why there is no thread about the pope speech

[Mabsoot]

Well then, it seems I'm getting some awfully aggressive responses here, which is quite expected, I suppose. It's all those same things about the evil media and so on. Please, understand that I'm not being influenced by the media, especially the sort of "corrupted" american media.
I'll let things cool down now, so that, you don't... you know.. behead me
I know, bad joke.

Anyway, good luck. I'll probably check how much I've been flamed in this thread from time to time.

Nobody has been aggressive to you, nor is there flaming.

Seems your responses are pretty immature to say the least, and im not sure you are in the least bit bothered to know where the truth actually lies.

What is required here is sincerity and empathy for all people. We have explained pretty clearly the Islamic position and also the cost to human life due to those soldiers you so heartily back.

The media argument is not a weak one. If you had any idea about human suffering due to various States around the world, you would not be saying what you say.

All you have done is complained about a group of mercenaries getting killed in IRaq.

The premise should be that every life is valuable. No innocent should ever get hurt or oppressed.

What im tired of is people who keep complaining about Muslims, when its the Muslims who are being killed in the 100,000s.....

Yes, 9/11 was a tradgedy... Even though many rich people sitting in the twin towers, who were forcing debt laden contracts on poor people died. It is still a crime.. it is still murder.

However, that does not justify demonising the innocent Muslims or Islam.

If you had any sympathy for humanity, you would have realised the cost of the so-called "War on Terror". 200,000 Iraqis, 1000s of Afghans, tens of thousands of Chechens, 1000s of Palestinians and Lebanese have died...... men, women and children because of "State terror". They are not terrorists, they didnt do anything wrong. Their only crime was to be on resource rich land, land of strategic importance, land greedily lusted over by Zionist Jews and Christians.

- Yet, all you see is a few angry people who use "Islam" to carry out revenge.. and you are content to label all Muslims as terrorists.

The sheer ordasity people have, when coming up with this rubbish is beyond me. Either its ignorance or it is hatred. Muslims have had 1000s of their own 9/11s with nobody coming to help or eradicate the War criminals

You are definitely not being flamed or treated unfairly. I dont believe you have any excuse to carry on with your close-minded ideas.

What is wrong with treating everyone equal and being fair and impartial?

Take a look at some of the videos in the current affairs section:

The video is by an Australian, his name is John Pilger.....

http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=245

 

[mr. ok]

Dear Rob

Well then, it seems I'm getting some awfully aggressive responses here, which is quite expected, I suppose. It's all those same things about the evil media and so on. Please, understand that I'm not being influenced by the media, especially the sort of "corrupted" american media.
I'll let things cool down now, so that, you don't... you know.. behead me
I know, bad joke.

Anyway, good luck. I'll probably check how much I've been flamed in this thread from time to time.

O so its okay for you to say anything (before thinking/getting your FACTS straight) and not be judged? It’s amazing how people can point fingers at us (Muslims) and then try to justify themselves, and make it look like we are the bad guys all of a sudden.

Okay so you’re not influenced by "American media," fair enough. How about Finland's? In order for someone to make a comment on something, in this case on Islam, you have to at least know something about it. Whatever you said so far was based on outside knowledge (what you have seen or see), because I certainly didn’t see anything except you making some assumptions on Islam. I hope I didn’t miss the part where you stated some solid evidence.

If your a christian (or not) here is something once said by a wise man: why do you look at the faults of your brother and fail to notice the speck in your own eye?

If Islam approves terrorism then i dont know why am wasting my time being a Muslim as peace is what i stand for and live by!

Pleace forgive me if i said anything offensive or sounded unsounded in anyway.

Best Regards,

Mr. Ok

 

[Mrmuslim]

Well then, it seems I'm getting some awfully aggressive responses here, which is quite expected, I suppose. It's all those same things about the evil media and so on. Please, understand that I'm not being influenced by the media, especially the sort of "corrupted" american media.
I'll let things cool down now, so that, you don't... you know.. behead me
I know, bad joke.

Anyway, good luck. I'll probably check how much I've been flamed in this thread from time to time.

Well Robb, no one has been aggressive with you or said anything bad to you. did they?
All what they listed in response to what you accused them with...aren’t they have the right to defend what you accusing the whole 9 billion Muslim with? Isn’t it that what you call in Democracy ? No one has been aggressive with you or even said bad words to you. They all listed facts from history and from news no one made up anything with what they said.

If you consider that saying the truth hurts then ya it might hurts but that the truth Islam has nothing to do with killing, if you want to associate Islam with things like this then you are Wrong and you just closing your mind to understand the true Islam, you already made you mind and don’t want to hear anything else against your Idea.

You are always welcome to discuss here in this site but just try to have respect to the feeling of your friends in here too as they trying to be with you The problem is when one Muslim or even group of Muslim do something wrong in any part of the world people and Media BLAME THE WHOLE 9 BILLION muslims, on other hand when any chiristian or people of other faith do anything wrong you will blam the person not his religion.... the point is ..Not every Muslim follows the Islamic teaching so you cant associate Islam and Muslim nation for the wrong things they do or did

Last but not least I would suggest you read or watch section Learn about Islam at least for the sake you can say you watched them...

at the end I just wanted to show you some facts since you said Hindu never did anything bad .....

Two hundred and thirty unique Islamic monuments, including an exquisite 400-year-old mosque, were destroyed or vandalised during the recent anti-Muslim riots in the Indian state of Gujarat, according to a local survey.
Experts say the damage is so extensive that it rivals the better publicised destruction of the Bamiyan Buddhas in Afghanistan or the wrecking of Tibet's monasteries by the Red Guards.

Several monuments have been reduced to rubble in the course of the riot, in which 2,000 people, mainly Muslims, have died. In other disturbances, Hindu gangs have smashed delicate mosque screens, thrown bricks at Persian inscriptions, and set fire to old Korans.

I am not sure YOU WILL take the time to read this too.. hopfully you do..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1857414.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1933521.stm

Then after what they did they denide visa to Amnesty

Amnesty denied visa

By Anjali Mody
NEW DELHI July 22. An Amnesty International team has been denied visas to India because it wanted to go to Gujarat to investigate the massacres and other human rights violations and to monitor the progress made in bringing their perpetrators to justice.

In a statement issued today, Amnesty International said, "This refusal damages the image of both the Indian and Gujarat Governments before their citizens and the international community. A Government which fully accepts its responsibilities in protecting its citizens and upholds their constitutional rights to life and equality does not shy away from international scrutiny
Amnesty said that the Indian Government's refusal to grant it access to the State would "only reinforce the concern that the Government of Gujarat and the State police might have been accomplices in preparing the ground for the violence and in allowing it to occur and could be attempting now to cover up involvement of their officials.''

I hope you review what you said about muslim and Islam and think with open mind.


Thanks

wa salaam

 

[Ahmed ibn Ibrahim]

You won't find any flaming here, Robb - but what you will find are the TRUE faces of Islam trying their best to show you what practicing Muslims believe about what's happened and about how world-wide media (when Geroge Bush announces ties between Muslims and 9/11 for instance, EVERY media outlet displays his messages, which gets the ball rolling against a whole group of people on the "axis of evil" - followed by announcement after announement, Yellow Alert this, Saddam Hussain that, Al-Queda the other) ... and, basically, it's gotten out of control and reason.

If you want some details in video form, check this reminder from Ali. =)

If you perceive our honest intentions to share and educate as aggressive, that's your call. But if I were to say that my impression of you was very poor for incorrect reasons, how do you suppose you'd respond in turn - assuming you'd even care enough to try to clear your name with me. It's not an ideal situation, for anyone.

Peace be with you; it's the only path.

 

[Mrmuslim]

Muhammad's Sword AN ARTICLE BY Uri Avnery;

http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/avnery/1159094813/

23-09-2006


Since the days when Roman Emperors threw Christians to the lions, the relations between the emperors and the heads of the church have undergone many changes.

Constantine the Great, who became Emperor in the year 306 - exactly 1700 years ago - encouraged the practice of Christianity in the empire, which included Palestine. Centuries later, the church split into an Eastern (Orthodox) and a Western (Catholic) part. In the West, the Bishop of Rome, who acquired the title of Pope, demanded that the Emperor accept his superiority.


The struggle between the Emperors and the Popes played a central role in European history and divided the peoples. It knew ups and downs. Some Emperors dismissed or expelled a Pope, some Popes dismissed or excommunicated an Emperor. One of the Emperors, Henry IV, "walked to Canossa", standing for three days barefoot in the snow in front of the Pope's castle, until the Pope deigned to annul his excommunication.

But there were times when Emperors and Popes lived in peace with each other. We are witnessing such a period today. Between the present Pope, Benedict XVI, and the present Emperor, George Bush II, there exists a wonderful harmony. Last week's speech by the Pope, which aroused a world-wide storm, went well with Bush's crusade against "Islamofascism", in the context of the "Clash of Civilizations".

IN HIS lecture at a German university, the 265th Pope described what he sees as a huge difference between Christianity and Islam: while Christianity is based on reason, Islam denies it. While Christians see the logic of God's actions, Muslims deny that there is any such logic in the actions of Allah.

As a Jewish atheist, I do not intend to enter the fray of this debate. It is much beyond my humble abilities to understand the logic of the Pope. But I cannot overlook one passage, which concerns me too, as an Israeli living near the fault-line of this "war of civilizations".

In order to prove the lack of reason in Islam, the Pope asserts that the prophet Muhammad ordered his followers to spread their religion by the sword. According to the Pope, that is unreasonable, because faith is born of the soul, not of the body. How can the sword influence the soul?

To support his case, the Pope quoted - of all people - a Byzantine Emperor, who belonged, of course, to the competing Eastern Church. At the end of the 14th century, the Emperor Manuel II Palaeologus told of a debate he had - or so he said (its occurrence is in doubt) - with an unnamed Persian Muslim scholar. In the heat of the argument, the Emperor (according to himself) flung the following words at his adversary:

"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached".

These words give rise to three questions: (a) Why did the Emperor say them? (b) Are they true? (c) Why did the present Pope quote them?

WHEN MANUEL II wrote his treatise, he was the head of a dying empire. He assumed power in 1391, when only a few provinces of the once illustrious empire remained. These, too, were already under Turkish threat.

At that point in time, the Ottoman Turks had reached the banks of the Danube. They had conquered Bulgaria and the north of Greece, and had twice defeated relieving armies sent by Europe to save the Eastern Empire. On May 29, 1453, only a few years after Manuel's death, his capital, Constantinople (the present Istanbul) fell to the Turks, putting an end to the Empire that had lasted for more than a thousand years.

During his reign, Manuel made the rounds of the capitals of Europe in an attempt to drum up support. He promised to reunite the church. There is no doubt that he wrote his religious treatise in order to incite the Christian countries against the Turks and convince them to start a new crusade. The aim was practical, theology was serving politics.

In this sense, the quote serves exactly the requirements of the present Emperor, George Bush II. He, too, wants to unite the Christian world against the mainly Muslim "Axis of Evil". Moreover, the Turks are again knocking on the doors of Europe, this time peacefully. It is well known that the Pope supports the forces that object to the entry of Turkey into the European Union.

IS THERE any truth in Manuel's argument?

The pope himself threw in a word of caution. As a serious and renowned theologian, he could not afford to falsify written texts. Therefore, he admitted that the Qur'an specifically forbade the spreading of the faith by force. He quoted the second Sura, verse 256 (strangely fallible, for a pope, he meant verse 257) which says: "There must be no coercion in matters of faith".

How can one ignore such an unequivocal statement? The Pope simply argues that this commandment was laid down by the prophet when he was at the beginning of his career, still weak and powerless, but that later on he ordered the use of the sword in the service of the faith. Such an order does not exist in the Qur'an. True, Muhammad called for the use of the sword in his war against opposing tribes - Christian, Jewish and others - in Arabia, when he was building his state. But that was a political act, not a religious one; basically a fight for territory, not for the spreading of the faith.

Jesus said: "You will recognize them by their fruits." The treatment of other religions by Islam must be judged by a simple test: How did the Muslim rulers behave for more than a thousand years, when they had the power to "spread the faith by the sword"?

Well, they just did not.

For many centuries, the Muslims ruled Greece. Did the Greeks become Muslims? Did anyone even try to Islamize them? On the contrary, Christian Greeks held the highest positions in the Ottoman administration. The Bulgarians, Serbs, Romanians, Hungarians and other European nations lived at one time or another under Ottoman rule and clung to their Christian faith. Nobody compelled them to become Muslims and all of them remained devoutly Christian.

True, the Albanians did convert to Islam, and so did the Bosniaks. But nobody argues that they did this under duress. They adopted Islam in order to become favorites of the government and enjoy the fruits.

In 1099, the Crusaders conquered Jerusalem and massacred its Muslim and Jewish inhabitants indiscriminately, in the name of the gentle Jesus. At that time, 400 years into the occupation of Palestine by the Muslims, Christians were still the majority in the country. Throughout this long period, no effort was made to impose Islam on them. Only after the expulsion of the Crusaders from the country, did the majority of the inhabitants start to adopt the Arabic language and the Muslim faith - and they were the forefathers of most of today's Palestinians.

THERE IS no evidence whatsoever of any attempt to impose Islam on the Jews. As is well known, under Muslim rule the Jews of Spain enjoyed a bloom the like of which the Jews did not enjoy anywhere else until almost our time. Poets like Yehuda Halevy wrote in Arabic, as did the great Maimonides. In Muslim Spain, Jews were ministers, poets, scientists. In Muslim Toledo, Christian, Jewish and Muslim scholars worked together and translated the ancient Greek philosophical and scientific texts. That was, indeed, the Golden Age. How would this have been possible, had the Prophet decreed the "spreading of the faith by the sword"?

What happened afterwards is even more telling. When the Catholics re-conquered Spain from the Muslims, they instituted a reign of religious terror. The Jews and the Muslims were presented with a cruel choice: to become Christians, to be massacred or to leave. And where did the hundreds of thousand of Jews, who refused to abandon their faith, escape? Almost all of them were received with open arms in the Muslim countries. The Sephardi ("Spanish") Jews settled all over the Muslim world, from Morocco in the west to Iraq in the east, from Bulgaria (then part of the Ottoman Empire) in the north to Sudan in the south. Nowhere were they persecuted. They knew nothing like the tortures of the Inquisition, the flames of the auto-da-fe, the pogroms, the terrible mass-expulsions that took place in almost all Christian countries, up to the Holocaust.

WHY? Because Islam expressly prohibited any persecution of the "peoples of the book". In Islamic society, a special place was reserved for Jews and Christians. They did not enjoy completely equal rights, but almost. They had to pay a special poll-tax, but were exempted from military service - a trade-off that was quite welcome to many Jews. It has been said that Muslim rulers frowned upon any attempt to convert Jews to Islam even by gentle persuasion - because it entailed the loss of taxes.

Every honest Jew who knows the history of his people cannot but feel a deep sense of gratitude to Islam, which has protected the Jews for fifty generations, while the Christian world persecuted the Jews and tried many times "by the sword" to get them to abandon their faith.

THE STORY about "spreading the faith by the sword" is an evil legend, one of the myths that grew up in Europe during the great wars against the Muslims - the reconquista of Spain by the Christians, the Crusades and the repulsion of the Turks, who almost conquered Vienna. I suspect that the German Pope, too, honestly believes in these fables. That means that the leader of the Catholic world, who is a Christian theologian in his own right, did not make the effort to study the history of other religions.

Why did he utter these words in public? And why now?

There is no escape from viewing them against the background of the new Crusade of Bush and his evangelist supporters, with his slogans of "Islamofascism" and the "Global War on Terrorism" - when "terrorism" has become a synonym for Muslims. For Bush's handlers, this is a cynical attempt to justify the domination of the world's oil resources. Not for the first time in history, a religious robe is spread to cover the nakedness of economic interests; not for the first time, a robbers' expedition becomes a Crusade.

The speech of the Pope blends into this effort. Who can foretell the dire consequences?

 

[Saifullah]

Good points, good points.. But, it doesn't really change my image of islam.
And I don't know where I got the word islamite from, I've heard it somewhere though.
And I don't watch FOX news, any news for that matter. I get the stuff I've seen from our beloved internet, ogrish to be exact

Salaam.

hello Rob, I guess you got the link to this site from me ,I usually debate a lot in ogrish,Specially in the Religous thread by the name of Saif.Ive made posts like The true iran and it's people reality is very different.I paste links to this website a lot over there in ogrish . Specially the video of Safiyah an american jew who lost 8 relatives in sept 11 and yet she converted to islam. I guess thats where you found the link to this website sorry about my english...
But there is one gurantee which i can give you in this turntoislam website nobody will abuse or mock you ,Just like they do to us muslims in ogrish.Thankyou

 

[cedric098]

C'mon Robb!! You can't be serious, is this what you really think after all these replies?..

I'm sure these guys would still call us violent terrorists had we been a bunch of little girls holding dolls in one hand and flowers in the other, just because we are muslims... I'm truly astonished how good tempered the responses to his posts are, but this guy still talks about beheading,flaming, violence and stuff. He clearly has rock hard prejudices and is not really interested in what the truth is! He builds his whole attitude towards a religion by looking at a few pictures and videos on dead-body-pictures-hosting websites...But anyway, may Allah open his eyes insaallah!

 

[khan_saddozai]

salam ppl u gota c dis
Go to this website and watch this film.........do it quickly as it has already
been pulled off several web sites already!........afterwards you'll see why!

http://www.pentagonstrike.co.uk/flash.htm#Main

 

[khan_saddozai]

hey..rob..
it's clear u dnt like islam..fair enough..because i strogly believe in freedom of speech and religion..but jus look at the facts..bin laden was trained by the cia...muslims cope with opression coz they have oil in their countries..and ppl feel threatened by islam spreading..
think about it

 

[Ahmed ibn Ibrahim]

:arabi1:

Very well done Flash video; I've seen other videos with basically the exact same evidence (though with perhaps less eye-witness names) - this one is short and sweet, maybe that's why the Feds don't like it? I hadn't seen as many photographs from within the Pentagon either, come to think of it.

How much more evidence does America need before they fulfill their constitution and rise up to bring down their tyranical government and its overpaid, overpowered agencies?

Who am I kidding. Americans don't care as long as they can still fill up their SUVs in their low-interest-financed, individualistic and selfish values-based comfortable McLives.

This video really deserves its own thread, but perhaps TTI.com is better off with it hidden away in the Pope's thread (*cough* CIA & FBI douchbag hackers *cough*)...

 

[samiha]

Good points, good points.. But, it doesn't really change my image of islam.
And I don't know where I got the word islamite from, I've heard it somewhere though.
And I don't watch FOX news, any news for that matter. I get the stuff I've seen from our beloved internet, ogrish to be exact
And #3: I don't think the way the US fought the war in Iraq was the best way to do it. Too many civilians died in all those bombings, but also many american, british, french, australian, scandinavian etc. soldiers died in the suicide bombings done in the name of allah, while trying to keep peace in Iraq.

I am now from Finland, yeah, very smart of me to lie about my country of origin, very smart

Salaam.

You claim to be an atheist yet give salam? Why? You beleive Islam to be such and you end with peace.... really.

 

[yafash]

aslam alaikum,
wow our dear friend robb,
i was very intriged by this thread, i really have nothing to say all that is sayable has been said, allah knows best. after reading thru nobody has flamed, we hav just presented the truth as it is. we can only call u to islam we cannot make u accept it. we can only also pray that allah guides u. it was very interesting reading what u had to say.
may allah let us see truth as truth and let us accept it, and falsehood as false hood and may he help us reject it.
may allah defend those who have defended his religion with their knowlegde.
asalam aalikum

 

[Abdul Hasib]

Ah ha! Another place for me to contribute =)

Bismillah...

Brothers and Sisters, indeed we have cause for concern regarding the Pope's comments a couple of weeks ago. I have a few comments to share regarding this matter, as I do read the news every single day and I was very disturbed by what Benny had to say. Here is a quote from a trustworthy Canadian newsmedia website, the CBC.ca:

[[When the Pope gave a speech in Germany on Tuesday, he quoted a a 14th century Byzantine Christian Emperor who said 'Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman.' The reaction from Muslims around the world has been swift and furious. Yesterday, the Vatican issued a statement saying 'The Holy Father is very sorry that some passages of his speech may have sounded offensive to the sensibilities of Muslim believers.' Has he truly apologized - and will that be enough?]]

First of all, I would like to point out the obvious. Roman Catholic Christians believe that the Pope is God's representative here on Earth and (this is important) that he is infallible. This means to say that he is unable to make mistakes. I am aware that his apology wasn't for what he said during his speech, but rather that he was sorry that what he said "may" be offensive to Muslims... like he didn't know ahead of time. Okay. So, the Pope is unable to make mistakes... and yet he's sorry for creating a reaction of anger and shock, which he had no idea would happen? Something here doesn't quite add up.

Secondly, I am disgusted by his weak and pathetic apology. What I didn't quote is that the Pope actually said, in defense of himself, words to the effect of: Besides, I was only quoting a 14th century emperor and that those words don't reflect my own opinions. He said this. Uhm, okay - If those words didn't reflect his own opinions... Why would he say them?! I mean, seriously!! Cmon!? Obviously he agrees with them, otherwise the Pope wouldn't have included them in his speech to illustrate his point about how violence and religion should never go hand in hand. I would like to insult Benny at this point, but upon reflection of now being a Muslim I will say nothing except that I leave it to you (my Brothers and Sisters) to make your own judgement, and that I leave it to Allah to make the final and supreme judgement.

And my 2nd point flows nicely into my 3rd comment on all of this. Benny said that he was repulsed on how Muhammad SAW used the sword to spread Islam. Okay, but let's be fair and take a look at the history: Really, our Prophet (peace be upon him) only used the sword to defend the lives of the Muslims when fleeing Mekkah to Medina when the disbelievers were plotting all sorts of things against him, and while in Medina in self-defense. It's not like he went over to Iran and said, "You guys revert to Islam, or I'm gunna keel you!" No, this isn't the case and anyone who isn't an ignorant dungbeetle knows this.

HOWEVER (and yes, this is a BIG however) ... Let's take a trip down Memory Lane. Anyone remember the history of the Christian Church? Anyone? Good, because I do! It all started with the last Roman Emporer Constantine deciding that he was unable to control his empire from also worshipping "God"/"Jehovah"/"Allah" so he was better off just accepting Christianity. Infact, not only did he accept it but he made it a thing that was mandatory across the whole of his empire (for tax reasons, too). If you weren't a Christian, you were an Infidel, a Heretic!! And indeed he commissioned the Roman Catholic Church to begin a whole new chapter of cruelty in human history. We had the dreaded "Confessors", the "Inquisitors" (a little later), and a whole Roman army dedicated to invading any country that didn't accept Constantine's views of Christianity. Anyone remember the "heretics" being burned alive at the stake? Anyone remember the "Christian Soldiers" who would crucify the unbelievers, all across Europe and even elsewhere? Forgive me for discomforting you, my dearest Brothers and Sisters, but the fact of the matter is that it was the Christians who spread religion by the sword! Far more than Muhammad (peace be upon him) or (to my knowledge) any other group of Muslims since!

There is one last point I'd like to make about Constantine, and I believe it reflects a great deal of truth about his mind. It is recorded in history that right at the very end of his life, just before he was about to die that he suddenly insisted on getting baptized. I believe that we Muslims know about baptism with water, because I know John the Baptist is meantioned in the Qu'ran. Basically, it's something that Christians are compelled to do; something that seals your bond with God, and forgives you of any sins you might have commited before swearing your heart over to Christ and to God. He did this right at the very last days of his life. Why? I'll tell you why - Because he had a guilty conscience! Because he was compelled to do whatever he could to make peace with God. Otherwise he would have done it years before. No, this was an act of desparation. Ponder that for a while.

My dearest Brothers and Sisters, I am not saying these things to you in the hopes that you will hate Christians. I am telling you this so that you know the Hak, the truth. Pity the ignorant Christians, but do not hate them. Not even Benny is to blame, because he's just a guy filling the shoes of another guy who's long dead, who was filling the shoes of another guy who's long dead, who was etc. etc. etc. The truth is, Satan is to blame and stupid people (most of whom are already long dead) will have to answer to Allah as to why they chose to listen to the Shaitaan's whispers. I was a Christian for 15 years (yes I know I keep telling you this, but it's the truth) and I always had a heart to serve and please God - All it took was for me to use my rational brain, to put together the facts for myself, and to accept the encouragement of YOU people here at TTI as well as the knowledge this website posseses.

Alhamdulilah

So to answer your questions, Sister Aiwa: Yes he really meant to insult our Prophet SAW, but also to insult the intelligence of the whole world community. Yes he was insulting Islam. No his "apology" was not at all convincing, and may I also accuse him of being a coward for not apologizing himself but instead having to use one of his peons.

And, by the way, I have only dealt in this post with the Roman Catholic History of Violence ... and there is indeed another Roman Catholic History that has nothing to do with this topic, but I'm gunna say it anyway: Roman Catholics need to wake up and fully realize their Church's history regarding Priests sexually abusing young alterboys (and sometimes girls). Of course, you'll never hear Benny talking honestly about this issue - but just remember that next time this dungbeetle tries to insult our religion.

Assalamu Alaikum, my Brothers and Sisters. I hope this knowledge helps you understand, and guide more misinformed believers to Islam. Peace! =)

Assalamu Alaykum,

I was really appalled at what the Pope quoted. If someone quotes something, i would suspect they agree to it, or else why choose the quotation?

Islam was not spread through violence and intimdating people. Islam spread to places as far as China, Mongolia, Phillipines, Malaysia, Indonesia and even the idyllic Seychelles......

someone tell me which army went to the seychelles?? NONE

Islam was accepted readily by the people. It was the Spanish who kept trying to forcefuly convert the people of the Phillipines to Christianity for 400 years!! There are dozens of examples that could be shown of Christian intolerance.. rooted and backed by the leaders of the time such as the Pope. - The Crusaders ransacked, raped, murdered Jews, Muslims and even Christians.. for in their sheer ignorance they did not understand the vast differences between the Arabs who all lived together in Jerusalem.

So, there is A LOT i would say about this subject, inshaAllah will tackle it with more history and examples of Islamic wisdom later.

On a side note, the reactions to these things by Muslims in India and other countries is over the top. The Prophet's own uncles would say the worse things to him and attack him and his followers. The Quraish, his tribe in Makkah persecuted the Muslims. Yet, he was patient. Look at how the Prophet had stones thrown at him when he went to Taif. He was patient and persevered, never shouted back abuse or asked for any revenge against his enemies or their families.

So, yes, i understand why people are angry today, with the invasions of Muslim lands and the torture and abuse of Muslim prisoners (who are not given any fair trials and so are innocent!)... these things all add up... and when the media and pope make out Muslims are the evil ones, it really makes many lose patience and do violent protests. - But, remember they are a small group.. which is given media coverage... The Media doesnt show the various Imams who stop these people and who write about these issues. You are not going to get a newspaper quoting things from this site for example..... They will spend their time looking for someone who has the most wildest and unIslamic views and make out that what he says is Islam.

wasalam.

Yeah and we shouldn't even tgo to the Knight's Templar! I mean,

In 1312, under pressure from King Philip IV of France, Pope Clement V officially disbanded the Order at the Council of Vienne. In 1314, the remaining Templar leaders in France were executed, some by being burned at the stake.

King Edward I (1239–1307) had accorded the Knights Templar a slighter role in public affairs, financial issues often being handled by Italian merchants and diplomacy by mendicant orders. Indeed Edward I raided the treasury in 1283.

When Philip IV, King of France suppressed the order in 1307, King Edward II of England at first refused to believe the accusations. But after the intercession of Pope Clement V, King Edward ordered the seizure of members of the order in England on January 8, 1308. Only handfuls of Templars were duly arrested however. The trial ran from October 22, 1309 until March 18, 1310 in front of Deodatus, Abbot of Lagny and Sicard de Vaur. Most of the Templars acknowledged their belief that the Order's Master could give absolution was heretical, and were then reconciled with the church. However, Willian de la More refused to do so and remained a prisoner in the Tower of London until his death.

The papal Bull of Clement V granting the lands of the Templars to the Knights Hospitaller was ignored until 1324. In 1347, the priests started letting (renting) part of the Temple to lawyers, from which the evolution of the Inner Temple and Middle Temple as Inns of Court derives.

And:

Roman Catholic Church's position

It is the Roman Catholic Church's position that the persecution was unjust; that there was nothing inherently wrong with the Order or its Rule; and that the Pope at the time was pressured into suppressing them by public scandal and royal influence. The Church's response at the time corroborates this position. The papal process started by Pope Clement V, to investigate both the Order as a whole and its members individually found virtually no knights guilty of heresy outside of France. Fifty-four knights were executed in France by French authorities as relapsed heretics after denying their original testimonies before the papal commission; these executions were motivated by Philip's desire to prevent Templars from mounting an effective defence of the Order. It failed miserably, as many members testified against the charges of heresy in the ensuing papal investigation.
Jacques de Molay, nineteenth-century color lithograph by Chevauchet
Jacques de Molay, nineteenth-century color lithograph by Chevauchet

Despite the poor defense of the Order, when the papal commission ended its proceedings on June 5, 1311, it found no evidence that the Order itself held heretical doctrines, or used a "secret rule" apart from the Latin and French rules. On October 16, 1311, at the General Council of Vienne held in Dauphiné, the council voted for the maintenance of the Order.

But on March 22, 1312, Clement V promulgated the bull Vox in excelsis in which he stated that although there was not sufficient reason to condemn the Order, for the common good, the hatred of the Order by Philip IV, the scandal brought about by their trial, and the likely dilapidation of the Order that would to result from the trial, the Order was to be suppressed by the pope’s authority over it. But the order explicitly stated that dissolution was enacted, "with a sad heart, not by definitive sentence, but by apostolic provision."

This was followed by the papal bull Ad Providum on May 2, 1312, which granted all of the Order's lands and wealth to the Hospitallers so that its original purpose could be met, despite Philip's wishes that the lands in France pass to him. Philip held onto some lands until 1318, and in England the crown and nobility held a great deal until 1338; in many areas of Europe the land was never given over to the Hospitaller Order, instead taken over by nobility and monarchs in an attempt to lessen the influence of the Church and its Orders. Of the knights who had not admitted to the charges, against those whom nothing had been found, or those who had admitted but been reconciled to the Church, some joined the Hospitallers (even staying in the same Templar houses); others joined Augustinian or Cistercian houses; and still others returned to secular life with pension. In Portugal and Aragon, the Holy See granted the properties to two new Orders, the Order of Christ and the Order of Montesa respectively, made up largely of Templars in those kingdoms. In the same bull, he urged those who had pleaded guilty be treated “according to the rigours of justice.“
Two Templars burned at the stake, from a French 15th century manuscript
Two Templars burned at the stake, from a French 15th century manuscript

In the end, the only three accused of heresy directly by the papal commission were Jacques de Molay, Grand Master of the Knights Templar, and his two immediate subordinates; they were to renounce their heresy publicly, when de Molay regained his courage and proclaimed the order's and his innocence along with Geoffrey de Charney. The two were arrested by French authorities as relapsed heretics and burned at the stake in 1314. Their ashes were then ground up and dumped into the Seine, so as to leave no relics behind.

It is also worth noting that in no other dominion of Europe were accusations leveled as had been made in France by Philip IV, who was also coincidentally in terrible financial debt to the Templars. So widely was the injustice of Philip's rage against the Templars perceived that the "Curse of the Templars" became legend: Reputedly uttered by the Grand Master Jacques de Molay upon the stake whence he burned, he adjured: "Within one year, God will summon both Clement and Philip to His Judgment for these actions." The fact that both rulers died within a year, as predicted, only heightened the scandal surrounding the suppression of the Order.

 

[Joslyn]

Correction

Ah ha! Another place for me to contribute =)

First of all, I would like to point out the obvious. Roman Catholic Christians believe that the Pope is God's representative here on Earth and (this is important) that he is infallible. This means to say that he is unable to make mistakes. I am aware that his apology wasn't for what he said during his speech, but rather that he was sorry that what he said "may" be offensive to Muslims... like he didn't know ahead of time. Okay. So, the Pope is unable to make mistakes... and yet he's sorry for creating a reaction of anger and shock, which he had no idea would happen? Something here doesn't quite add up.

Hello, brother. I am a revert from Catholicism and I just wanted to point out an error in what you said, because as Muslims, we cannot lie, and I also don't want a potential Catholic revert to read what you said and discount Islam completely because of one mistake. (I know that I almost did that before I came to Islam.) It doesn't detract from everything else you said, but I wanted you to be accurate in your understanding.

So here's the scoop: Catholics do not believe that the Pope himself is infallable. They believe that he speaks infallably *only* when the Pope speaks Ex Cathedra (Latin for "From the Chair (of Saint Peter)." So Pope Benedict can in fact make mistakes when he acts on his own volition.

By the way, the source he quoted was not even Catholic. They were Orthodox, I believe. Not a major point, but interesting nonetheless.

Salaam,
Joslyn

 

[Ahmed ibn Ibrahim]

:salam2:

Hahah, a liar am I now? No sister, this is what I was taught years ago at my private Welsh boarding school during religion class; that the pope is God's representative on Earth and that he's infallible. If I'm wrong, Allah forgive me as well as my teachers, but I assure you there was no intention to lie.

edit: Aah, I see now the "scoop". So he's only infallible when he's sitting in a certain chair... riiiiight. Interesting loophole those Catholics have, then. I suppose after Benny made all these rediculous statements that the world Catholics could assert, "But, you see, he wasn't in his special chair!!!" Give me a break ...

Regardless, I find it amusing that this thread still has life in its veins; It goes to show just how much people care about what Benny had to say as well as these deliberate and direct assaults on Islam. The truth is out there, and I think many have tried to shed light here in this thread.

Perhaps I should start another thread here talking about Benny's recent trip to Turkey? Sure seems like the guy could use some better PR - and truth be told, I was quite impressed by his positive guestures on that trip. He took his shoes off when he went into a Mosque, he prayed for half a minute alongside Muslims, he humoured the Turkish brothers as they took great pains in explaining the Mosque's design and meaning ... I'm sure other brothers and sisters here are aware of other nice things Benny did. Maybe we should put some focus on there? =)

Wasalam

 

[Abdul Hasib]

:salam2:



Perhaps I should start another thread here talking about Benny's recent trip to Turkey? Sure seems like the guy could use some better PR - and truth be told, I was quite impressed by his positive guestures on that trip. He took his shoes off when he went into a Mosque, he prayed for half a minute alongside Muslims, he humoured the Turkish brothers as they took great pains in explaining the Mosque's design and meaning ... I'm sure other brothers and sisters here are aware of other nice things Benny did. Maybe we should put some focus on there? =)

Wasalam

Do let's! (Just playing ) I mean yeah let's do that!

 

[Abdul Hasib]

:salam2:

Hahah, a liar am I now? No sister, this is what I was taught years ago at my private Welsh boarding school during religion class; that the pope is God's representative on Earth and that he's infallible. If I'm wrong, Allah forgive me as well as my teachers, but I assure you there was no intention to lie.

edit: Aah, I see now the "scoop". So he's only infallible when he's sitting in a certain chair... riiiiight. Interesting loophole those Catholics have, then. I suppose after Benny made all these rediculous statements that the world Catholics could assert, "But, you see, he wasn't in his special chair!!!" Give me a break ...

Regardless, I find it amusing that this thread still has life in its veins; It goes to show just how much people care about what Benny had to say as well as these deliberate and direct assaults on Islam. The truth is out there, and I think many have tried to shed light here in this thread.

Perhaps I should start another thread here talking about Benny's recent trip to Turkey? Sure seems like the guy could use some better PR - and truth be told, I was quite impressed by his positive guestures on that trip. He took his shoes off when he went into a Mosque, he prayed for half a minute alongside Muslims, he humoured the Turkish brothers as they took great pains in explaining the Mosque's design and meaning ... I'm sure other brothers and sisters here are aware of other nice things Benny did. Maybe we should put some focus on there? =)

Wasalam

Don't judge sister Joslyn too harshly brother Brandon, she was just giving an...
Waite! What is the word I'm looking for? Oh yeah!

She was just giving a, a, a, a ... Darnit!:angryblue: :angryred: Her opinion or what she knows. Yes! that's what I mean loL:lol:

 

[Abdul Hasib]

Hey, did my face scare everyone away? Ha Ha! I love a good joke!!!! loLeRinAginG! Or was it my avater? Or my smilies?

 

[Ahmed ibn Ibrahim]

Assalam Alaikum

lol - I think it was the Afgani military dude with walkie-talkie Avatar that scared everyone off ;-p

I hope I didn't come off sounding harshly judgmental. Of course I wasn't pleased to be indirectly called a liar, but y'know ... My intentions were good. Allah knows this. =)

All the best

Psst, Abdul Hasib ... you start a new thread titled, "why there is no thread about the pope visit" and I'll go from there ;-p That way we can have two nearly identical threads regarding the pope, and really throw off our brothers and sisters. ;D

Wasalam

 

[Joslyn]

:salam2:

Hahah, a liar am I now? No sister, this is what I was taught years ago at my private Welsh boarding school during religion class; that the pope is God's representative on Earth and that he's infallible. If I'm wrong, Allah forgive me as well as my teachers, but I assure you there was no intention to lie.

edit: Aah, I see now the "scoop". So he's only infallible when he's sitting in a certain chair... riiiiight. Interesting loophole those Catholics have, then. I suppose after Benny made all these rediculous statements that the world Catholics could assert, "But, you see, he wasn't in his special chair!!!" Give me a break ...

Wasalam

I did not mean to imply that you were lying. I merely said that as Muslims we cannot lie, *meaning* we should tell the absolute truth about everything and we should also want to know what the truth is concerning a subject if we have accidently said something that was not fully accurate. Also, if I had seen your post and did not correct you, I would be guilty of lying by omission.

As for the Ex Cathedra statement, I didn't make up the rules... no need to be snippy to be about it to me, brother. And I think there is a specific formula the Pope uses to announce his ex-cathedra statement. Something to the affect of, "I ________, a servant of the servants of God, give this statement for everlasting memory..." It's not like he has to plop into the chair to become infallable.

Also, please do not call Pope Benedict "Benny." You may not like him, I may not like him, and he may have been very wrong in what he said, but his new name is Benedict. I wouldn't want Christians going around calling the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, "Mo'."

No matter how we feel about someone, isn't it best to give them respect as persons and let Allah deal with them? I imagine we'll be better people for it.