against him. Jesus bent down and began to write on the ground with his finger. But when they continued asking him, he straightened up and said to them, "Let the one among you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her." Again he bent down and wrote on the ground. And in response, they went away one by one, beginning with the elders. So he was left alone with the woman before him. Then Jesus straightened up and said to her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?" She replied, "No one, sir." Then Jesus said, "Neither do I condemn you. Go, (and) from now on do not sin any more."
Sources:
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__PXF.HTM
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__PXG.HTM
17 [⇒ 7:53-⇒ 8:11] The story of the woman caught in adultery is a later insertion here, missing from all early Greek manuscripts. A Western text-type insertion, attested mainly in Old Latin translations, it is found in different places in different manuscripts: here, or after ⇒ John 7:36 or at the end of this gospel, or after ⇒ Luke 21:38, or at the end of that gospel. There are many non-Johannine features in the language, and there are also many doubtful readings within the passage. The style and motifs are similar to those of Luke, and it fits better with the general situation at the end of Luke 21:but it was probably inserted here because of the allusion to ⇒ Jeremiah 17:13 (cf the note on John ⇒ John 8:6) and the statement, "I do not judge anyone," in ⇒ John 8:15. The Catholic Church accepts this passage as canonical scripture.
Source:
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__PXF.HTM
Let's look at what other versions of the Bible had to say about the Story of the Adulteress [from the biblegateway.com website]:
((The earliest and most reliable manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have John 7:53-8:11.))
John 7:53-8:11 (New International Version)
Source:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John 7:53-8:11;&version=31;
a. John 7:53 Later mss add the story of the adulterous woman, numbering it as John 7:53-8:11
John 7:53-8:11 (New American Standard Bible)
Source:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John 7:53-8:11;&version=49;
a. John 7:53 John 7:53 to 8:11 is absent from most of the older manuscripts, and those that have it sometimes place it elsewhere. The story may well be authentic. Indeed, Christ's response of compassion and mercy is so much in keeping with His character that we accept it as authentic, and feel that to omit it would be most unfortunate.
John 7:53-8:11 (Amplified Bible)
Source:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John 7:53-8:11;&version=45;
[The most ancient Greek manuscripts do not include John 7:53–8:11.]
John 7:53-8:11 (New Living Translation)
Source:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John 7:53-8:11;&version=51;
[The earliest manuscripts do not include 7:53–8:11.]
John 7:53-8:11 (English Standard Version)
Source:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John 7:53-8:11;&version=47;
[The earliest manuscripts and many other ancient witnesses do not have John 7:53-8:11.]
John 7:53-8:11 (Today's New International Version)
Source:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John 7:53-8:11;&version=72;
So, this story was a later addition to the Gospel of John, and therefore a fabrication. And I'll admit that not all versions of the Bible mention this point. The King James Version [and others] are silent, and you can check them out in the biblegateway.com website.
I have already posted the above information in other posts in this forum, so I could have just typed a link and referred you to these posts. However, I feared that if you saw a link, you'd be tempted to ignore it. Therefore, I retyped the information here [with the links to original Christian sources].
My other posts on
other instances of fabrication in the Bible are of the same type [i.e., I always prove my quotes from original Christian sources]. I hope that now you'll be more inclined to click on the links below and read them:
http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showpost.php?p=153172&postcount=126
http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showpost.php?p=153173&postcount=127
http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showpost.php?p=153174&postcount=128
http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showpost.php?p=153175&postcount=129
http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showpost.php?p=153176&postcount=130
2- In post #11 on page 2 of this thread, you wrote:
My point is, if this is what we believe, it will affect how we see others. Do we see people as swine and apes? If so it will affect how we interact with them. I am not a swine or an ape.
I have heard Muslims call Jews as sons of swines and apes, but I don't like that. I believe in what's in the Qur'an, but does that mean that modern Jews are descendants of those who were turned into apes? I don't believe it's the case, and therefore these terms shouldn't be used.
The following is a
fatwa [religious opinion] of Shaykh Muhammad Saalih al-Munajjid. It's numbered 14085, and the topic is entitled "Are the monkeys and pigs that exist nowadays humans who have been transformed?". Please note the sections I set in bold type,
like so:
The question was:
Could you please tell me about monkeys. Are they humans who were turned into monkeys for disobeying Allahs commandments? if so which people were they and what did they do?
And the answer was:
Praise be to Allaah.
Maskh (transformation) refers to the changing of a person’s exterior appearance. Allaah has told us in more than one place in the Qur’aan that He transformed some of the Children of Israel into monkeys as a punishment for their disobedience towards Allaah. Allaah says, addressing the Children of Israel (interpretation of the meaning):
“And indeed you knew those amongst you who transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath (i.e. Saturday). We said to them: ‘Be you monkeys, despised and rejected.’
So We made this punishment an example to their own and to succeeding generations and a lesson to those who are Al-Muttaqoon (the pious)”
[al-Baqarah 2:65-66]
And Allaah tells us their story in more detail in Soorat al-A’raaf, where He says (interpretation of the meaning):
“And ask them (O Muhammad) about the town that was by the sea; when they transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath (i.e. Saturday): when their fish came to them openly on the Sabbath day, and did not come to them on the day they had no Sabbath. Thus We made a trial of them, for they used to rebel against Allaah’s Command (disobey Allaah)
And when a community among them said: ‘Why do you preach to a people whom Allaah is about to destroy or to punish with a severe torment?’ (The preachers) said: ‘In order to be free from guilt before your Lord (Allaah), and perhaps they may fear Allaah.’
So when they forgot the reminders that had been given to them, We rescued those who forbade evil, but with a severe torment We seized those who did wrong because they used to rebel against Allaah’s Command (disobey Allaah).
So when they exceeded the limits of what they were prohibited, We said to them: ‘Be you monkeys, despised and rejected’”
[al-A’raaf 7:163-166]
And Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“Say: ‘O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Do you criticize us for no other reason than that we believe in Allaah, and in (the Revelation) which has been sent down to us and in that which has been sent down before (us), and that most of you are Faasiqoon [rebellious and disobedient (to Allaah)]?’
Say (O Muhammad to the people of the Scripture): ‘Shall I inform you of something worse than that, regarding the recompense from Allaah: those (Jews) who incurred the Curse of Allaah and His Wrath, and those of whom (some) He transformed into monkeys and swines, and those who worshipped Taaghoot (false deities); such are worse in rank (on the Day of Resurrection in the Hell-fire), and far more astray from the Right Path (in the life of this world)’”
[al-Maa’idah 5:59-60]
This transformation was a punishment from Allaah to them for their doing that which Allaah had forbidden to them. This punishment was not exclusively for the Children of Israel, rather the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) told us that the Hour will not begin until such transformation happens among this ummah too. He issued this warning to those who disbelieve in the divine decree (al-qadr), and those who drink alcohol and listen to singing – we seek refuge with Allaah from that.
Ibn Maajah (4059) narrated from ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Mas’ood that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Shortly before the Hour begins, people will be transformed into monkeys and pigs, swallowed up in the earth, and pelted with stones.” (Saheeh Ibn Maajah, 3280).
Being swallowed up in the earth means that the earth will split open and swallow up a person, house or city, just as Allaah caused the earth to swallow Qaaroon and his household. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning);
“So We caused the earth to swallow him”
[al-Qasas 28:81]
Pelting with stones is the same as Allaah did to the people of Loot. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“and rained down on them stones of baked clay”
[al-Hijr 15:74]
Al-Tirmidhi (2152) narrated that Ibn ‘Umar said: “I heard the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say, ‘Among this ummah those who disbelieve in the divine decree (al-qadr) will be wallowed up by the earth, transformed into monkeys and pigs or pelted with stones.” (Saheeh al-Tirmidhi, 1748).
And al-Tirmidhi (2212) narrated from ‘Imraan ibn Husayn that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Among this ummah, people will be transformed into monkeys and pigs, swallowed up in the earth, and pelted with stones.” A man among the Muslims said, “O Messenger of Allaah, when will that be?” He said, “When singing-girls and musical instruments become widespread and wine is drunk.” (Saheeh al-Tirmidhi, 1802).
These ahaadeeth indicate that such transformations will happen in this ummah as a punishment for some sins. So let the Muslim beware of doing anything that Allaah has forbidden. Woe be to the one who provokes the anger, wrath and vengeance of Allaah. May Allaah keep us all safe from the things that incur His punishment.
But these monkeys and pigs that exist nowadays are not the people from the earlier nations who were transformed, because Allaah does not enable those who have been transformed to have offspring, rather He causes them to die after being transformed, so they have no offspring.
Muslim (2663) narrated that ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Mas’ood said: “A man said, ‘O Messenger of Allaah, are the monkeys and pigs those who have been transformed?’ The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: ‘Allaah does not enable those who have been transformed to have offspring or children. The monkeys and pigs existed before that.’” al-Nawawi (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: “The Prophet’s words ‘The monkeys and pigs existed before that’ means that they existed before the Children of Israel were transformed, which indicates that they are not from among those who were transformed.”
And Allaah knows best. May Allaah bless our Prophet Muhammad and grant him peace.
Islam Q&A
Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid
Source:
http://www.islamqa.com/en/ref/14085
Furthermore, Allah the Almighty ordered us Muslims to call on the People of the Book/Scripture in the following way:
And do not argue with the People of the Scripture except in a way that is best, except for those who commit injustice among them, and say, "We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you. And our God and your God is one; and we are Muslims [in submission] to Him."
[Translation of the meanings of the Qur'an 29:46]
And Allah the Almighty has allowed Muslim men to marry chaste Jewish or Christian women:
This day [all] good foods have been made lawful, and the food of those who were given the Scripture is lawful for you and your food is lawful for them. And [lawful in marriage are] chaste women from among the believers and chaste women from among those who were given the Scripture before you, when you have given them their due compensation, desiring chastity, not unlawful sexual intercourse or taking [secret] lovers. And whoever denies the faith - his work has become worthless, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers.
[Translation of the meanings of the Qur'an 5:5]
So, do you believe a knowledgeable Muslim would think of Jews and/or Christians as apes and swine when he is allowed to marry a chaste Jewish or Christian woman?
And one last point. According to the Bible, Jesus [peace be upon him] said:
Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
Matthew 7:6 (King James Version)
The following commentary is on the above verse, taken from the Catholic
New American Bible:
4 [6] Dogs and swine were Jewish terms of contempt for Gentiles. This saying may originally have derived from a Jewish Christian community opposed to preaching the gospel (what is holy, pearls) to Gentiles. In the light of ⇒ Matthew 28:19 that can hardly be Matthew's meaning. He may have taken the saying as applying to a Christian dealing with an obstinately impenitent fellow Christian (⇒ Matthew 18:17).
Source:
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__PVG.HTM
Do you [followeroftheway] consider us Muslims as dogs and swine, or are these terms reserved for an 'obstinately impenitent fellow Christian' as the commentary suggests?
Best regards,
Bluegazer
