how to answer the origin of god to an atheist?

mo_j90

Member
salam,

i was talkin to a friend i was trying to show him that evolution is false but this is what he said "so if god made the universe who made god? and who made whoever made god? and who made whoever made the one who made god? now you cant really say that god just "was" cos if god can just be there with no beginning then why cant the universe?"

how should i reply to that?
 

Zaynab123

Subhana Allah!
Asalamu alaykum
CONGRATULATING AN ATHEIST

Normally, when I meet an atheist, the first thing I like to do is to congratulate him and say, " My special congratulations to you", because most of the people who believe in God are doing blind belief - he is a Christian, because his father is a Christian; he is a Hindu, because his father is a Hindu; the majority of the people in the world are blindly following the religion of their fathers. An atheist, on the other hand, even though he may belong to a religious family, uses his intellect to deny the existence of God; what ever concept or qualities of God he may have learnt in his religion may not seem to be logical to him.

My Muslim brothers may question me, "Zakir, why are you congratulating an atheist?" The reason that I am congratulating an atheist is because he agrees with the first part of the Shahada i.e. the Islamic Creed, ‘La ilaaha’ - meaning ‘there is no God’. So half my job is already done; now the only part left is ‘il lallah’ i.e. ‘BUT ALLAH’ which I shall do Insha Allah. With others (who are not atheists) I have to first remove from their minds the wrong concept of God they may have and then put the correct concept of one true God.


LOGICAL CONCEPT OF GOD

My first question to the atheist will be: "What is the definition of God?" For a person to say there is no God, he should know what is the meaning of God. If I hold a book and say that ‘this is a pen’, for the opposite person to say, ‘it is not a pen’, he should know what is the definition of a pen, even if he does not know nor is able to recognise or identify the object I am holding in my hand. For him to say this is not a pen, he should at least know what a pen means. Similarly for an atheist to say ‘there is no God’, he should at least know the concept of God. His concept of God would be derived from the surroundings in which he lives. The god that a large number of people worship has got human qualities - therefore he does not believe in such a god. Similarly a Muslim too does not and should not believe in such false gods.

If a non-Muslim believes that Islam is a merciless religion with something to do with terrorism; a religion which does not give rights to women; a religion which contradicts science; in his limited sense that non-Muslim is correct to reject such Islam. The problem is he has a wrong picture of Islam. Even I reject such a false picture of Islam, but at the same time, it becomes my duty as a Muslim to present the correct picture of Islam to that non-Muslim i.e. Islam is a merciful religion, it gives equal rights to the women, it is not incompatible with logic, reason and science; if I present the correct facts about Islam, that non-Muslim may Inshallah accept Islam.

Similarly the atheist rejects the false gods and the duty of every Muslim is to present the correct concept of God which he shall Insha Allah not refuse.

(You may refer to my article, ‘Concept of God in Islam’, for more details)


QUR’AN AND MODERN SCIENCE

The methods of proving the existence of God with usage of the material provided in the ‘Concept of God in Islam’ to an atheist may satisfy some but not all.

Many atheists demand a scientific proof for the existence of God. I agree that today is the age of science and technology. Let us use scientific knowledge to kill two birds with one stone, i.e. to prove the existence of God and simultaneously prove that the Qur’an is a revelation of God.

If a new object or a machine, which no one in the world has ever seen or heard of before, is shown to an atheist or any person and then a question is asked, " Who is the first person who will be able to provide details of the mechanism of this unknown object? After little bit of thinking, he will reply, ‘the creator of that object.’ Some may say ‘the producer’ while others may say ‘the manufacturer.’ What ever answer the person gives, keep it in your mind, the answer will always be either the creator, the producer, the manufacturer or some what of the same meaning, i.e. the person who has made it or created it. Don’t grapple with words, whatever answer he gives, the meaning will be same, therefore accept it.

SCIENTIFIC FACTS MENTIONED IN THE QUR’AN: for details on this subject please refer to my book, ‘THE QUR’AN AND MODERN SCIENCE – COMPATIBLE OR INCOMPATIBLE?


THEORY OF PROBABILITY

In mathematics there is a theory known as ‘Theory of Probability’. If you have two options, out of which one is right, and one is wrong, the chances that you will chose the right one is half, i.e. one out of the two will be correct. You have 50% chances of being correct. Similarly if you toss a coin the chances that your guess will be correct is 50% (1 out of 2) i.e. 1/2. If you toss a coin the second time, the chances that you will be correct in the second toss is again 50% i.e. half. But the chances that you will be correct in both the tosses is half multiplied by half (1/2 x 1/2) which is equal to 1/4 i.e. 50% of 50% which is equal to 25%. If you toss a coin the third time, chances that you will be correct all three times is (1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2) that is 1/8 or 50% of 50% of 50% that is 12½%.

A dice has got six sides. If you throw a dice and guess any number between 1 to 6, the chances that your guess will be correct is 1/6. If you throw the dice the second time, the chances that your guess will be correct in both the throws is (1/6 x 1/6) which is equal to 1/36. If you throw the dice the third time, the chances that all your three guesses are correct is (1/6 x 1/6 x 1/6) is equal to 1/216 that is less than 0.5 %.

Let us apply this theory of probability to the Qur’an, and assume that a person has guessed all the information that is mentioned in the Qur’an which was unknown at that time. Let us discuss the probability of all the guesses being simultaneously correct.

At the time when the Qur’an was revealed, people thought the world was flat, there are several other options for the shape of the earth. It could be triangular, it could be quadrangular, pentagonal, hexagonal, heptagonal, octagonal, spherical, etc. Lets assume there are about 30 different options for the shape of the earth. The Qur’an rightly says it is spherical, if it was a guess the chances of the guess being correct is 1/30.

The light of the moon can be its own light or a reflected light. The Qur’an rightly says it is a reflected light. If it is a guess, the chances that it will be correct is 1/2 and the probability that both the guesses i.e the earth is spherical and the light of the moon is reflected light is 1/30 x 1/2 = 1/60.

Further, the Qur’an also mentions every living thing is made of water. Every living thing can be made up of either wood, stone, copper, aluminum, steel, silver, gold, oxygen, nitrogen, hydrogen, oil, water, cement, concrete, etc. The options are say about 10,000. The Qur’an rightly says that everything is made up of water. If it is a guess, the chances that it will be correct is 1/10,000 and the probability of all the three guesses i.e. the earth is spherical, light of moon is reflected light and everything is created from water being correct is 1/30 x 1/2 x 1/10,000 = 1/60,000 which is equal to about .0017%.



The Qur’an speaks about hundreds of things that were not known to men at the time of its revelation. Only in three options the result is .0017%. I leave it upto you, to work out the probability if all the hundreds of the unknown facts were guesses, the chances of all of them being correct guesses simultaneously and there being not a single wrong guess. It is beyond human capacity to make all correct guesses without a single mistake, which itself is sufficient to prove to a logical person that the origin of the Qur’an is Divine.


CREATOR IS THE AUTHOR OF THE QUR’AN

The only logical answer to the question as to who could have mentioned all these scientific facts 1400 years ago before they were discovered, is exactly the same answer initially given by the atheist or any person, to the question who will be the first person who will be able to tell the mechanism of the unknown object. It is the ‘CREATOR’, the producer, the Manufacturer of the whole universe and its contents. In the English language He is ‘God’, or more appropriate in the Arabic language, ‘ALLAH’.

QUR’AN IS A BOOK OF SIGNS AND NOT SCIENCE

Let me remind you that the Qur’an is not a book of Science, ‘S-C-I-E-N-C-E’ but a book of Signs ‘S-I-G-N-S’ i.e. a book of ayaats. The Qur’an contains more than 6,000 ayaats, i.e. ‘signs’, out of which more than a thousand speak about Science. I am not trying to prove that the Qur’an is the word of God using scientific knowledge as a yard stick because any yardstick is supposed to be more superior than what is being checked or verified. For us Muslims the Qur’an is the Furqan i.e. criteria to judge right from wrong and the ultimate yardstick which is more superior to scientific knowledge.

But for an educated man who is an atheist, scientific knowledge is the ultimate test which he believes in. We do know that science many a times takes ‘U’ turns, therefore I have restricted the examples only to scientific facts which have sufficient proof and evidence and not scientific theories based on assumptions. Using the ultimate yardstick of the atheist, I am trying to prove to him that the Qur’an is the word of God and it contains the scientific knowledge which is his yardstick which was discovered recently, while the Qur’an was revealed 1400 year ago. At the end of the discussion, we both come to the same conclusion that God though superior to science, is not incompatible with it.


SCIENCE IS ELIMINATING MODELS OF GOD BUT NOT GOD

Francis Bacon, the famous philosopher, has rightly said that a little knowledge of science makes man an atheist, but an in-depth study of science makes him a believer in God. Scientists today are eliminating models of God, but they are not eliminating God. If you translate this into Arabic, it is La illaha illal la, There is no god, (god with a small ‘g’ that is fake god) but God (with a capital ‘G’).

Surah Fussilat:

"Soon We will show them our signs in the (farthest) regions (of the earth), and in their own souls, until it becomes manifest to them that this is the Truth. Is it not enough that thy Lord doth witness all things?"

[Al-Quran 41:53]

Reference: http://www.irf.net/irf/comparativereligion/index.htm

insha Allah more to come from me....:) and i hope they help too

Wasalam
 

mo_j90

Member
there was a video about this on youtube and i showed it to him but hes still unchanged it had no affect on him, thanks anyway:)
 

Zaynab123

Subhana Allah!
don't worry, Allah subhana wata'ala guides whom he wills. there is nothing we can do for someone whose heart is dark....:)
 

mo_j90

Member
this is what i replied to him

" wen u think about crisps wheres its origin its from potatoes u cnt ask y it just is, wen u think about humans wer do they come from they come from adam and eve (or in ur case monkeys), if they came from monkeys then y did we evolve from monkeys and not cats? it just is it just was, and wen u think about the universe and how the planets wer formed u wud say it was formed by the big bang u cnt ask y coz it just was, and wen u ask the question who gave us life and who created everything u say god u cnt ask y coz it just i, god is the creator and wen u ask the question who created god it makes him a creation which then just blows everything out the window coz god is not a creation"

thats what i said, what do you think about that responce?
 

aelshamy

Junior Member
now you cant really say that god just "was" cos if god can just be there with no beginning then why cant the universe?"

how should i reply to that?


:salam2:

Dear brother,

This is wrong conclusion because he accepted that the universe has no beginning.
According to scientific concepts the universe existed for finite number of years. Also the TIME and SPACE existed, only, with the existence of the matter of the universe and its motion. So,when you think about Time and Space that they are finite and that the universe is contained within them you can understand that the universe also is finite and has a beginning. in other words the universe existed AFTER it hadn't existed ( I used 'after' but not with respect to time but with respect to cause/reason and the result). In other words it was created.
Now, as the time and space are finite it is very logic to understand that they are also created and that the creator has no beginning because he is not contained by them.
ٍAs we are human beings with limited abilities, we should expect that the creator is not like any thing in his universe " The Originator of the heavens and the earth; He made mates for you from among yourselves, and mates of the cattle too, multiplying you thereby; nothing like a likeness of Him; and He is the Hearing, the Seeing. " translation of quran 042.011

" He is the First and the Last, and the Outward and the Inward; and He is Knower of all things. " 057.003

The prophet :saw: said: " Allahuma you are the First so nothing before you and the Last so nothing after you and the Outward so nothing above you and the Inward so nothing beneath you "
 

hellbraker

Junior Member
Theologists says its Creation and not Evolution,Scientists say its Evolution and not Creation......and so the debate continues.God is continually creating.Does this mean that everything is evolving?
God creates somethimg out of "nothing".

["But how is this no-thing,this nothing,to be understood? In a purely static universe brought into existence, let us say, by an irresistable divine word of command, the "nothing" would probably have to be imagined as an actual "something", an empty receptacle, a great void that surrounds the boundaries of cosmic space. Into which the things that make up the universe,and indeed the whole universe,or the universe of universe might disappear forever, unless of course God kept then from falling in. But this is nonsense,strictly speaking. For we are now talking in terms of an empty space otside filled space, and that makes as liile sense as talking of time before time.Space-time (the new name for the universe),in Stephen Hawking's felicitous phrase, is both finite in extent and without boundaries.
What then?.....
For evolution is an activity that goes on, and not an account of a process that happened and happens by chance. It is an activity whereby God and creatures combine by God's creative initiative to bring about ever new forms of things, that is to say, transformation of things.Evolution is just a name for continuous creation. Aristotle recognized something something of this fact when he difined nature (physis).Nature, he wrote, is a name for that which things of a certain species have in common: human nature, for instance. So Aristotle defined nature as a form(of reality) that has within itself the possibility of movement, change, development." ]

Christianity and Creation .pg 33 & 34
James P.Mackey


This what God said in Revelations 1:8 in the Bible

"I am Alpha and Omega,the beginning and the ending,and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."
 

Zaynab123

Subhana Allah!
I'm not a Muslim but am investigating other religions.

I am a Christian if you wish to know.

I'm wondering about some of the things that you (Zaynab123) have written.

You wrote, "If a non-Muslim believes that Islam is a merciless religion with something to do with terrorism; a religion which does not give rights to women; a religion which contradicts science; in his limited sense that non-Muslim is correct to reject such Islam. The problem is he has a wrong picture of Islam. Even I reject such a false picture of Islam, but at the same time, it becomes my duty as a Muslim to present the correct picture of Islam to that non-Muslim i.e. Islam is a merciful religion, it gives equal rights to the women, it is not incompatible with logic, reason and science; if I present the correct facts about Islam, that non-Muslim may Inshallah accept Islam."

May I ask what your definition of mercy is?

May I ask what your definition of equal rights to women is?


In regards to the contradictions of science I don't think I'll go down that route right now. I've been reading up on the "miracles" of the Qur'an and been to Yahya's website and...see a HUGE amount of Qur'anic eisogesis. (reading into the text what is not there)

The Qur'an may say that the sun is a light and the moon a lamp, but the way that this is twisted by some Muslims to represent a science "miracle" is less than admirable. It's basically dishonest.

The Qur'an may say that the heavens are a canopy or blanket but to draw from that the Big Bang occurred, and expansionist nature of the universe, and the orbit patterns of planets....is sad. Very sad.

I read up on the miracles of 19...and the Qur'an and found the same thing again. Rules twisted to make "miracles" and even the founder of this concept used those same rules to show that he was "miraculously" referenced in the Qur'an. (He was later murdered by other Muslims)

So, rather than talk about the "miracles" of the Qur'an I would rather hear about mercy, equality, and the treatment of religious minorities in Islamic nations.

I await your response, Ivan.

peace be be unto u
sorry i will respond to u but right now am at school so the bell is about ring. god willing i will respond to u.
 

aelshamy

Junior Member
" Surely Allah upholds the heavens and the earth lest they come to naught; and if they should come to naught, there Is none who can uphold them after Him; surely He is the Forbearing, the Forgiving. " Translation of the meanings of Qura'n 035.041
 

I AM MUSLIM

New Member
I'm not a Muslim but am investigating other religions.

I am a Christian if you wish to know.

I'm wondering about some of the things that you (Zaynab123) have written.

You wrote, "If a non-Muslim believes that Islam is a merciless religion with something to do with terrorism; a religion which does not give rights to women; a religion which contradicts science; in his limited sense that non-Muslim is correct to reject such Islam. The problem is he has a wrong picture of Islam. Even I reject such a false picture of Islam, but at the same time, it becomes my duty as a Muslim to present the correct picture of Islam to that non-Muslim i.e. Islam is a merciful religion, it gives equal rights to the women, it is not incompatible with logic, reason and science; if I present the correct facts about Islam, that non-Muslim may Inshallah accept Islam."

May I ask what your definition of mercy is?

May I ask what your definition of equal rights to women is?


In regards to the contradictions of science I don't think I'll go down that route right now. I've been reading up on the "miracles" of the Qur'an and been to Yahya's website and...see a HUGE amount of Qur'anic eisogesis. (reading into the text what is not there)

The Qur'an may say that the sun is a light and the moon a lamp, but the way that this is twisted by some Muslims to represent a science "miracle" is less than admirable. It's basically dishonest.

The Qur'an may say that the heavens are a canopy or blanket but to draw from that the Big Bang occurred, and expansionist nature of the universe, and the orbit patterns of planets....is sad. Very sad.

I read up on the miracles of 19...and the Qur'an and found the same thing again. Rules twisted to make "miracles" and even the founder of this concept used those same rules to show that he was "miraculously" referenced in the Qur'an. (He was later murdered by other Muslims)

So, rather than talk about the "miracles" of the Qur'an I would rather hear about mercy, equality, and the treatment of religious minorities in Islamic nations.

I await your response, Ivan.
Dear evan though you did not ask the question to me i want to answer your question about mercy in islam and some (not all because no much time) scientific facts mentioned in the holy quran about mercy: chapter 9 verse 6 -''if one amongst the pagans ask thee for asylum,grant it to him. So that he may hear the word of allah;and then escort him to where he can be secure,that is because they are men without knowledge''. this chapter of quran was revealed to the prophet(pbuh) from allah when few tribes of pagan arabs(non muslims) broke their covenant with the muslims by wrongfully killing few muslim groups even though they signed a contract of peace. so the chapter 9 verse 1 to 7 says dont wage war against those pagan arab tribes who have not broken the covenant but attack those who have broken the covenant, but if the pagans ask for shelter even during the war quran tells to provide shelter even there ,now tell me which religion of the world other than islam tells not only to leave your enemy alive even during war but to take him to secure place if he asks for refuge.also, you mentioned that few muslim countries ill treat other religions who are minorities in their countries, so its clear to me that you want to judge islam by looking at the muslims and not by looking into the holy quran and the sayings of prophet(pbuh) which is so wrong and incorrect. Also there are many other verses in the holy quran which speak about peace but for now i do not have much time and i know this post i becoming to long but i like to mention few scientific fact in the quran before i finish
1.about creation of the universe:chapter 21 verse 30 ''do not the unbelievers see that the heavens and earth were joined together and we cloud then asunder '' this is hundred percent compatible with the big bang theory put forth in 1927 which says the entire universe was a single mass then a big bang occured breaking up the single mass into various galaxies. 2.importance of mountains the geologists will tell you about the phenomenon of folding which says the earth crust is very thin but the act as stakes and prevent it from shaking which is hundred percent compatible with quran which says in chapter 21 verse 31 ''we have set no the earth , mountains standing firm lest it would shake''there are many more verses in the quran that are scientific but sorry my typing is not very fast so i'll mention them ''if needed'' some other time.
 

Zaynab123

Subhana Allah!
Asalamu alaykum(peace be unto u)

ok, now lets take it step by step since i'm too busy.

i got this from a source, coz i'm too busy to write, hope it helps u since its not my own words.

THE STATUS OF WOMEN IN ISLAM

The status of woman in Islam constitutes no problem. The attitude of the Qur'an and the early Muslims bear witness to the fact that woman is, at least, as vital to life as man himself, and that she is not inferior to him nor is she one of the lower species. Had it not been for the impact of foreign cultures and alien influences, this question would have never arisen among the Muslims. The status of woman was taken for granted to be equal to that of man. It was a matter of course, a matter of fact, and no one, then, considered it as a problem at all.


In order to understand what Islam has established for woman, there is no need to deplore her plight in the pre-Islamic era or in the modern world of today. Islam has given woman rights and privileges which she has never enjoyed under other religious or constitutional systems. This can be understood when the matter is studied as a whole in a comparative manner, rather than partially. The rights and responsibilities of a woman are equal to those of a man but they are not necessarily identical with them. Equality and sameness are two quite different things. This difference is understandable because man and woman are not identical but they are created equals. With this distinction in mind, There is no problem. It is almost impossible to find even two identical men or women.


This distinction between equality and sameness is of paramount importance. Equality is desirable, just, fair; but sameness is not. People are not created identical but they are created equals. With this distinction in mind, there is no room to imagine that woman is inferior to man. There is no ground to assume that she is less important than he just because her rights are not identically the same as his. Had her status been identical with his, she would have been simply a duplicate of him, which she is not. The fact that Islam gives her equal rights - but not identical - shows that it takes her into due consideration, acknowledges her, and recognizes her independent personality.


It is not the tone of Islam that brands woman as the product of the devil or the seed of evil. Nor does the Qur'an place man as the dominant lord of woman who has no choice but to surrender to his dominance. Nor was it Islam that introduced the question of whether or not woman has any soul in her. Never in the history of Islam has any Muslim doubted the human status of woman or her possession of soul and other fine spiritual qualities. Unlike other popular beliefs, Islam does not blame Eve alone for the First Sin. The Qur'an makes it very clear that both Adam and Eve were tempted; that they both sinned; that God's pardon was granted to both after their repentance; and that God addressed them jointly. (2:35-36); 7:19, 27; 20:117-123). In fact the Qur'an gives the impression that Adam was more to blame for that First Sin from which emerged prejudice against woman and suspicion of her deeds. But Islam does not justify such prejudice or suspicion because both Adam and Eve were equally in error, and if we are to blame Eve we should blame Adam as much or even more.


The status of woman in Islam is something unique, something novel, something that has no similarity in any other system. If we look to the Eastern Communist world or to the democratic nations, we find that woman is not really in a happy position. Her status is not enviable. She has to work so hard to live, and sometimes she may be doing the same job that a man does but her wage is less than his. She enjoys a kind of liberty which in some cases amounts to libertinism. To get to where she is nowadays, woman struggled hard for decades and centuries. To gain the right of learning and the freedom of work and earning, she had to offer painful sacrifices and give up many of her natural rights. To establish her status as a human being possessing a soul, she paid heavily. Yet in spite of all these costly sacrificeqs and painful struggles, she has not acquired what Islam has established by a Divine decree for the Muslim woman.


The rights of woman of modern times were not granted voluntarily or out of kindness to the female. Modern woman reached her present position by force, and not through natural processes or mutual consent or Divine teachings. She had to force her way, and various circumstances came to her aid. Shortage of manpower during wars, pressure of economic needs and requirements of industrial developments forced woman to get out of her home - to work, to learn, to struggle for her livelihood, to appear as an equal to man, to run her race in the course of life side by side with him. She was forced by circumstances and in turn she forced herself through and acquired her new status. Whether all women were pleased with these circumstances being on their side, and whether they are happy and satisfied with the results of this course is a different matter. But the fact remains that whatever rights modern woman enjoys fall short of those of her Muslim counterpart. What Islam has established for woman is that which suits her nature, gives her full security and protects her against disgraceful circumstances and uncertain channels of life. We do not need here to elaborate on the status of modern woman and the risks she runs to make her living or establish herself. We do not even need to explore the miseries and setbacks that encircle her as a result of the so-called rights of woman. Nor do we intend to manipulate the situation of many unhappy homes which break because of the very "freedom" and "rights" of which modern woman is proud. Most women today exercise the right of freedom to go out independently, to work and earn, to pretend to be equal to man, but this, sadly enough, is at the expense of their families. This all known and obvious. What is not known is the status of woman in Islam. An attempt will be made in the following passages to sum up the attitude of Islam with regard to woman.




Woman is recognized by Islam as a full and equal partner of man in the procreation of humankind. He is the father; she is the mother, and both are essential for life. Her role is not less vital than his. By this partnership she has an equal share in every aspect; she is entitled to equal rights; she undertakes equal responsibilities, and in her there are as many qualities and as much humanity as there are in her partner. To this equal partner- ship in the reproduction of human kind God says:


O mankind! Verily We have created your from a single (pair) of a male and a female,m and made you into nations and tribes that you may know each other... (Qur'an, 49:13; cf. 4:1).



She is equal to man in bearing personal and common responsibilities and in receiving rewards for her deeds. She is acknowledged as an independent personality, in possession of human qualities and worthy of spiritual aspirations. Her human nature is neither inferior to nor deviant from that of man. Both are members of one another. God says:

And their Lord has accepted (their prayers) and answered them (saying): 'Never will I cause to be lost the work of any of you, be he male or female; you are members, one of another... (3:195; cf 9:71;33:35-36;66:19-21).



She is equal to man in the pursuit of education and knowledge. When Islam enjoins the seeking of knowledge upon Muslims, it makes no distinction between man and woman. Almost fourteen centuries ago, Muhammad declared that the pursuit of knowledge is incumbent on every Muslim male and female. This declaration was very clear and was implemented by Muslims throughout history.

She is entitled to freedom of expression as much as man is. Her sound opinions are taken into consideration and cannot be disregarded just because she happen to belong to the female sex. It is reported in the Qur'an and history that woman not only expressed her opinion freely but also argued and participated in serious discussions with the Prophet himself as well as with other Muslim leaders (Qur'an, 58:1-4; 60:10-12). Besides there were occasions when Muslim women expressed their views on legislative matters of public interest, and stood in opposition to the Caliphs, who then accepted the sound arguments of these women. A specific example took place during the Califate of Umar Ibn al-Khattab.

Historical records show that women participated in public life with the early Muslims, especially in times of emergencies. Women used to accompany the Muslim armies engaged in battles to nurse the wounded, prepare supplies, serve the warriors, and so on. They were not shut behind iron bars or considered worthless creatures and deprived of souls.

Islam grants woman equal rights to contract, to enterprise, to earn and possess independently. Her life, her property, her honor are as sacred as those of man. If she commits any offense, her penalty is no less or more than of man's in a similar case. If she is wronged or harmed, she gets due compensations equal to what a man in her position would get (2:178;4:45, 92-93).

Islam does not state these rights in a statistical form and then relax. It has taken all measures to safeguard them and put them into practice as integral articles of Faith. It never tolerates those who are inclined to prejudice against woman or discrimination between man and woman. Time and again, the Qur'an reproaches those who used to believe woman to be inferior to man (16:57-59, 62; 42:47-59; 43:15-19; 53:21-23).

Apart from recognition of woman as an independent human being acknowledged as equally essential for the survival of humanity, Islam has given her a share of inheritance. Before Islam, she was not only deprived of that share but was herself considered as property to be inherited by man. Out of that transferable property Islam made an heir, acknowledging the inherent human qualifies in woman. Whether she is a wife or mother, a sister or daughter, she receives a certain share of the deceased kin's property, a share which depends on her degree of relationship to the deceased and the number of heirs. This share is hers, and no one can take it away or disinherit her. Even if the deceased wishes to deprive her by making a will to other relations or in favor of any other cause, the Law will not allow him to do so. Any proprietor is permitted to make his will within the limit of one-third of his property, so he may not affect the rights of his heirs, men and women. In the case of inheritance, the question of quality and sameness is fully applicable. In principle, both man and woman are equally entitled to inherit the property of the deceased relations but the portions they get may vary. In some instances man receives two shares whereas woman gets one only. This no sign of giving preference or supremacy to man over woman.The reasons why man gets more in these particular instances may be classified as follows:
First man, is the person solely responsible for the complete maintenance of his wife, his family and any other needy relations. It is his duty by Law to assume all financial responsibilities and maintain his dependents adequately. It is also his duty to contribute financially to all good causes in his society. All financial burdens are borne by him alone.

Secondly, in contrast, woman has no financial responsibilities whatsoever except very little of her personal expenses, the high luxurious things that she likes to have. She is financially secure and provided for. If she is a wife, her husband is the provider; if she is a mother, it is the son; if she is a daughter, it is the father; if she is a sister; it is the brother, and so on. If she has no relations on whom she can depend, then there is no question of inheritance because there is nothing to inherit and there is no one to bequeath anything to her. However, she will not be left to starve, maintenance of such a woman is the responsibility of the society as a whole, the state. She may be given aid or a job to earn her living, and whatever money she makes will be hers. She is not responsible for the maintenance of anybody else besides herself. If there is a man in her position, he would still be responsible for his family and possibly any of his relations who need his help. So, in the hardest situation her financial responsibility is limited, while his is unlimited.

Thirdly, when a woman gets less than a man does, she is not actually deprived of anything that she has worked for. The property inherited is not the result of her earning or her endeavors. It is something coming to them from a neutral source, something additional or extra. It is something that neither man or woman struggled for. It is a sort of aid, and any aid has to be distributed according to the urgent needs and responsibilities especially when the distribution is regulated by the Law of God.

Now, we have a male heir, on one side, burdened with all kinds of financial responsibilities and liabilities. We have, on the other side, a female heir with no financial responsibilities at all or at most with very little of it. In between we have some property and aid to redistribute by way of inheritance. If we deprive the female completely, it would be unjust to her because she is related to the deceased. Likewise, if we always give her a share equal to the man's, it would be unjust to him. So, instead of doing injustice to either side, Islam gives the man a larger portion of the inherited property to help him to meet his family needs and social responsibilities. At the same time, Islam has not forgotten her altogether, but has given her a portion to satisfy her very personal needs. In fact, Islam in this respect is being more kind to her than to him. Here we can say that when taken as a whole the rights of woman are equal to those of man although not necessarily identical (see Qur'an, 4:11-14, 176).


In some instances of bearing witness to certain civil contracts, two men are required or one man and two women. Again, this is no indication of the woman being inferior to man. It is a measure of securing the rights of the contracting parties, because woman as a rule, is not so experienced in practical life as man. This lack of experience may cause a loss to any party in a given contract. So the Law requires that at least two women should bear witness with one man. if a woman of the witness forgets something, the other one would remind her. Or if she makes an error, due to lack of experience, the other would help to correct her. This is a precautionary measure to guarantee honest transactions and proper dealings between people. In fact, it gives woman a role to play in civil life and helps to establish justice. At any rate, lack of experience in civil life does not necessarily mean that women is inferior to man in her status. Every human being lacks one thing or another, yet no one questions their human status (2:282).

Woman enjoys certain privileges of which man is deprived. She is exempt from some religious duties, i.e., prayers and fasting, in her regular periods and at times of confinement. She is exempt from all financial liabilities. As a mother, she enjoys more recognition and higher honor in the sight of God (31:14-15;46:15). The Prophet acknowledged this honor when he declared that Paradise is under the feet of the mothers. She is entitled to three-fourths of the son's love and kindness with one-fourth left for their father. As a wife she is entitled to demand of her prospective husband a suitable dowry that will be her own. She is entitled to complete provision and total maintenance by the husband. She does not have to work or share with her husband the family expenses. She is free to retain, after marriage, whatever she possessed before it, and the husband has no right whatsoever to any of her belongings. As a daughter or sister she is entitled to security and provision by the father and brother respectively. That is her privilege. If she wishes to work or be self-supporting and participate in handling the family responsibilities, she is quite free to do so, provided her integrity and honor are safeguarded.

The standing of woman in prayers behind man does not indicate in any sense that she is inferior to him. Woman, as already mentioned, is exempt from attending congregational prayers which are obligatory on man. But if she does attend she stands in separate lines made up of women exclusively . This is a regulation of discipline in prayers, and not a classification of importance. In men's rows the head of state stands shoulder to shoulder to the pauper. Men of the highest ranks in society stand in prayer side by side with other men of the lowest ranks. The order of lines in prayers is introduced to help every one to concentrate in his meditation. It is very important because Muslim prayers are not simply chanting or the sing-a-song type. They involve actions, motions, standing, bowing, prostration, etc. So if men mix with women in the same lines, it is possible that something disturbing or distracting may happen. The mind will become occupied by something alien to prayer and derailed from the clear path of mediation. The result will be a loss of the purpose of prayers, besides an offense of adultery committed by the eye, because the eye-by looking at forbidden things - can be guilty of adultery as much as the heart itself. Moreover, no Muslim man or woman is allowed during prayers to touch the body of another person of the opposite sex. If men and women stand side by side in prayer they cannot avoid touching each other. Furthermore, when a woman is praying in front of a man or beside him, it is very likely that any part of her dressed body may become uncovered after a certain motion of bowing or prostrating. The man's eye may happen to be looking at the uncovered part, with the result that she will be embarrassed and he will be exposed to distraction or possibly evil thoughts. So, to avoid any embarrassment and distraction to help concentrate on mediation and pure thoughts, to maintain harmony and order among worshippers, to fulfill the true purposes of prayers, Islam has ordained the organization of rows, whereby men stand in front lines, and women behind the children.Anyone with some knowledge of the nature and purpose of Muslim prayerscan readily understand the wisdom of organizing the lines of worshippers in this manner.

The Muslim woman is always associated with an old tradition known as the "veil". It is Islamic that the woman should beautify herself with the veil of honor, dignity, chastity, purity and integrity. She should refrain from all deeds and gestures that might stir the passions of people other than her legitimate husband or cause evil suspicion of her morality. She is warned not to display her charms or expose her physical attractions before strangers. The veil which she must put on is one that can save her soul from weakness, her mind from indulgence, her eyes from lustful looks, and her personality from demoralization. Islam is most concerned with the integrity of woman, with the safeguarding of her morals and morale and with the protection of her character and personality (cf. Qur'an, 24:30-31).

By now it is clear that the status of woman in Islam is unprecedentedly high and realistically suitable to her nature. Her rights and duties are equal to those of man but not necessarily or absolutely identical with them. If she is deprived of one thing in some aspect, she is fully compensated for it with more things in many other aspects. The fact that she belongs to the female sex has no bearing on her human status or independent personality, and it is no basis for justification of prejudice against her or injustice to her person. Islam gives her as much as is required of her. Her rights match beautifully with her duties. The balance between rights and duties is maintained, and no side overweighs the other. The whole status of woman is given clearly in the Qur'anic verse which may be translated as follows:

And women shall have rights similar to the rights against them, according to what is equitable; but man have a degree (of advantage as in some cases of inheritance) over them (2:228).


This degree is not a title of supremacy or an authorization of dominance over her. It is to correspond with the extra responsibilities of man and give him some compensation for his unlimited liabilities. The above mentioned verse is always interpreted in the light of another (4:34).


It is these extra responsibilities that give man a degree over woman in some economic aspects. It is not a higher degree in humanity or in character. Nor is it a dominance of one over the other or suppression of one by the other. It is a distribution of God's abundance according to the needs of the nature of which God is the Maker. And He knows best what is good for woman and what is good for man. God is absolutely true when He declares:


O mankind! reverence your Guardian-Lord, Who created you
from a single person, and created of like nature his mate,
and from them twain scattered (like seeds) countless men and
women (4:1).
source:http://www.jannah.org/sisters/statuswomen.html
quran:www.quranexplorer.com
 

Zaynab123

Subhana Allah!
Dear evan though you did not ask the question to me i want to answer your question about mercy in islam and some (not all because no much time) scientific facts mentioned in the holy quran about mercy: chapter 9 verse 6 -''if one amongst the pagans ask thee for asylum,grant it to him. So that he may hear the word of allah;and then escort him to where he can be secure,that is because they are men without knowledge''. this chapter of quran was revealed to the prophet(pbuh) from allah when few tribes of pagan arabs(non muslims) broke their covenant with the muslims by wrongfully killing few muslim groups even though they signed a contract of peace. so the chapter 9 verse 1 to 7 says dont wage war against those pagan arab tribes who have not broken the covenant but attack those who have broken the covenant, but if the pagans ask for shelter even during the war quran tells to provide shelter even there ,now tell me which religion of the world other than islam tells not only to leave your enemy alive even during war but to take him to secure place if he asks for refuge.also, you mentioned that few muslim countries ill treat other religions who are minorities in their countries, so its clear to me that you want to judge islam by looking at the muslims and not by looking into the holy quran and the sayings of prophet(pbuh) which is so wrong and incorrect. Also there are many other verses in the holy quran which speak about peace but for now i do not have much time and i know this post i becoming to long but i like to mention few scientific fact in the quran before i finish
1.about creation of the universe:chapter 21 verse 30 ''do not the unbelievers see that the heavens and earth were joined together and we cloud then asunder '' this is hundred percent compatible with the big bang theory put forth in 1927 which says the entire universe was a single mass then a big bang occured breaking up the single mass into various galaxies. 2.importance of mountains the geologists will tell you about the phenomenon of folding which says the earth crust is very thin but the act as stakes and prevent it from shaking which is hundred percent compatible with quran which says in chapter 21 verse 31 ''we have set no the earth , mountains standing firm lest it would shake''there are many more verses in the quran that are scientific but sorry my typing is not very fast so i'll mention them ''if needed'' some other time.

Asalamu alaykum wr wb

jazak Allahu khayra brother for taking ur time to explain this.......:)

~your sister in ISLAM:hijabi:~
 

aelshamy

Junior Member
Thank you for responding so quickly and peace unto you and your family as well.

I was just re-reading your post and found something else that you said that I am wondering about.

You stated, "At the time when the Qur’an was revealed, people thought the world was flat, there are several other options for the shape of the earth. It could be triangular, it could be quadrangular, pentagonal, hexagonal, heptagonal, octagonal, spherical, etc. Lets assume there are about 30 different options for the shape of the earth. The Qur’an rightly says it is spherical, if it was a guess the chances of the guess being correct is 1/30.

The light of the moon can be its own light or a reflected light. The Qur’an rightly says it is a reflected light. If it is a guess, the chances that it will be correct is 1/2 and the probability that both the guesses i.e the earth is spherical and the light of the moon is reflected light is 1/30 x 1/2 = 1/60."



Now...as to the Earth being flat....according to NASA...."it has actually been known that the Earth was round since the time of the ancient Greeks. I believe that it was Pythagoras who first proposed that the Earth was round sometime around 500 B.C. He based his idea on the fact that he showed the Moon must be round by observing the shape of the terminator (the line between the part of the Moon in light and the part of the Moon in the dark) as it moved through its orbital cycle. Pythagoras reasoned that if the Moon was round, then the Earth must be round as well. After that, sometime between 500 B.C. and 430 B.C., a fellow called Anaxagoras determined the true cause of solar and lunar eclipses - and then the shape of the Earth's shadow on the Moon during a lunar eclipse was also used as evidence that the Earth was round.

Around 350 BC, the great Aristotle declared that the Earth was a sphere (based on observations he made about which constellations you could see in the sky as you travelled further and further away from the equator) and during the next hundred years or so, Aristarchus and Eratosthenes actually measured the size of the Earth!"

So the shape of the Earth and much more was known FAR before the time of Mohammad. The Qur'an was not saying anything new or unknown.

In regards to the MOON and the Qur'an...I made a slight mistake...I got the words reversed! I said that the Qur'an said the Sun was a light and the Moon a lamp. I then went and did an online check of the word "lamp" and it states that a LAMP is, "any of various devices furnishing artificial light .

I was thinking about that and that the moon DOES furnish artificial light because it makes none of its own light. It reflects the light from the sun.

Well, I went back to the Qur'an and re-checked what it says. It turns out that it does not say that the moon is a LAMP (furnishing artificial light) it says that SUN is a lamp and the MOON is a light. (Sura 10:5)

Zaynab123 the SUN does NOT produce artificial light, it is its own source of light, and is not a lamp. The MOON is not a light...it has no source of light...it reflects the light of the sun.

So, again I think that when anyone tries to manipulate the text to say what it does not say...that person is being dishonest. (Don't worry! I do not think you did this! I'm addressing the Islamic website that I went to about the "miracles" of the Moon and Islam. It is wrong. The science is not there. It is not academically honest to say these things.)

Our conversation should remain with the Qur'anic view of mercy, and equality of women and religious minorities in Islam.

Thanks again for your quick reply.

Ivan.

Hello Ivan, although this is not the topic of the thread here is link about mercy in Islam. I think it is better to make a separate thread about the topics you are interested in

http://www.islamonline.net/english/introducingislam/Worship/Heart/article10.shtml
 

Zaynab123

Subhana Allah!
The Qur'an may say that the heavens are a canopy or blanket but to draw from that the Big Bang occurred, and expansionist nature of the universe, and the orbit patterns of planets....is sad. Very sad.

I read up on the miracles of 19...and the Qur'an and found the same thing again. Rules twisted to make "miracles" and even the founder of this concept used those same rules to show that he was "miraculously" referenced in the Qur'an. (He was later murdered by other Muslims)

So, rather than talk about the "miracles" of the Qur'an I would rather hear about mercy, equality, and the treatment of religious minorities in Islamic nations.

I await your response, Ivan.

this part makes me folks on ur main point.

the first thing i would do is to help u understand islam. ISLAM means peac and submission to the one god. so rather than studying muslims u should study islam. there is big difference btw islam and muslims. muslim is the follower of islam. when i say "i'm muslim" i may not be perfect. u don't know that, right? nor do other muslims know who i really am. god knows whats on my mind and how i truly follow islam. lots of people called them selfes muslims yet they follow the actions of the non-muslims. but i'm not the judge of what they do. all i can do is tell them what is right.

With Islam, mercy was given a deeper meaning that created a vital aspect in the life of every Muslim, which he is rewarded by God (Allah) for showing.

let me give u alittle example. lets say that i live in the middle east or muslim country, which ever is more clear for. so i went to muslim country and told them about how the life in America is. i don't if u live in america but i do. so u know how it is. they are lots of crime, such as raping, murder, a woman putting her child in the microwave. a man killing his pregnant wife, all the racism btw balcks and whites, it doesn't exists alot though. the "law" stops them. that the only thing that stops racism.

so anyways they would never ever come here, would they? the only reason why people hear alot about islam is beacouse America controls all the media. and off course their main point is to cover the truth from poeple.(yeah thats right)

my advice to u is to take adavantage over the little time u have and study islam and not muslims. coz everyone will be judged of their own sins. islam is the only religion that guarantees u hell. i mean u don't go to heaven for saying u r a muslim and yet doing the wrong actions. unless by the mercy of god(ALLAH) coz he is the mercifull. we couldn't live without the mercy of Allah(God) and we should be thankful for all that he has given to us. everyone lives by the mercy of ALLAH(Gog) may he be christian,muslim,hindu,atheist etc....

this site can help u alot coz we have lots of knowledgable muslims both male and female. always ask questions and am glad u did it now.thnx

peac....:hijabi:
 

Aapa

Mirajmom
Salaam,

Concerning women in Islam. I am by no means an authority. I am a Muslim woman. I spent many a year questioning and seeking and I was a women's libber back in the day. My response is from living and experincing life.

Islam enables a woman to strive. We are given examples of the lives of pious women. Women are able to conduct business. We are able to strive to seek knowledge. We are given the responsibility of raising children. We can own property. We can make decisions and we are the first to give direction to our husbands. We are given the blessing of pleasing our husbands and thus learning to obey the commands of Allah subhana talla.

This is a choice. This is what pleases us. There are many ayats in the Holy Quran that remind us of our rights and duties. There is no compulsion. We either decide to follow the path or we live our lives to please ourselves and our lower natures.

The greatest gift we are given is knowing that we will be accountable to Allah subhana talla on the Day of Judgement. We are thereby the counterparts of men. No man can intercede for me on the Day that is Promised. That initself is sufficient for me.

I pray this makes some sense to you.
 

nori suja'i

Junior Member
"And Allah turned back the unbelievers for (all) their fury: no advantage did they gain; and enough Is Allah for the believers in their fight. And Allah Is Full Of Strength, Able To enforce His Will.

Soorah Ahzab/Ayaat 25.
 

nori suja'i

Junior Member
i beg ur pardon just to add that it was galileo galilei who claimed that this world is rounded yet the ignorant ppl who control the cntry put him under hse arrest till he became blind in 1637.

he did claimed that a body is moving freely, Something must happen to stop it or to make it change direction.
MashaAllah he believed in the Super Power of The Almighty Allah. he is somebody not only to us but could be to Allah, who knows.
 

Munawar

Striving for Paradise
So the shape of the Earth and much, much more was known FAR before the time of Mohammad. The Qur'an was not saying anything new or unknown at the time it was written.

Check for yourself.

Ivan.

Dear Brother,
Actually some of the cave men also studied the movements of Sun and the Moon and so they determined that the earth is round like an orange and so they painted this on the wall of their caves many tens of thousands of years ago.

I thought to post something funny because of what you have been posting. :lol:

You know the strange thing is that why Galileo and others who worked so hard and then punished by their own people for declaring such things when all these things were already known to the mankind. They were telling the people something they already knew. What a waste of time and energy. :D

All I know is that in the time of Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) the Arabs had many beliefs about the heavans and the earth. One such funny belief was that mountains were holding the sky up, and of course that the earth was flat, actually he should be promoting this idea in the Quran but he didn't. Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) grew up in that environment and he never studied anything. He didn't even know how to read or write. So how could he know anything about universe even if we believe for a minute that someone has done some declaration in Greece etc specially since this was not a common knowledge anywhere near him. How could he always put correct things in the Quran?

Even if what you are saying is true... this was just a theory and other than a few people no one belived it, just like today very few people know about the String Theory despite we have so fast and mass communication facilities available.
I am sorry to say that your is a mute point my friend.
 

aelshamy

Junior Member
So, rather than talk about the "miracles" of the Qur'an I would rather hear about mercy, equality, and the treatment of religious minorities in Islamic nations.

Hello Ivan,
Instead of being so critic about Islam why don't you see the history of Christianity - of course after it deviated from the right path (as we Muslims believe) please watch this vedio

[yt]pVR72P8xzTs[/yt]
 

Zaynab123

Subhana Allah!
Asalamu alaykum wr wb

Quran and science

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The Qur'an Leads The Way To Science

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