Violation of Human Rights in China

[Globalpeace]

Fabs,

Please don't understand me; I genuinely want you to discuss what you find objectionable in Islam, and as we have both admitted that the ations of Muslims are not necessarily Islam....

Politicised Islam? Hmm...

Don't you think there are reasons for it...Isn't democracy one of them? Resulting in foreign policies drafted by people put in the office with popular vote?

The leaders are simply fulfilling people's will!

Don't you see democracy doesn't have a conscious...Its deaf, dumb and blind and has intense fury!

You can't make Muslim Youth passive without addressing the reasons for them becoming politically active (your words).

Is sticking our for your Brothers/Sisters who are bulldozed while still inside their home, in your view political?

I haven't criticized Islam so far as I can recollect. I just don't believe a state should be a theocracy based on Sharia Law.
I will admit that I don't like this politicized Islam that's finding popularity among the youth.

You want my positive views on Islam? Here they are:
It is one of the three Abrahamic faiths that honour the prophets of the Torah and Gospel. It teaches religious values and is helping keep belief in one God alive in a rapidly moving world. It extended this belief all the way to Indonesia. It in parts respects while acknowledging itself as divine truth, respects the teachings of Judaism and Christianity. It brings monotheism to more then 1 billion people on this earth.

 

[Globalpeace]

Islam vs Christianity (Track record)

Hi Fabs,

I believe that we are going round in circles but I think that maybe your fears regarding theocratic State lie is Europe's history with religion.

Europe's history with Christianity is shameful & hence best avoided.

Europe's history with Islam on the other hand is enlightened (Spain) and even your main objection is Armenia, you accept the better treatment of minorities by Islam & so on.

Like any good researcher have you thought about bias?

 

[virtualeye]

Hello fabs,

I think its not about the arguments, its about not accepting them. I can understand how hard it is for a person to give up and accept the reality.
You would feel insulted if someone says you have been overleart by the media, it is very difficult to accept but it is what it is.

Nobody knows the thousands of Muslims killed, burnt and raped in Indian Gujraat under the umbrella of Chief Minister of the province. But people know very well about few hindus discriminated in Pakistan as a reaction. Because CNN and Sky says that.

Nobody knows the 100,000 Kashmiris killed by the Indian troops, yet everyone knows Kashmiris are terrorists, because CNN and Sky says that.



I challenge you to bring a single statement by CNN or Sky where they ever said "Israel attacked" and I challenge you to bring a single statement where CNN or Sky said Palestine retaliated.

If you cant bring such referece, then please convince yourself that you had been fed what media wanted and you had not been fed what you wanted.


Now about your democracy media hoax, here what democracy wants:

http://www.customize.org/polls/412

http://www.customize.org/polls/414


Give a single look to the google top 100 videos and you will see what democracy wants. sex, nudity, fetish and bizzare entertainment to follow their desires. How many of intellectual videos are there in top 100?
Please accept that it is not always right what most people wish for.

Again, no means to offend but to help you come out of the American media bubble.

Bye

 

[Globalpeace]

Hi Fabs,

You keep comparing "Theocracy" in your mind to Islam.

I think we have both established that the governments of Saudi Arabia et al are NOT run under strict Islamic guidelines; therefore you cannot reject a state run by Islamic laws based on states which are not run by Islam.

In order to define a theocracy, you need to refer back to the sources of the doctrine.

Democracy is inherently flawed because the opinion of the majority is implmented no matter how superficious and dangerous it gets.

There were millions of people who marched against the "War in Iraq"...Britain went ahead anyway so there are two arguments:

1) Voice of the majority of the people was ignored
2) Majority of the people wanted to attack Iraq based on shambolic Intelligence

Both arguments go against the spirit of democracy & show that it is a flawed system.

You are aware of the human rights record of Islamic Empire up till 1924 and I reproduce for you the Precedence of Human rights set by Muhammed (Sallaho Alaihe Wassallam)...

Even a casual read will prove that Saudi Arabia is no way close to following it.

In 628 C.E. Prophet Muhammad (s) granted a Charter of Privileges to the monks of St. Catherine Monastery in Mt. Sinai. It consisted of several clauses covering all aspects of human rights including such topics as the protection of Christians, freedom of worship and movement,

freedom to appoint their own judges and to own and maintain their property, exemption from military service, and the right to protection in war.
An English translation of that document is presented here:

This is a message from Muhammad ibn Abdullah, as a covenant to those who adopt Christianity, near and far, we are with them.

Verily I, the servants, the helpers, and my followers defend them, because Christians are my citizens; and by Allah! I hold out against anything that displeases them.

No compulsion is to be on them.

Neither are their judges to be removed from their jobs nor their monks from their monasteries.

No one is to destroy a house of their religion, to damage it, or to carry anything from it to the Muslims' houses.

Should anyone take any of these, he would spoil God's covenant and disobey His Prophet. Verily, they are my allies and have my secure charter against all that they hate.

No one is to force them to travel or to oblige them to fight.

The Muslims are to fight for them.

If a female Christian is married to a Muslim, it is not to take place without her approval. She is not to be prevented from visiting her church to pray.

Their churches are to be respected. They are neither to be prevented from repairing them nor the sacredness of their covenants.

No one of the nation (Muslims) is to disobey the covenant till the Last Day (end of the world).

This charter of privileges has been honoured and faithfully applied by Muslims throughout the centuries in all lands they ruled.

Ignoring the vain arguments of past genocides:

I see the theocracy in Saudi Arabia, Sudan and Iran, concluding that it is best avoided.
A society that functioned 1000 years ago is not necessarily suited for the globalized world in modern times. How is one to control the internet? the media? Dissident views? Immigration of foreigners with different religions(i.e. Hindus, Buddhist, Animalists, Taoists)?

 

[Globalpeace]

Hi Fabs,

There are less then 7% Muslim in UK and even if they were all to vote (united) & if the democratic process is to work correctly it would still NOT be enough to bring about a change.

The reasons are the inherent flaws of the democractic system...

There is no way minorities can win or have their voices heard in a true democratic system fairly.

Minorities can have their voices heard by using foul means e.g the Jews holding Europe at financial ransom & getting their way...I am sure you won;t deny it

Again you can't win in a democracy!

I keep hearing this disgusting argument that the reason for 7/7 was that young Muslims don't have say in things and that they disagree with the foreign policy. When you come to this country and are born in this country you OWE allegiance to this country. And if would ever plan or consider doing what those 4 did, you are a Traitor.(this is the general 'you' I'm using)
Muslims take to the streets in protest and vote in elections all the time, so much for them not having a voice. The ballot not the bullet.

Yes, I say its social exclusion exacerbated by the views of firebrand clerics that causes this. As I've said though if they hate the country so much as to condone 7/7 perhaps they should leave.

 

[Globalpeace]

Hi Fabs,

If Saudi Arabia which is considered to be a "bastion" of Islam is NOT an "Islamic theocracy" then what's the point of talking about Iran, Sudan, Libya & the likes?

You have twisted my argument and turned it into a conspiracy theory, my friend.

Do you deny the simple fact that Media and banking has more then a fair share of Jewish people?

Hence a biased coverage of Palestine & issues related to Muslims (in general)...Compare common media for the masses (BBC, CNN) and then on-line media and you can see the difference on how things are being reported.

I don't think you can deny that the world Wars had "just an inkling" to do with the Jews running the finances of Europe?

Itsy,Bitsy, Tinny, Weeny bit???

The Muslims are not supposed to vote for one single Islamic bloc but vote as anyone else would, by conviction and opinion.
Well you should be happy to know that for 7percent that they are, they get their voice heard quite a lot, due to their presently less than meek nature.


What on earth are you on about? That's another preconception that the followers of the political Islam jave about Jews, they don't hold Europe to financial ransom. Its amazing how many people seem to think that the Jews are one unified kabal plotting to take over the world. I'm just waiting to hear someone cite the forged 'Protocols of Zion' and the blood libel. As soon as they do, I'll gladly bring out an article out of 'Der Stuermer' which I'm sure will fit right in.

 

[fabs]

Hi Fabs,

If Saudi Arabia which is considered to be a "bastion" of Islam is NOT an "Islamic theocracy" then what's the point of talking about Iran, Sudan, Libya & the likes?

You have twisted my argument and turned it into a conspiracy theory, my friend.

Do you deny the simple fact that Media and banking has more then a fair share of Jewish people?

Hence a biased coverage of Palestine & issues related to Muslims (in general)...Compare common media for the masses (BBC, CNN) and then on-line media and you can see the difference on how things are being reported.

I don't think you can deny that the world Wars had "just an inkling" to do with the Jews running the finances of Europe?

Itsy,Bitsy, Tinny, Weeny bit???

Your the first one to bring up a conspiracy theory sir, by bringing up the Jews and their supposedly being behind a lot of things. No I haven't twisted your argument, I've unveiled since that we've come to the subject of the Jews, who are no doubt behind the world's biggest problems according to some people.
The Rothschild family is well know in the banking world as their forefathers worked hard to bring them where they are today. Banking was one of the few activities Jews were allowed to do in Medieval Europe as usury was forbidden to Christians. Still the Jews though making up as you say a 'bigger than their share in the population' of bankers, they still are only a small part compared to the many other Gentile bankers. In the media, I find the BBC as do the Israelis to be rather biased towards the Arabs and Palestinians, so I'm not sure what your talking about. I suppose for some people only bias is balanced. Just for your information though lately I've enjoyed tuning in to Al Jazeerah.
CNN is a very balanced network and shows every side, maybe you should actually watch it before makinga sweeping judgement of it. If you've everwatched Fox News you'll immediately notice the difference in objectivity.
Why is that just because they show Israeli suffering as well they're automatically biased towards the Jews? The on-line media? I'd like some of your examples please.

No, I can steadfastly state that WW2 did not start because of the Jews and anyone that says that obviously already has a biased viewpoint. How did the Jews start WW1? And why would the Jews have wanted to start WW2?
I think someone gives the anti-Zionist propaganda too much credit.
Oh and by the way, I was actually expecting you to say all this. So much for
'correcting' my misconceptions...


And while we're tlaking about world manipulation, who is it that controls all the oil? Who is it that caused the petrol crisis in the 70s?

 

[Globalpeace]

Sorry!

Fabs,

I have been informed that according to correct Islamic understanding it is NOT permissable to criticise Saudia or King Fahd.

As a matter of fact it is NOT permissable to critisice any Muslim ruler (no matter how they come to power & what they do while in power as long as they remain Muslim) and I am in no position to point out their faults in any condition, no matter how blatantly wrong, immoral or unIslamic they maybe.

Therefore I take back what-ever I said; & I am unable to continue this discussion.

 

[virtualeye]

Reality? You mean your reality, one that seems to be cut off from the mainstream which doesn't alone make it right.
Here'sa perfect example of political ISlam as long as the State has an Islamic majority they must be just party. Hence why many thought Hizbullah was just after they attacked Israel first, and why there isn't much condemnation for the murder in the Sudan. OH and why are you giving me internet polls, when im talking about legitimate polls, is that another insult?

You point to the trivial things that a majority may want but you ignore that intellectuals are aprt of a democratic society too, they organize protests, study at the universities and don't have to worry about being persecuted.

>>You point to the trivial things that a majority may want but you ignore that intellectuals are aprt of a democratic society too, they organize protests, study at the universities and don't have to worry about being persecuted.


Sir, When Intellectuals go to vote for president in your country, how many votes are counted for each intellectual? Answer: ONE VOTE. As far as democracy is defined by the votes and the rulers are selected on the basis of that, there will not be anything good to happen but what the people wish as majority or what ruler wishes by making people fool. Democracy loses both way.

When you want heart operation, you call the heart sergeons, when you have eye operation you have to have eye sergeons. When you have to operate the most critical thing, i.e. complete country then what do you use?
If you have even a small sense about your president Bush's stupidities then you should know that he is the bitter fruit of the democracy which is hijacked by the huge votes from the comparatively illiterate and anarchist states such as texas.

Its not the battle about 'mine and yours' and 'yours and mine'. Almost al the rulers in Islamic counties are als the product of some sick processes. Musharraf hijacking Pakistan. Kerzai licking the shoes of American allience etc.


You might have known how east Timor was liberated within days literally. When christains say a single sigh, all the UNO comes along. When Kashmiris, Palestinians, Chechens, Somalians, Phalipine Muslims, Indian Muslims and Bosnian Muslims are raped, massacred and tortured then Jews' hijacked UNO and America is busy in War on terror.

Who would tell you about those massacres?
Today, not biased reporters are being killed in Iraq but the independant one, Why? because they are threat to the hypocrisy of American invasion.


Yet, I invite you to open your heart for fairness and try to have same critical observation which you are having at this talk. Try to not swallow what CNN and Sky say, just try, try to assume and it will help hopefully.

I am sure you might not have seen the video documentaries of the people I had mentioned last time. So I suggests you to take some rest, calm down and utilize your time in watching and reading those people's reviews, instead of striking your head and thining we dont know a thing.



Thanks for the time in reading.

BYE

 

[virtualeye]

Fabs,

I have been informed that according to correct Islamic understanding it is NOT permissable to criticise Saudia or King Fahd.

As a matter of fact it is NOT permissable to critisice any Muslim ruler (no matter how they come to power & what they do while in power as long as they remain Muslim) and I am in no position to point out their faults in any condition, no matter how blatantly wrong, immoral or unIslamic they maybe.

Therefore I take back what-ever I said; & I am unable to continue this discussion.

I think Mr. fabs needs some free time to unlearn,,, not by your reasoning but by the documentaries and videos by his own fellow americans who speak truth. To name, Noam Chomsky, Alex Jones etc. He also needs some documentaries about how media manipulates. This person is totally washed out by the media yet does not ponder why Islam spread even faster after 9/11.

Anyway, May Allah Bless us all and May Allah show fabs the right path.

VE

 

[fabs]

I see someone is looking for a fight.... Read the past posts on this thread to know what I think of Noam Chomsky(who happens to be a Jew donchaknow)
Mention George Galloway and I'll mention a deck of cards, all jokers.

I know how the media manipulates, I USED to watch Fox News and also tried reading aljazeera.net at one point. The Arab press in a sense is all completely biased because their opinions are uniform... anti-Israel, anti-American.

Why is Islam spreading faster after 9/11? More press attention however for all the wrong reasons.

 

[virtualeye]

Why is Islam spreading faster after 9/11? More press attention however for all the wrong reasons.

Press attention in what way? Positve? praises to Islam? The more Islam is associated to terrorism, the more it is spreading? Ever wondered why?


Anyway, as you are taking my comments offensive and Brother GlobalPeace has finished his talk, so I think I should also give up.


Just last one line, There were many many people who used to think like you but then they had to realize the truth and converted to Islam. This is interesting and it happened. So you are not a special case. Its normal for me.


Thanks for your efforts in using so many calories of your fingers in typing.

Bye.

 

[TheHumbleWun]

With all due respect Fabs, have you ever opened a Quran? Please read it like any other text book you've read. I think it will help alot of you questions and give you a better understanding of where Muslims are coming from, that is if you are curious as to why and the psychology behind alot of the answers you are gettting.

Take care my friend

 

[TheHumbleWun]

Sorry, didn't mean to get you angry or annoyed. I did not know.

Could you please tell me specifically where you are finding vague or contradictory statements, hopefully we all can clear it up for you.


"The Creator does not leave his creation unanswered"

 

[hussain.mahammed]

Mr fabs, you gotta read it without any preconceived idea. You should read it with an open heart and mind. Try understanding it , not just by yourself but by somebody who can put things in detail for you insha Allah Taala.

 

[hussain.mahammed]

I did read it with an open mind I assure you, otherwise it would have been left unopened. You know what I'll try what you've said. Unfortunately, here in Luxembourg that opportunity won't arise given that there isn't one mosque in the country. Perhaps when I move off to University...

Hopefully insha Allah you will understand then more better. I will pray to Allah so that He guides you. You seem to have lots of confusion. you dont mind me saying that.

 

[fabs]

We'll see. I said I came here to learn and will continue to do so...

 

[junaid hasan]

gib gas bruder

wenn du willst dann god würde dir bestimmt helfen.wieso nicht?

nur nicht aufhören bis zum letzte atmen.

der satan würde alles tun damit du aufhörst, und dich nicht weiter über islam beschäftigst.

 

[hussain.mahammed]

We'll see. I said I came here to learn and will continue to do so...

Indeed you are most welcome.

A humble request to all
Please post in english as the site itself is in english.
Jazakumullah khair