Violation of Human Rights in China

hussain.mahammed

a lonely traveller

Remember the Gulja massacre?
China’s crackdown on peaceful protesters


"I have never seen such viciousness in my life...military dogs were attacking peaceful demonstrators. Chinese soldiers were bludgeoning the demonstrators……bodies, some alive, others dead, were being dragged across the ground and dumped all together into dozens of army trucks."

Rebiya Kadeer, nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize in 2006, is a Uighur human rights activist and former prisoner of conscience. In November 2006, she was also elected president of the World Uighur Congress (WUC) in Munich. She lives in exile in the US.
In 1999, before her sentencing to eight years in prison on charges of “leaking state secrets”, Rebiya was a prominent businesswoman and member of the Chinese National People’s Congress After nearly six years, she was released from prison on medical parole in March 2005 and allowed to leave China.

While still in custody, Rebiya was warned that if she engaged with members of the Uighur ethnic community or spoke publicly about "sensitive issues" after her release, her "businesses and children will be finished". Despite numerous threats, she continued her human rights work.

Consequently, Rebiya’s family members who stayed in China were targeted by the Chinese authorities. In November 2006, three of her sons were made to pay heavy fines on politically motivated charges. One of them received a prison sentence of seven years after he was reported to have been severely beaten, with risk of further torture or ill-treatment

Rebiya Kadeer describes scenes of footage taken at the bloody Gulja massacre on 5 February 1997 and subsequent days. She believes she was shown the footage by the prefectural police chief to intimidate her into stopping her investigation.

Watching the police footage, Rebiya Kadeer realized that this massacre had been another Tiananmen-style crackdown on peaceful protesters. But this time, the Chinese authorities were able to keep the events hidden from the world.

"I am speaking out so that we do not forget those who lost their lives in Gulja and to call for accountability on the part of the Chinese authorities."
- Rebiya Kadeer

Ten years later, Rebiya continues to tell the story of the massacre in Gulja; and she continues to fight for the rights of China's mainly Muslim Uighur community who have been systematically persecuted since the 1980s.

Gulja massacre

On 5 February 1997, peaceful demonstrations took place in the city of Gulja (Yining) in XUAR.

Hundreds, possibly thousands, lost their lives or were seriously injured.

Large numbers of people were arrested during the demonstrations and their aftermath. Many detainees were beaten or otherwise tortured. An unknown number remain unaccounted for.

During the crackdown, the Uighur community living in the XUAR was targeted.

According to local sources, the demonstration was sparked by growing levels of repression of Uighur culture and religion in and around Gulja. Uighur community

Uighur’s are a mainly Muslim ethnic minority who are concentrated primarily in China’s Xinjiang Uighur Autonomous Region (XUAR).

Since the 1980s, the Uighurs have been the target of systematic and extensive human rights violations.

This includes arbitrary detention and imprisonment, incommunicado detention, and serious restrictions on religious freedom as well as cultural and social rights. Uighur political prisoners have been executed after unfair trials.

In recent years, China has exploited the international “war on terror” to suppress the Uighurs, labelling them “terrorists”, “separatists”, or “religious extremists”.



People’s Republic of China

Rebiya Kadeer's personal account of Gulja after the massacre on 5 February 1997

I began hearing about terrible events occurring in Gulja in early February 1997, and decided – as a Uighur and a member of the Chinese National People’s Congress, that I had to go to see for myself what was happening.

I arrived in Gulja City in the morning of 7 or 8 February, and went to the home of a Uighur friend of mine. In the afternoon my friend took me to the home of another Uighur family whose two sons had been killed during the Chinese military crackdown on the peaceful protestors in Gulja a couple of days earlier. Their daughter had been arrested and her whereabouts were unknown. The parents were pale and highly distraught. Just as I was trying to talk with them, the Ili Prefectural Police and Chinese Military officers and soldiers burst into the house. The soldiers pulled the parents by the hair and kicked them really hard. The top military officer ordered me to put my hands on my head and to face the wall and said, "if you resist or shout and scream, we will shoot you." It was clear that it was the Chinese military officer in command, not the prefectural police, who didn't dare say anything in front of him. They forced me to strip completely naked and searched all my clothes.

After finding nothing I was ordered to put my clothes back on, and was taken to the prefectural police station for further questioning. The police chief warned me not to visit any more homes and to leave the city immediately. He said I would be held responsible for the deaths of any people I visited who passed information on to me, and even my own death if something terrible happened. I was then allowed to leave the police station. I nevertheless resolved to stay in the city to gather more information.

As I left the police station someone dropped a note in front of me which read "Go and visit the Yengi Hayat Neighbourhood." When I arrived in that neighbourhood I saw a large house with all the doors open, and even some food on the table, but with no one at home. I knocked at the house next door, but no one answered. I tried another house, and a Hui Muslim opened the door and addressed me in perfect Uighur. I asked him what had happened to the people in the house next door. He said they may have been killed in the demonstration. He said they had been really nice neighbours. When I asked him how many people had lived in the house he was not comfortable answering, but he said many had been killed in that neighbourhood and taken away in military trucks.

I asked him if he could direct me to the home of a Uighur family in the neighbourhood, but he said most Uighurs would be too scared to let me into their homes. But he pointed me to the house of an Uzbek family. A 60-year old Uzbek woman opened the door. Despite her concern that I was being followed she gave me some tea and spoke to me about the demonstration and the crackdown. She said she had seen numerous Chinese military trucks piled high with dead or beaten Uighurs going into the local Yengi Hayat Prison but had not seen people leaving. She said she was certain that nearly 1000 Uighurs had been taken into the prison, but that the prison could only accommodate 500 prisoners. Furthermore, she said she saw many military trucks leaving the prison that were filled with dirt. Many others I spoke with had also witnessed this. Many suspected that dead bodies were buried in the dirt and were being taken out to be disposed of.

Later, I visited the home of another individual, Abdushukur Hajim, who had not participated in the demonstration but who had witnessed killings by the Chinese military. While at his home, the Ili Prefectural Police broke in and detained me for a second time, again taking me back to the police station. I learned later that this gentleman was subsequently arrested and sentenced to two years in prison for passing "state secrets" to me. When he was released two years later he had had a mental breakdown.

Even after my second detention and warning by the Ili Prefectural Police I did not leave Ghulja. I simply felt it was my responsibility to bear witness to the events there and to gather information. I was eventually detained a third time. When I arrived at the police station they said "we’ve told you repeatedly to leave but you are still here. OK, then, if you are so interested to know what happened here then look at this."

They then showed me footage they had filmed of the military crack-down in Gulja in the proceeding days. I believe their intention was to terrify me and to intimidate me into silence. I watched the footage in the police station with several other people, including the prefectural police chief. I have never seen such viciousness in my life and it is difficult for me to adequately describe the horror of the scenes in the film. In one part dozens of military dogs were attacking – lunging and biting at, peaceful demonstrators, including women and children. Chinese PLA soldiers were bludgeoning the demonstrators – thrashing at their legs until they buckled and fell to the ground. Those on the ground – some alive, others dead, were then dragged across the ground and dumped all together into dozens of army trucks.

The footage also captured a young Uighur girl screaming, "Semetjan", then running to a young man who was bleeding and being dragged by a Chinese soldier to a truck. Another soldier knocked her down and shot her dead right on the spot. He then dragged her by the hair and dumped her into the same truck into which the young man had been thrown. In another part of the film gunshots were fired into a group of Uighur children, aged 5 to 6, who were with a woman holding a baby, all were shot. It wasn’t clear where the guns were being fired from, whether from a rooftop or truck-top. There were tanks in the street, and in the film one could see three kinds of PLA soldiers: those with a helmet, baton, and shield; those with automatic weapons; and those with rifles with bayonets. In the film I heard Chinese soldiers shouting, "kill them!, kill them!" I heard one officer shouting to a soldier, "Is he a Uighur or Chinese? Don’t touch the Chinese but kill the Uighur."

After watching the footage I felt I had done what I could. I had seen enough of the horror. I left Gulja City for Urumchi. Upon arriving at the Gulja airport I was strip-searched by agents of the Chinese National Security Bureau. They confiscated all of my belongings, including my clothing and luggage. They gave me new clothing to wear and escorted me to the airplane.

Approximately ten days after my return to Urumchi, one woman and two young men from Gulja came to my office. They told me that they hadn’t participated in the demonstration in Gulja but since the Chinese authorities indiscriminately arresting many Uighurs, including those who hadn’t participated in the demonstration, they decided to flee to Urumchi. One of them said his father was even a communist party member, but he still didn’t feel safe. The woman told me with tears in her eyes that Chinese soldiers fired into a crowd of Uighurs waving goodbye to their relatives who were being paraded through the city streets in trucks on their way to the execution ground. She said when one desperate mother shouted to her son on the truck and raised her hands, Chinese soldiers on a building fired upon her with a machine gun and killed 5-6 Uighurs standing beside her. Some Russians standing nearby saw what happened and shouted "Fascists! Fascists!"

During my stay in Ghulja I visited some 30 Uighur families and met with nearly 100 people. I felt the pain of the Uighur families who lost their sons and daughters in the military crackdown on this peaceful protest. Having been detained and threatened on three occasions, I was able to understand the severity of the situation by experiencing first hand mistreatment at the hands of Chinese military and police.

I am speaking out so that we do not forget those who lost their lives in Gulja and to call for accountability on the part of the Chinese authorities.

Background
On 5 February 1997, dozens of people were killed or seriously injured when the Chinese security forces brutally broke up a peaceful demonstration in the city of Gulja (Yining) in the Xinjiang Uighur Autonomous Region (XUAR) of China. Hundreds, possibly thousands, lost their lives or were seriously injured in the unrest that occurred the following day. Large numbers of people were arrested during the demonstrations and their aftermath. Many detainees were beaten or otherwise tortured. An unknown number remain unaccounted for.

Uighurs are a mainly Muslim ethnic minority who are concentrated primarily in China’s Xinjiang Uighur Autonomous Region (XUAR). Since the 1980s, the Uighurs have been the target of systematic and extensive human rights violations. This includes arbitrary detention and imprisonment, incommunicado detention, and serious restrictions on religious freedom as well as cultural and social rights. Uighur political prisoners have been executed after unfair trials. In recent years, China has exploited the international "war on terror" to suppress the Uighurs, labelling them "terrorists", "separatists", or "religious extremists".
 
F

fabs

Guest
I agree with the fact that the Chinese are one of the worst Human Rights abusers on the planet. This formerly atheist state makes life tough for Christians , Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus and Falan Gong members.
I don't like communism and any true believer in God will agree that it's a afront to humanity.
 

virtualeye

Tamed Brother
Its samilar to America. The difference is that China is doing massacres at its own land while America exclusively enjoys to play with the respect and lives of people outside its land.
 

Globalpeace

Banned
Why the Double Standards???

Asslamo Allaikum,

Almost 80 years ago the “British Empire” had the nerve to tell Mussolini and the Italians to renounce Fascism.

They replied to Britain, “You are subjecting people abroad through colonialism (Indians and dogs are not allowed etc.); we think we are superior and we do it at home…What’s the difference”

The Americans are abusing human rights everywhere and their stooges in Israel, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Pakistan, Iraq and Afghanistan doing the same at home (with their express support)

China doing it at home & then the Americans “crying foul” at the Chinese?

In English they say, “Pot calling the cattle black…”

Like Dr Zakir Naik says, “We should STOP the double standards & condemn everyone equally; including the “Khadimul Harmain Wal Sharefain (Servant of the Two Holy Sites”) i.e. the Saudees…”

Some Muslims will condemn everyone else but never the Saudees!

The Saudi scholars give Khutbahs and issue all sorts of Fatwas for the rest of the world but don’t seem to have the guts to express anything about their own country!

The hypocrisy is phenomenal!
 
F

fabs

Guest
The difference is of course that the American SYSTEM itself does not legally allow such things to happen as it is a Democracy. Nor does Great Britain.
Things that happen during war time are very different than common policy in the home country.
In China, the almighty state is above everything including its own citizens. The people do not have the right to change their government as they see fit as there is but one Party.

I agree one hundred percent about the Saudis although I thought most Muslims considered them to be the Heavenly Kingdom above criticism, I guess that was inaccurate.
 

Globalpeace

Banned
Islamic concept of Justice!

Hi Fabs,

I disagree with you about the SYSTEM of democracy not legally allowing abuses. Democracy is a system in which majority rules morality.

If majority rules “Non-Whites” to be inferior then that becomes the law
If majority rules “Non-Jews” to be gentiles then that becomes the law
If majority rules “Jews” to be demons then that becomes the law
If majority rules “Homosexuality” to be correct then that becomes the law
If majority rules “Child Abuse” to be correct then that will become the law

You see the problem with democracy is the standards of morality are left for the human mind to conceive and decide and that is a grave error; people’s interpretation and standards change with time (hopefully for the better but not always).

The system of checks and balances is a fine idea on paper but fails to materialise in the face of “National Security”; I am sure that you realise that the Americans have blatantly interfered in South-America (regimes propped up and taught torture techniques by the CIA in the School of Americas); in Middle-East (Saudi Arabia, Egypt etc.) and in Asia (Afghanistan Vietnam)…

I am sure you know that a lot of Terrorists the world is fighting were trained by the CIA!

As far as Britain is concerned; it has a long history of interference in Malaysia, Indonesia, India & most of all in Palestine!

Yes some of these events took place in time of war but majority were at peace time and deemed appropriate because of needs of “National Security”

As far as Saudi Arabia is concerned it’s a brutal unIslamic and undemocratic (although I don’t believe in democracy as a suitable system of government but just making a point) regime guilty of some horrendous human rights violations.

We should learn to call a spade a spade…

If it’s wrong for Israel to detain and/or kill innocent civilians then it’s equally wrong for US, British, Saudi, Egyptian or Pakistani governments to do the same.

Islam doesn’t teach this “Holy Land” doctrine, Islam teaches justice and Islam teaches to stop the “Oppressor” from oppression even it’s your own family.


The difference is of course that the American SYSTEM itself does not legally allow such things to happen as it is a Democracy. Nor does Great Britain.
Things that happen during war time are very different than common policy in the home country.
In China, the almighty state is above everything including its own citizens. The people do not have the right to change their government as they see fit as there is but one Party.

I agree one hundred percent about the Saudis although I thought most Muslims considered them to be the Heavenly Kingdom above criticism, I guess that was inaccurate.
 

Globalpeace

Banned
Democracy vs Islam!

'To Whon it may concern,

Read it carefully, twice or thrice if you have to!

I would like to iterate a few principles of Islamic governance; the precedence set by the Prophet of Islam (Sallaho Alaihe Wassallam) and followed by Muslims:

1) Prohibition of Racism:

Allah Says (interpretation of meaning): {O mankind! We have created you from a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know one another. Verily, the most honourable of you with Allâh is that (believer) who has At-Taqwa [i.e. one of the Muttaqûn (pious). Verily, Allâh is All-Knowing, All-Aware. }[49:13].

The Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi wa Sallam) said in his last sermon: There is no preference of an Arab over a Non-Arab or a white over a black or a black over a white except by the (degree) of piety . (Imam Ahmad )

In another Hadith the Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi wa Sallam) said about racism Leave it (that call) as it is a detestable thing . [Reported by Imam al-Bukhari ].

2) Prohibition of Oppression and order to stop oppression:

The Prophet PBUH once exclaimed, 'By God, he is not a believer! By God, he is not a believer! By God, he is not a believer!' The people asked,'O Messenger of God, who?' 'The man whose excesses prevent his neighbour from living in peace', replied the noble Prophet PBUH. (Sahih Bukhari)

According to Anas ibn Malik, when God's Messenger PBUH said, 'Help your brother, irrespective of whether he is the oppressor or the oppressed,' a man said, 'O Messenger of God, I can help the oppressed, but how can I help the oppressor?' The Prophet PBUH replied, 'Stop him from committing an act of oppression. That in iteself is a form of help.' (Bukhari & Muslim)



3) Prohibition of preferential Treatment:

Narrated 'Aisha:
Usama approached the Prophet on behalf of a woman (who had committed theft). The Prophet said, "The people before you were destroyed because they used to inflict the legal punishments on the poor and forgive the rich. By Him in Whose Hand my soul is! If Fatima (the daughter of the Prophet ) did that (i.e. stole), I would cut off her hand." (Bukhari)

4) Prohibition of in Justice :

Abu Zar al-Ghifari (May Allah be pleased with him) reported that Allah's Messenger (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) as saying that Allah, The Great and Almighty, said: " O My Servants! I have made oppression Haram for Me Haram and amongst you, so do not oppress one another. O My Servants! All of you are astray except those whom I guide, so seek guidance from Me, and I will guide you. O My Servants! All of you are hungry except those whom I feed, so ask food from Me, and I will feed you. O My Servants! All of you are naked except those whom I provide garments, so seek clothes of Me, and I will clothe you.

O My Servants! You misbehave night and day, and I pardon your sins, so supplicate Me for forgiveness, and I will forgive you. O My Servants! You can not do Me harm, nor can you have power to do Me any good. O My Servants! If the first of you and the last of you, both human and jinn, become the most pious like the heart of a single person amongst you, nothing would add to My Kingdom. If the first of you and the last of you, both human and jinn, become the most impious like the heart of a single person among you, it would cause no loss to My Kingdom.

O My Servants! If both the first and the last of you, human and jinn, stand in one open plain and ask of Me and I grant everyone his need, it would not, in any way, cause any loss to Me (even less) than which is caused to the ocean by dipping a needle in it. O My Servants! These deeds of yours which I reckon up for you and I shall reward you for them; so he who finds good should praise Allah and he who finds something else should blame only himself." Reported by Muslim

5) Precedence of Human rights set by Muhammed (Sallaho Alaihe Wassallam):



In 628 C.E. Prophet Muhammad (s) granted a Charter of Privileges to the monks of St. Catherine Monastery in Mt. Sinai. It consisted of several clauses covering all aspects of human rights including such topics as the protection of Christians, freedom of worship and movement,

freedom to appoint their own judges and to own and maintain their property, exemption from military service, and the right to protection in war.
An English translation of that document is presented here:

This is a message from Muhammad ibn Abdullah, as a covenant to those who adopt Christianity, near and far, we are with them.

Verily I, the servants, the helpers, and my followers defend them, because Christians are my citizens; and by Allah! I hold out against anything that displeases them.

No compulsion is to be on them.

Neither are their judges to be removed from their jobs nor their monks from their monasteries.

No one is to destroy a house of their religion, to damage it, or to carry anything from it to the Muslims' houses.

Should anyone take any of these, he would spoil God's covenant and disobey His Prophet. Verily, they are my allies and have my secure charter against all that they hate.

No one is to force them to travel or to oblige them to fight.

The Muslims are to fight for them.

If a female Christian is married to a Muslim, it is not to take place without her approval. She is not to be prevented from visiting her church to pray.

Their churches are to be respected. They are neither to be prevented from repairing them nor the sacredness of their covenants.

No one of the nation (Muslims) is to disobey the covenant till the Last Day (end of the world).

This charter of privileges has been honoured and faithfully applied by Muslims throughout the centuries in all lands they ruled.


The above mentioned precedence was followed by Islamic empire till the day it was abolished in 1924. when Jews write about the Diaspora they freely admit, “The best days of our Diaspora was under Muslim Spain”.
 
F

fabs

Guest
Many of the points you raised such as US interference in South America is also in the context of the cold war, however unjustified it is by today's standards, I look at the threat communism used to be and consider it at the very least understandable.

Winston Churchill famously said Democracy is the worst system except for all the others that have been tried. I understand that you believe a system based on Islamic values might be a viable alternative but in practice I hardly believe that is necessarily true. A proper Democracy based on Human Rights is the best way to go even though it has its faults, You mention the possible laws of discrimination but these would be made invalid by a prevailing respect for people's freedoms. I'm talking about the citizen's state in Switzerland for instance or Luxembourg or France or Great Britain...

I'll repeat again that the USA has been the world power for a while now and sometimes one has to make decisions that don't please everyone, or at worst are sometimes wrong.
 

Globalpeace

Banned
Sorry but not convinced!

Fabs,

It’s nice to speak to you but I am not proposing an Islamic system because I am Muslim; I am proposing it because of historical precedence, consider the following:

1) Just go through Spain, Bulgaria, Hungary, Morocco, & Turkey (Around Europe) you will see Synagogues and Churches and people of these faiths co-existing today; the precedence set by the was Islamic empire.
2) Have you seen all those historic churches in Hungary; Who do you think protected, rebuilt and maintained them?
3) Have you seen one of the oldest synagogues in Europe on Bulgaria/Turkey border; who do you think protected, rebuilt, and maintained it?
4) Jews were allowed into Palestine under the Islamic empire; I am sure that you are aware of the Diaspora and know that they were forbidden to enter Jerusalem (under the Greek, Roman, and subsequent Christian regimes).
5) Who do you think protected, rebuilt and maintained both Christian and Jewish holy sites in Palestine?
6) Extend the circle outwards and look at India. Muslim ruled in India for over 800 years they were a minority and they are a monitory. Who do you think protected the Hindu places of worship during an Islamic regime?
7) Why do you think there are such a large number of Jews in Turkey; because they migrated to Muslim areas during the Spanish Inquisition.

Now lets consider the track record of democracy:

1) Muslim Women are regularly subjected to harassment over head scarves in the West
2) Muslim men are openly discriminated against on Airports on account of having beards
3) Faith school are a constant target by the media
4) Mosques are commonly bricked and windows smashed!
5) Immigrants with darker skin are regularly discriminated in all walks of life from Spain to Norway; if you live in Europe then you know this; if you choose to ignore it then that’s your issue

I am sorry but I am not convinced in mere theories of democracy; I have yet to see it function; I admit that it looks very good on paper.

Many of the points you raised such as US interference in South America is also in the context of the cold war, however unjustified it is by today's standards, I look at the threat communism used to be and consider it at the very least understandable.

Winston Churchill famously said Democracy is the worst system except for all the others that have been tried. I understand that you believe a system based on Islamic values might be a viable alternative but in practice I hardly believe that is necessarily true. A proper Democracy based on Human Rights is the best way to go even though it has its faults, You mention the possible laws of discrimination but these would be made invalid by a prevailing respect for people's freedoms. I'm talking about the citizen's state in Switzerland for instance or Luxembourg or France or Great Britain...

I'll repeat again that the USA has been the world power for a while now and sometimes one has to make decisions that don't please everyone, or at worst are sometimes wrong.
 

virtualeye

Tamed Brother
The difference is of course that the American SYSTEM itself does not legally allow such things to happen as it is a Democracy. Nor does Great Britain.
Things that happen during war time are very different than common policy in the home country.
In China, the almighty state is above everything including its own citizens. The people do not have the right to change their government as they see fit as there is but one Party.

I agree one hundred percent about the Saudis although I thought most Muslims considered them to be the Heavenly Kingdom above criticism, I guess that was inaccurate.


This gets me pretty strange. I did not know you are from America, but the reply immediately tells the story.

All the world knows every bit of the filthy American regime except "Americans". CNN and Sky must have done really hard to rape the brains of Americans. Kindly have a look at the other side of the picture too. I appreciate the positive and decent behaviors of many Americans but that does not justify the evil doings of American Regime.

It is my observation that most of Americans do not come out from their bubble of patriotism and pride. I must tell such Americans that:
There is more to the world than America.
There is more to the morals than what American Regimes defines.
There is more to the terrorism than what CNN and Fox pour in your brain.


Feel offended? I did not mean to, because I appreciate that you are out to search the truth and you must also have some sense of morality which keeps on making you uncomfortable about the cruelty in the world.

Kindly have a look at the follwing opinions of your own fellow Americans and Britishers:

'Noam Chomsky'
'Alex Jones'
'George Galloway'
'Robert Fisk'

You can search their videos in google video or youtube.

Bye.
 
F

fabs

Guest
The historical precendence you speak of obvioulsy didn't last given that there is no Islamic superpower today. The Ottoman Empire fell (which btw murdered 1.5 million Armenians on its way to the abyss), and many Arab nations came under foreign domination.

The Jews were not allowed to enter the old city of Jerusalem when it was occupied by the Jordanians (yes occupied as it formerly had belonged to the Arabs of Palestine) until 1967 only after which they could visit the Kotel(wailing wall).

Yes the Muslims have helped maintain religious sites of Christianity and Judaism for a long time thats true. However equally they provoked the ire of the Jews by building a Mosque on the Temple Mount, and the repercussionns are clear to see today.

Yes the Jews(Sephardim) ran to more tolerant Islamic areas to avoid presecution. I certainly would never dream of defending the savage witch-hunts of Christian Europe. Yes Islamic civilization WAS ahead of its tim back then.


On to your critique of democracy:

1. No, women wearing headscarves are tolerated here in the Western world. There is no law forbidding them to wear them out in public.
I could turn the question around: if a Jew walked around an Arab country with his kippah on, what do you think might happen?

2.Openly? Seriously, aircraft personnel have to be very careful on account of being accused of discrimination against others, but at the same time be mindful of the dangers and risks of the post- 911 world. Still thats not injustice your talking about. Nobody puts Muslims in jail just for being Muslims.

3.All things can be a target by the media. Thats the media!

4.What a bunch of bbrute racist louts do, has no correlation with the political
system. In France, likewise, Arab youths throw rocks at and set alight synagogues occasionally. IT doesn't mean it's any less a democracy given that the police go after the people responsable and don't just pat them on the back.

5. Disrimination is a sociological phenomenon, not a result of any political system. People dislike not because the State tells them to, but because of their own personal prejudices.



A function of democracy is the fact that you can practice your faith in the country you live in. This very existence of this internet forum is proof of democracy in action. You have the right to work and earn money without the state taking it all the way.
 

Globalpeace

Banned
Hmm...

Hi Fabs,

Having a great discussion; Thanks my friend…

1) I have previously agreed that there is no example of Islamic Empire today; I was merely comparing like for like (i.e. Islamic empire to modern democratic societies) & you still fail to give me a working “tolerant” democratic system; versus I have quoted many examples of a working Islamic system. Please note that the Islamic Empire fell because of NOT sticking to the Islamic principles and not because of it. The Armenian genocide is a case in point because it occurred towards the end (when the empire was at its end) as matter of fact it was conducted by Turkish military who claimed to be “secularist and nationalist” & not Muslims; a concept they heavily borrowed by the Fascists in Europe.

Please explain that if the Armenian genocide was Islamic then why was it was not done by the Islamic empire years earlier when it was stronger, militarily and economically more powerful? After all if they wanted they could have killed every single Non-Muslim in areas under Muslim rule? Why wait till the 20th century? Makes no sense!

2) You are making a classic mistake of equating the actions of modern Muslim states with Islam. Palestine was ruled by Islamic empire for 100’s of years (- 88 years under Christian rule) which if you are “unbiased” will freely admit is a taint on the character or Christianity, Europe & Europeans. I mean women raped, children killed in the hundreds (if not thousands) & all this is written by European (not Muslim from Saudi Arabia).

If you are familiar with history then you must have known what happened in 1917 (Balfour Accord) & then in 1948 (massacre of Muslim villagers in Dar Yassein); don’t ask me read the writing of unbiased Europeans who wrote about it!

Please provide me with an example of genocide conducted by the Islamic empire on Jews & Christians?

I am sure you are familiar with more then one conducted by Europeans.

3) Do you really believe that the Muslims built a Mosque on Temple Mount? Are you serious?
4) Ok…

On democracy:

1) So you have dodged the question of girls forbidden to wear scarves in School? Please take the Ferry to Tangier, Morocco. Take the Taxi to City-centre and you WILL see Jews wearing the Kipa in an Arab country (next to Europe) in 2007
2) Are you sure about that? Police regularly breaks down doors in Europe on “suspicion” and it’s the law. Its enough to air “Political views”, read and cite certain texts and you WILL get arrested; are you familiar with section 57 of Terrorist Act 2001, if not I suggest you read it and seek legal advice.
3) Media is given “Freedom to Insult” by democracy. Islamic media still to this day doesn’t print insulted cartoons of Jesus, Mary or anyone else. Movies like “Life of Brian” & “The DaVinci code” are not made by Muslims…but shameful sketches, articles and accusations about Muslims and Islam regularly appear in the Western media
4) So you really think that a bunch of Arabs have got nothing better to do & no reason to set cars on fire. I am no way defending their actions as they are unIslamic but you obviously speak French and must have known the comments made by “An Office bearer” of a democratic system.

Do you now think that this “official” should have been reprimanded and removed from Office?

Do you see democracy at work?

Surely you know how the French feel and what they say & YES the democratic system provides the underpinnings of discrimination because the majority of French can vote and they choose to vote in a certain manner.

Even if discrimination is a social phenomenon, its underpinnings are not. No social phenomenon can survive without at least “Tacit” approval.

Problem with discrimination is that you only see it when it happens to you. Try having a darker skin and a beard and go through Brussels!

5) Democracy is nothing but a charade; lets take America for example…2 parties contend elections and one of them wins:

a) If I offer you a Glass of Water or a Cup of Water; is that a choice?
b) Last 16 presidents in America came from just 20 Ivy League schools? Is that a choice?


I think you are making the classic mistake of equating a system that you are used to & understand into thinking that it is the best. I have already admitted that the despotic regimes setup, financed and run by the West (& there is clear evidence for this) are not Islamic…

I am discussing historical precedence here (Islamic Empire vs. Euope today) & I think you have agreed (although tacitly & low key) that it was better & tolerant then today.

I invite you to shed the bias & study Islam for what it is. I live in the West & go through these arguments all the time & often find that Non-Muslims either lack historical knowledge or purposely fail to admit to the superiority of Islam & its system.

We can keep on comparing Islam (NOT Muslims today) point-by-point to the West and keep coming up with the same conclusions.
Yes militarily and financially Europe is strong today but then in history so were the Greeks & the Romans and their system was thought to be the best; its only human nature.

There must be reason why all these Europeans are turning to Islam?

Why are the (particularly women) turning to a System which is inferior to democracy?




The historical precendence you speak of obvioulsy didn't last given that there is no Islamic superpower today. The Ottoman Empire fell (which btw murdered 1.5 million Armenians on its way to the abyss), and many Arab nations came under foreign domination.

The Jews were not allowed to enter the old city of Jerusalem when it was occupied by the Jordanians (yes occupied as it formerly had belonged to the Arabs of Palestine) until 1967 only after which they could visit the Kotel(wailing wall).

Yes the Muslims have helped maintain religious sites of Christianity and Judaism for a long time thats true. However equally they provoked the ire of the Jews by building a Mosque on the Temple Mount, and the repercussionns are clear to see today.

Yes the Jews(Sephardim) ran to more tolerant Islamic areas to avoid presecution. I certainly would never dream of defending the savage witch-hunts of Christian Europe. Yes Islamic civilization WAS ahead of its tim back then.


On to your critique of democracy:

1. No, women wearing headscarves are tolerated here in the Western world. There is no law forbidding them to wear them out in public.
I could turn the question around: if a Jew walked around an Arab country with his kippah on, what do you think might happen?

2.Openly? Seriously, aircraft personnel have to be very careful on account of being accused of discrimination against others, but at the same time be mindful of the dangers and risks of the post- 911 world. Still thats not injustice your talking about. Nobody puts Muslims in jail just for being Muslims.

3.All things can be a target by the media. Thats the media!

4.What a bunch of bbrute racist louts do, has no correlation with the political
system. In France, likewise, Arab youths throw rocks at and set alight synagogues occasionally. IT doesn't mean it's any less a democracy given that the police go after the people responsable and don't just pat them on the back.

5. Disrimination is a sociological phenomenon, not a result of any political system. People dislike not because the State tells them to, but because of their own personal prejudices.



A function of democracy is the fact that you can practice your faith in the country you live in. This very existence of this internet forum is proof of democracy in action. You have the right to work and earn money without the state taking it all the way.
 

Globalpeace

Banned
WHY DEMOCRACY IS WRONG?

Old Article; but makes interesting points I think the 1st 2 paragraphs are enough!


Democracy does not deserve the semi-sacred status accorded to it. In Europe, democratically elected politicians such as Jörg Haider, Jean-Marie Le Pen, Silvio Berlusconi, Umberto Bossi, Gianfranco Fini and Pim Fortuyn are a reminder of democracy's defects: an anti-racist dictatorship is preferable to a racist democracy. Democracy is expanding globally, but not because of its moral superiority. Military intervention is now the standard origin of democratic political systems. Any universal ideology will tend to crusades and messianic conquest, and democracies feel entitled to 'bring freedom' to other countries. Below, more on the ethical problems, definitions of democracy, the issue of inequality, the defects of democratic culture, the nation as the 'demos', the claimed justifications for democracy, and alternatives to democracy.

In a large ocean there are two neighbouring islands: faultless democracies with full civil and political rights. One island is extremely rich and prosperous, and has 10 million inhabitants. The other is extremely poor: it has 100 million inhabitants, who live by subsistence farming. After a bad harvest last year, there are no food stocks, and now the harvest has failed again: 90 million people are facing death by starvation. The democratically elected government of the poor island asks for help, and the democratically elected government of the rich island organises a referendum on the issue. There are three options: Option A is a sharp increase in taxes, to pay for large-scale permanent structural transfers to the poor island. Option B is some increase in taxes, to pay for immediate and sufficient humanitarian aid, so that famine will be averted. Option C is no extra taxes and no aid. When the votes are counted, 100% of the voters have chosen Option C. After all, who wants to pay more taxes?

Read the rest at: http://web.inter.nl.net/users/Paul.Treanor/democracy.html

I disagree with some of the things on his site but he makes compeling arguments against democracy.
 

umm hussain

Junior Member
T

1. No, women wearing headscarves are tolerated here in the Western world. There is no law forbidding them to wear them out in public.
I could turn the question around: if a Jew walked around an Arab country with his kippah on, what do you think might happen?

2.Openly? Seriously, aircraft personnel have to be very careful on account of being accused of discrimination against others, but at the same time be mindful of the dangers and risks of the post- 911 world. Still thats not injustice your talking about. Nobody puts Muslims in jail just for being Muslims.

3.All things can be a target by the media. Thats the media!

4.What a bunch of bbrute racist louts do, has no correlation with the political
system. In France, likewise, Arab youths throw rocks at and set alight synagogues occasionally. IT doesn't mean it's any less a democracy given that the police go after the people responsable and don't just pat them on the back.

5. Disrimination is a sociological phenomenon, not a result of any political system. People dislike not because the State tells them to, but because of their own personal prejudices.



A function of democracy is the fact that you can practice your faith in the country you live in. This very existence of this internet forum is proof of democracy in action. You have the right to work and earn money without the state taking it all the way.

I thought democracy says freedom of religion so if I am not tolerated because I choose to wear my hijab according to the teachings of my religion, where is the democracy. There is a law preventing Muslims from wearing hijab in Government buldings, including schools, hospitals etc, in some Western countries. When a Roman Catholic Nun wears a hijab it just makes her closer to God, and if a Muslim woman does that, she is oppressed. First tell the nuns to take off their hijabs. Why is hijab not tolerated on a muslim woman yet a non is very much tolerated. Double standards. Jewish men have beards, even famous scientists keep beards, so why not Muslim men. Ask the Jews to shave theirs off first. You also mention that the existence of this internet forum is proof of democracy in action, i think this a bit naive, first of all the internet is for anyone and you have to be searching for a particular thing to come across this sight for example. Why don't they have an 'extremist' channel on tv just like they have the 'secular' 'islamic' channels. Why are 'extremists' not allowed to air their views without being censored or misquoted. Why are 'extremists' not allowed to defend themselves.

Why is it that in a democratic country, a person can be detained indefinitely in the name of 'national security.' Why do the rules change when there are Muslims involved, In fighting 'terror' democracy is forgotten. There are so many innocent Muslims detained by America and its Allies all over the world, Saudi Arabia included.

For your own information Jews and Christians live in harmony in Muslim countries with Muslims. I know some Christians who have been living there for years and do not even dream of coming back and living in the West because of the peace and security there. You do not have to worry about being, mugged by some drunken person etc.(you might give a few numbers of these incidences but if we really want to look at statistics the number is almost 1%) They can leave their businesses unlocked for lunch. No one will attack an innocent person just because they are of a different faith.

You also mention that 'Arab youths throw rocks at and set alight synagogues occasionally.' In other countries Muslim youths are gunned down or bombed for throwing stones at enemy tanks. Why if Muslims do something as defence they are then said to be the attackers. I am not defending these youths who do this, because I do not know first of all if they actually done it or why anyway You will always find a few ignorant people every where. We are not talking about individuals here. A lot of people in the west also campaigned against war in Iraq for example but that doesnt mean the government is a fair government.

Muslims ARE put in prison and tortured just for being Muslim, walk in the shoes of muslims one day. If I was to ask you if these are YOUR VIEWS, you express, most probably not, just repeating what you have heard. It is high time people open their eyes to see the wider picture, dont base your knowledge on media. You say Media picks on anyone because it is the Media. Is there a day that goes by without the word 'muslim,' 'extremist', 'fundamentalist' etc not mentioned in the media. Some people are even becoming Muslim because that is all they see in the Media so they decide to find out what this "Islam" is really all about only to find out the teachings are contrary to what is being said.


You say in the light of 9/11, it is justified for Muslims to be searched, who says 9/11 was done by Muslims in the first place, the MEDIA again right. Anyway that is another subject all together.
 

hussain.mahammed

a lonely traveller
As salamu alaykum wa rahmatullahi wabrakatuhu
Jazakumullah khair brother globalpeace and sister umm hussain. I think fabs should look into the misconceptions the western media has created of Islam.This website is to clear such misconceptions about Islam, so I hope you browse through the pages of this site where you will come across the truth Insha Allah Taala.
Regarding your comment that Islam is not a political system, well I just got to say that Islam is the Answer to any problem in this world. Islam is the best of religions, The best of the ways of lives, the best of Political Systems, In fact the best of everything.
But sadly the Muslim Ummah is not united and the regimes of the Middle East are the worst in Human History, playing the role of double standards. Mere hypocrites and puppets of the Western Regimes.
Back to the topic of inhuman tortures by the Chinese Authorities, they are no less evil than Bush or His allies. They murder muslim men,women and children and hide it so that nobody knows.
wa/salam
 

hussain.mahammed

a lonely traveller
Hello Mr Fabs
First of all I would like to request you to stop disrespecting and dishonouring other members out here, especially muslim sisters. In Islam we are taught to be respectful to other people irrespective of his religion,gender or any other status.
Secondly, This topic is about Violation of Human Rights in China not speaking about your mere fantasies or tales.
Thirdly, I dont want to argue but would like to leave a small piece of advice for you " The wise man does not argue or seek to overcome with stratagem, rather he propagates his wisdom. If accepted he praises Allah (Almighty Creator), if rejected he praises Allah. "
Click on the famous quotes link on my signature. I hope you like them insha Allah Taala, and learn something. We are here to learn from each other. I leave you in the care of Almighty Allah The Lord The Creator The Sustainer The Cherisher The Provider of All and May He guide you.
wa/salam
 

Globalpeace

Banned
Hi Fab,

Turn to Islam my friend and study it without Bias.

I detect a bit of sarcasism and anger in your tone but I will ignore it; plus you are not providing any references to your claims.

I am not looking for examples of democracy, I am looking for a historical comparison of Islamic Empire (Islam) to democracy...Did you know that people in Iraq under Saddam got fed when they were hungary and slept safe; so does that make Saddam right & Bush wrong?

You are arguing superficially!

1) Hitler, Massoulini, Pim Fortuyn & Jean-Marie Le Pen in Europe and the rise of far-right in elctions? "Gifts of democracy" to all of us immigrants and you still insist on calling it a good system? Hmm...OK!

"In the Ottoman Empire intolerance and massacres against the Armenians had been happening over hundreds of years?" Can you please quote the source and explain as to why the Armenians were targetted? Surely there were other more vulnerable christians around?

2) Please give me some specific example of which war of Muhammed you are referring to & which act of genocide he committed against the Jews? I have already stated that am I trying to discuss Islam and not Muslim countries but you have again quoted Pakistan (a present day Muslim country where I was born and lived); please provide textual evidence of genocide in Pakistan (News to me, really) & then lets compare it to the massacres in Bosnia & 2nd World war!

Here is a frank analysis of Pakistan & Christians:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1625976.stm

Lets see which masacare you are talking about?

3) So you really believe that the Muslims built a Mosque there forceably??? are you really not aware of any peace treaties or you havn't had a chance to look this up? or do you take the line of the media completely...If that is the extent of your research on history then I am disappointed...

Please read about it (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dome_of_the_Rock)....Please note that I have purposlly given you a Non-Muslim site so you won't accuse me of Bias!

Please don't forget to provide me with your evidence of "destruction" and forcible rebuilding" etc."

Back to democracy:

1) So its OK in democracy to trample over the rights of others as long as Majority agrees? Refer to my first message & the biggest problem with democracy..Majority rules, minority suffers. Hmm, interesting, very interesting...So majority was correct into thinking that blacks were genetically inferior?

2) So Brutal laws and picking on people based on their ethinicity are correct as long as they receive press coverage?

3) So hurting people's feeling is correct as long as its balanced? Lets hurts the feelings of millions of Muslims as long as we also include Budha to show some sort of balance....I don't agree with the Arab media but look at your own words "Anti-Semitic" and "West"

a) First there is a difference between making fun of people's beleives and people themselves...

b) Do you really think Arabs can be Anti-semities considering that they are "Semities" themselves? Do you know what Semite means, my dear friend.

4) I am sure that you know France took millions of immigrant workers in the 50's & 60's because of shortage of workers after the war and then "democracy" totally ignored these millions (for generations")...France is a classic example of why democracy is BAD! If you don't mind me asking can you please tell me how your jamaican mother got into Europe?

5) Really! I remeber elections in 1992 when Ross Perot was there...if you remember Jesse Jackson (black) also stood for elections & they used to openly say in North Carolina (where I was)...It will take another 200 years for a "Nigger (polite people used the word Black") to become the president of this country? democracy at work Ay!

You DON'T think Saudia is run by America? How old are you son & what's your educational background?

You do have a sense of humour!

You don't think Islam has a political system so it ruled the world for hundreds of years (without one)...Bunch of barbarins making it up as they go along? What do you mean you think my friend, do you any basis of your argument?

You admitted earlier that Islamic empire had a good track record with minorities (apart from Armenia that you have quoted) but you still beleive that today's system is better? Hmm..OK! How does that work?

Islam was a powerful empire with no challenge, they could have KILLED every Non-Muslim if they wanted to...Democracy failed to protect the genocide of 2nd World War & Bosnia...And you still think democracy is better! Hmm..OK! How does that work?


So you beleive that millions (I mean millions) turning to Islam in the West are silly, lonely, depressed people; although you believe some to be true! Don't you think that you are being judgemental (my freind) or at least unfair to millions as you seem to think that they are falling into a trap (an inferior system)?

Have you read the social backgrouns of some of reverts on this site?...Do you think a western woman with a Post-Graduate degree is unable to make up her mind about which religion to follow?

Oh...Yeah here is a lone, depressed silly woman who choose to join an inferior system

http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8163

Now why did she give up her Bikini...I suppose she couldn't think straight!

How Insulting and bigoted my friend and that's all I can say.
 

Globalpeace

Banned
Bad thins in Islam?

Fabs,

Please feel free to list all bad things in Islam (with references) that you are aware of as I can come with many in democracy.

You seem to defending what I keep writing.

Lets wipe the slate, shall we?

Lets turn the tables; what do you think is wrong with Islam?
 
F

fabs

Guest
Hi Fab,

Turn to Islam my friend and study it without Bias.

I detect a bit of sarcasism and anger in your tone but I will ignore it; plus you are not providing any references to your claims.

I am not looking for examples of democracy, I am looking for a historical comparison of Islamic Empire (Islam) to democracy...Did you know that people in Iraq under Saddam got fed when they were hungary and slept safe; so does that make Saddam right & Bush wrong?

You are arguing superficially!

1) Hitler, Massoulini, Pim Fortuyn & Jean-Marie Le Pen in Europe and the rise of far-right in elctions? "Gifts of democracy" to all of us immigrants and you still insist on calling it a good system? Hmm...OK!

"In the Ottoman Empire intolerance and massacres against the Armenians had been happening over hundreds of years?" Can you please quote the source and explain as to why the Armenians were targetted? Surely there were other more vulnerable christians around?

2) Please give me some specific example of which war of Muhammed you are referring to & which act of genocide he committed against the Jews? I have already stated that am I trying to discuss Islam and not Muslim countries but you have again quoted Pakistan (a present day Muslim country where I was born and lived); please provide textual evidence of genocide in Pakistan (News to me, really) & then lets compare it to the massacres in Bosnia & 2nd World war!

Here is a frank analysis of Pakistan & Christians:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1625976.stm

Lets see which masacare you are talking about?

3) So you really believe that the Muslims built a Mosque there forceably??? are you really not aware of any peace treaties or you havn't had a chance to look this up? or do you take the line of the media completely...If that is the extent of your research on history then I am disappointed...

Please read about it (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dome_of_the_Rock)....Please note that I have purposlly given you a Non-Muslim site so you won't accuse me of Bias!

Please don't forget to provide me with your evidence of "destruction" and forcible rebuilding" etc."

Back to democracy:

1) So its OK in democracy to trample over the rights of others as long as Majority agrees? Refer to my first message & the biggest problem with democracy..Majority rules, minority suffers. Hmm, interesting, very interesting...So majority was correct into thinking that blacks were genetically inferior?

2) So Brutal laws and picking on people based on their ethinicity are correct as long as they receive press coverage?

3) So hurting people's feeling is correct as long as its balanced? Lets hurts the feelings of millions of Muslims as long as we also include Budha to show some sort of balance....I don't agree with the Arab media but look at your own words "Anti-Semitic" and "West"

a) First there is a difference between making fun of people's beleives and people themselves...

b) Do you really think Arabs can be Anti-semities considering that they are "Semities" themselves? Do you know what Semite means, my dear friend.

4) I am sure that you know France took millions of immigrant workers in the 50's & 60's because of shortage of workers after the war and then "democracy" totally ignored these millions (for generations")...France is a classic example of why democracy is BAD! If you don't mind me asking can you please tell me how your jamaican mother got into Europe?

5) Really! I remeber elections in 1992 when Ross Perot was there...if you remember Jesse Jackson (black) also stood for elections & they used to openly say in North Carolina (where I was)...It will take another 200 years for a "Nigger (polite people used the word Black") to become the president of this country? democracy at work Ay!

You DON'T think Saudia is run by America? How old are you son & what's your educational background?

You do have a sense of humour!

You don't think Islam has a political system so it ruled the world for hundreds of years (without one)...Bunch of barbarins making it up as they go along? What do you mean you think my friend, do you any basis of your argument?

You admitted earlier that Islamic empire had a good track record with minorities (apart from Armenia that you have quoted) but you still beleive that today's system is better? Hmm..OK! How does that work?

Islam was a powerful empire with no challenge, they could have KILLED every Non-Muslim if they wanted to...Democracy failed to protect the genocide of 2nd World War & Bosnia...And you still think democracy is better! Hmm..OK! How does that work?


So you beleive that millions (I mean millions) turning to Islam in the West are silly, lonely, depressed people; although you believe some to be true! Don't you think that you are being judgemental (my freind) or at least unfair to millions as you seem to think that they are falling into a trap (an inferior system)?

Have you read the social backgrouns of some of reverts on this site?...Do you think a western woman with a Post-Graduate degree is unable to make up her mind about which religion to follow?

There's no anger or sarcasm in my tone. I'm coldly objectively answering as I would anything else.

Yes I'm sure Saddam under crippling sanctions preferred to feed his people rather than support Palestinian terror groups, prop up his own regime and keep a certain military arsenal all while building up his huge palaces.
I'm presenting the argument as you are.


1. Yes your really bringing up the ideal politicians there aren't you. Hitler and Musselini! Musselini however led a coup d'etat against the government (March on Rome) Hitler caused the Reichstag fire to get more votes. Jean-Marie Le Pen didn't even come close to being elected and Pim Fortuyn got shot. There goes your argument.

Examples of Armenian persecution and massacres? here you go http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamidian_massacres

2. Now who's being superficial. I was referrring to genocide in Pakistan committed against Hindus most of all. I could also mention the Bangladesh War of 1971 where hundreds of thousands were killed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1971_Bangladesh_atrocities

As for the wars between Mohammed and the Jews here: The Jewish tribe of Al-Nadir, Qurayzah, Khazbar were put to the sword.

3. It's about the triumph of the strongest. The Muslims controlled Jerusalem and felt free to build whatever they wanted on the Temple Mount. You can cite all the treaties you want...


On to democracy (again):

1.No thats why their our standards of human rights. It certainly however isn't right for a minority to be allowed to dictate to and intimidate the majority.

2. Your bringing up another banal argument. Cite your own sources and examples.

3. I'm not sure why Muslims all over the world should care about what one newspaper in a small country like Denmark prints in its newspaper. I think it was just another reason to go up in arms about something. Either way to this day I still don't understand why the Danish government was supposed to apologize for... An independant democratic press doesn't print what the government wants necessarily. Again you've skipped my example of South Park which regularly makes fun all religious figures. To this day noone has lynched Mat Stone.

Don't go into silly semantics. You know very well the definition of Anti-Semitic.

4. Not to go too deep into it but my mother moved to Canada, met my father there then they moved together to Europe. In France democracy is respected, the immigrants got the chance to come to Europe and were made French citizens with the same rights. Some worked hard and prospered, some didn't.

5.If Saudi Arabia were run by the US they would have recognized Israel by now and stopped funding Islamic extremist groups. (How old are you son & what's your educational background?)Thanks for another compliment.
How about the idea that people didn't like Jesse Jackson ,not because he was black, but because he was an ass, a hypocrite who depended on his being black to win an election. The current black politician Barack Obama however is quite well liked by many people in the US because he's educated, speaks
clearly and is not a hypocrite.

The forces of the West DID intervene in WW2 and in Kosovo. They were however too late in the former but they did do SOMETHING. Some people like to quote Noam Chomsky as the only wise American but he happened to be one of the fatheads that opposed intervening in Kosovo.
Oh and it was a totalitarian anti-democratic force that started the genocide in the first place.


I'll modify the position on the converts, I'll also add to my list the most dangerous kind. The politically motivated converts, many of them self-hating British and American bourgeois that find an anti-establishment and spiritual doctrine in Islam, as well as those who feel sympathetic to the Palestinian cause and hatred towards Israel. And of course there are those disillusioned by the old religions(Judaism and Christianity) looking for something new, with a thriving community. Also if you're motivated enough to be able to enter Mecca. Believe it or not, I support anyones right to convert to Islam, but very often I've asked myself why they do.

(How Insulting and bigoted my friend and that's all I can say.) I'm sorry you've become so angry but understand that I just have different views than a lot of people you're used to talking to on the forum.
 

Globalpeace

Banned
Hi Fabs,

I am glad that you have cleared up that the fact that you are not angry; neither am I, Sorry if it comes across that way.

Not angry & I am quiet enjoying this discussion…I love it and fully appreciate that you have a different point of view

I was making a point about judging superficially not defending Saddam or his regime. “Superficially” people were better off during Saddam days that doesn’t make the Saddam system better; just like if today (in your opinion) people have the Internet and access to forums that doesn’t necessarily make democracy an ideal system.

1) Simple case in point is democracy gave rise to demons like them; I am not concerned with the results and what happened thereafter but democracy let people forward; just like across Europe today right wing people are winning…Democracy doesn’t have a conscious and that’s the point I am making. A third rate person like George Bush won because of democracy. Democracy is a man-made system and susceptible to errors; it can improve but its underpinnings are shaky, if Europe decides to start putting Muslims in concentration camps & if this gets to the popular vote then that’s what will happen; here democracy for you.

Let’s evaluate the previous gifts of democracy one by one…

Hitler won in a democratic election http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler

Benito Mussolini won a democratic election http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benito_Mussolini

Le Pen’s party continues to rise despite its known racists views http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Marie_Le_Pen

Pim Fortuyn: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pim_Fortuyn What’s his killing got to do with life???


2) About the Armenian genocide; you forget to factor in 1 important detail i.e. there are no accounts from the Turkish government of the time as to what really happened. Everyone seems to be quoting 1 side of the Story (ie. Western Story) who had a serious vested interest in the decline of the Otoman Empire.

Enjoy this quotation from the Muslim Caliph at the time,

in 1922 Sultan Mohammed Vl put it quite succinctly and pointedly, when he told the American writer E. Alexander Powell:

“If we sent one, your newspapers and periodicals would not publish an article written by a Turk, if they published it, your people would not read it, if they read it, they would not believe it. Even if we sent a qualified person to America, to convey to you in your language, the Turkish point of view, would he find an impartial audience?” [Gurun, File, p. 37]

Please read the article again (Background) & you may find that the blame is placed on Russian Imperialism rather then Islam.

Afterwards I urge you to read the following argument by Professor Justin Mcarthy. http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/background.htm

3) No not being superficial at all about Pakistan or anything else. You continue to ascribe Islam to the actions of Muslims and go off the subject (i.e. Islam vs. Democracy); in any case the so called Massacre of 1971 is disputed (see the casualty reports and other reports on the Internet; if you think that Pakistan Army had the capabilities to fight a war (against India), fight a counter-terrorism campaign (against he locals) and still find time to rape 400,000….All I can say is stunning performance by an army.

What happened was regretful; but how is that attributed to Islam?

Yes there were human rights violation and it is detestable & I have already clearly stated that actions of Muslims are not synonymous with Islam. Furthermore Bangladesh/Pakistan was Muslim against Muslim…Hindus were supported by India and incited to fight against India. Please don’t twist history and quote out of context & I am in no way justifying or appreciating what happened.

No idea as to where you get the idea that the tribes were massacred, here is a link & you can read that THEY LEFT MEDINA with all their wealth & goods. They were expelled NOT massacred!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Nadir

Here is a detailed study about the rest of the tribes that you have described

http://www.jews-for-allah.org/jewish-mythson-islam/muhammad_900_jews_notkilled.htm

4) I have not quoted any treaties but have asked you to provide evidence as to where you have gotten this idea and so far none has came forth. You keep giving your opinions about what happened!


On democracy:

1 & 2) You have twisted my original query, but I will answer it anyway, because it appears that you have not read the full report that I quoted:

First, no constitutional rights are absolute: President Bush showed how easy it is to overturn fundamental constitutional protections. Simply by redefining some American citizens as 'illegal enemy combatants', he was able to intern them. Some groups are in any case openly excluded from the usual democratic rights, most notably illegal immigrants (more on this later). The Australian government detains asylum seekers in internment camps in the desert: its hard line accurately reflects the attitudes of a racist electorate. The detainees can't vote, can't engage in political activities, and have no free press, but Australia is still considered a democracy.
The second problem is that basic rights allow wide limits. Treatment of minorities may be harsh and humiliating, without infringing their rights. A recent example in the Netherlands is a proposal to impose compulsory genital inspections for ethnic minorities. The aim is to combat female genital mutilation, but every ethnic Somali parent, regardless of their own circumstances, would be obliged to present their daughters for annual genital inspection. Eritreans, Egyptian and Sudanese might be included under the legal obligation, even if they were naturalised Dutch citizens. The proposal has majority support in Parliament. It is not law yet, but since Somali's are a marginalised and often despised minority in the Netherlands, there is nothing they can do to prevent its implementation.
So long as they avoid certain types of policy, and outright violence, democracy allows a democratic majority to impose its will on a minority. They can impose their language and a culture, and both impositions are normal practice in nation states. They can also impose their values, which may be unacceptable to the minority: the best example is democratic prohibitions of alcohol or drugs. Alcohol prohibition in the United States, enforced through a constitutional amendment, was a direct result of democracy. Since there was (and is) no 'right to drink', the Christian anti-alcohol majority could simply use the democratic process, to make their values the national values. 'Prohibition' was repealed in 1933, but the 'War on Drugs' of the last 20 years is at least as comprehensive in terms of policy and effects. Successful prohibition movements are a special case of the inherent anti-minority bias in democracies.
There is a more general effect: it is very difficult for an innovative minority to succeed in a democracy - and most innovations are first proposed by a minority. Like many political systems, democracy has an inherent bias toward the existing, as against the possible. Innovations must go through the political process, which in that sense is an anti-innovative barrier, but the existing social order does not have to prove its existence rights. A large-scale example of failed innovation in democracies is the European high-speed rail network, first proposed in the 1970's. Since then, not even planned national networks have been completed. The pan-European project failed primarily due to lack of political enthusiasm. But should it be abandoned, simply because there is insufficient 'will of the people'? If an innovation has no democratic mandate then a democracy will not implement it - but should democracy have this priority over innovation? The issues are scarcely considered in democratic theory: the priority is simply taken for granted.

4) What’s so hard to understand that those cartoons were hurtful to Muslim? And for your information Muslim did protest about South Park…And you have still answered the original query as to why the double standards? If displaying filth about the Prophet of Islam is “Freedom of expression” then why is “questioning the Holocaust” illegal?

Furthermore is insulting someone’s belief OK as long as it’s balanced? I.e. as long as all religious heads are equally targeted?

Lastly the reality of democracy at work in Denmark is highlighted in this report http://www.islamonline.net/English/EuropeanMuslims/CommunityCivilSociety/2006/06/02.shtml

Semantics? Arabs & Jews are both Semites and even you would know the number of Jews that lived in Palestine today compared to today; how is that semantics? Are you deliberately twisting the point again!

No I don’t know the definition of Anti-Semitic and please enlighten me to as how it’s copyrighted to “Jews” and “Arabs” excluded!

Read some good articles by “Jews” about this term:

http://www.counterpunch.org/solomon05082006.html

http://www.counterpunch.org/cockburn0516.html

http://www.counterpunch.org/gordon11082006.html

Good on your Mom & Dad!

We will see about Obama! Let “democracy” work its magic!

5) If you know anything about Oil economy and the relationship between the US Dollar & Oil then you would know that YES US runs Saudi Arabia. US dollar is permanently hedged at 3.75 Riyaal/Dollar and that a fact. To borrow one of your phrases if Saudia openly did what you are suggesting they will get lynched.
6) Your apology is accepted and I do understand that that some come to Islam because of something different; but surely not millions? I don’t get your point; you stated earlier that Islam has no politics then how can reverts be exploited something that doesn’t exist! So you do accept that Islam has a political system else the reverts won’t be exploiting it!

Not angry my friend, just astonished at your earlier position; I am glad that you see the point in it; Thanks


There's no anger or sarcasm in my tone. I'm coldly objectively answering as I would anything else.

Yes I'm sure Saddam under crippling sanctions preferred to feed his people rather than support Palestinian terror groups, prop up his own regime and keep a certain military arsenal all while building up his huge palaces.
I'm presenting the argument as you are.


1. Yes your really bringing up the ideal politicians there aren't you. Hitler and Musselini! Musselini however led a coup d'etat against the government (March on Rome) Hitler caused the Reichstag fire to get more votes. Jean-Marie Le Pen didn't even come close to being elected and Pim Fortuyn got shot. There goes your argument.

Examples of Armenian persecution and massacres? here you go http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamidian_massacres

2. Now who's being superficial. I was referrring to genocide in Pakistan committed against Hindus most of all. I could also mention the Bangladesh War of 1971 where hundreds of thousands were killed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1971_Bangladesh_atrocities

As for the wars between Mohammed and the Jews here: The Jewish tribe of Al-Nadir, Qurayzah, Khazbar were put to the sword.

3. It's about the triumph of the strongest. The Muslims controlled Jerusalem and felt free to build whatever they wanted on the Temple Mount. You can cite all the treaties you want...


On to democracy (again):

1.No thats why their our standards of human rights. It certainly however isn't right for a minority to be allowed to dictate to and intimidate the majority.

2. Your bringing up another banal argument. Cite your own sources and examples.

3. I'm not sure why Muslims all over the world should care about what one newspaper in a small country like Denmark prints in its newspaper. I think it was just another reason to go up in arms about something. Either way to this day I still don't understand why the Danish government was supposed to apologize for... An independant democratic press doesn't print what the government wants necessarily. Again you've skipped my example of South Park which regularly makes fun all religious figures. To this day noone has lynched Mat Stone.

Don't go into silly semantics. You know very well the definition of Anti-Semitic.

4. Not to go too deep into it but my mother moved to Canada, met my father there then they moved together to Europe. In France democracy is respected, the immigrants got the chance to come to Europe and were made French citizens with the same rights. Some worked hard and prospered, some didn't.

5.If Saudi Arabia were run by the US they would have recognized Israel by now and stopped funding Islamic extremist groups. (How old are you son & what's your educational background?)Thanks for another compliment.
How about the idea that people didn't like Jesse Jackson ,not because he was black, but because he was an ass, a hypocrite who depended on his being black to win an election. The current black politician Barack Obama however is quite well liked by many people in the US because he's educated, speaks
clearly and is not a hypocrite.

The forces of the West DID intervene in WW2 and in Kosovo. They were however too late in the former but they did do SOMETHING. Some people like to quote Noam Chomsky as the only wise American but he happened to be one of the fatheads that opposed intervening in Kosovo.
Oh and it was a totalitarian anti-democratic force that started the genocide in the first place.


I'll modify the position on the converts, I'll also add to my list the most dangerous kind. The politically motivated converts, many of them self-hating British and American bourgeois that find an anti-establishment and spiritual doctrine in Islam, as well as those who feel sympathetic to the Palestinian cause and hatred towards Israel. And of course there are those disillusioned by the old religions(Judaism and Christianity) looking for something new, with a thriving community. Also if you're motivated enough to be able to enter Mecca. Believe it or not, I support anyones right to convert to Islam, but very often I've asked myself why they do.

(How Insulting and bigoted my friend and that's all I can say.) I'm sorry you've become so angry but understand that I just have different views than a lot of people you're used to talking to on the forum.
 
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