Hadith Who has Created Your Lord?

mezeren

Junior Member
Cariad, post: 647806, member: 108226"]
What's the test?

Blessed is He in whose hand is the sovereignty, and Who has power over everything.
He who created death and life-to test you-as to which of you is better in conduct. He is the Almighty, the Forgiving (67:1-2)



Yes, I am aware of the stories of the prophets in the Qur'an, the accounts of the prophets in the Qur'an seem incomplete. The changes made from the Bible accounts may appear to be small but sometimes have bigger consequences.

Qur'an has been revealed to correct the corruption of previously altered texts. So, stories are mainly the same, changes were made where necessary.

Why has Mary a sura named for her?That puzzled me.

Because, the chapter tells us the real story of Marry and how christians distorted the massage.

And some of the very few stories of Yeshua were first found in the Gnostics which were not written for hundreds of years after Yeshua.. And have no provenance. Then why are they in Qur'an?

Again, it is to tell the real story of Jesus. Why in the Qur'an? Well, i assumed you understand that all the Massangers of Allah from Adam to Muhammad we accept and respect. Allah tells us their stories so that we take lessons and do not repeat their followers mistakes. If the stories weren't relevant to us, it would't be in the Qur'an. Simple as that.


Yes, I see that. If God sends a message that He means you to follow would He make it so difficult for one to understand? Maybe God sends His message differently to different peoples according to their understanding.

Again, you are implying that it is difficult to understand Qur'an and i do not agree. And, God's massage never changes from people to people or according to ages. I hope you understand, from islamic perspective, the massage has been the same from begening to end which is islam.

There is no choice as we inherited a sin nature from Adam our father of humanity. Yes, Adam was the first sinner and we all suffer the consequences of that first sin.

Again, islam and your faith conflicts here. We do not inherited the sin. We are not responsible for what Adam did so there is no suffering here. It is the way Allah created us that we are prone to both sins and good deeds. Actually, He created us in a way that we are more prone to follow His path. Deep inside, we feel better when we do good, and we feel bad when we sin. By the way, Adam had repented and had been forgiven by Allah for his sin.

Then Adam received from his Lord [some] words, and He accepted his repentance. Indeed, it is He who is the Accepting of repentance, the Merciful.(2:37)

You say what would I have my God do? Dismiss him? Yes.. Exactly that, and that is what the Bible teaches God did.

Then, you believe a God that lacks "love". But, wait, your "love" comes from Yeshua, right.



Adam and Eve were given the chance to redeem themselves and mankind. As sin came into the world through the first Adam its solution comes through the last Adam (Yeshua) that's why Yeshua had to be born of woman... But not of man.

Sorry, that makes no sense to me.

17 The Lord God said to Adam, “You listened to your wife’s suggestion. You ate fruit from the tree I warned you about. I said, ‘You must not eat its fruit.’

According to islam, Adam and his wife are equaly responsible for the sin.


That's why it does not seem logical to me for God just to forgive all sin, where is Gods divine justice there?

Let me be clear here. When we say Allah forgives all sins, it requires certain conditions. First, you have to accept your sin and feel really sorry for it and be determined not to do it again and repent Allah. Even then, as a muslim, you can't be sure that you are forgiven. That is why, muslims should be in a state of between "hope" and "fear". We fear because we are sinners, we hope that Allah is the merciful. And that should force a muslim to do better constantly.


We have hope in the Christ, so it's different for christians I guess. We are under grace not law. Yeshua fulfilled the law. Make no mistake there has to be repentance, without it we are not worthy of Gids Grace and for that we would rightly deserve a Christless eternity devoid of Gods love.

That is where you are so wrong, i think. You attribute a deficiency to God and you try to fulfill it with Yeshua, or Christ. That is associating partners with god, giving His attributions to someone else. You need to think about it.



We don't hope for rewards for avoiding sin. If we follow Yeshuas commandments then we understand that striving to avoid sin is pleasing to God.

Again, that is associating partners with the Creator. The commandments belong to the Creator. And, pleasing God means doing what He wants us to do and avoiding things that He forbid. That pleases Him and is best for our happiness.

We try to live our life to the glory of God. At times we may fail, God knows that... That's why He sent Yeshua as Saviour.

He send Jesus and All His massangers to show you the truth, his right path.

I know there is nothing I can do of my person to effect my salvation, I rely totally on Gods grace.

Sooo wrong, you are the one who will do good or bad and you will be judged according to your deeds. You are contradicting to yourself here. Once you say "it does not seem logical to me for God just to forgive all sin" and later you say "I rely totally on Gods grace".


I am happy in this as I know God is just, as He is merciful but most of all God is love. That is the most important thing the other is God wants relationship with us. :)

Mercy comes from love. God is not "love" but God loves us all.

I will repeat again that You need to think about your perception of the Creator. He does not need anyone or anything as a bridge between Him and his creation. Our "saviour" is our God. I hope you think about it.

Peace that you always know Gods love.

Fortunataly, i know Allah's love to his creation. Peace to you as well.
 

Cariad

Junior Member
Blessed is He in whose hand is the sovereignty, and Who has power over everything.
He who created death and life-to test you-as to which of you is better in conduct. He is the Almighty, the Forgiving (67:1-2)

God is omniscient ya..? So God knows who will pass or fail such tests.. Is there a point?


Qur'an has been revealed to correct the corruption of previously altered texts. So, stories are mainly the same, changes were made where necessary.

there is no corruption. The message is the same throughout the Bible scriptures. Bible prophets brought the same message. Either through revelation or by Types or shadows of what was to come. It's prophecy.

Because, the chapter tells us the real story of Marry and how christians distorted the massage.

There is no distortion to the message in regards to Mary. Mary is not elevated to a position above any other person. Mary was blessed among women to be vessel for the word. No more.

Again, it is to tell the real story of Jesus. Why in the Qur'an? Well, i assumed you understand that all the Massangers of Allah from Adam to Muhammad we accept and respect. Allah tells us their stories so that we take lessons and do not repeat their followers mistakes. If the stories weren't relevant to us, it would't be in the Qur'an. Simple as that.

Sorry, but I do not believe you know the real Yeshua. The Qur'an portrays Yeshua as a failure. :( there are none of His teachings in the Qur'an. Really I looked for them.. You tell me where they are if I missed them? So how you can say you love and respect Yeshua if you have no real knowledge of Him? Same for prophets, like Adam, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Noah, Job, David and many others were "types" of Yeshua to show of what was to come. You have different stories and the small changes are very subtle but have huge consequences. Because they hide from you the full message of the OT prophets. If they were not important why did God send them? So, I can only see that for some reason God does not want you to see the big picture. I don't know why that is.

Again, you are implying that it is difficult to understand Qur'an and i do not agree. And, God's massage never changes from people to people or according to ages. I hope you understand, from islamic perspective, the massage has been the same from begening to end which is islam.

The only message I see is worship God as one, well Jews and Christians were already doing that for centuries so why the need for this new version.. Because it is not the same message except at its base level which was already known. It's your belief Gods message from beginning was Islam and all the prophets did teach that, I don't see they did.

Again, islam and your faith conflicts here. We do not inherited the sin. We are not responsible for what Adam did so there is no suffering here. It is the way Allah created us that we are prone to both sins and good deeds. Actually, He created us in a way that we are more prone to follow His path. Deep inside, we feel better when we do good, and we feel bad when we sin. By the way, Adam had repented and had been forgiven by Allah for his sin.

Then Adam received from his Lord [some] words, and He accepted his repentance. Indeed, it is He who is the Accepting of repentance, the Merciful.(2:37)

No, you are confused. We do NOT inherit the sin, that's not what I said. We inherit the sin nature. We are responsible for our own sins. If we did not have sin nature we would have no sin within us and we would have remained pure and sinless as first creation. God is perfect, Bible teaches that what God creates is perfect. Why would God create something that was other than perfect in His eyes? How would imperfection reflect to the glory of God? Next you will be saying you believe God created evil!!! Because if you believe God created us with the capacity for good and bad, then surely God created evil! NO.. Evil exists in the absence of Good. God abhors evil so it's logical to conclude that evil can only exist in the absence of God.


Yes, Adam and Eve were forgiven by God, Satan the main protagonist was not and is forever cursed. However, their sin of disobedience to God, although forgiven, still carried a penalty. That being banishment from Gods presence and to die a mortal death.

Then, you believe a God that lacks "love". But, wait, your "love" comes from Yeshua, right.

no you are very wide of the mark with your understanding. God does not lack love, but best you don't confuse the human emotion of love with God. God IS love, love personified. All of creation was born from this love. We see God demonstrated this agape love through Yeshua, His death and resurrection. You see this as a cruel unjust thing, we see it as the greatest act of agape love God has shown towards His beloved creation.. Mankind.

Oh wait.. I forget, you believe the crucifixion never happened ;)

Sorry, that makes no sense to me.

In order to fulfil the requirement of Lamb of God

According to islam, Adam and his wife are equaly responsible for the sin.




Let me be clear here. When we say Allah forgives all sins, it requires certain conditions. First, you have to accept your sin and feel really sorry for it and be determined not to do it again and repent Allah. Even then, as a muslim, you can't be sure that you are forgiven. That is why, muslims should be in a state of between "hope" and "fear". We fear because we are sinners, we hope that Allah is the merciful. And that should force a muslim to do better constantly.




That is where you are so wrong, i think. You attribute a deficiency to God and you try to fulfill it with Yeshua, or Christ. That is associating partners with god, giving His attributions to someone else. You need to think about it.





Again, that is associating partners with the Creator. The commandments belong to the Creator. And, pleasing God means doing what He wants us to do and avoiding things that He forbid. That pleases Him and is best for our happiness.



He send Jesus and All His massangers to show you the truth, his right path.



Sooo wrong, you are the one who will do good or bad and you will be judged according to your deeds. You are contradicting to yourself here. Once you say "it does not seem logical to me for God just to forgive all sin" and later you say "I rely totally on Gods grace".




Mercy comes from love. God is not "love" but God loves us all.

I will repeat again that You need to think about your perception of the Creator. He does not need anyone or anything as a bridge between Him and his creation. Our "saviour" is our God. I hope you think about it.



Fortunataly, i know Allah's love to his creation. Peace to you as well.[/quote]
 

Cariad

Junior Member
Sorry my above post is not complete, I got logged out and it did not save. I will maybe reply to other points another time. :)

Peace and God bless
 

cabdixakim

Junior Member
What's the test?

I say from my point of view, sorry if it's is offensive to you. But I do not see how the Qur'an is word of God verbatim as you believe it to be. It would be easier for me to accept it as an inspired word of God like Bible is but there are too many difficulties to be verbatim. I accept this is how muslims understand it. Like I find it offensive to hear words implying christians believe God has a son with Mary. Offensive and also blasphemous, because it is not consistent to how God and the Son are revealed in the Bible. If muslims get this idea in their heads from reading the Qur'an then I how would such misconception be the hand of God.

I meant muslims take lessons.. Not Islam, sorry did I say Islam. That makes no sense of course lesson learnt are for followers.. Muslims and Christians etc. Yes, I am aware of the stories of the prophets in the Qur'an, the accounts of the prophets in the Qur'an seem incomplete. The changes made from the Bible accounts may appear to be small but sometimes have bigger consequences. Why has Mary a sura named for her? That puzzled me. And some of the very few stories of Yeshua were first found in the Gnostics which were not written for hundreds of years after Yeshua.. And have no provenance. Then why are they in Qur'an? It may seem I am being negative in criticism, sorry if that is so. But really I am not a person to accept something that causes me doubt, not when it effects my eternal destination. I'm sure you would not just accept something if you had doubts.




Yes, I see that. If God sends a message that He means you to follow would He make it so difficult for one to understand? Maybe God sends His message differently to different peoples according to their understanding.



what do you not understand from what I said? Prone to sin? No.. We are sinners full stop. There is no choice as we inherited a sin nature from Adam our father of humanity. Yes, Adam was the first sinner and we all suffer the consequences of that first sin. You say what would I have my God do? Dismiss him? Yes.. Exactly that, and that is what the Bible teaches God did. If God is Holy then it is the only thing that makes sense. The Bible teaches God does not view sin lightly, yes God is merciful and He loves us so much He does not want not one of His created souls to go to Hell for eternity, in fact God does not put us into Hell we put ourselves into that place. Only God can prevent us going there.

So why does God expel Adam from the garden after his fall into sin? Not just for a short while to teach him the error of his ways but for eternity. Even placing Cherubim with flaming swords to prevent any return by Adam. This was the penalty Adam paid for his sin of disobedience. All sin is disobeying God. The glory and holiness of God demands a penalty for sin against Him, if He does not then God justice is compromised. This is the Bible accounts explains Gods punishment.. Notice the Serpent (Satan) is the only one who punishment is eternal, because of cause God knows who is the main antagonist and why. Adam and Eve were given the chance to redeem themselves and mankind. As sin came into the world through the first Adam its solution comes through the last Adam (Yeshua) that's why Yeshua had to be born of woman... But not of man.

Genesis
14 So the Lord God spoke to the serpent. He said, “Because you have done this,

“You are set apart from all livestock
and all wild animals.
I am putting a curse on you.
You will crawl on your belly.
You will eat dust
all the days of your life.
15 I will make you and the woman hate each other.
Your children and her children will be enemies.
Her son will crush your head.
And you will bite his heel.”

16 The Lord God said to the woman,

“I will increase your pain when you give birth.
You will be in great pain when you have children.
You will long for your husband.
And he will rule over you.”

17 The Lord God said to Adam, “You listened to your wife’s suggestion. You ate fruit from the tree I warned you about. I said, ‘You must not eat its fruit.’

“So I am putting a curse on the ground because of what you did.
All the days of your life you will have to work hard.
It will be painful for you to get food from the ground. 18 You will eat plants from the field,
even though the ground produces thorns and prickly weeds.
19 You will have to work hard and sweat a lot
to produce the food you eat.
You were made out of the ground.
You will return to it when you die.
You are dust,
and you will return to dust.”

That's why it does not seem logical to me for God just to forgive all sin, where is Gods divine justice there? I don't see the scenario of our attitude towards sin becoming worse and worse if we thought God would not be merciful and forgive us. Maybe that is how you see things. How can a person live like that though? It is despair and yes it would lead to loss of hope. We have hope in the Christ, so it's different for christians I guess. We are under grace not law. Yeshua fulfilled the law. Make no mistake there has to be repentance, without it we are not worthy of Gids Grace and for that we would rightly deserve a Christless eternity devoid of Gods love.



We don't hope for rewards for avoiding sin. If we follow Yeshuas commandments then we understand that striving to avoid sin is pleasing to God. We try to live our life to the glory of God. At times we may fail, God knows that... That's why He sent Yeshua as Saviour. I know there is nothing I can do of my person to effect my salvation, I rely totally on Gods grace. I am happy in this as I know God is just, as He is merciful but most of all God is love. That is the most important thing the other is God wants relationship with us. :)


Peace that you always know Gods love.

Btw, sorry for the long post, and also if it makes no sense to you. :) sometimes something is easy to know in your heart but not so easy to explain to others. Like Islam is clear to you because it's what you know.


greetings,@Cariad

I Still did not get anything close to satisfactory response for what I've raised above but I'd still like to force my way into this discussion too as I find some interesting points you mentioned... If you'd allow me...

in the reply you gave me, you said what suggests; "how can a person know God? no one can describe God without knowing Him first hand..." so bear that in mind.

meanwhile, in most of your posts, you seem to be giving attributes to God or code of conduct according to your logic e.g since God banished Adam for his sin then (to your logic) God's divine justice is that no sin passes by without a punishment... even though you contradict yourself by saying "you rely on God's grace" my question is; is it written in the bible that God never forgives a sin without punishment?... or it is you and the church that attribute that to God?

... here is what I understand from how you understand sin: sin must always be punished, and since mankind inherited the nature of it and God so much loves man,he sent his own to take the punishment of sin from mankind and so man may live with the comfort of having being forgiven before even committing a sin because he was baptised and accepted Yeshua..."

firstly, this understanding limits God(and you always reason like this so allow me too) as (i) why God put such a law as "sin must be punished" if He knew a sacrifice to overdo it would be necessary one day?( ii) To whom above him must God have answered to for not fulfilling the law?

Secondly, by saying "someone of God's own had to sacrifice" you're absolutely comfirming what @mezeren tells you all day that you associate partners,family or some equality to God...

Thirdly, the whole thing becomes a joke when you think of someone being forgiven for fornication before he even committed it because Adam(p.b.u.h) ate a fruit and so God overdid His divine justice through the "crusifiction"... so which is graver; committing adultery or eating a fruit?

fourthly,if the " divine justice"(Your terms) was ruled over after and because of the incident " crusifction" then what happened to all the people before it? Did God not love them too?

lastly, why is there the need for Hell if someone died for the sins of people?...

Here is the Islamic version: man is created weak and sinful except whom Allah protected. And if Allah Was to catch people for their sins no single human would've remained on earth and so Allah revealed to them that He is the Forgiver and forgives anyone who repents before punishment or death comes to him... And so there is no limit to God's power... sin only preceeds a punishment but if someone repents before the punishment fulfilling conditions of repentance then he's forgiven... those who don't maybe punished in this world or not but will surely be punished in the Hereafter and that is absolute justice of God!

I also have indications regarding the Genesis you've wrote:
In verse 14, it suggests serpents eat dust, whether metaphorically or literally,that's an apparent error!

in verse 16, it says, pregnancy and birth is a punishment from God to women (because Eve tempted Adam→ according to context)...but wait, I thought we said the nature of sin,original sin, divine justice, or the Law Was fulfilled so why are women in the 21st century still going through a punishment of a sin over ruled(by crusifiction) 2 000 years ago? Something is not adding up and it can never add up if told to anyone who uses simple logic!

And finally In verse 17, the bible blames Eve to be primarily responsible for the sin!... completely opposite to what the Qur'an has to say which holds them both responsible and highlights how they repented, were forgiven and guided.
 
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Cariad

Junior Member
Greetings to you @ cabdixakim - For this you say.. "crusifiction".. I see no point in dialogue with you. I thank @mezeren for the polite dialogue he raised some interesting points, even though I found his arguments unconvincing. But always good to think.

I leave you an article, any other answer if you genuinely wanted to know then you I'm sure can find a better source than I. I don't claim to be a theologian, but an ordinary christian woman who has a great love for God. I think today as my time on this world is short, and why I chat here when it usually leaves me feeling sad, I should be doing things that make me happy. ...


The reason Jesus had to die for our sins was so that we could be forgiven and go to be with the Lord. Jesus is God in flesh (John 1:1, 14, Col. 2:9), and only God can satisfy the Law requirements of a perfect life and perfect sacrifice that cleanses us of our sins.

All people have sinned against God. But, God is infinitely holy and righteous. He must punish the sinner, the Lawbreaker. If He didn't, then His law is not Law, for there is no law that is a law without a punishment. The punishment for breaking the Law is death - separation from God. Therefore, we sinners need a way to escape the righteous judgment of God. Since we are stained by sin and cannot keep the Law of God, then the only one who could do what we cannot is God Himself. That is why Jesus is God in flesh. He is both divine and human. He was made under the Law (Gal. 4:4), and He fulfilled it perfectly. Therefore, His sacrifice to God the Father on our behalf is of infinite value and is sufficient to cleanse all people from their sins and undo the offense to God.

The following outline is an attempt to break this down, step-by-step, using Scripture and logic. I hope that it helps you understand why God is our Savior and not some created thing. Also, I hope that it helps you understand that you must trust in Christ alone for the forgiveness of your sins and that you can do nothing on your own to merit salvation from God.

  1. God exists.
    1. Gen. 1:1, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."
  2. God is infinite.
    1. Psalm 90:2, "Before the mountains were born or You gave birth to the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God."
    2. Psalm 147:5, "Great is our Lord, and abundant in strength; His understanding is infinite."
    3. Jer. 23:24, "Can a man hide himself in hiding places, so I do not see him?” declares the Lord. “Do I not fill the heavens and the earth?” declares the Lord."
  3. God is holy.
    1. Isaiah 6:3, "And one called out to another and said, 'Holy, Holy, Holy, is the Lord of hosts. The whole earth is full of His glory.'”
    2. Rev. 4:8, "And the four living creatures, each one of them having six wings, are full of eyes around and within; and day and night they do not cease to say, 'Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God, the Almighty, who was and who is and who is to come.'"
  4. God is righteous.
    1. Neh. 9:32-33, "Now therefore, our God, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God, who dost keep covenant and lovingkindness, Do not let all the hardship seem insignificant before You, which has come upon us, our kings, our princes, our priests, our prophets, our fathers, and on all Your people, from the days of the kings of Assyria to this day. 33 However, You are just in all that has come upon us."
    2. 2 Thess. 1:6, "For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you."
  5. Therefore, God is infinitely holy and just.
  6. Furthermore, God speaks out of the character of what He is.
    1. Matt. 12:34, "...For the mouth speaks out of that which fills the heart."
  7. God spoke the Law.
    1. Exodus 20:1-17, "Then God spoke all these words, saying, 2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. 3 “You shall have no other gods before Me..."
  8. Therefore, the Law is in the heart of God and is a reflection of God's character since it is Holy and good.
    1. Rom. 7:12, "So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good."
  9. Furthermore, to break the Law of God is to offend Him since it is His Law that we break. This sin results in an infinite offense because God is infinite.
  10. Furthermore, it is also right that God punish the Lawbreaker. To not punish the Lawbreaker (sinner) is to allow an offense against His holiness to be ignored.
    1. Amos 2:4, "Thus says the Lord, “For three transgressions of Judah and for four I will not revoke its punishment, because they rejected the law of the Lord and have not kept His statutes."
    2. Rom. 4:15, "...for the Law brings about wrath."
  11. God says that the person who sins must die (be punished). The wages of sin is death.
    1. Ezekiel 18:4, "Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine. The soul who sins will die."
    2. Rom. 6:23, "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
  12. The sinner needs to escape the righteous judgment of God, or he will face damnation.
    1. Rom. 1:18, "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness."
    2. Matt. 25:46, "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
  13. But, no sinner can undo an infinite offense since to please God and make things right, he must obey the Law, which is the standard of God's righteous character.
    1. Gal. 2:16, "...by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."
    2. Gal. 2:21, "I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."
  14. But the sinner cannot fulfill the law because he is sinful (in the flesh).
    1. Rom. 8:3, "For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son..."
  15. Since the sinner cannot fulfill the law and satisfy God, it follows that only God can do this.
    1. This is simple logic. If we are unable to fulfill the Law, then we will be punished by it. But, since God desires us to be saved, the Law must be satisfied. Since we cannot keep the Law and it must be satisfied, then the only one capable of keeping the Law must keep the Law: God.
  16. Jesus is God in flesh.
    1. John 1:1, 14, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God... 14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."
    2. Col. 2:9, "For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form."
  17. Jesus was also a man under the Law.
    1. 1 Tim. 2:5, "For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."
    2. Gal. 4:4-5, "But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, 5in order that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons."
  18. Jesus became sin for us and bore our sins in His body on the cross - thus fulfilling the Law.
    1. 2 Cor. 5:21, "He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."
    2. 1 Peter 2:24, "and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed."
    3. Rom. 8:3-4, "For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit."
  19. Therefore, salvation is by grace through faith since it was not by our keeping the Law but by Jesus, God in flesh, who fulfilled the Law and died in our place.
    1. Eph. 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, that no one should boast."
    2. Gal. 3:13, "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us - for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree. https://carm.org/christianity/christian-doctrine/why-did-jesus-have-die-our-sins
 

mezeren

Junior Member
Apologies, I won't be responding further to post.

That is sad but ok. You do not have to respond here. But, think about associating partners with your God. Because, that is the greatest of sins.

Open your hearth to the truth and do not be affraid to go against your belief if you feel some of what you believe could be wrong.

I wish you best.
 

cabdixakim

Junior Member
Greetings to you @ cabdixakim - For this you say.. "crusifiction".. I see no point in dialogue with you. I thank @mezeren for the polite dialogue he raised some interesting points, even though I found his arguments unconvincing. But always good to think.

I leave you an article, any other answer if you genuinely wanted to know then you I'm sure can find a better source than I. I don't claim to be a theologian, but an ordinary christian woman who has a great love for God. I think today as my time on this world is short, and why I chat here when it usually leaves me feeling sad, I should be doing things that make me happy. ...


The reason Jesus had to die for our sins was so that we could be forgiven and go to be with the Lord. Jesus is God in flesh (John 1:1, 14, Col. 2:9), and only God can satisfy the Law requirements of a perfect life and perfect sacrifice that cleanses us of our sins.

All people have sinned against God. But, God is infinitely holy and righteous. He must punish the sinner, the Lawbreaker. If He didn't, then His law is not Law, for there is no law that is a law without a punishment. The punishment for breaking the Law is death - separation from God. Therefore, we sinners need a way to escape the righteous judgment of God. Since we are stained by sin and cannot keep the Law of God, then the only one who could do what we cannot is God Himself. That is why Jesus is God in flesh. He is both divine and human. He was made under the Law (Gal. 4:4), and He fulfilled it perfectly. Therefore, His sacrifice to God the Father on our behalf is of infinite value and is sufficient to cleanse all people from their sins and undo the offense to God.

The following outline is an attempt to break this down, step-by-step, using Scripture and logic. I hope that it helps you understand why God is our Savior and not some created thing. Also, I hope that it helps you understand that you must trust in Christ alone for the forgiveness of your sins and that you can do nothing on your own to merit salvation from God.

  1. God exists.
    1. Gen. 1:1, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."
  2. God is infinite.
    1. Psalm 90:2, "Before the mountains were born or You gave birth to the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God."
    2. Psalm 147:5, "Great is our Lord, and abundant in strength; His understanding is infinite."
    3. Jer. 23:24, "Can a man hide himself in hiding places, so I do not see him?” declares the Lord. “Do I not fill the heavens and the earth?” declares the Lord."
  3. God is holy.
    1. Isaiah 6:3, "And one called out to another and said, 'Holy, Holy, Holy, is the Lord of hosts. The whole earth is full of His glory.'”
    2. Rev. 4:8, "And the four living creatures, each one of them having six wings, are full of eyes around and within; and day and night they do not cease to say, 'Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God, the Almighty, who was and who is and who is to come.'"
  4. God is righteous.
    1. Neh. 9:32-33, "Now therefore, our God, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God, who dost keep covenant and lovingkindness, Do not let all the hardship seem insignificant before You, which has come upon us, our kings, our princes, our priests, our prophets, our fathers, and on all Your people, from the days of the kings of Assyria to this day. 33 However, You are just in all that has come upon us."
    2. 2 Thess. 1:6, "For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you."
  5. Therefore, God is infinitely holy and just.
  6. Furthermore, God speaks out of the character of what He is.
    1. Matt. 12:34, "...For the mouth speaks out of that which fills the heart."
  7. God spoke the Law.
    1. Exodus 20:1-17, "Then God spoke all these words, saying, 2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. 3 “You shall have no other gods before Me..."
  8. Therefore, the Law is in the heart of God and is a reflection of God's character since it is Holy and good.
    1. Rom. 7:12, "So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good."
  9. Furthermore, to break the Law of God is to offend Him since it is His Law that we break. This sin results in an infinite offense because God is infinite.
  10. Furthermore, it is also right that God punish the Lawbreaker. To not punish the Lawbreaker (sinner) is to allow an offense against His holiness to be ignored.
    1. Amos 2:4, "Thus says the Lord, “For three transgressions of Judah and for four I will not revoke its punishment, because they rejected the law of the Lord and have not kept His statutes."
    2. Rom. 4:15, "...for the Law brings about wrath."
  11. God says that the person who sins must die (be punished). The wages of sin is death.
    1. Ezekiel 18:4, "Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine. The soul who sins will die."
    2. Rom. 6:23, "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
  12. The sinner needs to escape the righteous judgment of God, or he will face damnation.
    1. Rom. 1:18, "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness."
    2. Matt. 25:46, "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
  13. But, no sinner can undo an infinite offense since to please God and make things right, he must obey the Law, which is the standard of God's righteous character.
    1. Gal. 2:16, "...by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."
    2. Gal. 2:21, "I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."
  14. But the sinner cannot fulfill the law because he is sinful (in the flesh).
    1. Rom. 8:3, "For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son..."
  15. Since the sinner cannot fulfill the law and satisfy God, it follows that only God can do this.
    1. This is simple logic. If we are unable to fulfill the Law, then we will be punished by it. But, since God desires us to be saved, the Law must be satisfied. Since we cannot keep the Law and it must be satisfied, then the only one capable of keeping the Law must keep the Law: God.
  16. Jesus is God in flesh.
    1. John 1:1, 14, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God... 14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."
    2. Col. 2:9, "For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form."
  17. Jesus was also a man under the Law.
    1. 1 Tim. 2:5, "For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."
    2. Gal. 4:4-5, "But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, 5in order that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons."
  18. Jesus became sin for us and bore our sins in His body on the cross - thus fulfilling the Law.
    1. 2 Cor. 5:21, "He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."
    2. 1 Peter 2:24, "and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed."
    3. Rom. 8:3-4, "For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit."
  19. Therefore, salvation is by grace through faith since it was not by our keeping the Law but by Jesus, God in flesh, who fulfilled the Law and died in our place.
    1. Eph. 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, that no one should boast."
    2. Gal. 3:13, "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us - for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree. https://carm.org/christianity/christian-doctrine/why-did-jesus-have-die-our-sins


Greetings again, @Cariad

I thought we followed the respect to make clear distinctions between my belief and what you believe in... I do not believe in the "crusifixion" for my belief, it was not Jesus(p.b.u.h) on the cross but someone resembled to him... and thus why I say "crusifiction"... not so I may offend you but to make it clear how I take it...

I apologise had I unintentionally hurt you but I never expect the word "hurt" to apply there... since you went as far as calling the Qur'an blasphemous and wanting to hide the true message of the OT, I didn't expect it would hurt you if I say I don't believe in crusifixion!

This article says many things, the biggest of which is the claim that; Jesus is God... Is Jesus God to you? What about YHWH? And by Jesus referring to God the father as the third person each time he speaks about him, doesn't it make Jesus separate from God the father?

also notice: i) how "... the infinite offense..." in point 9 has no bible verses backing it up there
ii) how point 16 completely contradicts with point 17 following it: Is Jesus God in flesh or Man under the Law?

I didn't want to end the discussion in suspense as the article would've been left unanswered to... otherwise I respect your decision of not wanting to resond to anything further.
 

Cariad

Junior Member
It is not to do with discussion or article. It is personal which has caused me to consider other things are more important.
 

Cariad

Junior Member
That is sad but ok. You do not have to respond here. But, think about associating partners with your God. Because, that is the greatest of sins.

Open your hearth to the truth and do not be affraid to go against your belief if you feel some of what you believe could be wrong.

I wish you best.
It's ok, God has no partners. God knows my heart so it doesn't matter what you think. :)

I wish you the best also.
 

a_stranger

Junior Member
The basis of Islam and its essence is the truth of the transcendence of God which refers to the fact that the Being of God and His attributes are absolutely dissimilar with creation and cre- ated things; that is, He and His attributes are beyond creation.

Muhammad William Charlis
 

a_stranger

Junior Member
That declaration was made some 1400 years ago. Anyone who cares
Muhammad to compare copies of the Koran around the world today antique and modern will indeed find that the Koran declares : “Subhana rabbika rabbi l-izzati amma yasifun / سبحان رّبك رب الع ّزة ع ّما يصفون”; which we can translate as follows: “Hallow your Lord, the Lord of Glory [by holding Him above all defect and imperfection] and what they ascribe to Him [of meanings which do not befit Him.]3” −al-Saffat: 180.4 In the above translation, I have employed the word hallow in its older, original sense that, according to The Shorter Oxford Dictionary, 1933, means: “to honour as holy (esp. God or His name).”
An instance of this usage is provided in The Lord’s Prayer of the Christians: “Our Father, hallowed be Thy name.” Hallow and holy are both derived from a common Old English root, the underlying idea being that which is pure and free of all imperfection and fail- ing. We could equally well have translated hallow as declare or acknowledge the transcendence of.


Muhammad William Charlis
 
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