surah 2.62: are we People of the Book really Kuffar?

faustobiason

Junior Member
OK, my friends, I am restarting here what I left off in the Introductions forum.

Also to your question that men of the Book are exempt. The People of the Book are only 1 type of Kuffar. There are many types of Kuffar according to Islam just because you are a Christian, Jew or Sabean it doesn't mean you are "believers":

Mushriqs, Hypocrites, Jews, Christians, Sabeans etc. all fall under the categories of Kuffar(Non-Muslims).

5.72.Surely, they have disbelieved who say: "Allah is the Messiah ['Îsa (Jesus)], son of Maryam (Mary)." But the Messiah ['Îsa (Jesus)] said: "O Children of Israel! Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Verily, whosoever sets up partners (in worship) with Allah, then Allah has forbidden Paradise to him, and the Fire will be his abode . And for the Zalimun (polytheists and wrong-doers) there are no helpers.

5.73 Surely, disbelievers are those who said: "Allah is the third of the three (in a Trinity)." But there is no Ilah (god) (none who has the right to be worshipped) but One Ilah (God -Allah). And if they cease not from what they say, verily, a painful torment will befall on the disbelievers among them.

And...

3.19 Truly, the religion with Allah is Islam. Those who were given the Scripture (Jews and Christians) did not differ except, out of mutual jealousy, after knowledge had come to them. And whoever disbelieves in the Ayat (proofs, evidence, verses, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allah, then surely, Allah is Swift in calling to account.

3.20 So if they dispute with you (Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) say: "I have submitted myself to Allah (in Islam), and (so have) those who follow me." And say to those who were given the Scripture (Jews and Christians) and to those who are illiterates (Arab pagans): "Do you (also) submit yourselves (to Allah in Islam)?" If they do, they are rightly guided; but if they turn away, your duty is only to convey the Message; and Allah is All-Seer of (His) slaves .

OK, Salem9022, in the Quran there is also Surah 2.62:

سُوۡرَةُ البَقَرَة
إِنَّ ٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ وَٱلَّذِينَ هَادُواْ وَٱلنَّصَـٰرَىٰ وَٱلصَّـٰبِـِٔينَ مَنۡ ءَامَنَ بِٱللَّهِ وَٱلۡيَوۡمِ ٱلۡأَخِرِ وَعَمِلَ صَـٰلِحً۬ا فَلَهُمۡ أَجۡرُهُمۡ عِندَ رَبِّهِمۡ وَلَا خَوۡفٌ عَلَيۡہِمۡ وَلَا هُمۡ يَحۡزَنُونَ

Al-Baqara
Lo! Those who believe (in that which is revealed unto thee, Muhammad), and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve. (62)

So how do we square up this Surah with the others you have quoted?
 

ShyHijabi

Junior Member
What is the difference between mushrikeen and kuffaar? Are the Jews and Christians mushrikeen or kuffaar?.


Praise be to Allaah.

Firstly:

The kaafir is the one who denies and conceals the truth. The basic meaning of the word kufr in Arabic is concealment. Shirk means devoting worship to anyone or anything other than Allaah.

Kufr may take the form of denying and rejecting, but the mushrik may also believe in Allaah. This is the difference between the mushrik and the kaafir.

Each word may also carry the meaning of the other, so the word kufr may be used in the sense of shirk, and the word shirk may be used in the sense of kufr.

Al-Nawawi (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

Kufr and shirk may carry the same meaning, which is disbelief in Allaah, may He be exalted, or they may be used separately, whereby shirk refers to the worship of idols and other created beings, whilst also acknowledging Allaah, as the kuffaar of Quraysh did, and kufr may have a more general meaning than shirk. End quote.

Sharh Saheeh Muslim. 2/71

Shaykh ‘Abd al-‘Azeez ibn Baaz (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

Kufr is denial and concealment of the truth, such as one who denies that prayer is obligatory, or that zakaah is obligatory, or that fasting Ramadaan is obligatory, or that doing Hajj when one is able to is obligatory, or that honouring one's parents is obligatory, and so on, or one who denies that zina is haraam, or that drinking intoxicants is haraam, or that disobeying one’s parents is haraam, and so on.

Shirk is devoting acts of worship to something or someone other than Allaah, such as one who seeks the help of the dead, those who are absent, the jinn, idols, the stars, and so on, or who offers sacrifices to them, or makes vows to them. A kaafir may be called a mushrik and a mushrik may be called a kaafir, as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And whoever invokes (or worships), besides Allaah, any other ilaah (god), of whom he has no proof; then his reckoning is only with his Lord. Surely, Al‑Kaafiroon (the disbelievers in Allaah and in the Oneness of Allaah, polytheists, pagans, idolaters) will not be successful”
[al-Mu’minoon 23:117]

“Verily, whosoever sets up partners (in worship) with Allaah, then Allaah has forbidden Paradise to him, and the Fire will be his abode”

[al-Maa'idah 5:72]

And Allaah says in Soorat Faatir (interpretation of the meaning):

“Such is Allaah, your Lord; His is the kingdom. And those, whom you invoke or call upon instead of Him, own not even a Qitmeer (the thin membrane over the date stone).

14. If you invoke (or call upon) them, they hear not your call; and if (in case) they were to hear, they could not grant it (your request) to you. And on the Day of Resurrection, they will disown your worshipping them. And none can inform you (O Muhammad) like Him Who is the All‑Knower (of everything)”
[Faatir 35:13-14]

Their calling on anything other than Allaah is called shirk in this soorah, but in Soorat al-Mu’minoon it is called kufr.

Allaah says in Soorat al-Tawbah (interpretation of the meaning):

“They (the disbelievers, the Jews and the Christians) want to extinguish Allaah’s Light (with which Muhammad has been sent — Islamic Monotheism) with their mouths, but Allaah will not allow except that His Light should be perfected even though the Kaafiroon (disbelievers) hate (it).

33. It is He Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam), to make it superior over all religions even though the Mushrikoon (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allaah) hate (it)”

[al-Tawbah 9:32-33]

Here Allaah calls the kuffaar kuffaar, and He calls them mushrikeen. This indicates that a kaafir may be called a mushrik and a mushrik may be called a kaafir. There are many similar verses and ahaadeeth.

Another example is the hadeeth in which the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Between a man and shirk and kufr there stands his giving up prayer.” Narrated by Muslim in his Saheeh from Jaabir ibn ‘Abd-Allaah (may Allaah be pleased with him). And the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The covenant that differentiates us from them is prayer; whoever gives it up is a kaafir.” Narrated by Imam Ahmad, Abu Dawood, al-Tirmidhi, al-Nasaa’i and Ibn Maajah with a saheeh isnaad from Buraydah ibn al-Husayb (may Allaah be pleased with him). And Allaah is the Source of strength. End quote.

Majmoo’ Fataawa al-Shaykh Ibn Baaz, 9/174, 175.

The Shaykh (may Allaah have mercy on him) also said:

It is also shirk to worship only something other than Allaah. This is called shirk, and it is called kufr. Whoever turns away from Allaah altogether and devotes his worship to something other than Allaah, such as trees, rocks, idols, the jinn or some of the dead such as those whom they call awliya’ (“saints”), and worship them, pray to them or fast for them, and forget Allaah altogether, this is the worst form of kufr and shirk. We ask Allaah to keep us safe and sound. Similarly those who deny the existence of Allaah and say that there is no god, that life is only material, such as the communists and atheists, are the most disbelieving and misguided of people, and the worst in terms of shirk. We ask Allaah to keep us safe and sound. The point is that people who hold these and similar beliefs are all regarded as mushrikeen and kaafirs who disbelieve in Allaah. Some people, out of ignorance, mistakenly regard calling upon the dead and seeking their help as waseelah and think that it is permissible. This is a serious error, because this action is one of the worst forms of shirk and associating others with Allaah. Some ignorant people and mushrikeen call it waseelah, but it is the religion of the mushrikeen whom Allaah criticized and condemned. He sent the Messenger and revealed His Books to denounce it and warn against it. End quote.

Majmoo’ Fataawa al-Shaykh Ibn Baaz, 4/32, 33

Secondly:

The Jews and Christians are both kaafirs and mushrikeen. They are kaafirs because they deny the truth and reject it. And they are mushrikeen because they worship someone other than Allaah.

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And the Jews say: ‘Uzair (Ezra) is the son of Allaah, and the Christians say: Messiah is the son of Allaah. That is their saying with their mouths, resembling the saying of those who disbelieved aforetime. Allaah’s Curse be on them, how they are deluded away from the truth!

31. They (Jews and Christians) took their rabbis and their monks to be their lords besides Allaah (by obeying them in things which they made lawful or unlawful according to their own desires without being ordered by Allaah), and (they also took as their Lord) Messiah, son of Maryam (Mary), while they (Jews and Christians) were commanded [in the Tawraat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] to worship none but One Ilaah (God — Allaah) Laa ilaaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He). Praise and glory be to Him (far above is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him)”

[al-Tawbah 9:30, 31]

Here they are described as mushrikeen. In Soorat al-Bayyinah they are described as kaafirs, as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Those who disbelieve from among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) and Al‑Mushrikoon, were not going to leave (their disbelief) until there came to them clear evidence”

[al-Bayyinah 98:1]

Shaykh ‘Abd al-‘Azeez ibn Baaz (may Allaah have mercy on him) said, refuting those who say that the word mushrikeen cannot be applied to the People of the Book:

It is most likely that the people of the Book are included among the mushrikeen, men and women alike, when this word is used in general terms. because the kuffaar are undoubtedly mushrikeen. Hence they are forbidden to enter al-Masjid al-Haraam, because Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“O you who believe (in Allaah’s Oneness and in His Messenger Muhammad)! Verily, the Mushrikoon (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allaah, and in the Message of Muhammad) are Najasun (impure). So let them not come near Al‑Masjid Al-Haraam (at Makkah) after this year”

[al-Tawbah 9:28]

If the People of the Book did not come under the general heading of mushrikeen, then this verse would not apply to them, and Allaah would not have referred to the beliefs of the Jews and Christians in Soorat Baraa’ah (al-Tawbah) where He says (interpretation of the meaning):

“they (Jews and Christians) were commanded [in the Tawraat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] to worship none but One Ilaah (God — Allaah) Laa ilaaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He). Praise and glory be to Him (far above is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him)”

[al-Tawbah 9:31]

So they are all described as mushrikeen, because the Jews said that ‘Uzayr is the son of God and the Christians said that the Messiah is the son of God; and because they took their priests and rabbis as lords instead of Allaah. All of this is the worst form of shirk. And there are many similar verses. End quote.

Majmoo’ Fataawa al-Shaykh Ibn Baaz, 4/274

And Allaah knows best.


Islam Q&A

http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/67626/kuffaar
 
:salam2:

something is lost in the translation.

The word kaafir (means to cover) originates from a word kafarah. which kafarah, is known as to actually take a seed and put it in the ground and bury it.

So farmers can be called kafarah as that is what they do.

now a believer in Islamic monotheism, can fall into the category of a kaafir. If they learn something that the prophet PBUH, has brought forth from Allah, and they don't do it or abstain from it. So for example, muslim eating pork, is doing the act of kufr.

So when Allah, talks about the people of the book, he mentions them as beleiver at times because that is what they had knowledge of that connected them with Allah. But when the last and final messenger came, peace and blessing be upon him, if they didn't accept the last and final message from Allah was then they are kaafir. Meaning they hide or disregard the message.

the word kaafir, kafarah, kufr, are different in meaning when used in a certain context.

explanation that is better than I wrote can be found in this video.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhu9kv7sprY


[yt]uhu9kv7sprY[/yt]

wa Allah ya3lam

:wasalam:
 

arzafar

Junior Member
OK, my friends, I am restarting here what I left off in the Introductions forum.



OK, Salem9022, in the Quran there is also Surah 2.62:

سُوۡرَةُ البَقَرَة
إِنَّ ٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ وَٱلَّذِينَ هَادُواْ وَٱلنَّصَـٰرَىٰ وَٱلصَّـٰبِـِٔينَ مَنۡ ءَامَنَ بِٱللَّهِ وَٱلۡيَوۡمِ ٱلۡأَخِرِ وَعَمِلَ صَـٰلِحً۬ا فَلَهُمۡ أَجۡرُهُمۡ عِندَ رَبِّهِمۡ وَلَا خَوۡفٌ عَلَيۡہِمۡ وَلَا هُمۡ يَحۡزَنُونَ

Al-Baqara
Lo! Those who believe (in that which is revealed unto thee, Muhammad), and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve. (62)

So how do we square up this Surah with the others you have quoted?

i think this verse refers to the true followers of Moses (pbuh) and Jesus (pbuh). The Jews and Christians who followed the true religion all prophets (i.e. islam) and then died before their religion was corrupted by later generations are in fact muslims and not kuffar. and therefore they will be saved from hellfire. However, the bani israel fell into kufr soon after Moses (pbuh) had died then they rejected the messiah and conspired to kill him. Those who believed and followed the messiah are muslims. However, soon enough the true message of jesus was corrupted too and hence Muhammad (pbuh) was sent as the last and final messenger. his still true message is still alive and will remain alive till teh day of judgement! :mashallah:

Conclusion: any 'jews' or 'christians' or 'muslims' or anybody who rejects the quran and sunnah of Muhammad (pbuh) is a kaafir. simple really!

additionally, jews and christians must accept Jesus as the messiah and slave of Allah to become muslims.
 

faustobiason

Junior Member
OK folks, let me make a thing clear.
IT IS SIMPLY MISGUIDED TO BELIEVE THAT CHRISTIANS WORSHIP JESUS.
It is true that there are many christian sects, but I have never heard of any of them that does that.
In fact he said that he was inferior to the angels, and that God alone had to be worshipped.

Take care for now

Fausto
 

faustobiason

Junior Member
Regarding my wife:
she cannot have children, that is why her Imam was not excessively concerned about our marriage; all what this Imam asked me was to allow her to practice Islam without restriction, to make sure that myself and my children (from a previous marriage) respect her faith and to keep pork and alcohol away from our house.
Infact i haven't touched pork and alcohol ever since she came in.

Take care for now

Fausto

PS: just a curiosity: if a Muslim woman is expected to convert her non-Muslim husband to Islam, is she expected to convert also her step-children?
 

faustobiason

Junior Member
i think this verse refers to the true followers of Moses (pbuh) and Jesus (pbuh). The Jews and Christians who followed the true religion all prophets (i.e. islam) and then died before their religion was corrupted by later generations are in fact muslims and not kuffar. and therefore they will be saved from hellfire. However, the bani israel fell into kufr soon after Moses (pbuh) had died then they rejected the messiah and conspired to kill him. Those who believed and followed the messiah are muslims. However, soon enough the true message of jesus was corrupted too and hence Muhammad (pbuh) was sent as the last and final messenger. his still true message is still alive and will remain alive till teh day of judgement! :mashallah:

So surah 2.62 is obsolete and no longer applies, correct?
 

salahdin

Junior Member
I would recommend you to read Tafsir Ibn Kathir this translation of Quran from a scholar with knowledge and better understanding of the HOLY QURAN instead of us giving you our own opinions .lets see verse (62)2:62

بِسۡمِ ٱللهِ ٱلرَّحۡمَـٰنِ ٱلرَّحِيمِ





(62. Verily, those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians (Sabi'in), whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day and does righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.)






Faith and doing Righteous Deeds equals Salvation in all Times






After Allah described the condition - and punishment - of those who defy His commands, fall into His prohibitions and transgress set limits by committing prohibited acts, He stated that the earlier nations who were righteous and obedient received the rewards for their good deeds. This shall be the case, until the Day of Judgment. Therefore, whoever follows the unlettered Messenger and Prophet shall acquire eternal happiness and shall neither fear from what will happen in the future nor become sad for what has been lost in the past. Similarly, Allah said,


[أَلا إِنَّ أَوْلِيَآءَ اللَّهِ لاَ خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلاَ هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ ]


(No doubt! Verily, the Awliya' of Allah, no fear shall come upon them nor shall they grieve) (10:62).


The angels will proclaim to the dying believers, as mentioned,


[إِنَّ الَّذِينَ قَالُواْ رَبُّنَا اللَّهُ ثُمَّ اسْتَقَـمُواْ تَتَنَزَّلُ عَلَيْهِمُ الْمَلَـئِكَةُ أَلاَّ تَخَافُواْ وَلاَ تَحْزَنُواْ وَأَبْشِرُواْ بِالْجَنَّةِ الَّتِى كُنتُمْ تُوعَدُونَ ]


(Verily, those who say: "Our Lord is Allah (alone),'' and then they stand firm, on them the angels will descend (at the time of their death) (saying): "Fear not, nor grieve! But receive the glad tidings of Paradise which you have been promised!''). (41:30)



The Meaning of Mu'min, or Believer






bin Abi Talhah narrated from Ibn `Abbas, about,


[إِنَّ الَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ وَالَّذِينَ هَادُواْ وَالنَّصَـرَى وَالصَّـبِئِينَ مَنْ ءَامَنَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الاٌّخِرِ]


(Verily, those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day) that Allah revealed the following Ayah afterwards,


[وَمَن يَبْتَغِ غَيْرَ الإِسْلَـمِ دِينًا فَلَن يُقْبَلَ مِنْهُ وَهُوَ فِى الاٌّخِرَةِ مِنَ الْخَـسِرِينَ ]


(And whoever seeks religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers) (3:85).


This statement by Ibn `Abbas indicates that Allah does not accept any deed or work from anyone, unless it conforms to the Law of Muhammad that is, after Allah sent Muhammad . Before that, every person who followed the guidance of his own Prophet was on the correct path, following the correct guidance and was saved








[إِنَّ الَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ وَالَّذِينَ هَادُواْ وَالنَّصَـرَى وَالصَّـبِئِينَ مَنْ ءَامَنَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الاٌّخِرِ]


(Verily, those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day) that Allah revealed the following Ayah afterwards,


[وَمَن يَبْتَغِ غَيْرَ الإِسْلَـمِ دِينًا فَلَن يُقْبَلَ مِنْهُ وَهُوَ فِى الاٌّخِرَةِ مِنَ الْخَـسِرِينَ ]


(And whoever seeks religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers) (3:85).


This statement by Ibn `Abbas indicates that Allah does not accept any deed or work from anyone, unless it conforms to the Law of Muhammad that is, after Allah sent Muhammad . Before that, every person who followed the guidance of his own Prophet was on the correct path, following the correct guidance and was saved.





Why the Jews were called `Yahud




The Jews are the followers of Prophet Musa, who used to refer to the Tawrah for judgment. Yahud is a word that means, `repenting', just as Musa said,





why the christians were called nasara





("Who will be my helpers in Allah's cause'' Al-Hawariyyun said: "We are the helpers of Allah.'') (61:14)


It was said that they were called `Nasara', because they inhabited a land called An-Nasirah (Nazareth), as Qatadah, Ibn Jurayj and Ibn `Abbas were reported to have said, Allah knows best. Nasara is certainly plural for Nasran.


When Allah sent Muhammad as the Last and Final Prophet and Messenger to all of the Children of Adam, mankind was required to believe in him, obey him and refrain from what he prohibited them; those who do this are true believers. The Ummah of Muhammad was called `Mu'minin' (believers), because of the depth of their faith and certainty, and because they believe
in all of the previous Prophets and matters of the Unseen.





The Sabi'un or Sabians







The Sabi'un or Sabians


There is a difference of opinion over the identity of the Sabians. Sufyan Ath-Thawri said that Layth bin Abu Sulaym said that Mujahid said that, "The Sabians are between the Majus, the Jews and the Christians. They do not have a specific religion.'' Similar is reported from Ibn Abi Najih. Similar statements were attributed to `Ata' and Sa`id bin Jubayr. They (others) say that the Sabians are a sect among the People of the Book who used to read the Zabur (Psalms), others say that they are a people who worshipped the angels or the stars. It appears that the closest opinion to the truth, and Allah knows best, is Mujahid's statement and those who agree with him like Wahb bin Munabbih, that the Sabians are neither Jews nor Christians nor Majus nor polytheists. Rather, they did not have a specific religion that they followed and enforced, because they remained living according to their Fitrah (instinctual nature). This is why the idolators used to call whoever embraced Islam a `Sabi', meaning, that he abandoned all religions that existed on the earth. Some scholars stated that the Sabians are those who never received a message by any Prophet. And Allah knows best.
 

arzafar

Junior Member
mashallah brother Saladin has explained it very nicely what i was trying to say.
All the people who are born after the advent of islam must follow it as their religion to be successful because it's the only true religion.
 

weakslave

Junior Member
OK folks, let me make a thing clear.
IT IS SIMPLY MISGUIDED TO BELIEVE THAT CHRISTIANS WORSHIP JESUS.
It is true that there are many christian sects, but I have never heard of any of them that does that.
In fact he said that he was inferior to the angels, and that God alone had to be worshipped.

Take care for now

Fausto

That's interesting. I am not sure where you learned Chrisitianity, but every Christian I have ever spoken to believes that Jesus is the son of God, and they always ask of Jesus. Others even worship Mary. Others have the trinity (Jesus, Mary, The Holy Spirit).

Actually if you look at the issue in detail, not only do Christians worship Jesus or Mary, but they also worship their priests/popes. The reason for this is Christians listen to the commands of their priests. They forbid, and they allow without evidence and without reason. In Islaam, no one has that authority without evidence from the Holy Quraan or authentic Ahadeeth :)
 

ShyHijabi

Junior Member
OK folks, let me make a thing clear.
IT IS SIMPLY MISGUIDED TO BELIEVE THAT CHRISTIANS WORSHIP JESUS.
It is true that there are many christian sects, but I have never heard of any of them that does that.
In fact he said that he was inferior to the angels, and that God alone had to be worshipped.

Take care for now

Fausto

You may want to go read the Nicean creed which states that Christians must beliave in the trinity, which basically state there is God in three persons. (father, son, holy ghost) And that the pillar of Christianity that Jesus (peace be upon him) is both son of God and also God in carnate. (God in the flesh) The Nicean creed is basically the agreed upon creed of all who call themselves Christian, Catholic or Protestant.

I think that you are not very versed in the history of the Christian beliefs or that you are unaware of even how the idea of the trinity evolved. Read up on the Nicean creed, it is a basic belief that Jesus (Peace be upon him) was a god-in-carnate and also a person of worship. I have been to multiple Christian churches of varying denominations and they all worship Jesus. They pray to him, bow to his statue/crucifix, and beseech blessing through him.

So surah 2.62 is obsolete and no longer applies, correct?
No, there is not obsolete part oft he Quran, go back and read the interpretation of the Arabic words in the fatwa I posted.

It is not pertinant that your wife is barren, a Muslim female is not permitted to marry a non-Muslim in Islam. Full stop. I dont know what imam you spoke to but the scholars are unanimously agreed upon this fact. In the Prophet's time women were automatically divorced from their non-Muslim husbands until/unless their husbands converted. If he had children from an earlier marriage she was not responsible for their spiritual guidance, that is the responsibility of their biological parents. While you "worked around" the ruling by getting married via legal means, your marriage is invalid according to Shariah law.
 

faustobiason

Junior Member
All right, dear friends, thanks for your answers.
Now i am going ot open other threads on related subjects, pls
bear with me.

Fausto
 

DanyalSAC

Junior Member
That's interesting. I am not sure where you learned Chrisitianity, but every Christian I have ever spoken to believes that Jesus is the son of God, and they always ask of Jesus. Others even worship Mary. Others have the trinity (Jesus, Mary, The Holy Spirit).

Actually if you look at the issue in detail, not only do Christians worship Jesus or Mary, but they also worship their priests/popes. The reason for this is Christians listen to the commands of their priests. They forbid, and they allow without evidence and without reason. In Islaam, no one has that authority without evidence from the Holy Quraan or authentic Ahadeeth :)

Sorry but as an ex-Catholic I have to correct a few misconceptions right here: The Trinity as put forth by the original Christian church (the Catholic church) is the Father (God), the Son (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit, Mary doesn't appear in there. She is honored, venerated, and prayed to (for intercession) but not worshipped by them. Also, the Catholic dogma is that the Pope is essentially God's spokesman on earth so anything he says ex cathedra ("from the throne" ie from his position as Pope, not as a man) is considered to be from God and therefore infalible. But he himself is not worshipped.
 

faustobiason

Junior Member
Sorry but as an ex-Catholic I have to correct a few misconceptions right here: The Trinity as put forth by the original Christian church (the Catholic church) is the Father (God), the Son (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit, Mary doesn't appear in there. She is honored, venerated, and prayed to (for intercession) but not worshipped by them. Also, the Catholic dogma is that the Pope is essentially God's spokesman on earth so anything he says ex cathedra ("from the throne" ie from his position as Pope, not as a man) is considered to be from God and therefore infalible. But he himself is not worshipped.

A bit more explanation is needed here, I will come back on this issue as soon as time permits.
 

weakslave

Junior Member
Jazaka Allaahu Khairan for your corrections. Now I have a correction for you :)

Also, the Catholic dogma is that the Pope is essentially God's spokesman on earth so anything he says ex cathedra ("from the throne" ie from his position as Pope, not as a man) is considered to be from God and therefore infalible. But he himself is not worshipped.

[The Jews and Christians] have taken their scholars and monks as lords besides Allah, and [also] the Messiah, the son of Mary. And they were not commanded except to worship one God; there is no deity except Him. Exalted is He above whatever they associate with Him. {9:31}

That is the definition of a lord: the one who allows and the one who forbids.

Meaning that while they do not declare that they worship the Pope, except that their actions show this to be the case, as Allaah swt mentions. There is also a hadith from the Prophet :saw: on this very issue that clarifies it even more but I was unable to locate it.
 

a_stranger

Junior Member
:salam2:
I think that Islam teaches man how to direct his heart to his one creator with purity and sincerity this what the shaytan tries hard not to be by false cocepts like trinty or any other kind of shirk .......those people who followed the prophets at their times (who followed the pure monmtheisim) were on the right path which Islam was revealed to show it again ( this what Quran makes clear) and Allah sobhanahu wa taala knows best.
 

rayray

Junior Member
Muslims who blindly follow a scholar border on the shirk described in 9:31.

May God purify our thoughts and beliefs and not allow Satan to infuse shirk, however subtle, into our hearts.

From my understanding, scholars are the ones who have studied... study? the Quran. They also interpret the Quran. They examine modern phenomena such as, for example, the internet, see its implications and give their analysis . "Would doing so and so go against what Allah decreed?" They quote hadiths, say if a deed is haram or halal... and etc. However scholars are just humans. They are not infallible. Like us, they use reasoning to interpret and analyze...and, whoever said that their reasoning is better than the next?

If we disagree with a scholar's reasoning, we can. If through our own careful analysis we find an act isn't haram, despite what's otherwise said, then it isn't....right?
 

rayray

Junior Member
It's not that simple. Scholars cannot say something is halaal or haraam, they can only say that their analysis leads them to that opinion. We can take it or leave it, but if we take it just because they said it, we risk being blind followers (muqallidoon). If we do not take it, we risk being followers of our own desires (ahwaa'). It may be that we just don't like what they said and that's why we decided not to follow it. That's not a good excuse. The key differentiator is the evidence (Daleel) and arguments (Ijtihaad) the scholar used to arrive at his conclusions and whether these are valid and sound. If alternative, equal or stronger evidence and arguments can be furnished, the obligation to follow the first scholar is relieved.

It is a matter of honesty with oneself and caution (Wara`) not to take either extreme: blind following (taqleed) or desire (hawa). It's a tight rope to walk on, but we must. Taqleed is what lead most Christians, Jews, Hindus, etc., to follow their traditions even when they do not understand them. And Hawa is what lead secular and materialist people indulge in whatever they can rationalize for themselves.

I see. But so if one finds stronger evidence, and has better arguments... they can disagree?
 

faustobiason

Junior Member
Sorry but as an ex-Catholic I have to correct a few misconceptions right here: The Trinity as put forth by the original Christian church (the Catholic church) is the Father (God), the Son (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit, Mary doesn't appear in there. She is honored, venerated, and prayed to (for intercession) but not worshipped by them. Also, the Catholic dogma is that the Pope is essentially God's spokesman on earth so anything he says ex cathedra ("from the throne" ie from his position as Pope, not as a man) is considered to be from God and therefore infalible. But he himself is not worshipped.

I am an ex-Catholic too.

Now I attend a number of Christian Fellowships which believe that
- alcohol has no place in society and drinking alcohol IS A SIN, apart from the social consequences that we all see (and this helped me score points with my wife);
- the trinity is a very messy concept created by the Roman Catholic Church in which supposedly God Almighty is one and three at the same time.
- these Fellowships believe that you worship God alone, but through Jesus, NOT in the sense that you worship Jesus but in the sense that you ask him for intercession, since he is supposedly the Gateway to God.
The Holy Spirit is God's active force, but NOT a third person to be worshipped separately from God.
Therefore with these Fellowships you worship God alone, although through Jesus, so technically and Islamically speaking you are not really committing shirk, are you?

(and regarding that Quranic verse warning against those who consider God as the third of three, I don't frankly know who these people are, since even the messy trinity dogma by the Catholic Church states that God is one and three at the same time, but NOT one of three, and surely NOT the third of three.)

Regarding the Pope: his sole reeson to exist is to maintain doctrinal integrity, in order to keep weird or extremist doctrines (remember the notorious bishop Marcel Lefevre?) out of the Catholic Church, and that is why on doctrinal matters he is regarded as infallible, just like the Shias believe that the Twelve Imams were doctrinally infallible.
So, UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCE IS THE POPE TO BE WORSHIPPED.
Also, a TOTALLY WRONG practice by the Catholic Church is the one of believing that you can pray Mary and the Saints for intercession, but it is wrong to believe that you can worship either.
Priests are there for spuiritual guidance, pretty much like the Imams in the Muslim world, so no real difference here.

If I have made any mistakes, pls correct me

Kind regards

Fausto
 
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