Congregational dhikr

[DanyalSAC]

Asalaamu alaikum -

I've always been under the impression that congregational dhikr is an innovation - bid'ah - and that we should avoid it, even though many US masajid do it.

But I've recently been "rebutted" by one of my brothers who sent the following ahadith as "proof" that congregational dhikr is accepted & encouraged:

Hadith Qudsi: "Those that remember Me in their heart, I remember them in My heart; and those that remember Me in a gathering, I remember them (i.e. make mention of them) in a gathering better than theirs. (This can include recitation of Quran, Durood (Salat-o-Salaam) and other Dhiker Allah)

In Bukhari and Muslim: The Prophet (Peace be upon him) said that Allah has angels roaming the roads to find the people of dhikr, i.e. those who say La ltaha ltiabah and similar expressions, and when they find a group of people (Qaom) reciting dhikr, they call each other and encompass them in layers until the first heaven -- the location of which is in Allah's knowledge. (This is to say, an unlimited number of angels are going to be over that group).

Ibn 'Umar reported that the Prophet (Peace be upon him) said: "When you pass by the gardens of Paradise, avail yourselves of them." The Companions asked: "What are the gardens of Paradise, 0 Messenger of Allah?" He replied: "The circles of dhikr. There are roaming angels of Allah who go about looking for the circles of dhikr, and when they rind them they surround them closely." Tirmidhi narrated it (Hasan Gharib) and Ahmad.


So...I guess I should ask my shaykh this, but...is congregational dhikr bid'ah or no?

Thank you
D.

 

[Barbaria]

Salam 3alikoum
do you mean dhikr with other people in a group like with friends or familly, if that its very good as other people can learn and remind them about some ahadit.and you you have ajar for that.

Jazak allah kheir please let me know if am out of the subjet.

 

[DanyalSAC]

Salam 3alikoum
do you mean dhikr with other people in a group like with friends or familly, if that its very good as other people can learn and remind them about some ahadit.and you you have ajar for that.

Jazak allah kheir please let me know if am out of the subjet.

I guess I always considered "congregational dhikr" to mean they're reciting or chanting the Alhamdulillah/SubhanuAllah/Allahu Akbar in unison. Maybe I'm wrong.

 

[BrotherInIslam7]

:salam2:

yes please, ask your shaykh for a detailed answer. I would like to share this :-

‘Abd-Allaah ibn Mas’ood by al-Daarimi in his Sunan, according to which Abu Moosa al-Ash’ari said to ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Mas’ood: “O Abu ‘Abd al-Rahmaan, I have just seen in the mosque something new that I was not sure about, but I think I have not seen anything but something good, praise be to Allaah.” He said, “What was it?”

He said, “You will see it tomorrow.” He said, “I saw some people in the mosque sitting in circles waiting for the prayer. In every circle there was a man and in their hands were pebbles. He would say, ‘Say Allaahu akbar one hundred times,’ so they would say Allaahu akbar (takbeer) one hundred times. Then he would say, ‘Say Laa ilaaha ill-Allaah (tahleel) one hundred times, so they would say Laa ilaaha ill-Allaah one hundred times. Then he would say, ‘Say Subhaan Allaah (tasbeeh) one hundred times,’ and they would say Subhaan Allaah one hundred times.”

He said, “What did you say to them?”

He said, “I did not say anything to them. I was waiting for your opinion.”

He said, “Why did you not tell them to count their bad deeds and promise them that none of their good deeds would be lost?’ Then he went away and we went with him, until he came to one of those circles. He stood over them and said, “What is this that I see you doing?”

They said, “O Abu ‘Abd al-Rahmaan, these are pebbles with which we count the takbeer, tahleel and tasbeeh.”

He said, “Count your bad deeds, for I promise you that nothing of your good deeds will be lost. Woe to you, O ummah of Muhammad, how soon you have drifted into the way of doom even though the companions of your Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) are still alive amongst you, and his garments and the vessels he used are still not worn out or broken. By the One in Whose hand is my soul, either you are following a way that is more guided than the way of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), or you are starting a way that is the way of misguidance.”

They said, “By Allaah, O Abu ‘Abd al-Rahmaan, we did not intend anything but good.”

He said, “How many of those who intend good never attain it.”

Not everyone who seeks or intends good attains it and is guided to it. Not every act of worship is accepted, unless it is in accordance with the Sunnah of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).

This denunciation by Ibn Mas’ood (may Allaah be pleased with him) puts an end to the argument presented by innovators, because they always say, “What reason can there be not to recite dhikr, prayers and Qur’aan? We only intend good and to draw closer to Allaah.”

link :- http://islamqa.com/en/ref/11938/

 

[arzafar]

If they are specifying fixed numbers, place, times or even new words to their dhikrs which haven't been reported form the prophet (pbuh), then it's a bidah.

 

[Barbaria]

Many Thanks Brother yes i got it now. yes its better to ask a sheikh, i got this answer from islam today web site.

Jazak allah kheir

Question

Can we perform dhikr congregationally and in unison? If yes, when, where, how, and at what time? If no, what about the numerous hadîth stating thet the Companions used to remember Allah in groups? [For instance: Riyâd as-Salihîn of Imam al-Nawawî (Arabic & English) under the topic "On Remembrance in Company" (chapter 246, page 661)]

Answered bySheikh `Abd al-Rahmân al-Barrâk

When it comes to acts of worship, they have to be clearly and precisely established by the Qur’ân and Sunnah. Anything else is an anlawful innovation (bid`ah). The burden of proof, therefore, is upon the one claiming that some act is an act of worship. There is no authentic hadîth in existence that claims that we are supposed to perform dhikr in unison. Therefore, it is an innovation to do so. None of the hadîth you refer to indicate in any way that the Companions engaged in dhikr congregationally. They simply say that the Companions used to remember Allah in groups. This does not imply that they did so in concert with each other and with one voice. For example, Muslims in the mosque are together engaged in the remembrance of Allah, while in fact some of them are reading Qur’ân. Some may be engaged in teaching or learning the Qur’ân. Others may be praying while some may be praising Allah and remembering him using the forms of remembrance taught by the Prophet (peace be upon him). Some may be holding study sessions wherein they are indeed participating together in the remembrance of Allah, but not by chanting in unison.

 

[Munawar]

:salam2:
Good question Danyal. Here are my two cents:

I agree with this statement:

When it comes to acts of worship, they have to be clearly and precisely established by the Qur’ân and Sunnah. Anything else is an anlawful innovation (bid`ah). The burden of proof, therefore, is upon the one claiming that some act is an act of worship.

Chanting a fixed number of times say 100 times Allah-ho-Akbar sounds good but after some times say by next generation it will be concidered as a part of worship, and people will say "Hey, my father and my grandfather did it." And then the number 100 will become an important number, anybody who doesn't chant 100 times is doing great wrong, etc etc.

But lectures or talking about Allah (SWT) and His Messanger (PBUH) in front of others can also be called "dhikr in congregation" and this is actually encouraged, and it pleases Allah (SWT).

 

[samiha]

:salam2:

Brother Munawar is right. The ذكر - dhikr mentioned here is not specified by sitting around any circles chanting or the like, but rather means remembering and mentioning Allaah subhanwa ta'ala, as in a gathering of Islaamic knowledge.

If we look at the word dhikr itself it givings various meanings:

1. remind
2. invoke
3. remember
4. admonish
5. recollect
6. mention
7. recall

Also from the Arabic Lexicon: to remember/commemorate/recollect, study in order to remember, remind, bear in mind, mindful, mention/tell/relate, magnify/praise, admonish/warn

So it's not restricted to the actual adkhaar in the form of "Laa illaaha illallah / SubhanAllaah / Allaahu Akbar" etc but is vast in its meaning. And if we look towards the Sahabah and how they implemented this in their lives we see that it was not by chanting together, but dhikr as in coming together in the masaajid, in the houses, even in the roadside to remember Allaah subhana wa ta'ala, admonish each other about death, teach each other about the religion, and all of these are a form of dhikr which Allaah is pleased with and the angels attend and love.

Here's a full narration of a hadeeth I believe he used as evidence:

Abu Hurayrah said: "The Messenger of Allaah (Peace & Blessings of Allaah be upon Him) said: ‘Allah, be He be blessed and exalted, has angels who travel the highways seeking out the people of dhikr. When they find people remembering Allah, the Mighty and Majestic, they call out to one another, "Come to what you hunger for!" and they enfold them with their wings, stretching up to the lowest heaven. Their Lord asked then, and He knows better than them, "What are My slaves saying?" They say: "They are glorifying, magnifying, praising and extolling You." He asks, "Have they seen Me?" They say, "No, by Allaah, they have not seen You." He asks, "And how would it be if they saw Me?" They say, "They would be even more fervent and devoted in their praise and worship." He asks, "What are they asking me for?" They say, "They ask You for Paradise." He asks, "And have they seen it?" They say, "No, by Allaah, O Lord, they have not seen it." He asks, "And how would it be if they saw it?" They say: "They would be even more eager for it and they would beseech You even more earnestly." He asks, "And what do they seek My protection from?" They say, "From the Fire of Hell." He asks, "Have they seen it?" They say, "No, by Allaah, they have not seen it." He asks, "And how would it be if they saw it?" They say: "They would be even more afraid and anxious to escape it." Allah says: "You are My witnesses that I have forgiven them." One of the angels says: "So-and-so is not really one of them; he came (to the gathering) for some other reason." Allah says, "They were all in the gathering, and one of them will not be excluded (from forgiveness)."’"

(Reported by al-Bukhaari, al-Fath, no. 6408).

So therefore a gathering of remembrance includes extolling Allaah, asking for Jannah and seeking refuge from the Hellfire, nowhere though does it mention in these ahadeeth, nor in the actions of the Sahabah that it includes doing dhikr simultaneously or to a specific amount.

And Allaah knows best.

wasalam

 

[queenislam]

~Make dhikr our way of life!




:salam2:

MAKE reciting the dhikr /zikir a daily practice, Muslims were encouraged to dhikr / zikir as the habit can remind one to keep Allah SWT always in mind, and shows gratitude for the comforts and blessings that Allah swt has given.:ma:


Dhikr is praising Allah swt and usual coming from the holy qurán either doing it alone or congregational in any numbers of dhikr saying loud or silently is very encouraging~Saying one word from the qurán kalamullah(The word from Allah) is considered dhikr and this also part of ibadah and Allah swt give reward for doing dhikr.


some benefits of this practice.

Reciting the zikir, for instance, can prevent one from being ignorant and forgetful about Allah SWT.

It can also help strengthen the mind, heart and soul with regards to following Allah swt commands, and to refrain from committing acts that have been prohibited in Islam.

Regular recital of the zikir can also bring peace and tranquillity to the reader, as well as good fortune.

Those who make dhikr/zikir a part of their daily lives also receive forgiveness from Allah SWT.:ma:~

~Make dhikr our way of life!

:tti_sister:~~May Allah bless us all~Ãmin!

Take Care!
~Wassalam

 

[Seeking Allah's Mercy]

:salam2:
very interesting read mashallah keep it up everybody......everytime i'm here i learn something new........so are their hundreds and hundreds of angels above our heads.....this TTI is a place for congregational dhikr

this practice is common down here.ppl sit in circles doing dikhr with the pebbles and all.jazakallah khaira for everyones posts

may ALLAH accept our deeds.ameen

 

[abubaseer]

:salam2:

this practice is common down here.ppl sit in circles doing dikhr with the pebbles and all.jazakallah khaira for everyones posts

may ALLAH accept our deeds.ameen

:salam2: Sister

Thats bidah, please read the post from islam-qa in the thread.

 

[alathary]

Hudhayfah ibn al-Yaman said, "Every act of worship which the Companions did not do, do not do it."

 

[Abu Juwairiya]

Assalammu Alaikum everyone. In respect to congregations where there are rituals and practices not mentioned in the Sunnah such as chanting, singing, using pebbles, shouting and saying 'Arabic words' (not supported by Qur'an and Ahadith), these forms of 'dhikr' as some people call it is a Bid'ah, but those aspects of true 'dhikr' clearly spoken of and practiced by the Salaf are fine.

I remember travelling to Turkish masjids in Germany where the Imam and the congregants sang and chanted in unison (they actually sang!). When I asked for explanations and evidence for their authenticity, I was told it brings people closer to the Prophet (SAW).