Trying to Answer a Question from a Christian friend.....HELP!!!

[dianek]

In Instant Messaging we wrote:
DaniYM (4:18:54 PM): what about this? Jesus Christ fulfilled every prophecy written about the coming Messiah --- over three hundred of them! Would that have been possible had He not been the Son of God?
DaniYM (4:19:05 PM): Here is a short listing of some of the hundreds of prophecies concerning Christ:

Linage Genesis 3:15; 9:26: 22:18; 26:4; 28:14; 49:10; 2 & Samual 7:12-16
Son of God Psalm 2:6-7
Virgin birth Isaiah 7:14
Birthplace Micah 5:2
Piercing of side Zechariah 12:10
Darkness Psalm 22:2
Vinegar Psalm 69:21
Mocking Psalm 22:6-8
Nakedness Psalm 22:17
Gambling for clothes Psalm 22:18
Unbroken bones Psalm 34:20
Burial Isaiah 53:9
Resurrection Psalm 16:10; Hosea 6:2; Psalm 30:3,9; Isaiah 53:10
Assention to right hand of God Psalm 110:1; 68:18; Proverbs 30:4; 24:3-10

Come on you knowledgeable ones, help me respond! Thanks!

 

[Optimist]

Salam Diane

First I'd like to say masha'Allah ... you seem to have carried the burden of spreading Daw'a and want to get involved in Ummah's affair (if you dont understand any term let me know). You sound like a truely sincere person and I hope you will have lots to give for Islam in future.

About your question:

1. Muslims do believe that Jesus was the Messiah !! There is no point proving this to us. The word "Maseeh" in Arabic which is used to describe Jesus means The Messiah.

These are Quranic verses (3:45-51):

"(Remember) when the angels said: "O Maryam (Mary)! Verily, Allâh gives you the glad tidings of a Word ("Be!" - and he was! i.e. 'Isâ (Jesus) the son of Maryam (Mary)) from Him, his name will be the Messiah 'Isâ (Jesus), the son of Maryam (Mary), held in honor in this world and in the Hereafter, and will be one of those who are near to Allâh [45]. He will speak to the people in the cradle and in manhood, and he will be one of the righteous. She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man has touched me." He said: "So (it will be) for Allâh creates what He wills. When He has decreed something, He says to it only: "Be!" - and it is [46]. She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man has touched me." He said: "So (it will be) for Allâh creates what He wills. When He has decreed something, He says to it only: "Be!" - and it is [47]. And He (Allâh) will teach him ('Isâ (Jesus)) the Book and Al-Hikmah (i.e. the Sunnah, the faultless speech of the Prophets, wisdom), (and) the Taurât (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel) [48]. And will make him ('Isâ (Jesus)) a Messenger to the Children of Israel (saying): "I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, that I design for you out of clay, a figure like that of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allâh's Leave; and I heal him who was born blind, and the leper, and I bring the dead to life by Allâh's Leave. And I inform you of what you eat, and what you store in your houses. Surely, therein is a sign for you, if you believe [49]. And I have come confirming that which was before me of the Taurât (Torah), and to make lawful to you part of what was forbidden to you, and I have come to you with a proof from your Lord. So fear Allâh and obey me [50]. Truly! Allâh is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him (Alone). This is the Straight Path [51]."

So he IS the Messiah.

2. Why does he need to be the son of God ? I don't see the link.

 

[Amir_of_spain]

fulfillment of prophecies does not make jesus the son of god, there were many prophecies fulfilled by every single prophet that came, doesnt mean theyre all sons of gods. God doesnt have sons or daughters because he is above this human act, we are in need of children but god almighty, does not need any helpers, besides a human being and a god are 2 complete different things.

 

[gazkour]

Assalamo alikom wa rahmato Allah wa barakato

Sister,

I suggest you can mention the videos of brother Ahmet Deedat (may Allah grant him Paradise)where he, mashaAllah, refutes in various debates all about this topic and more. Or you can see them yourself and get the points to answer to your friend.
May Allah give us all such knowledge so we can answer our christian friends with ease and great confidence, enshaAllah!

 

[3abdoullah]

Salam, im just passing by and i have a question for Dianek.
what is the quotes under your messages? is it Coran? Bible? Cause i can't find them in Cor'an. thanks.
salam.

 

[Mohsin]

Assalamu-alaikum !

:salam2:

Dear Sis,
mashaAllah it is great to know about your intentions of helping your friend.
First of all I would like to say that Christians have confused prophesies and miracles when it comes to Jesus.

Us, muslims firmly believe that Jesus was the promissed Messiah of the Bani Israel (Israelites or Jews) and there is no conflict amongst the muslims regarding this fact so there is nothing to prove to us muslims in this regard as we already believe in it. As brother already shown you the verses of the Quran.

There are three different beliefs about Jesus according to three groups of people. I would quote all the three here

The Jewish view of Jesus
Jesus was never accepted, neither as a Prophet nor even as a godly, pious and righteous person by the Jews. They believed him to be a child born out of an adultereous relation, they also believed that he taught sorcery and witchcraft. To them he was a liar and a magician.

The Christian view of Jesus
They believe him to be the son of God, the only begotten son (as they themselves know that the God had already many many sons in the OT prior to Jesus). They believe Jesus to be free of any short-coming and that he is one with God and the Saviour of the humanity. (I dont need to write much about it as you already know the beliefs)

The Islamic view of Jesus
We believe him to be a mesenger of God and the promissed Messiah of the Jews who was sent to the Israelites by God. We believe in the virgin birth and that he did not have a biological father like Adam.
We do not believe him to be a son of God (in the christian sense) as this is simply against the basics of monotheism and is the biggest sin in both Judaism and Islam (i.e. associating partners with God)

I personally believe that back then this 'son of God' title was simply used to notify a person as very close to God, someone who is pious, righteous and guided by God almighty as the OT called many other prophets the sons of God.

Here is an excerpt from wikipedia.

"Sons of God" according to Judaism


In the Old Testament

In the Old Testament, the phrase "son(s) of God" has an unknown meaning: there are a number of later interpretations. Our translation most likely comes from the Septuagint, which uses the phrase "Uioi Tou Theou", "Sons of God", to translate it.[10]

• The Hebrew phrase Benei Elohim, often translated as "sons of God", is seen by some to describe angels or immensely powerful human beings. The notion of the word as describing non-divine beings most likely comes from the Targumic Aramaic translation, which uses the phrases "sons of nobles", "Bnei Ravrevaya" in its translation. See Genesis 6:2-4 and Book of Job 1:6.
• It is used to denote a human judge or ruler (Psalm 82:6, "children of the Most High"; in many passages "gods" and "judges" can seem to be equations). In a more specialized sense, "son of God" is a title applied only to the real king over Israel (II Samuel 7: 14, with reference to King David and those of his descendants who carried on his dynasty; comp. Psalm 89:27, 28).
• Israel as a people is called God's "son", using the singular form (comp. Exodus 4: 22 and Hosea 11:1).

In Judaism the term "son of God" is not used in the sense of the expected "messiah" Psalm 2 refers to Solomon as both God's messiah (an anointed king) and like a son of God.
In the Jewish literature that was not finally accepted as part of the Hebrew Bible, but that many Christians do accept as Scripture (see Deuterocanonical books, there are passages in which the title "son of God" is given to the anointed person or Messiah (see Enoch, 55:2; IV Esdras 7:28-29; 13:32, 37, 52; 14:9). The title belongs also to any one whose piety has placed him in a filial relation to God (see Wisdom 2:13, 16, 18; 5:5, where "the sons of God" are identical with "the saints"; comp. Ecclesiasticus [Sirach] iv. 10).
It has been speculated that it was because of the frequent use of these books by the Early Christians in polemics with Jews, that the Sanhedrin at Yavneh rejected them around AD 80.

I think this exaggeration of the Christians about the position and status of Jesus was a reaction of lovers of Jesus to the absurd claims of the Jews against him.
All the other extreme views such as divinity of Jesus came long after Jesus' accension by God.

Please, visit this section on our forum.

Muslim-Christian Dialogue

You might also like to read the attached article by Ahmad Deedat.

 

[gazkour]

We believe Jesus is the Mesiah!!

Sister, I was actually reading some of the verses you were given and:

-Gen.3:15 & 9:26 have nothing to do with Jesus(PBUH). In the first one is refering to Adamand Eve.The second one is giving blessings to Sem and Canaan.

-Gen.22:18 God is blessing Abraham.
-Gen.26:4 God is blessing Isaac.
-Gen.28:14 God is blessing Jacob
-Gen 49:10 Jacob is blessing one of his sons:Judah
-2 Sam.7:12 God is talking to David about a descendant coming after him:
"He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. I will be a father to him and he will be a son to Me; when he commits iniquity, I will correct him with the rod of men and the strokes of the sons of men, but My lovingkindness will not depart from him..."
Christians say this profesy is not just refering to Solomon but Jesus as well.

-Psalm 2:6-7 "As for me, I have set my King on Zion, my holy hill. I will tell of the decree:The LORD said to me, "You are my Son; today I have begotten you"

-Isaiah 7:14 "Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel"

-Micah 5:2 ""But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,though you are small among the clans of Judah out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel,whose origins are from of old, from ancient times"

-Zechariah 12:10 "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son"

-psalm 22:2 "O my God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,by night,and am not silent.
-psalm 22:17-18 "I can count all my bones;people stare and gloat over me.They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing"
-psalm 34:20 "he protects all his bones, not one of them will be broken"
-Isaiah 53:9 "He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence,nor was any deceit in his mouth"
-Psalm 16:10 "because you will not abandon me to the grave, nor will you let your Holy One see decay"
-Hosea 6:2 "After two days he will revive us; on the third day he will restore us, that we may live in his presence.
-psalm 30:3,9 "O LORD, you brought me up from the grave ;you spared me from going down into the pit" & "What gain is there in my destruction, in my going down into the pit? Will the dust praise you? Will it proclaim your faithfulness? "
-Isaiah 53:10 "Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makes [a] his life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.
-psalm 110:1 "The LORD says to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet."
-psalm 68:18 "When you ascended on high,you led captives in your train;you received gifts from men, even from the rebellious that you, O LORD God, might dwell there.
-prov. 30:4 "Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know!

Basically, you don't have to be a scholar to notice that NONE of the verses declares that Jesus is God! To be the son of God is not the same as to be God!

 

[dianek]

Salam, im just passing by and i have a question for Dianek.
what is the quotes under your messages? is it Coran? Bible? Cause i can't find them in Cor'an. thanks.
salam.

They were quotes she provided from the Bible.

 

[dianek]

My friend emailed me the following article: Please give me a proper response.

A Muslim Looks at
Muhammad and Jesus
The story of Abdul Saleeb and what he
discovered about Islam and Christianity



Email article to a friend

My name is "Abdul Saleeb." I was born and raised in a Muslim country in the Middle East. Even though I lived in a very conservative Muslim society, I grew up in a somewhat of a liberal Muslim family. Furthermore, my Muslim upbringing was unique due to my mother's serious involvement in Islamic sufism. So I can honestly confess that I have had first-hand experience of every aspect of contemporary Islamic movements. I personally did not consider myself very religious. At one point I even turned to Marxist ideologies thinking that they could provide real solutions to my country's social ills. However, throughout all this time I never doubted the fundamentals of my religious faith. I thought of Islam as a faith with such high ideals that I did not consider myself worthy of the name Muslim but I wholeheartedly believed that Islam was God's last and most perfect religion for all mankind, based on God's final revelation, the Qur'an, and the prophet Muhammad, God's seal of prophethood. My view of other religions (especially Judaism and Christianity) was that although they were fundamentally the same since they had all been revealed by one God, they were all inferior to Islam because all of them had to various degrees corrupted the original message of their founding prophets, something that we as Muslims have not done.

My religious views were radically challenged when I left my country because of its civil turmoil and went to Europe for the continuation of my studies. By the providence of God and because of various circumstances, I ended up enrolling in an International Christian School.

A question I once asked my teacher revolutionized my worldview. I asked, "How come your word of God says one thing and our word of God says something different?" My teacher, not knowing much about Islam at all, gently asked, "How do you know the Qur'an is the word of God?" I was taken aback by that response. I had lived in a world in which everyone simply presupposed that the Qur'an was dictated word for word by God to the Prophet Muhammad and no one ever questioned that assumption. That brief encounter forced me to start on a journey, engage my Christian friends in hours of cordial discussion and debate about the truthfulness of the Christian faith.

Christianity and Islam
Like almost any other Muslim, my original reaction to the claims of Christians about Jesus Christ was that of utter shock. These claims not only seemed like plain blasphemy but also quite nonsensical. How could any rational being believe such things about an honored prophet of God? Despite my fundamental theological differences with my friends, there was something about their life and faith that impressed me a great deal. There was a sincerity in their relationship with God and with other people that I had not encountered. So I would often tell them that I did not want to deny their faith but I just wanted to find a compromise so that I could hold to the truth of Islam and they could continue to hold to their faith.

However, I was in no doubt that their belief about Jesus was based on statements that the prophet Jesus had never actually claimed for himself. My difficulty in understanding Christian belief was very much along the lines that have historically separated Islam from Christianity.

I did not grant in any way that the Bible, especially the New Testament documents, were reliable when it came to reporting the words of Christ. Anything in the Bible that disagreed with the Qur'an was automatically rejected as being a corrupt teaching in the Bible.

My spiritual journey went on for months. Oftentimes I did find comfort in the Qur'an, but I was encountering more questions in that book than answers. For example, the violent tone of many of the Qur'anic passages (especially against the unbelievers but also against the Jewish and Christian people) began to bother me, when compared with the emphasis on love in the New Testament. One particular passage that troubled me, especially in light of my good friendship with many Christians, was in Sura 5:51.


"O ye who believe! Take not Jews and Christians for your friends and protectors; they are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily God guideth not a people unjust."

However, the most troubling section of the Qur'an had to do with the character of the prophet Muhammad himself. According to Sura 33:37, God sanctions Muhammad's desire to marry the divorced wife of his own stepson, "in order that (in future) there may be no difficulty to the believers in (the matter of) marriage with the wives of their adopted sons, when the latter have dissolved with the necessary (formality) (their marriage) with them. And God's command must be fulfilled."

I vivdly remember the first time that I came across that verse in my study of the Qur'an. I began to sob with great sorrow and shame. All my life I had been told that Muhammad was the most perfect and ideal moral example for mankind and yet the Qur'an had a good number of examples of how the "revelations" could be so self-serving to the prophet himself!

Christianity or Islam
I immediately wrote a letter to my mother back home with some of these troubling questions that I was encountering. The response that I received to my letter from one of the most prominent religious leaders in my country was that I should just continue my secular studies and not focus too much on religion. On the other hand, as my understanding of the Bible was increasing many of my questions were beginning to get answered. Even as a Muslim I came to believe that the crucifixion of Christ was an undisputable historical fact that no honest person that deals with evidences of history could deny.

The character of Christ himself, as manifested for example in his beautiful Sermon on the Mount, was gradually making a great impression on me. But for me the most impressive factor about Christ was the multitude of Old Testament prophecies about the coming of the Messiah. Some of these prophecies were so specific and they were fulfilled in the life of Jesus to such a detail that it amazed me to see how God had taken hundreds of years of Jewish history to prepare the coming of the Messiah; prophecies ranging from Messiah's ancestery, his manner and place of birth, his life and ministry to the circumstances surrounding his death by crucifixion. I was very attracted to Christ and yet I could not deny my own tradition and past. Becoming Christian seemed a definite betrayal of my own family and Islamic heritage. The tension in my life was so strong that I felt torn asunder between these two faiths.

But I still could not bring myself to accept that Jesus was anything more than a human being. Since he had never explicitly said, "I am God and you must worship me," the Christian claim about Jesus was based on speculation and historically unreliable Gospels. Surely the incredible statements attributed to Jesus were invented by later Christians and put in the mouth of Jesus.

A Muslim Converts
In the midst of all this anxiety of thought, I woke up one morning and was suddenly struck by the meaning of a verse written by the prophet Isaiah in his ninth chapter. I had read this verse several weeks prior to that morning, but I had never understood its meaning. In Isaiah 7:14 we read,


"Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel."

Isaiah then goes on to write in chapter 9,


"[...] in the future he (God) will honor Galilee of the Gentiles, by the way of the sea, along the Jordan the people walking in darkness have seen a great light, on those living in the land of the shadow of death a light has dawned [...] For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne [...] from that time on and forever."

I could not believe it! The fact that the Messiah was not going to be just a prophet but Mighty God himself, was therefore a truth that had been prophesied seven hundred years before Christ in the Old Testament, and not something that had been made up by Christians many years or centuries after Christ! It was God's own promise that he will come in flesh (Immanuel = God with us) and will establish a kingdom that will last forever.

I came to trust in Christ, the next day on January 20, 1985. I cried uncontrollably as I was praying and turning to Christ in faith. I did not know why, and though I had never felt much burden of guilt, I was feeling a great sense of peace and relief from the burden of my sins. A greater satisfaction was the sense of rest in finally finding the truth about God and His revelation of love to mankind in Jesus Christ. A book that helped me (and several other Muslim friends of mine who became Christians around the same time that I did) tremendously in answering many of my questions about the deity of Christ and the reliability of the New Testament documents was Josh McDowell's "Evidence That Demands A Verdict." I highly recommend it.

Soon after my own conversion, I decided to dedicate my entire life to promoting the Good News of Christ among Muslims and especially the people of my own country. I later came to the United States and received my undergraduate and graduate degrees in Biblical and Theological Studies. I also co-authored a book called Answering Islam: The Crescent in the Light of the Cross.

Abdul Saleeb, Ramadan of 1996

 

[gazkour]

It's more than clear that this "abdul saleeb" never really studied neither understood Islam.
As he mentions, he grew up just with a distorted notion of it(sufism). If he was "revolutionized" by just the question :"How do you know the Coran is the word of God" that confirms what I'm saying. any good muslim would know the answer traight away!

I can assure you that "muslims" that have converted to christianity out there, have never been practicing or devout to Islam. They just have been surrounded by it.
However, among the christians converted to Islam, the vast mayoritity, including myself, were devout christians.

I wonder how he can write a book called "Answering Islam:The Crescent in the Light of the Cross" if he doesn't even know nor understand the Coran. He only takes few verses out of context to see what he only wants to see.

What a shame. May Allah guide us all.

I'm sorry sister Dianek, I don't seem to give the proper response, I just hope you find the answer you are looking for. I think it'll be easier for you to refute your friend if you have different approaches and answers to the same question.
I just thought ,by giving the actual verses from the Bible, would be easier to understand that we cannot conclude after reading them that Jesus is God and that many of the verses you were given, don't even have to do anything with the topic.

May Allah guide us all

 

[Optimist]

salam Diane

First I'd recommend that you do not engage in such discussions until you have armed yourself with knowledge. These discussions are pointless for you at this point. They only want to fill your heart with doubt and you are not yet strong enough to face up to them. Sorry to look harsh, but this is recommended by scholars as well.

Now to this little article ... full of nonesense & actually a lie:

1. The guy named himself "Abdul Saleeb" which means :"slave of the CROSS" ... do Christians name themselves that !! I have met Christians with the name "Abdul Maseeh" which means "Slave of Jesus" but not of the cross.

2. He was never a practicing muslim by his own admission.

3. Sufism is a distorted version of Islam.

4. He dated his letter as Ramadan 1996, thus combining Georgian and Hijri calendar. This is just stupid and clearly fabricated. This is the writing of someone who has never used the Hijri calendar before. It looks like the writing of someone who only knows Ramadan amongst all Hijri calendar months because simply it is the most famous one being the month of fasting.

5. No muslim scholar in his right mind would answer in this way to this young man's doubts. This is just ridiculious. Just ask for the name of the scholar and the text of the "fatwa".

6. Where is the Evidence that Jesus is God or son of God (or should God have a son ?). I'm sorry but this claim is soooo thin that they are not even prepared to defend it. Just go and watch Ahamd Deedat's debates. With full respect to all Christians, he wiped the floor with the claim that Jesus is God.

Dear Diane, please seek some knowledge. I appreciate your enthusiasm but you are ahead of yourself.

I pray Allah SWT grant you happiness in this world and the hereafter. Amin.

 

[gazkour]

MashaAllah very good points!

 

[3abdoullah]

Salam brothers and sisters, Dianek, are a muslim?
1) if yes then you shouldnt use anything related to christianism, specially cotes or proverbs.
2) if no than i have nothing to say about that.
But whatever is your response then plz stop creating FITNA with your " oh muslims did this " " muslims did that " " i have a christian freind who said " " oh poor woman killed in pakistan "( u know that in islam women r not supposed to rule) with your stories about muslims converting to other faiths specially christianism.
I know you will say "oh no im a muslim" ok whatever, you will say " you dont know me" but i know ppl like you , so plz cut it.
Now to my brothers and sisters i know that most of you are trying to help and give the best answers but dont follow anyone claiming anything because its a waste of time. If somone really wants the truth, he will never bring stories about fitna like these. Salam from your brother 3abdoullah.

 

[TheHumbleWun]

Salam brothers and sisters, Dianek, are a muslim?
1) if yes then you shouldnt use anything related to christianism, specially cotes or proverbs.
2) if no than i have nothing to say about that.
But whatever is your response then plz stop creating FITNA with your " oh muslims did this " " muslims did that " " i have a christian freind who said " " oh poor woman killed in pakistan "( u know that in islam women r not supposed to rule) with your stories about muslims converting to other faiths specially christianism.
I know you will say "oh no im a muslim" ok whatever, you will say " you dont know me" but i know ppl like you , so plz cut it.
Now to my brothers and sisters i know that most of you are trying to help and give the best answers but dont follow anyone claiming anything because its a waste of time. If somone really wants the truth, he will never bring stories about fitna like these. Salam from your brother 3abdoullah.

Salaam,

With all due respect, people not only get hurt physically (i.e. punching) but by words too. You seem a little harsh on someone that has just recently reverted to Islam. You might not really mean it, but words do affect people. You don't want to bring someone down or make them not want to post again. This is not trial and error, but trial and learn. Let's be a little encourging & supporting with each other. Refer to the writing tone of brother Optimist

 

[Bluegazer]

Assalamu Alaikum sister dianek,


To begin with, I suggest that you acquire more knowledge about Islam. This means that you need to give yourself time to grow.

You also need to read books written by knowledgeable and trustworthy scholars. This forum [TurnToIslam] is helpful, but it does not equal reading the books I mentioned. You also have the fact that some posts might contain wrong information. If you don't have a solid base of information, then how are you going to distinguish the right from the wrong?

I suggest you read the book "The Fundamentals of Tawheed [Islamic Monotheism]" by Dr. Bilal Philips. I know it might take some time, and that your responsibilities towards your family and job might make it difficult, but I cannot overstate how important it is to read this book. Read it at a slow pace, a few pages every day. It explains the most important principle of Islam; the belief in the Oneness of God Almighty, the acts that constitute worship and how to direct these acts to God Almighty alone and to no one else.

If you'd like to own the book, then you can buy it from the following website:

http://islamicbookstore.com/b8935.html

If you'd like to read it as a PDF file, then you can go to the following site and download the book from there for free:

http://www.imanway.com/en/showpost.php?p=15933&postcount=1

Also, please read several posts of mine on pages 2 and 3 of the thread "Is the Bible corrupt". They are as follows:

1- The Qur'an states very clearly that the previous Scriptures were corrupted

2- Do Muslims entirely reject all the previous scriptures?

3- The definition of corruption and other matters regarding the Story of the Adulteress [John 7:53-8:11]

4- The Qur'anic verses concerning the supposed crucifixion of Jesus Christ [peace be upon him]

5- The matter of the Opening Chapter of the Qur'an [Surat al Faatiha]

6- Some of the words of Pope Pius XII and the Preface of certain versions of the Bible

7- The words of a Roman Catholic priest who's also a Biblical scholar

8- Conclusion

http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10927&page=2
http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10927&page=3


I think the points numbered 3, 6 and 7 will be of most benefit to you, although I hope you read all the points. I know they are long, but I hope you'll benefit from them.


Most important of all, please take care to do the following:

1- Pray regularly to Allah the Almighty to safeguard your religion, strengthen your faith and increase your knowledge about His religion.
2- Read a good translation of the meanings of the Qur'an. Take it slowly, and read a few pages every day.


Regards,

Bluegazer

Wassalamu Alaikum

 

[Bawar]

Dear sister dianek assalamu alaikum!

I don't have much knowledge, but i can suggest you two simple things to tell your friend.

1- if salvation is only in accepting that Jesus peace be upon him was the son of God, then what will happen to those people who lived before the birth of Jesus?
Also, isn't it unfair that those people were deprived of the savior (Jesus peace be upon him)?

2- the Christian phylosophy is that God sacrificed his son for our sins. There are some DARK points here about this STRANGE!!!!!!! phylosophy.

Could God not forgive OUR sins without sacrificing HIS son?
And when did we commit sins beofe our birth anyway? It would be unfair that we are held responsible for the sins of Adam and Eve. Even in human court of justice, a son is not charged for the crimes of his father. God is far greater, most just and kind than his creatures.

Also, it shows that God felt compelled to do something about forgiving our sins AS IF HE WAS IN FEAR OF SOMEONE ELSE or compelled by something and accountable to someone.

Why do we have to put God in such a difficult position to have to choose between two unpleasant situations?

Truth is simple and easy to understand and there is no need for phylosophies.
Islam says, Jesus peace be upon him was a prophet like many others before him who all had different miracles.

Moses peace be upon him was a prophet to whom God spoke. When he would display his hand, it would shine like the sun. When he would throw his shaft, it would trun into a monster.

When he hit the nile river wiht his shaft, the river split and the Isralites managed to cross it. When he hit a stone with his shaft, 12 springs of water sprung out of it.....

But no one says he is the son of God. The difference between the two is that Jesus peace be upon him was born without a father AND SO WAS ADAM without a father and mother.

I hope I made my point clear and not more complicated.

Wassalam

 

[gazkour]

For brother 3abdoullah,

It seems you don't know how to deal with a sister in Islam. I think you, brother, were so rude with someone who is trying to learn and help with the best intentions. I would feel very frustrared if every muslim in the world would have such an attitude. Please brother, I don't get it when you say that we shouldn't use anything related to Christianism, not cuotes nor anything. I just don't get it.

 

[Optimist]

Thank you gazkour and TheHumbleWun for your nice words. May Allah fill your heart with joy and satisfaction.

Salam brothers and sisters, Dianek, are a muslim?
1) if yes then you shouldnt use anything related to christianism, specially cotes or proverbs.
2) if no than i have nothing to say about that.
But whatever is your response then plz stop creating FITNA with your " oh muslims did this " " muslims did that " " i have a christian freind who said " " oh poor woman killed in pakistan "( u know that in islam women r not supposed to rule) with your stories about muslims converting to other faiths specially christianism.
I know you will say "oh no im a muslim" ok whatever, you will say " you dont know me" but i know ppl like you , so plz cut it.
Now to my brothers and sisters i know that most of you are trying to help and give the best answers but dont follow anyone claiming anything because its a waste of time. If somone really wants the truth, he will never bring stories about fitna like these. Salam from your brother 3abdoullah.

Bro calm down. Sister Diane means well ... may Allah SWT reward her for her efforts.

WARNING - personal opinion of a non-scholar to follow

Please don't turn this thread into a discussion whether women in Islam should rule or not. Being a ruler in Islam is a burdensome duty, not a privilige. Some scholars are of the opinion that those who WANT to be in position of authority should be denied this for this very particular reason. Most importantly: where is the evidence that if a woman became a ruler she should be killed ? Muslim men should not kill innocents either. We need to get our priorities right.

 

[dianek]

Salam brothers and sisters, Dianek, are a muslim?
1) if yes then you shouldnt use anything related to christianism, specially cotes or proverbs.
2) if no than i have nothing to say about that.
But whatever is your response then plz stop creating FITNA with your " oh muslims did this " " muslims did that " " i have a christian freind who said " " oh poor woman killed in pakistan "( u know that in islam women r not supposed to rule) with your stories about muslims converting to other faiths specially christianism.
I know you will say "oh no im a muslim" ok whatever, you will say " you dont know me" but i know ppl like you , so plz cut it.
Now to my brothers and sisters i know that most of you are trying to help and give the best answers but dont follow anyone claiming anything because its a waste of time. If somone really wants the truth, he will never bring stories about fitna like these. Salam from your brother 3abdoullah.

I don't know what you are talking about. My entire original question was to look to you all for responses to give to my Christian best friend of 20 years. She asked questions and since I am not "educated" enough I turned to the wonderful people here on tti. That story that was posted was an email that she had sent me to see the other side of the fence. I wanted input on how to respond, that's it. Where did I do 'fitna"? Why don't read the whole post and not just bits and peices? None of these were my words but things she presented to me to say "Hey.....if Islam is so good, then why is there these people coming to Christ?"

 

[justoneofmillion]

sister diane you got a great will mashallah

I don't know what you are talking about. My entire original question was to look to you all for responses to give to my Christian best friend of 20 years. She asked questions and since I am not "educated" enough I turned to the wonderful people here on tti. That story that was posted was an email that she had sent me to see the other side of the fence. I wanted input on how to respond, that's it. Where did I do 'fitna"? Why don't read the whole post and not just bits and peices? None of these were my words but things she presented to me to say "Hey.....if Islam is so good, then why is there these people coming to Christ?"

:salam2:here is an answers i had given some time ago here on tti inshallah it will open some percpectiv the person had been kinda rude and a little energetic so ...

hi there,well before you go there i would suggest you to learn about the concept of god in Islam (tawhid)i believe it will humble you at least a bit if you could get a deeper understanding because it seems to me you are looking at us from the summit of the Annapurna when trying to judge scholars of Islam not even knowing the origin of your own scriptures and theology no offence to you i believe these things can be done with respect, sincerity and generosity towards each other as human beings without insult and disregard that is the easy way out!
It is a common concept in some religions that god would elevate a single human being to the status of godhood in fact it is a very ancient belief that precedes the advent of christianity!the same concept exists Hinduism and buddhism,sufism and other similar sects the origin of this trend has it`s roots in what is called mysticism(greek mystery religions) it is defined as the experience of union with god that human beings are in fact a part of god that have become trapped in this world see the old testament Quote "god created this world at his own image"!
What led ancient people to believe that god could become a man is that they couldn`t accept the fact that this world was created from nothing (see Quraan "kun fa yakun"be and it is! be and it is see hawkings..etc also if you wish but that is of less importance right now) and perceived him to be like themselves modifying and transforming from things that already exist that is the essence of human activity!but that would go against logic if we apply this to god himself because you know and i know that the table you have built happened to be pieces of wood and before that it was a tree ok you may have planted the seeds but you didn`t invent the seeds they were already there! and they have been created god hasn`t been created! this kind of thinking is in fact very dangerous and could lead to a certain paranoia of circular thinking in other words god exists because i exist!false god existed before you ever existed that is why he is god the creator, eternal with all his other superlative attributes (the root of atheism),because at the very moment that god becomes a man and the man becomes god ,god stops being god and man stops being man this is very simple no brainer! the same thing exist in christianity,god has a son that happens to be god himself he has got a mother Mary which happens to be his daughter at the same time and in the same way Mary has ancetres called Adam&eve who also happen to be the ancestors of god incarnate so who created who here?! if you follow this logic you will end up saying that it is Adam who created/invented god welcome to the club of atheism this is what gave to the atheist european thinkers and "apostles"like Karl Marx,jean marie voltaire,Nietche,Descartes,Darwin...etc the fruitful platform to the devolepement of their thinking because from the moment that god was to be seen as a simple human projection there were no more limits to the deification of the human being in a political as well as in a social field and that is why Nietch could "kill "god again science couldn`t really kill god but it could kill god in him!it could not literally kill god but it killed god in the hearts and the rest his history... a real sad history because the intended so called illumination and realisation of logic and reason has brought everything but peace and harmony to this world :two world wars , the crimes of communism archipel goulag , Nazism ,racial and the ethnic cleansing holocaust,bosnia the development and proliferation of nuclear and chemical weapons and the saga goes on until this day it has destroyed human values and reduced human beings to the state of animal existence even monkeys are starting to get mad of being compared and resembled to human beings nowadays!...but that`s another subject......
See this is a viscious circle because we humans with all our arrogance and dear ego can simply not understand the infinite! we long for distincitoin and exclusivity but god is just he doesn`t allow access to him in a discriminatory manner!he has set limits for us to know his nature that is why it stinks everytime we get out of the bathroom for example it is just another reminder!every aspect of our existence is limited and finite you say that we are not "slaves" to anything yet we are subjects to time at least in our animal state and we can also be subjects and slaves to ther things but that is a matter of freewill and we shouldn`t really chastise one another on that matter.
with the aknowledgement of my own vulnerability and limited capacity i am proud and feel honored to say that am a slave of allah swt i simply aknowledge the fact that i am dependent of him and of no one else for my life my food my health everything ,my air and the seed of the tree we already mentioned above !he is my one and only protector ,the eternal the infinite the sustainer the uncreated creator the source of all things with all his superlative and not comparative attributes !allahu ahad allahu assamad lam yalid wa lam youled wa lam yakoun lahu koufouan ahad!
god is indeed unique and one if he had created this world from himself (pantheism) he would be like his creatures and if god became a man his own creation it would mean that he created himself that he has a beginning and an end and if he had a beginning and an end it would mean that their was a point where he did not exist how would he create if he did not exist anyways?this contradicts his attribute of eternity
you would say yes but god can do anything!that is right but this doesn`t include things that contradict his divine attributes this is absurd.
you say that god has a son who was god himself incarnate,god`s son later died on cross as a sacrifice for all mankind to god himself! if one asks you why?you would say it is a sign of gods love that he decided to come down to earth because he the all knowing allmighty couldn`t understand and save his creation other than by commiting suicide after incarnating himself praying ,eating,growing crying ,repenting,asking himself for help sometimes, being tempted by the devil promising to bestow his own world to him(matthew 4:1-10)..going to the bathroom ,having emotions like fear,pain,anger ....etc astarfirullah so it takes a human to teach god about his own creation himself who created it doesn`t have the instruction manual! it takes a human to teach god how to forgive to live and behave! in other words god needs to go through a humanization process to be able to understand! well this vanity and chauvinism puts the human being at the center of creation it gives the impression that this earth for example belongs to men and not that the human being is just a part of this world which he has got to respect !what a catastrophic effect this idea had ,has and will have in the future it will lead humanity to it`s own destruction!!! i think Greenpeace would have a word abt that at leeeeeeast!)this idea gives the human being the false impression that no other than himself is able to know what is best for him in his life, social relations and governmental institutions ...etc not even the all knowing god himself! so there is no need for guidelines no need for revelation it becomes something optional one just prays and repents when he is dead sick , sad or in some real big trouble!
please take the time and ponder abt the verses below i would sincerely advice you to learn more about Islam it would reduce a number of your apparent frustration disorientation in your search however the choice is yours

"god" was created from the seed of David:concerning his own son jesus christ our lord which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh(romans1:3)!
"god"was the fruit of the loans of David:therefore being a prophet and knowing that god has sworn with an oath to him,that of the fruit of his loans according to the flesh he would raise up jesus christ to sit on his thrown(acts2:30)!
the ancestors of "god:"so Jesus Christ the son of David the son of Abraham"(matthew1:1)!
the sex of "god"and when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child his name was called Jesus(luke2:21)!
..the melchizedek king of salem,priest of the most high himself without father without mother,without descent having no beginning of days nor end of time( hebrew7:1-3)!
Adam is the son of god(luke3:38)!
Israel is my first born son(exodus 4:22)!
this is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth(matthew21:11)
blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called the sons of god(matthew 5:9)!
Satan is the god of this world(genesis 1-5)uh literally!
in his life on earth Jesus made his prayers and requests with loud cries and tears to god who could save him from death because he was humble and devoted god heard him!(hebrew5:7)
"god"came only for the jews!:but he ansewred and said i am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of israel(matthew 15:24)!
according to "god "the gentiles are dogs! it is not meet to take the children`s bred and cast it to the dogs (matthew15:26)!
"god" on the run:after these these things happened Jesus walked in Galilee for for he could not walk in Jewry because the jews sought to kill him(john 7:1)!
to david:the lord has said unto me,thou art my son,this day have i beggotten thee(psalms 2:7)!
am sure it is not the first time that you are reading these verses and still holding on to the trinity!that the father the son and the holy ghost are one,that they are not three gods but one god in three forms equal in might attributes and power!that the father beggets and is not beggotten ,that the son is beggotten and does not begget and that the holy ghost is the issue between both that only the son died not the father and not holy ghost eventough it is imperative and vital for them to coexist!i will have some more questions for you later inschallah in the mean time a leave you with this god bless
1.what do you guys mean when you say begotten not made?

2.how come the three persons of the trinity are one and equal in might and knowledge but it is only the "father" that knows about the hour and that he (jesus )could do nothing on his ownself?
3. if "jesus" died does that mean that "God and the holy spirit also died !?if so then who "resurrected" jesus?
4.to whom did jesus pray and ask for help?
5.one sentence in the whole bible where jesus says "am god worship me"
6.marry is the mother of god at the same time the mother of jesus and the holy spirit but even the daughter of god! how can she be his mother and his daughter at the same time, and what about Adam and Eve being the ancester of Marry what is their relation in respect to God almighty if she is the mother of god.is Adam his creator may Allah swt forgive me!!!!!!!!!!.do you know why atheism has spread so well in the western countries they say that it is Adam that invented God does it sound familliar by deduction at least hun......................??????????????????????do not confuse god with Oedipus
7.why would god Almighty commit suicide himself to be able to forgive humanity?

8.if you believe that jesus died for your sins who was he meant to be a ransom for God or the devil?
9.if jesus knew his mission was to die for the sins of the world instead of preaching why would he say "eloh eloh lama sabachtani" my god my god why have you forsaken me!) and who was he talking to anyways?
10.who was jesus talking about when he was saying that someone would come after him in deliver the final message and that he would be speaking and repeat what he hears and that he will speak of him (jesus)and guide people to all truth? given the fact that the Holy ghost was there before ,with and after jesus, why did jesus say must leave for that someone to be able to come?

these are just a few questions if you can not answer them ask any learned person to help you do so and explain it to me

please without using the word mystery am waiting?
just a little present may be just want you to be reassured that we are serving some halal for our dear guest to sweeten his tongue there you go

http://www.dailymotion.com/country:gb/tag/myth/video/x1ghzn_jesus-myth-1_music
http://www.dailymotion.com/country:gb/tag/myth/video/x1giea_jesus-myth-2_music

"read !in the name of thy lord who createth,createth man from a clot read and thy lord is bounteous which teaches by the pen,teaches man which he knew not(holy Quraan96:1-5)

wassalam
jameel