Hadith Who has Created Your Lord?

[Mohammad Rafoqie]

Who Has Created Your Lord?
By Mohammad Rafique Etesame

Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "Satan comes to one of you and says, 'who created so-and-so?’ Till he says, 'Who has created your Lord?' So, when he inspires such a question, one should seek refuge with Allah and give up such thoughts"( Bokhari).

This hadith reveals that Satan Iblees puts whispers to the Muslim believers about Allah’s existence saying that “who has created God? نعوذباللہ من ذالک Aiming that he can makes the believers doubtful and speechless about Allah-Almighty. So that they may not act upon the teachings of Islam by comfort and satisfaction and caused to be mislead. So in this state of affairs, the believers must seek refuge with Allah i.e. must read: اعوذ باللہ من الشیطٰن الرجیم and stop these whispers touching to their minds.

 

[a_stranger]

It is a foolish question Shaytan put in mind of people .Quran answer it clearly : the creator is different from the poor independent needy creatures .

1. Say (O Muhammad (

)): "He is Allah, (the) One.

2. "Allah-us-Samad (The Self-Sufficient Master, Whom all creatures need, He neither eats nor drinks).

3. "He begets not, nor was He begotten;

4. "And there is none co-equal or comparable unto Him."
Surah 114


255. Allah! La ilaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He), the Ever Living, the One Who sustains and protects all that exists. Neither slumber, nor sleep overtake Him. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on earth. Who is he that can intercede with Him except with His Permission? He knows what happens to them (His creatures) in this world, and what will happen to them in the Hereafter . And they will never compass anything of His Knowledge except that which He wills. His Kursi extends over the heavens and the earth, and He feels no fatigue in guarding and preserving them. And He is the Most High, the Most Great. [This Verse 2:255 is called Ayat-ul-Kursi.]
Surah Al Bakara

62. Allah is the Creator of all things, and He is the Wakil (Trustee, Disposer of affairs, Guardian, etc.) over all things.

63. To Him belong the keys of the heavens and the earth. And those who disbelieve in the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allah, such are they who will be the losers.
Surah Azzumar



Studying Quran give people a clear perfect knoweldge who is our creator and what are his perfect attributes .

 

[Cariad]

It is a foolish question Shaytan put in mind of people .Quran answer it clearly : the creator is different from the poor independent needy creatures .

1. Say (O Muhammad (

)): "He is Allah, (the) One.

2. "Allah-us-Samad (The Self-Sufficient Master, Whom all creatures need, He neither eats nor drinks).

3. "He begets not, nor was He begotten;

4. "And there is none co-equal or comparable unto Him."
Surah 114


255. Allah! La ilaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He), the Ever Living, the One Who sustains and protects all that exists. Neither slumber, nor sleep overtake Him. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on earth. Who is he that can intercede with Him except with His Permission? He knows what happens to them (His creatures) in this world, and what will happen to them in the Hereafter . And they will never compass anything of His Knowledge except that which He wills. His Kursi extends over the heavens and the earth, and He feels no fatigue in guarding and preserving them. And He is the Most High, the Most Great. [This Verse 2:255 is called Ayat-ul-Kursi.]
Surah Al Bakara

62. Allah is the Creator of all things, and He is the Wakil (Trustee, Disposer of affairs, Guardian, etc.) over all things.

63. To Him belong the keys of the heavens and the earth. And those who disbelieve in the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allah, such are they who will be the losers.
Surah Azzumar



Studying Quran give people a clear perfect knoweldge who is our creator and what are his perfect attributes .

Yeshua claimed to have the keys to death and Hades. Hades was name for Hell. Keys to death - by Yeshua we have the life eternal, Keys to Hades -through Him we are safe from entering that place. First and Last? You must think why Yeshua claimed to be first and last and what it means.

Points 2 and 3 I do not understand why a Holy God would need to say such a thing. Who would believe God would need to eat!! Or even worse Beget as in like children!! I don't understand why this is in the Qur'an.
Revelation 1:17-19

17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the first and the last, 18 and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades. 19 Write therefore the things that you have seen, those that are and those that are to take place after this.

 

[a_stranger]

Peace for you dear Cariad:

To purify our hearts let us ponder :

4. Say (O Muhammad

): "Think! All that you invoke besides Allah (the one true God) show me! What have they created of the earth? Or have they a share in (the creation of) the heavens? Bring me a Book (revealed before this), or some trace of knowledge (in support of your claims), if you are truthful!"

5. And who is more astray than one who calls (invokes) besides Allah, such as will not answer him till the Day of Resurrection, and who are (even) unaware of their calls (invocations) to them?

6. And when mankind are gathered (on the Day of Resurrection), they (false deities) will become enemies for them and will deny their worshipping.

Surah 46

With regards

 

[Cariad]

Thank you a_stranger. What do the verses mean? I do not see how they apply to myself.

 

[a_stranger]

I believe that those verses teaches us how to direct our hearts sharply sincerely directly to the one creator of this being .It is a call for all.

 

[Cariad]

yes, I agree. But "false deities" does not apply to christians as Christians only follow the One true God of the Bible, same God as Abraham and all the prophets. "False deities" I believe refer to pagan gods... Maybe in Mecca at the time of Muhammed. he swept them all away I believe and told people of that region to worship one God alone.

 

[a_stranger]

Thank you dear Cariad for your reply:

But the message of Islam is for all people to make things clear , to bind people with their creator through perfect bright faith :

158. Say (O Muhammad

): "O mankind! Verily, I am sent to you all as the Messenger of Allah ( the one true God)- to Whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth. La ilaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He); It is He Who gives life and causes death. So believe in Allah and His Messenger (Muhammad

), the Prophet who can neither read nor write (i.e. Muhammad

) who believes in Allah and His Words [(this Qur'an), the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel) and also Allah's Word: "Be!" - and he was, i.e. 'Iesa (Jesus) son of Maryam (Mary),], and follow him so that you may be guided."

Quran Surah AlAraf.

With respect.

 

[Cariad]

With respect, I do not see the same inference from the verse as yourself. What is clear that was not clear before? The Jews and Christians were already monotheists and worshipped the One true God of Abraham, they knew as YHWH. YHWH has no partners or associates and is ONE. This I understand when I read Bible scripture, and what I do not understand when muslims say the Jews and Christians are astray from their God. Because they don't accept Muhammed as prophet? I don't know.. But maybe God gives people His revelation in different ways. For Jews the Old Testament prophets for christians Yeshua and for muslims Muhammed.

I know Yeshua spoke to me with His words and God gave my heart the spiritual understanding to know this truth. I looked for Yeshua in the Qur'an but really He is not there, and there are none of His teaching either. I know you believe you have Him, but truly you don't. If you did you would not forsake Him.

Peace to you may God guide you and reveal His grace to you.

 

[mezeren]

With respect, I do not see the same inference from the verse as yourself. What is clear that was not clear before? The Jews and Christians were already monotheists and worshipped the One true God of Abraham, they knew as YHWH. YHWH has no partners or associates and is ONE. This I understand when I read Bible scripture, and what I do not understand when muslims say the Jews and Christians are astray from their God. Because they don't accept Muhammed as prophet? I don't know.. But maybe God gives people His revelation in different ways. For Jews the Old Testament prophets for christians Yeshua and for muslims Muhammed.

I know Yeshua spoke to me with His words and God gave my heart the spiritual understanding to know this truth. I looked for Yeshua in the Qur'an but really He is not there, and there are none of His teaching either. I know you believe you have Him, but truly you don't. If you did you would not forsake Him.

Peace to you may God guide you and reveal His grace to you.

Hi,

All religions are monoteistic. They all believe in a God that created everything. The problem with all is that they also believe in lesser gods. They associate partners with God and give some of His attributes to lesser gods whom they think are intercessor between them and Allah. Because, they beleive God, Allah, is so out of their reach, they need lesser gods in order to connect with Allah.

And if you asked them, "Who created the heavens and earth?" they would surely say, " Allah ." Say, "[All] praise is [due] to Allah "; but most of them do not know. (31:25)

And if you asked them, "Who created the heavens and the earth?" they would surely say, " Allah ." Say, "Then have you considered what you invoke besides Allah ? If Allah intended me harm, are they removers of His harm; or if He intended me mercy, are they withholders of His mercy?" Say, "Sufficient for me is Allah ; upon Him [alone] rely the [wise] reliers." (39:38)

That is how Macca pagans' beliefs were. Christianity is no different. Do you beleive that Jesus is son of God? But, Allah says in the Qur'an;

Say, "He is Allah , [who is] One,
Allah , the Eternal Refuge.
He neither begets nor is born,
Nor is there to Him any equivalent." (112:1-4)

That is pure monoteism. And we do not need an intercessor between us and Allah, because Allah says;

And We have already created man and know what his soul whispers to him, and We are closer to him than [his] jugular vein. (50:16)

The religion, the path, the massage which Allah has sent down to humans via His massangers from Adam(a.s.) to Muhammad(a.s.) have been İslam, true monoteism. So, Jesus(a.s.) taught İslam as well. But, their followers distorted the massage. Finally, Allah sent down the Qur'an and promised to preserve it, that is why Qur'an is the only book that has not been altered and will not be till the last day.

About Yeshua speaking to you and all that sipiritual stuff, well, i can tell you that you are not alone to claim such things. All over the world people from different beliefs claim such experiences. They are subjective and unreliable. Allah gave you your brain and wants you to use it to find Him and His true religion. The sipiritual feelings could be from satan. Satan wants you to NOT use your brain and intellect so that he can lead you astray.

I recommend you to read Qur'an and ponder over it. But, while doing it, do not forget that there is a method to understand Qur'an. Do not take a single verse to come to a conclusion. While most verses are clear to understand, for some of them you need to look other relevent verses. Allah explains a verse with another verse and it is Allah Who explains the Qur'an;

Alif, Lam, Ra. [This is] a Book whose verses are perfected and then presented in detail from [one who is] Wise and Acquainted. (11:1)

 

[Cariad]

Hi,

All religions are monoteistic. They all believe in a God that created everything. The problem with all is that they also believe in lesser gods. They associate partners with God and give some of His attributes to lesser gods whom they think are intercessor between them and Allah. Because, they beleive God, Allah, is so out of their reach, they need lesser gods in order to connect with Allah.

I do not wholly agree with what you say. Not all religions are considered monotheistic. The three religions that are are firstly Judaism, secondly Christianity and thirdly Islam. Whereas I do not know what pagan deities were worshipped at the Kabaa before Muhammed swept them away, they may well have had one god they valued more than others, that is not so of other polytheistic religions who believe each god has a different purpose and offer worship to their needs.

And if you asked them, "Who created the heavens and earth?" they would surely say, " Allah ." Say, "[All] praise is [due] to Allah "; but most of them do not know. (31:25)

And if you asked them, "Who created the heavens and the earth?" they would surely say, " Allah ." Say, "Then have you considered what you invoke besides Allah ? If Allah intended me harm, are they removers of His harm; or if He intended me mercy, are they withholders of His mercy?" Say, "Sufficient for me is Allah ; upon Him [alone] rely the [wise] reliers." (39:38)

That is how Macca pagans' beliefs were. Christianity is no different.

So how do you see christians have partners in the same way as polytheistic have partners to God? On second thoughts I don't wish to know your misconceptions, and forgive me my bluntness, but it becomes tiresome reading the same misconceptions muslims regards christian beliefs. The Bible is clear as sparkling crystal that God is ONE.

Do you beleive that Jesus is son of God? But, Allah says in the Qur'an;

Say, "He is Allah , [who is] One,
Allah , the Eternal Refuge.
He neither begets nor is born,
Nor is there to Him any equivalent." (112:1-4)

What you say is blasphemy, as christians do not believe God has a son as mankind have a son. The idea that God begets or is born is preposterous and it makes me wonder why it is even in the Qur'an. It reads like a reaction to a misconception of christian belief. Now, Yeshua called God as Father and God called Yeshua as son, the Bible does not ever show or imply any act of procreation for this to be. Another anomaly in the Qur'an for me... Why does it imply such is the case! If you said Muhammed thought this and taught this it it would somehow acceptable, but you do not. This is claimed to come from almighty God Himself!! How is it possible? Why does God wish seek to correct christians for something they never believed anyway?

That is pure monoteism. And we do not need an intercessor between us and Allah, because Allah says;

And We have already created man and know what his soul whispers to him, and We are closer to him than [his] jugular vein. (50:16)

Pure monotheism? How can that even be explained logically. If God is as one as you imply then you have little chance of ever being close to him. A God sufficient unto itself has no need of anything, no need for creation.

The religion, the path, the massage which Allah has sent down to humans via His massangers from Adam(a.s.) to Muhammad(a.s.) have been İslam, true monoteism. So, Jesus(a.s.) taught İslam as well. But, their followers distorted the massage. Finally, Allah sent down the Qur'an and promised to preserve it, that is why Qur'an is the only book that has not been altered and will not be till the last day.

Sorry, that's nonsense, you are just expressing your opinion. You have no proof that Gods purpose and message through the prophets before Muhammed has ever been distorted. The prophets taught and Yeshua revealed the One God we are to love and worship, we did it then we do it now, how is it distorted? You say God promised to protect the word in the Qur'an? How can you trust a God that chose not to or failed to protect and preserve His previous revelations from his creation? How does that even work? God sends revelations to mankind over a period of three thousand years only to change it all over the lifetime of one man... 22 years? Does that not seem incongruous to you?

About Yeshua speaking to you and all that sipiritual stuff, well, i can tell you that you are not alone to claim such things. All over the world people from different beliefs claim such experiences. They are subjective and unreliable. Allah gave you your brain and wants you to use it to find Him and His true religion. The sipiritual feelings could be from satan. Satan wants you to NOT use your brain and intellect so that he can lead you astray.

You insult me, ok, that's fine. You should not mock what you don't understand. Let's be clear, I am not hearing the voices in my head, Yeshua speaks to me through His teachings in the Gospels, I know they are truth because God grants spiritual discernment for us to see His plan for us. I follow Gods word do you? Your prophet received his revelation from a spirit claiming to be Gabriel do you have proof the spirit was who it said it was? You accept on faith that it was Gabriel, ok fine, yet for me scripture tells be Gabriel was the angel sent to announce the son Yeshua to Mary so we have an angel bringing two different message.. One Son of God two God has no son... This does not raise questions in your mind but it does in mine.

I recommend you to read Qur'an and ponder over it. But, while doing it, do not forget that there is a method to understand Qur'an. Do not take a single verse to come to a conclusion. While most verses are clear to understand, for some of them you need to look other relevent verses. Allah explains a verse with another verse and it is Allah Who explains the Qur'an;

Alif, Lam, Ra. [This is] a Book whose verses are perfected and then presented in detail from [one who is] Wise and Acquainted. (11:1)

You think I have not read and pondered over it already? It is because I put high importance on my eternal destination and know my time is limited I need to search every path that claims to lead to God. I do not find ( in the majority) the verses easy to understand, but I try to find explanations and ask muslim friends for clarification sometimes. It appears to me that islam is like mankind searching for an unreachable God but the Bible shows me a God who actually seeks relationship with its beloved creation... Even though we are sinners and unworthy. You don't see this way because you don't have Yeshua. Go scoff again.. It's ok but God is spirit so forgive me for seeking to be joined with Him spiritually. It brings me the greatest peace in my heart.

Sorry if my reply to your post may seem brusque, I have not time or energy to reread it.

Peace and Gods blessings

 

[mezeren]

"Cariad, post: 647602, member: 108226"]I do not wholly agree with what you say. Not all religions are considered monotheistic. The three religions that are are firstly Judaism, secondly Christianity and thirdly Islam. Whereas I do not know what pagan deities were worshipped at the Kabaa before Muhammed swept them away, they may well have had one god they valued more than others, that is not so of other polytheistic religions who believe each god has a different purpose and offer worship to their needs.

It is like Christians have God, Jesus, Marry or others to pray to. I don't know your belief system. But, if you pray to Jesus or Marry or Saints, than that is what i mean.

So how do you see christians have partners in the same way as polytheistic have partners to God? On second thoughts I don't wish to know your misconceptions, and forgive me my bluntness, but it becomes tiresome reading the same misconceptions muslims regards christian beliefs. The Bible is clear as sparkling crystal that God is ONE.

What Bible? How many of Bibles are there all over the world? Are they the same, word by word or what?

What you say is blasphemy, as christians do not believe God has a son as mankind have a son. The idea that God begets or is born is preposterous and it makes me wonder why it is even in the Qur'an. It reads like a reaction to a misconception of christian belief. Now, Yeshua called God as Father and God called Yeshua as son, the Bible does not ever show or imply any act of procreation for this to be. Another anomaly in the Qur'an for me... Why does it imply such is the case! If you said Muhammed thought this and taught this it it would somehow acceptable, but you do not. This is claimed to come from almighty God Himself!! How is it possible? Why does God wish seek to correct christians for something they never believed anyway?

It means that God has no father or son. God wish seek to correct christians because they had altered His massage to mankind, a massage that contains everything for us to be happy both in this life and hereafter.

Pure monotheism? How can that even be explained logically. If God is as one as you imply then you have little chance of ever being close to him. A God sufficient unto itself has no need of anything, no need for creation.

It is simple, There is one God, Allah and the rest are His creations, simple as that. And you seek help from Him alone. Only He has the power to solve your problems and He is the only one you worship. When you associate partners with Him in any way, then it becomes politeism.

Sorry, that's nonsense, you are just expressing your opinion. You have no proof that Gods purpose and message through the prophets before Muhammed has ever been distorted. The prophets taught and Yeshua revealed the One God we are to love and worship, we did it then we do it now, how is it distorted? You say God promised to protect the word in the Qur'an? How can you trust a God that chose not to or failed to protect and preserve His previous revelations from his creation? How does that even work? God sends revelations to mankind over a period of three thousand years only to change it all over the lifetime of one man... 22 years? Does that not seem incongruous to you?

Off course i am expressing my opinion. What are you doing? The same? So, there is no need to get angry. What i said is all muslims' claim and we have the proof for that. All over the world, The Quran have been preserved word for word for ages up to now. Go whereever you want, have a look at any Qur'an you wish, you will see that they are the same. How about Bible or Torah? And, Allah did not fail to protect His massage. He had not promised to preserve any book except Qur'an. The followers of previous texts had taken the responsibility to preserve their holly books and they had not kept their promises and had failed.

You insult me, ok, that's fine. You should not mock what you don't understand. Let's be clear, I am not hearing the voices in my head, Yeshua speaks to me through His teachings in the Gospels, I know they are truth because God grants spiritual discernment for us to see His plan for us. I follow Gods word do you? Your prophet received his revelation from a spirit claiming to be Gabriel do you have proof the spirit was who it said it was? You accept on faith that it was Gabriel, ok fine, yet for me scripture tells be Gabriel was the angel sent to announce the son Yeshua to Mary so we have an angel bringing two different message.. One Son of God two God has no son... This does not raise questions in your mind but it does in mine.

I did not intend to offend you. If it seemed so, i am sorry. You have to understand that Allah speaks to people in different ways(not directly). Some times it is in your dreams, sometimes a whisper you feel etc. but they could be from satan as well, so not 100% reliable. There is a special way Allah comminicates only with His massangers to reveal his massage thorough angel Gabriel and satan has no influence there. This is how Allah had communicated with Adam, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and finally Muhammad. So, the massage was the same that is Jesus(a.s.) was just a massanger of Allah like the others.

You think I have not read and pondered over it already? It is because I put high importance on my eternal destination and know my time is limited I need to search every path that claims to lead to God.

That is how it should be and i share the same thoughts and respect you for that.

I do not find ( in the majority) the verses easy to understand, but I try to find explanations and ask muslim friends for clarification sometimes. It appears to me that islam is like mankind searching for an unreachable God but the Bible shows me a God who actually seeks relationship with its beloved creation... Even though we are sinners and unworthy. You don't see this way because you don't have Yeshua. Go scoff again.. It's ok but God is spirit so forgive me for seeking to be joined with Him spiritually. It brings me the greatest peace in my heart.

Sorry if my reply to your post may seem brusque, I have not time or energy to reread it.

Peace and Gods blessings

No unreachable God in islam, exactly the opposite. And We have already created man and know what his soul whispers to him, and We are closer to him than [his] jugular vein. (50:16) He is there whenever we need Him, answers our prayers and we need no one to communicate with Him.

I do not mind your attitude, did not take it serious. i had to go now.
Peace and Gods blessings to you as well.

 

[cabdixakim]

I do not wholly agree with what you say. Not all religions are considered monotheistic. The three religions that are are firstly Judaism, secondly Christianity and thirdly Islam. Whereas I do not know what pagan deities were worshipped at the Kabaa beave had one god they valued more than others, that is not so of other polytheistic religions who believe each god has a different purpose and offer worship to their needs.

So how do you see christians have partners in the same way as polytheistic have partners to God? On you d thoughts I don't wish to know your misconceptions, and forgive me my bluntness, but it becomes tiresome reading the same misconceptions muslims regards christian beliefs. The Bible is clear as sparkling crystal that God is ONE.

What you say is blasphemy, as christians do not believe God has a son as mankind have a son. The idea that God begets or is born is preposterous and it makes me wonder why it is even in the Qur'an. It reads like a reaction to a misconception of christian belief. Now, Yeshua called God as Father and God called Yeshua as son, the Bible does not ever show or imply any act of procreation for this to be. Another anomaly in the Qur'an for me... Why does it imply such is the case! If you said Muhammed thought this and taught this it it would somehow acceptable, but you do not. This is claimed to come from almighty God Himself!! How is it possible? Why does God wish seek to correct christians for something they never believed anyway?

Pure monotheism? How can that even be explained logically. If God is as one as you imply then you have little chance of ever being close to him. A God sufficient unto itself has no need of anything, no need for creation.


Sorry, that's nonsense, you are just expressing your opinion. You have no proof that Gods purpose and message through the prophets before Muhammed has ever been distorted. The prophets taught and Yeshua revealed the One God we are to love and worship, we did it then we do it now, how is it distorted? You say God promised to protect the word in the Qur'an? How can you trust a God that chose not to or failed to protect and preserve His previous revelations from his creation? How does that even work? God sends revelations to mankind over a period of three thousand years only to change it all over the lifetime of one man... 22 years? Does that not seem incongruous to you?

You insult me, ok, that's fine. You should not mock what you don't understand. Let's be clear, I am not hearing the voices in my head, Yeshua speaks to me through His teachings in the Gospels, I know they are truth because God grants spiritual discernment for us to see His plan for us. I follow Gods word do you? Your prophet received his revelation from a spirit claiming to be Gabriel do you have proof the spirit was who it said it was? You accept on faith that it was Gabriel, ok fine, yet for me scripture tells be Gabriel was the angel sent to announce the son Yeshua to Mary so we have an angel bringing two different message.. One Son of God two God has no son... This does not raise questions in your mind but it does in mine.

You think I have not read and pondered over it already? It is because I put high importance on my eternal destination and know my time is limited I need to search every path that claims to lead to God. I do not find ( in the majority) the verses easy to understand, but I try to find explanations and ask muslim friends for clarification sometimes. It appears to me that islam is like mankind searching for an unreachable God but the Bible shows me a God who actually seeks relationship with its beloved creation... Even though we are sinners and unworthy. You don't see this way because you don't have Yeshua. Go scoff again.. It's ok but God is spirit so forgive me for seeking to be joined with Him spiritually. It brings me the greatest peace in my heart.

Sorry if my reply to your post may seem brusque, I have not time or energy to reread it.

Peace and Gods blessings

Greetings @Cariad

seems like I'm waging a war against you on all fronts but I feel obliged to reply to one of your posts again while trying to be fully kind...

you read the Qur'an and ponder over it,that's good and all praise is due to Allah but you know you'll never understand it if your intentions were to nullify the Qur'an using itself...

Also, very honestly, your approach in religious discussions is not constructive... yours is "my way is right and yours is wrong" which is the essence of any debate really and everyone's approach but yours is so different that you only worry about negating what others have to say... for instance, you hardly discuss the ultimate perspective of christianity on an issue being discussed...

I can't understand why you cannot understand "He does not beget,Neither is He begotten" found in the Qur'an when you clearly state " Yeshua called God as father and God called Yeshua as son..." please! Let's understand this one thing from what you wrote...

Yeshua "called" →[God]; is Yeshua not different to God? So Yeshua is not God? but you also said "Yeshua is the first and last" and that he holds the keys to heaven and hades... so based on that Yeshua is God!? ... you also stated firmly that God is one and He has no sons,partners... Either there are TWO Gods in the bible or there are more than TWO Gods in the bible,so which is which?This is what you read in the bible? does it look clear? Even explainable?

and on the other side is the Qur'an which says God is One,begets not ,Neither is He begotten and There is nothing like unto Him... is this confusing?

would you please sum up YHWA,Yeshua,the word,holy spirit for me and convince any reader of the straightfowardness in the bible that there is one God?
..

 

[Cariad]

It is like Christians have God, Jesus, Marry or others to pray to. I don't know your belief system. But, if you pray to Jesus or Marry or Saints, than that is what i mean.

No I do not pray to Mary or Saints or whatever because they have no power to intercede for me with God. I pray to God, sometimes I ask in Yeshuas name, because Yeshua said ..

John 14:13-14
13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

What Bible? How many of Bibles are there all over the world? Are they the same, word by word or what?

There are billions of Bibles over the world. The many translation into many languages may not have the same words but the message is consistent in all of them. I have a bible in English translation and also a Bible in my mother tongue, not always is it possible to have the exact same word in English as my mother tongue but comparing the same verse from both translations the meaning is clear and the same.

It means that God has no father or son. God wish seek to correct christians because they had altered His massage to mankind, a massage that contains everything for us to be happy both in this life and hereafter.

Yes, but we already do know that! No message was altered. Bible scripture is same message now as it did centuries before Islam came so I don't see your point.

It is simple, There is one God, Allah and the rest are His creations, simple as that. And you seek help from Him alone. Only He has the power to solve your problems and He is the only one you worship. When you associate partners with Him in any way, then it becomes politeism.

Yes, we know there is one God, although I know that God of Abraham to be YHWH, but you call in arabic Allah, so small difference if you say Allah is same God as God of Abraham then it's all good.

Off course i am expressing my opinion. What are you doing? The same? So, there is no need to get angry. What i said is all muslims' claim and we have the proof for that. All over the world, The Quran have been preserved word for word for ages up to now. Go whereever you want, have a look at any Qur'an you wish, you will see that they are the same. How about Bible or Torah? And, Allah did not fail to protect His massage. He had not promised to preserve any book except Qur'an. The followers of previous texts had taken the responsibility to preserve their holly books and they had not kept their promises and had failed.

I'm not angry.. You say all Quran's are the same, you mean translations? Or what..? What is the difference you see in the two translations below? For me I see a big difference which changes the meaning somewhat.

God of the Bible said His message would last for eternity, for me I take that as a promise if His message will last for eternity then it is protected from corruption from God Himself. It is not logical for God to send 3000 years of progressive revelation to His creation whom He knows their weaknesses and not protect His message.

5:46 Then in the footsteps of those Prophets, We sent Isa (Jesus) the son of Maryam (Mary) confirming whatever remained intact from the Taurat in his time, and gave him the Injeel (Gospel) wherein was guidance and light, corroborating what was revealed in the Taurat; a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah. (Malik)

5:46 And We caused Jesus, son of Mary, to follow in their footsteps, confirming that which was (revealed) before him, and We bestowed on him the Gospel wherein is guidance and a light, confirming that which was (revealed) before it in the Torah a guidance and an admonition unto those who ward off (evil). (Pickthall)

I did not intend to offend you. If it seemed so, i am sorry. You have to understand that Allah speaks to people in different ways(not directly). Some times it is in your dreams, sometimes a whisper you feel etc. but they could be from satan as well, so not 100% reliable. There is a special way Allah comminicates only with His massangers to reveal his massage thorough angel Gabriel and satan has no influence there. This is how Allah had communicated with Adam, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and finally Muhammad. So, the massage was the same that is Jesus(a.s.) was just a massanger of Allah like the others.

It's of no consequence sometimes I am over sensitive, good days bad days.. None of the Bible prophets received their revelations through Angel Gabriel, Only Prophet of Islam. They received revelation directly from God in various ways. Abraham and Moses spoke with God. You don't believe this it's ok. Also we see Yeshua as the message, He is the message the prophets spoke of. The message does not write itself others write of it... You understand my meaning.

That is how it should be and i share the same thoughts and respect you for that.

thank you.

No unreachable God in islam, exactly the opposite. And We have already created man and know what his soul whispers to him, and We are closer to him than [his] jugular vein. (50:16) He is there whenever we need Him, answers our prayers and we need no one to communicate with Him.

Those are words. How has Allah demonstrated His love for you?

I do not mind your attitude, did not take it serious. i had to go now.
Peace and Gods blessings to you as well.

I apologise for my brusque tone.

May the God we share bless you.

 

[Cariad]

Greetings @Cariad

seems like I'm waging a war against you on all fronts but I feel obliged to reply to one of your posts again while trying to be fully kind...

you read the Qur'an and ponder over it,that's good and all praise is due to Allah but you know you'll never understand it if your intentions were to nullify the Qur'an using itself...

Also, very honestly, your approach in religious discussions is not constructive... yours is "my way is right and yours is wrong" which is the essence of any debate really and everyone's approach but yours is so different that you only worry about negating what others have to say... for instance, you hardly discuss the ultimate perspective of christianity on an issue being discussed...

I can't understand why you cannot understand "He does not beget,Neither is He begotten" found in the Qur'an when you clearly state " Yeshua called God as father and God called Yeshua as son..." please! Let's understand this one thing from what you wrote...

Yeshua "called" →[God]; is Yeshua not different to God? So Yeshua is not God? but you also said "Yeshua is the first and last" and that he holds the keys to heaven and hades... so based on that Yeshua is God!? ... you also stated firmly that God is one and He has no sons,partners... Either there are TWO Gods in the bible or there are more than TWO Gods in the bible,so which is which?This is what you read in the bible? does it look clear? Even explainable?

and on the other side is the Qur'an which says God is One,begets not ,Neither is He begotten and There is nothing like unto Him... is this confusing?

would you please sum up YHWA,Yeshua,the word,holy spirit for me and convince any reader of the straightfowardness in the bible that there is one God?
..

No no.. I do not say my way is the only right way or that yours is wrong. If you have that impression then I am at fault. I don't care if you think bad things of christians or christianity or even think your way is only way. I only want truth, truth for me. But really, I cannot just believe in Islam just because some muslims believe and say "this is truth.. You should believe" I have to find this for myself. You understand this ?

Because God DOES NOT BEGET.. The Bible does not say God begets. The word is monogenes. Unique or one of a kind, like Isaac .. mongenes was also used, but we know it is not "only begotten" like KJV translated it, because Abraham already had a son Ishmael, it is used for Isaac as he also was unique of his kind. The Qur'an does not make this distinction and it implies in terms of procreation. Which for a christian is blasphemy.. Really really bad.

You think a person can know God? You think God can be described when no one has ever known God first hand? Why should I have to convince you of something you do not wish to know or understand. For me it's a simple thing, God is One, God is Spirit, God creates by His word. ONE GOD, the sum of Spirit and Word. This is how God reveals Himself to mankind in the Bible.

There is no need for the waging of wars.

 

[a_stranger]

Peace Dear Cariad:

136. Say (O Muslims), "We believe in God(Allah) and that which has been sent down to us and that which has been sent down to Ibrahim (Abraham), Isma'il (Ishmael), Ishaque (Isaac), Ya'qub (Jacob), and to Al-Asbat [the twelve sons of Ya'qub (Jacob)], and that which has been given to Musa (Moses) and 'Iesa (Jesus), and that which has been given to the Prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we have submitted (in Islam)."
Quran Chap. 2

 

[mezeren]

There are billions of Bibles over the world. The many translation into many languages may not have the same words but the message is consistent in all of them. I have a bible in English translation and also a Bible in my mother tongue, not always is it possible to have the exact same word in English as my mother tongue but comparing the same verse from both translations the meaning is clear and the same.

I am not talking about translations but the original massage. Qur'an was revealed in Arabic and it has been preserved word by word. What language was the original Bible? Was it the language that Jesus had spoken? Do you have such a text today, for example like Qur'an?

Those are words. How has Allah demonstrated His love for you?

First of all, Allah created me as a human and that is the most important demonstration of His love for me.

We have certainly created man in the best of stature(95:4)

He created the universe and subordinated it to us humans.

It is Allah who created the heavens and the earth and sent down rain from the sky and produced thereby some fruits as provision for you and subjected for you the ships to sail through the sea by His command and subjected for you the rivers.(14:32)

And He has subjected for you the night and day and the sun and moon, and the stars are subjected by His command. Indeed in that are signs for a people who reason.(16:12)

He never let us alone, always showed the right path for the salvation through His massangers.

Those are they to whom We gave the Book, and wisdom, and prophethood. If these reject them, We have entrusted them to others who do not reject them.

Those are they whom God has guided, so follow their guidance. Say, "I ask of you no compensation for it; it is just a reminder for all mankind." (6:89-90)

He is the most merciful. Actually, all chapters of the Qur'an, except one, starts with "In the name of God, the Gracious, the Merciful". He forgives our sins no matter how big they are, as long as we repent and ask for forgivness. We do not need an intercessor for it.

Say, "O My servants who have transgressed against themselves: do not despair of God's mercy, for God forgives all sins. He is indeed the Forgiver, the Clement."(39:53)

He promised us the eternal happines if we follow His path.

Except for those who repent, and believe, and act righteously. These will enter Paradise, and will not be wronged in the least.
The Gardens of Eden, promised by the Most Merciful to His servants in the Unseen. His promise will certainly come true.(19:60-61)

So, when you look at the universe, everything around you, every single creature, all of His signs, yourself and the Qur'an, you will see the love and greatness of Allah.

I apologise for my brusque tone.

May the God we share bless you.

Same to you.

P.S: Previously, you said regarding Qur'an "I do not find ( in the majority) the verses easy to understand". I wonder which part you did not understand. Because Qur'an is really easy and clear to understand by its nature. So, i am surprised there.

 

[Cariad]

Mezeren, I have compared Qur'an and Bible for some years and have muslim friends we often talk of things we agree on and things we see differently. But, talk is cheap and it's for each of us to find God in our own way, I believe God alone has the power to change our hearts. So there is no winning of hearts and minds to Yeshua for me here.. understand that plz.

For me I see Islam is following of religion and that is seen as the way to God. I may be considered odd as christian but for me God is bigger than religion. I do not believe God wants us to be slaves to any one religion but only to worship Him in love and sincerity. That is what Yeshua showed. He said He was the Way, the Truth and the Life and if we are to come to God we should follow Him, He never said be a christian, and when He charged Peter with building His church on earth He was not talking of buildings. He is for all the world... And He left those behind to show He was the Way. You see another way, and that's a free choice. God always gives the choice of free will.

What I don't understand in Qur'an is there is little depth, without knowing the previous scriptures I struggle to see the messages of the prophets because you only have a little bit, and so few of them. Sometimes the lessons Islam takes from the prophets seem simplified and superficial. Maybe it is easier to see the Qur'an not having any knowledge of the previous scriptures at all, then questions would not arise. But for me it's not option because I already have Bible in my head

Usually muslims will say, things about Bible corruption, contradictions and being unreliable etc., to persuade the christian to Islam. That will never work as the two books are so very different it is not possible to measure by the same criteria. So, the core thing you would have to destroy is our faith in Yeshua, and persuade the christian that Isa is Yeshua. That is a very hard thing to do because any christian who has Yeshua it is hard to forsake Him.

But the biggest thing for me is the difference in the concept of sin, and you touch on it here.

He is the most merciful. Actually, all chapters of the Qur'an, except one, starts with "In the name of God, the Gracious, the Merciful". He forgives our sins no matter how big they are, as long as we repent and ask for forgivness. We do not need an intercessor for it.

I see it dangerous teaching that God will just simply forgive any sin. Like Sin is of little importance to God. Like, if God just forgives sin if we just repent and not do it again, in my eye that diminishes the Holiness of God. I may have it wrong but Islam seems more concerned with sin being forgiven in this world, I mean by that "try not to sin again" for sure that is all good advice and something that everyone who loves God with all their heart and soul should always do.
But what of the effect of sin on our eternity? Which is of greatest importance than this life. I see no solution in Islam. We know from scripture how seriously God sees Sin, God says He abhors sin, (although loves the sinner) God cannot be in the presence of Sin and it the one thing that separates mankind from God. Yet you believe God will simply forgive all sins against Him just by saying sorry. Doing so means God will no longer be consistent to His divine nature and that's one thing that will not happen. I don't see Yeshua as some intercessor on my behalf, that's not His role, I see Him as the bridge over the chasm of Sin that separates mankind from a Holy God, if I am to stand repentant before God Yeshua is the Way.

Forme it is logical, and consistent with the Bible prophets who were themselves types and shadows of the Yeshua the Christ.

Peace.

That's my way... I am not saying it is the only way, but the one that makes sense to me

 

[mezeren]

"Cariad, post: 647798, member: 108226"]Mezeren, I have compared Qur'an and Bible for some years and have muslim friends we often talk of things we agree on and things we see differently. But, talk is cheap and it's for each of us to find God in our own way, I believe God alone has the power to change our hearts. So there is no winning of hearts and minds to Yeshua for me here.. understand that plz.

Sure, everybody is free to choose what to believe.

For me I see Islam is following of religion and that is seen as the way to God. I may be considered odd as christian but for me God is bigger than religion. I do not believe God wants us to be slaves to any one religion but only to worship Him in love and sincerity. That is what Yeshua showed. He said He was the Way, the Truth and the Life and if we are to come to God we should follow Him, He never said be a christian, and when He charged Peter with building His church on earth He was not talking of buildings. He is for all the world... And He left those behind to show He was the Way. You see another way, and that's a free choice. God always gives the choice of free will.

What is a religion anyway? Allah has created us. He wants us to know him and follow his right path. The path that brings us happiness in this world and hereafter. It is for our benefit that we obey his orders. He has given us the formula. It is up to people to choose and that is free will. Without free will, there will be no test, no punishment and no reward.

What I don't understand in Qur'an is there is little depth, without knowing the previous scriptures I struggle to see the messages of the prophets because you only have a little bit, and so few of them. Sometimes the lessons Islam takes from the prophets seem simplified and superficial. Maybe it is easier to see the Qur'an not having any knowledge of the previous scriptures at all, then questions would not arise. But for me it's not option because I already have Bible in my head

I am speechles. When you say Qur'an has little depth i wonder if you really bother to understand it. Let me get it straight that the massage belongs to Allah not to His massangers. Massangers were just, well, massangers. Their duty was to convey God's massage and practice it in their lives to be perfect examples. Islam does not take lessons from their stories but muslims does. Their massage as a whole is "Islam" which is the path for us to follow. If you are talking about the story of past Massangers of Allah you will find plenty of them in the Qur'an. I can not believe that you are not aware of the story of Prophets. How about Chapter Al-i Imran, Marry, Abraham, Hud, Joseph ? The stories of Jesus, Moses and others are all over the Qur'an.

Usually muslims will say, things about Bible corruption, contradictions and being unreliable etc., to persuade the christian to Islam. That will never work as the two books are so very different it is not possible to measure by the same criteria. So, the core thing you would have to destroy is our faith in Yeshua, and persuade the christian that Isa is Yeshua. That is a very hard thing to do because any christian who has Yeshua it is hard to forsake Him.

It is up to the person to decide whether he/she will change his/her perception. But, you should understand Qur'an and its massage better before that.

But the biggest thing for me is the difference in the concept of sin, and you touch on it here.

I see it dangerous teaching that God will just simply forgive any sin. Like Sin is of little importance to God. Like, if God just forgives sin if we just repent and not do it again, in my eye that diminishes the Holiness of God. I may have it wrong but Islam seems more concerned with sin being forgiven in this world, I mean by that "try not to sin again" for sure that is all good advice and something that everyone who loves God with all their heart and soul should always do.

I see lots of misunderstanding here. Allah created us and knows us the best. We are prone to sin. Are you not? Adam was the first to disobey Allah's orders and the first sinner of humans. He realised that what he did was wrong and repented and ask for forgiveness. What would have your God done? Dismiss him? Allah knew his hearth and his sincerity, so, He forgave him. Everytime you make a mistake, you repent and try to change your behaviour and try to be a better person. If Allah wouldn't be merciful and accapt our repentence, we all would get worse and worse because of thinking we will not be forgiven. We would loose hope and that is what satan wants us to do.

But what of the effect of sin on our eternity? Which is of greatest importance than this life. I see no solution in Islam. We know from scripture how seriously God sees Sin, God says He abhors sin, (although loves the sinner) God cannot be in the presence of Sin and it the one thing that separates mankind from God. Yet you believe God will simply forgive all sins against Him just by saying sorry. Doing so means God will no longer be consistent to His divine nature and that's one thing that will not happen. I don't see Yeshua as some intercessor on my behalf, that's not His role, I see Him as the bridge over the chasm of Sin that separates mankind from a Holy God, if I am to stand repentant before God Yeshua is the Way.

Forme it is logical, and consistent with the Bible prophets who were themselves types and shadows of the Yeshua the Christ.

Your not seeing the solution does not mean that it is not there. Offcourse, God does not wants us to sin in any way, but he knows our nature. Surely, He will not treat us all the same. The less sin you commit the more reward you get. That is justice. I can see that you are giving some of God's attributions to Yeshua. The thought of Him "being the bridge over the chasm of Sin" just means that. God does not need such a bridge. That is believing in a distant God who needs some intercessors, be it Jeshua or whomever. At the and of the day, you believe that your sins will be forgiven but Yushua will be the means for that. Phew! I think you need to think about that.

Peace.

That's my way... I am not saying it is the only way, but the one that makes sense to me

Peace to you as well...

 

[Cariad]

Sure, everybody is free to choose what to believe.



What is a religion anyway? Allah has created us. He wants us to know him and follow his right path. The path that brings us happiness in this world and hereafter. It is for our benefit that we obey his orders. He has given us the formula. It is up to people to choose and that is free will. Without free will, there will be no test, no punishment and no reward.

What's the test?

I am speechles. When you say Qur'an has little depth i wonder if you really bother to understand it. Let me get it straight that the massage belongs to Allah not to His massangers. Massangers were just, well, massangers. Their duty was to convey God's massage and practice it in their lives to be perfect examples. Islam does not take lessons from their stories but muslims does. Their massage as a whole is "Islam" which is the path for us to follow. If you are talking about the story of past Massangers of Allah you will find plenty of them in the Qur'an. I can not believe that you are not aware of the story of Prophets. How about Chapter Al-i Imran, Marry, Abraham, Hud, Joseph ? The stories of Jesus, Moses and others are all over the Qur'an.

I say from my point of view, sorry if it's is offensive to you. But I do not see how the Qur'an is word of God verbatim as you believe it to be. It would be easier for me to accept it as an inspired word of God like Bible is but there are too many difficulties to be verbatim. I accept this is how muslims understand it. Like I find it offensive to hear words implying christians believe God has a son with Mary. Offensive and also blasphemous, because it is not consistent to how God and the Son are revealed in the Bible. If muslims get this idea in their heads from reading the Qur'an then I how would such misconception be the hand of God.

I meant muslims take lessons.. Not Islam, sorry did I say Islam. That makes no sense of course lesson learnt are for followers.. Muslims and Christians etc. Yes, I am aware of the stories of the prophets in the Qur'an, the accounts of the prophets in the Qur'an seem incomplete. The changes made from the Bible accounts may appear to be small but sometimes have bigger consequences. Why has Mary a sura named for her? That puzzled me. And some of the very few stories of Yeshua were first found in the Gnostics which were not written for hundreds of years after Yeshua.. And have no provenance. Then why are they in Qur'an? It may seem I am being negative in criticism, sorry if that is so. But really I am not a person to accept something that causes me doubt, not when it effects my eternal destination. I'm sure you would not just accept something if you had doubts.

It is up to the person to decide whether he/she will change his/her perception. But, you should understand Qur'an and its massage better before that.

Yes, I see that. If God sends a message that He means you to follow would He make it so difficult for one to understand? Maybe God sends His message differently to different peoples according to their understanding.

I see lots of misunderstanding here. Allah created us and knows us the best. We are prone to sin. Are you not? Adam was the first to disobey Allah's orders and the first sinner of humans. He realised that what he did was wrong and repented and ask for forgiveness. What would have your God done? Dismiss him? Allah knew his hearth and his sincerity, so, He forgave him. Everytime you make a mistake, you repent and try to change your behaviour and try to be a better person. If Allah wouldn't be merciful and accapt our repentence, we all would get worse and worse because of thinking we will not be forgiven. We would loose hope and that is what satan wants us to do.

what do you not understand from what I said? Prone to sin? No.. We are sinners full stop. There is no choice as we inherited a sin nature from Adam our father of humanity. Yes, Adam was the first sinner and we all suffer the consequences of that first sin. You say what would I have my God do? Dismiss him? Yes.. Exactly that, and that is what the Bible teaches God did. If God is Holy then it is the only thing that makes sense. The Bible teaches God does not view sin lightly, yes God is merciful and He loves us so much He does not want not one of His created souls to go to Hell for eternity, in fact God does not put us into Hell we put ourselves into that place. Only God can prevent us going there.

So why does God expel Adam from the garden after his fall into sin? Not just for a short while to teach him the error of his ways but for eternity. Even placing Cherubim with flaming swords to prevent any return by Adam. This was the penalty Adam paid for his sin of disobedience. All sin is disobeying God. The glory and holiness of God demands a penalty for sin against Him, if He does not then God justice is compromised. This is the Bible accounts explains Gods punishment.. Notice the Serpent (Satan) is the only one who punishment is eternal, because of cause God knows who is the main antagonist and why. Adam and Eve were given the chance to redeem themselves and mankind. As sin came into the world through the first Adam its solution comes through the last Adam (Yeshua) that's why Yeshua had to be born of woman... But not of man.

Genesis
14 So the Lord God spoke to the serpent. He said, “Because you have done this,

“You are set apart from all livestock
and all wild animals.
I am putting a curse on you.
You will crawl on your belly.
You will eat dust
all the days of your life.
15 I will make you and the woman hate each other.
Your children and her children will be enemies.
Her son will crush your head.
And you will bite his heel.”

16 The Lord God said to the woman,

“I will increase your pain when you give birth.
You will be in great pain when you have children.
You will long for your husband.
And he will rule over you.”

17 The Lord God said to Adam, “You listened to your wife’s suggestion. You ate fruit from the tree I warned you about. I said, ‘You must not eat its fruit.’

“So I am putting a curse on the ground because of what you did.
All the days of your life you will have to work hard.
It will be painful for you to get food from the ground. 18 You will eat plants from the field,
even though the ground produces thorns and prickly weeds.
19 You will have to work hard and sweat a lot
to produce the food you eat.
You were made out of the ground.
You will return to it when you die.
You are dust,
and you will return to dust.”

That's why it does not seem logical to me for God just to forgive all sin, where is Gods divine justice there? I don't see the scenario of our attitude towards sin becoming worse and worse if we thought God would not be merciful and forgive us. Maybe that is how you see things. How can a person live like that though? It is despair and yes it would lead to loss of hope. We have hope in the Christ, so it's different for christians I guess. We are under grace not law. Yeshua fulfilled the law. Make no mistake there has to be repentance, without it we are not worthy of Gids Grace and for that we would rightly deserve a Christless eternity devoid of Gods love.

Your not seeing the solution does not mean that it is not there. Offcourse, God does not wants us to sin in any way, but he knows our nature. Surely, He will not treat us all the same. The less sin you commit the more reward you get. That is justice. I can see that you are giving some of God's attributions to Yeshua. The thought of Him "being the bridge over the chasm of Sin" just means that. God does not need such a bridge. That is believing in a distant God who needs some intercessors, be it Jeshua or whomever. At the and of the day, you believe that your sins will be forgiven but Yushua will be the means for that. Phew! I think you need to think about that.

We don't hope for rewards for avoiding sin. If we follow Yeshuas commandments then we understand that striving to avoid sin is pleasing to God. We try to live our life to the glory of God. At times we may fail, God knows that... That's why He sent Yeshua as Saviour. I know there is nothing I can do of my person to effect my salvation, I rely totally on Gods grace. I am happy in this as I know God is just, as He is merciful but most of all God is love. That is the most important thing the other is God wants relationship with us.

Peace to you as well...

Peace that you always know Gods love.

Btw, sorry for the long post, and also if it makes no sense to you. sometimes something is easy to know in your heart but not so easy to explain to others. Like Islam is clear to you because it's what you know.